Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by steamcat, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. WarriusZero

    WarriusZero

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    Too lazy to check if it's been mentioned in one of the numerous pages here, but the issue PD is probably going to have is related to real cars using fake sounds... They would have to patch their realistic sound engine with audio samples...

    Is this a fair supposition?
     
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  2. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    It is good enough to portray differences in any engine configuration, firing order, manifold configuration, thermodynamic cycle, aspiration type, gas exchange timing and method (valves, ports etc.), fuel and so on.

    What's unclear is the range of timbres available, particularly as it pertains to silencing: open pipes, pea shooters, restrictor plates, air cooled, Diesels etc. The LFA may be a real challenge. It works for laser propulsion, though. :p

    At the moment, everything is very raspy, partially to cover up missing sources. In theory, there is nothing to stop that full range of real sounds being synthesised, but doing it cheaply in real time is another matter. Finding a universal simplified method for all the engine types and tuning / silencing states is also a challenge.

    Good post. :tup:
    They have filter options already, although I can't quite tell how they're used. You should be able to do a lot with the basic open pipe sound already, and I'd love to tweak the settings myself.

    A lot of the settings are the same between cars - I suspected from the start that they were custom, temporary tunings. This apparently minimal modification from car to car, plus a lot of missing / null values, more or less confirms that. The upshot is that it's like putting the exact same exhaust pipe on each of the otherwise quite different cars.

    The particular harmonic signature of the distortion technique used in the pipe rasp effect dominates where that effect dominates, which is at high rpm, full throttle. So that also results in a certain sameyness, much like the distortion in FM3/4 did. The rasp can be toned down once other sources are introduced. :)
     
  3. Harsk100

    Harsk100

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    The fact using the fake sounds for real cars is unfair. But PD has said that major updates regarding to sounds are coming in future updates of GT6.
     
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  4. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    You think the Ralt is close to the real thing?:lol:
     
  5. Harsk100

    Harsk100

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    Yes, it is.

     
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  6. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Unfortunately, he said the converse: there will be no major update to sound in GT6 (that will have to wait for PS4 / GT7). So that means the 1.14 sound update wasn't major.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
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  7. Harsk100

    Harsk100

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    What a shame... :tdown:
     
  8. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    Where? I saw they said the opposite and that no major sound update would come to GT6 in the Q&A, however they delivered some sound improvements anyways. It wasn't IMO a Major update, more like a small improvement that made a good difference. Did they change the position and said they planned a major sound update for GT6?
     
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  9. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    The Ralt, like just about every other car in GT, completely lacks just about all the subtle character that makes cars come alive. From intake sounds, to off throttle to downshifting and upshifting etc. etc. etc. it's completely clinical and pure which real cars on the track are not. It doesn't sound even close to a real car in the game. The sample is better than a typical GT car, but it's nowhere near close to sounding convincingly like a real race car. As Kaz himself has said, "it's too perfect".

    I have no doubts this will improve in GT7 but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that because sound a little better than they used to, that somehow means they sound realistic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
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  10. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    Are you 2 talking about the same car?

    The Ralt has incredible off throttle throatyness, It responds to load and throttle position, it has incredible raspyness and One of the best sounding cars in GT6, its just the X1 Jr note but doesn't bother me one bit. I just dont understand your comment as I blast around Brands Hatch in my Ralt with the surround sound up, I just love it.

    The only thing I can think of is either a cheap sound system or none at all? Maybe not set up right or something?

     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
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  11. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    The sound system is not an issue for me. Like I said, it's a step in the right direction, I can hear what they are trying to do, but it still sounds clinical and pure to me, it lacks character and personality. It sounds like an electronically created sound not a real engine, which is the goal IMO.
     
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  12. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    I do not agree with your statement aside from it being an improvement. I am glad to hear the things in the car sound I never heard as well done in GT. The way the sound reacts to off throttle and load is in my opinion excellent and no way as you make it out to be, clinical and pure (not even sure what that means) but you make it sound bad. Clinically Awesome and Pure Bliss, that's more like it. I don't even know what it means but it sounds cool. The car has a lot more character then any of the non AES cars that's for sure. Its odd how the exact things they improved upon you see negatively, its weird to me.

