Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by steamcat, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Earth

    Earth

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    7,846
    My ears...

    It's obvious they just change the pitch of the sound to simulate the RPM change

    I've looked through the sound files of many PC games through the years, and all of them always had the following sound samples

    • Idle
    • Low Rev
    • Med Rev
    • High Rev

    Apparently GT only has

    • Idle
    • "Cruise"
    • Wide Open Throttle

    Makes you wonder. I think Corvette Conquer posted a video grab of credits showing there were only 3 people responsible for sound in Gran Turismo. This is out of a staff of 140+.

    I wonder if Kaz understands the graphics have gone overkill and its time to fix the sound
     
  2. CorvetteConquer

    CorvetteConquer

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    Yea, in the credits, only 3 people were designated for sound. 1 lead sound engineer + 2 sound "simulators".

    The video again.
    Pause at 0:45



    Masao Kimura- Lead sound engineer. I wonder if that's who was in the recent Veloster Turbo picture...hm!
     
  3. DeeJay574

    DeeJay574

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    Recording sounds on a running and breaking Dyno is not the best way.
    BTW, maybe we hear the screaming of the Dyno in GT5 (Vacuum)?

    Why not record the sound like here? Skip to 1:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vspbymhaLEg

    This is how a M3 should sound!
     
  4. Speedster7

    Speedster7

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    Couldn't agree more! I also think they should add in loud backfire noises and turbo waste gate flapping. You should be frightened by your car!
     
  5. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    8,634
    And there is no evidence to suggest that clipping, of all things, is what is causing GT's sound problems!
    Making a good sound loop isn't really about being taught, anyway; anyone who's tried it knows exactly what I mean. You can read about how to do it, someone can even show you, but each loop is different, so you have to learn how to tackle them for yourself in the end. It's not "difficult" per se, just a pain in the arse.

    The correct "Michael Bay" analogy would be that he shoots a scene without making sure everyone who's supposed to be in it, are actually in it. Maybe he does that, I don't know, but it's as fundamental an error there is.
    Or maybe they're working on something else, and the recycled GT2 samples are just a stopgap.
    It's fine to poke fun; just don't expect not to have the favour returned. ;)
    If you're referring to the robotic shift speed, that's a gameplay balance (vs. wheel users with H-patterns) and physics (clutch, drivetrain) plus control (button shifts) issue. There are numerous ways it could be improved; namely setting shift speed according to how hard or fast you hit the button, or adding a clutch button.

    It is not, in itself, a sound issue.
    The cars, in GT5 at least, seem to have idle sounds, plus low speed and high speed sounds for exhaust and "engine". That's 5 samples per car.

    The real quality issue is that the samples are fairly short, and that there are only two rpm-sample points. Sample-based synthesis relies on pitch-bending to fill in the gaps between samples; all games do it. Obviously the effect is improved with more samples, but you have to put them somewhere, i.e. in memory. Interestingly, GT's pitching effect is superior to most games; it's just the samples are too short, so they sound thin when they are pitched. GPL, and iRacing as a result, have similarly superior pitching for apparently the same reasons, and GPL only uses one sample.

    A possible "fix" would be to remove the separate engine sound (since it's inaccurate anyway, given its lack of intake noise) and use the extra memory to add another sample point and increase the sample length slightly. This would be closer to Forza's sampling system (single source.)
    I'd personally prefer it if they kept the separate sources, but added intake to the "engine" sound. It'd make a massive difference in most cases.
    That is actually potentially very exciting, although I should probably keep my enthusiasm in check for now.
    That video is full of road noise; it's no different to recording on a dyno. The only real benefit (potentially) is the lack of early reflections, but they can be pulled out of the recording with the right attention. (And in fact, I think I might have just figured out what that wire on the car's bumper was for).

    Interestingly, Forza doesn't suffer with dyno noise in its samples, does it? Yet they made prolific use of them for recording.
     
  6. mikecustom

    mikecustom (Banned)

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    I think he's refering that there's no pause when changing gears, in Shift 2, even when using a DS3, the gears are not changed instantly, the game actually does the full animation of the driver changing gear and then you can hear the new gear, it also changes from car to car, the mclaren f1 has like the longest pause from all cars in that game, and the Zonda R has the shortest (almost any) but still doesn't feel linear like GT5 does because there's power dropping everytime you change gear, plus in shift you can hear gear clicks in manual cars, brake whine, suspension working and random objects from the road hitting the body.

    It's not an issue, it's not even there.
     
  7. DeeJay574

    DeeJay574

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    I see a big difference there because in GT5 you are driving on a road and not on a Dyno, so whats wrong with road (tire) noise?