    Sorry you comment just seemed very negative even when giving praise sorta. I wonder is there anything in GT6 you really like?
     
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  13. Johnnypenso

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    How is it negative when I said it's better and improved, just not realistic just yet? I can see things from many sides I'm not a one dimensional human being who thinks if something is good or better than it was, that we mustn't say anything negative about it.

    I'm happy you enjoy the sound and if you think it sounds like a real race car that's great. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    Lots of discussion on this car in the sound thread starting around here for reference. Pretty much the same thing as I'm saying even from the experts in sound, it's better, just not quite there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
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  14. Lewis_Hamilton_

    Lewis_Hamilton_

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    I think basically what Johnny is saying is: Sounds good =/= Sounds realisitic.

    If you drive for a while in the F3 in GT6, you get used to it and it does sound "good" or acceptable, but then play the real life video above, listen to that for a minute and then play the GT6 video again, and it sounds very synthesized and a lot is missing.

    I'm going through the same problem doing the sound for a car in another game. I'll spend a while listening to many, many clips of the real life car, then go into the sound editing program and try and recreate that sound for in the other game. After some time tweaking around and testing on the virtual track, I'll think "Yeah, that sounds right". Then I'll exit, play back the real life clips and then go back to the sounds of the car I'm doing and it still sounds computerised, even if it's doing all the right things at the right times in the right places.

    At which point I give up and come back to it another day :sly:
     
  15. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    That's kind of surprising! The Junior uses the exact same tuning, it's the same file. Shows the influence that control has.

    What's missing are the extra sources, namely intake (subdued, light and crunchy here due to the combination of restrictor plus mild two-valve tuning), engine (thrashy) and all that structural noise from the engine vibrations transmitted into the chassis (hard edged, but thrummy).

    PD will tackle all of that on PS4. Wish them success. :D
     
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  16. FOSSILMOTO

    FOSSILMOTO

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    GT1 through 6 were the only games I'd ever played until about 3 months ago. Now after playing Game Stock Car I understand all the complaints about the sounds... Night and day difference.
     
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  17. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    I really don't think any video game will ever sound like a real race car, none do, none are even close. I like how it sounds, especially compared to any car that does not have AES sound. I don't expect it ever in any game to sound like its real and not a video game / sim sound. That's an unrealistic standard in my personal opinion.

    Some sound like VIDEOS of real race cars, but nothing like the REAL car in person.

    The improvement from the old clip system to AES is a HUGE improvement and ADDS the things you complain are lacking, like "off throttle to downshifting and upshifting etc" as if they tried and failed but not specific like that. The sounds have been much much improved in those respects along with more throaty and raspy, all big improvements.

    So while we are talking about things that have been made much much better you say it in a way that's almost as if its a bad thing. Like "yeah they are trying to improve it, but its still not good for X Y Z reasons", and those X Y Z reasons are not really correct (not all of them fully) Like a lack of off throttle or shifting sounds when the both of them have been added with AES vs the old flat sound clip system that was not impacted by throttle position or load when the AES system clearly is, and the must sound real standard is a unrealistic standard.

    I just said it SOUNDS negative while sorta giving praise, this confused me, and I don't understand you saying it lacks the off throttle sounds etc as those exact things have been added with the exception of intake noise but aside from turbos I don't think any car has intake noise.

    Im curious about what in GT6 you like based on how you give praise to improvements, but that's just to satisfy my curiosity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2015
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  18. Lewis_Hamilton_

    Lewis_Hamilton_

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    I don't know about that. R3E gets pretty close and improvements will always be made over the years.



     
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  19. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    :tup::tup: The idea that is hard to convey to anyone who is mostly accustomed to GT sounds is how immersive it is when all the sound/FFB/visual all work together. If you downshift too early and lock up the rears you get the gear grinding noise and you also feel it through the wheel. When you go over bumps and hear the cockpit rattle, you feel it through the wheel and see it on the screen. It's not just the sounds themselves which are better (and which sound much better in full surround vs. YT stereo)it's how everything works together to create immersiveness. It only takes one of them to be off to make it feel more like a game and to feel disconnected from it. Hopefully PD can makes some strides in this area for GT7.
     
  20. scholesy1899

    scholesy1899

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    That's what @Johnnypenso's getting at @PR3D4TOR, look at the R3E vids.

    The violent! Organic! Shuddering! Gear change inherent to race cars (the camera helps but we used to have that aswell), the squeaks and creaks from the transmission and chassis etc. etc. etc.

    Even with improved sound I can't see PD 'dirtying' it up as much as this ever.

    Plus all cars have some kind of top notch auto tiptronic going on ala McLaren P1.
     
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  21. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The AES cars have varying off throttle ability, the Subaru being the best. The extra controls they added for that one car are so powerful. What most people don't realise is that harmony they seem to celebrate elsewhere could be an order of magnitude better if it didn't rely on naive blending of fixed content.

    As for intake sound, just as the exhaust sound is mostly the result of pressure escaping the cylinder into the atmosphere, the intake has pressure escaping the atmosphere into the cylinder. :p

    It's really NA cars that have the most evocative induction noise, mostly because the volume is directly proportional to the throttle position, unlike exhaust (or boost, for that matter).



    But it's still important for turbo cars:
     
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  22. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    Yeah, but the video doesn't relay how the car sounds when you actually sit in it. The videos of the actual cars doesn't do justice to the audio of the actual cars even if the audio sounds great, like Griffith500's videos, they sound GREAT, just not as good as sitting in the actual car. My point is they will never get that "Real" sound as if I'm there in the car, and since it is a video game the sound has to be dynamical and not a straight forward recording what we can hope to get is improvements making the sound better, Its always going to have a programmed aspect to it because it is programmed, the engine dynamics will have to get much more crazy before the sound can. Im talking about temp humidity oil pressure air density, and a lot more, taking into account timing valve duration and so much more. Even then its still programmed and not real.

    Ive still not heard a game that makes me think Im hearing anything other than a video game.

    I would not expect a night and day change in GT6, but its nice to see the level of improvement and improvement is improvement as long as they are stepping in the right directions it shouldn't be regarded as a bad thing. I point out the things you mention not being present are in fact present and so it must be that you are not satisfied with the improvement, Okay that's a matter of opinion, I cant argue with your opinion, but those aspects were added and are present in the Ralt as a matter of fact, its too bad your not satisfied with the improved sounds, but I am, and I very much like the direction it has gone with the Visiv and LM55, both sound great for a video game in my opinion, if I want to hear real race cars, Ill head out to the real race track. I cant get mad at GT6 for being what it is, a video game.

    My curiosity @Johnnypenso is what about the game do you like, so I can see some contrast. I tried looking through your activity, but I could not find anything you had anything positive to say about in GT6, so Im hoping you can point me to it, but if you prefer I don't so be it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
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  23. CLowndes888

    CLowndes888

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    The sound of the Ferrari Enzo is quite accurate on GT5 PSP, but it has the sample of a V8 on GT5 PS3 and GT6, which not realistic.
     
  24. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Found another intake vid.


    Compare exhaust, and interior.

    Despite the louder exhaust, the intake sound is still prominent in the cabin.
    (Ignore different models, not significant.)

    Intake's super important. :dopey:

    Regarding that sense of "being there", you'll never get that with recordings (in a game), partly because ears don't work like microphones, but mostly because recordings are fixed. You could do fairly well with binaural recordings, but they're still fixed, and only work for people with similar head and ear size / shape as the "dummy" used. They only work with headphones, too, and that means they're quick to "break" if you look around (HMDs).

    You need to (at least approximately) simulate acoustic transfer. PD are the only (car game?) developers I know of who are doing that, and have been doing since GT5P. Of course, it helps little when you use awful samples, but it's there waiting nonetheless.

    "Acoustic transfer" is tricky to remove from recordings, in order that you may apply your own according to the situation in the game, so it will be the almost sole domain of generated sound if it's true power is to be realised.
     
  25. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    We agree to disagree..or at least I do:lol:

    If you want to know my general posting demeanour, then "follow" me and keep track of my posts. If you see something you disagree with then challenge it. Everyone is welcome to do so.
     
  26. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    You sound like you really know what you're talking about when it comes to sound.

    I didn't get everything you spoke about because I don't know as much as you in regards to audio, but I made out there is always going to be that understandable divide and I agree with that, that's what I'm talking about.

    Im also liking the direction of GT sounds and from what I can make out your saying GT is bringing new dimension to video game sounds with attempting to add more dynamics than have been used before and by others. Saying its going back to GT5P suggest they didn't quite get it at first but the evolution has brought them to GT6 AES & Thats a good thing BUT there is still a lack of intake audio that would be a welcomed inclusion. If Im right I can agree with that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
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  27. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    Sorry DUPPED the post

    @Johnnypenso, Im cool with agreeing to disagree, I though that was a given

    Aside from that I just want to know about something in GT6 you like, not your general demeanor.
     
  28. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Thanks, I've had a go at this sort of thing, so I'm quite excited at the prospect of a mainstream game adopting such a risky strategy!

    GT5P was the first GT game to get a "sound simulation" credit, and it was mostly to do with how the sounds we're mixed, processed, filtered etc. according to the physical principles that govern the real thing. There was a bit of physically correct synthesis going on, too. AES is more like a continuation of that approach, another piece of the jigsaw.

    Acoustic transfer is all about how structural vibrations "transfer" to the air (where vibrations are called "acoustic"). I use it more generally to mean mapping the 3D propagation of sounds from complex sources, be they structural, acoustic, whatever.

    Most games use monopole sources, the simplest imaginable kind (perfect spherical radiation pattern), and theoretically impossible: unphysical. They work well with mono recordings, because they add no extra colouration, which would otherwise clash with the colouration already in the recording. That colouration comes from the mic placement (and its type etc.) relative to sound sources and the environment, i.e. where it sits in the resulting (real) 3D sound field and its hugely complex interference patterns.

    Codemasters use a mixing method that captures the virtual 3D sound field at the listener's location, but only if that sound field had been created by monopole sources. It's better than the unphysical "panning" in the usual multichannel mixes, but the transfer is still more important because it yields more realistic interference patterns at the listener, which would be obvious even in a mono mix down.

    Generated sounds don't have any colouration, so the use of more complex source models does not reduce the quality; in fact it is absolutely necessary to guarantee quality! :)
     
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  29. PR3D4TOR

    PR3D4TOR (Banned)

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    Okay so your saying PD is attempting to simulate the engines sounds on a broader scale versus straight playback recording simplistic style. I can dig that. Those RE3 videos are as annoying as Shift2 IMO, yeah they have transmission noise but that is some synthetic sound the way its done. The entire Audi run lacks what I call character the AES systems is beginning to add to GT6. I get the most from The Visiv personally, you can hear everything in the sound so precisely from throttle position to engine load its such a big improvement IMO I cant wait to see how AES evolves in GT7 as Im sure the big things will come in GT7, intake, transmission sounds and all of that good stuff GT6 still has a lot of room for improvement.

    That is very interesting because I think the physics system takes the same approach, they uses real world specs in a simulated environment and the 2 don't always mix as well as we would hope. Glitches get exploited and details are unclear, but they keep getting it better and better I hope they keep working on the same formula. Like instead of calibrating the cars top speed to a recorded run of the car, they plug in the hp, coefficient of drag, frontal area and let the simulation do the rest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
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  30. scholesy1899

    scholesy1899

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    I totally agree the human ear will always be able to pick up man made, and we will all never be totally fooled that we're not playing a game.

    I've personally sat at the feet of @Griffith500 through many a post and he has unraveled the mystery for me of what PD are trying to do, which you're referring to as AES, and I'm waiting with baited breath of what will come out the other end....fingers crossed GT7.

    Yes, on the test mule cars there is great expression, off throttle wow wee! And Kaz might say they made them "too perfect" but I still can't see PD ever introducing the extra bits that.....even though looped sample style, R3E does so well presently, to add more immersion to their game.

    Guess I'm getting away from just engine sounds, but I can't see ever feeling like I'm sat in a stripped out bare metal roll caged racer within a GT game.

    Don't get me wrong I'm a total GT fan (GTplanet can make you jaded though) but can the next VGT or real DLC car:lol: come with intake sound, no straight pipe and less raspiness? I'll probably be back to day one release with GT7 if they do, rather than the wait for review camp I'm currently bivouac'd in.
     
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