    Everything else will be better than the GT5 sound!! :tdown:

    I have to say "Sorry", but what I can see on the pictures of the sound recording of the Hyundai looks anything else than professional.
     
  8. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    8,634
    So was I. To clarify: gear changes sound great with an H-shifter and clutch.

    Those extra sounds would obviously be welcome.
    No, you don't want arbitrary tyre noise coming from the exhaust. Tyre noise needs to be handled separately, otherwise it only works when the in-game conditions precisely match up with the recording condition; unless you're suggesting they record the engine at the same rpm but different road speeds (gears)? Adding more samples can only ever reduce their quality with a fixed memory budget.

    And the only reason it doesn't look professional to you (presumably you're not a professional yourself) is because that's exactly how you want it to look. Maybe they should all be wearing suits?
     
  9. theotherspongey

    theotherspongey

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    It's called Forza 4.
     
  10. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The word used was realistic, not entertaining - you might as well have said Shift. ;)

    I'd argue PGR4 is better, in terms of samples (dedicated interior recordings). FM2 is also miles better than FM4 or 3, as it doesn't rely on distortion for effect, and the sounds change as you modify the cars - it also has separate engine (with intake!) and exhaust sounds. Quite why they went backwards like that is beyond me.
     
  11. theotherspongey

    theotherspongey

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    Oh please, Turn10's sound effects for Forza 4 are recorded directly from the cars. They're miles better then FM2 or 3, so I don't know what you're on about.
     
  12. Tornado

    Tornado

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    38,587
    Why would PD model transmission/drivetrain sounds only if you use an H-pattern shifter to play? That doesn't make any sense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  13. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,660
    Try to be in one of the cars of Forza 4 in real life. I have driven R32-R34 GTR in real life in stock and modified ( turbo, BOV, Exhaust, cam, etc ). Forza 4 car sounds are nothing but overly loud stylized sound effects for pure excitement. When you are actually inside a stock unmodified car, certain noise is not as pronounced as in the Forza 4, it may have accurate tone/sound, but the mixing, levels and details are all quite off the mark of authenticity. Same goes to race cars or modified ones, some of the sound mixing have one portion that is too dominant. I have driven one of my mate's R33 GTR with stripped interior, and heavily modded at 400kw at the wheels, Forza 4 never came close when it comes to sound realism.

    A good example of how should a tuned R33 GTR sounds inside the cockpit :crazy:



    Watch till the end :)
    Notice when the turbo spools up and hit peak boost, the intake noise, road(tire/suspension) noise, gear changes, exhaust and engine noise. I really do hope that PD sound department have people who actually compare the real and the game sounds, then actually at least try to have accurate sample + mixing.
     
  14. DeeJay574

    DeeJay574

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    The GT5 sound is one of the reasons why I don´t play GT5 any longer and play rather Forza 4 on my XBOX.

    I wait very wishfully for GT6 and hope they will improve the sound a lot.

    But in the moment I prefer an entertaining sound over an ultra unrealistic sound!

    Watching a great graphic with a highly detailed model of an sportscar in GT5 and hear in the same moment this rubbish sound is too much for me!

    I agree!
    But on the other side the Forza sound gives me enough feeling of driving a high powered car rather than a car with an electrical engine or with a defect transmission like in GT.
     
  15. ch3ng

    ch3ng

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    939
    You didn't need to make comparison. Turn10 already said that they made the sound a little bit more charasteristic and over the top.

    Correcte if i'm wrong. But still the sound is far better than the GT sound and Turn10 showed that they can make great sound. PD didn't made great sound yet and they have to proof that they can deliver.
     
  16. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Agree. I never really get it why Turn10 choose to make it over the top, sounds like some Hollywood sound designer having fun:sly:. But, I guess it's better than the dull and uninspiring sound from PD.

    I still wanted both Turn10 and PD choose to have the realistic mixing levels in the future release, then I would be able to enjoy both games more.

    Cheng, did you hear the beginning of the video, that startup sound, the sounds from the inside and when he launch next to the other car, imagine that in the game like Forza and GT.
     
  17. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    8,634
    Where exactly do you think they got the sounds for all the other games in the series? In their cereal boxes? No, they were also recorded from the cars. In terms of quality and overall sound design, FM2 blows them all out of the water.
    They don't. We were talking about the consistently instantaneous gear changes, which are almost back to GT1 levels. That's not a sound issue, and it isn't even an issue when you change fully manually.
    I said, though, that those incidental effects (mentioned in the post I was replying to) would be welcome.


    Anyway, the point isn't about which game has the better sound, but about what PD should be doing. And it certainly isn't copying NFS Forza (unless you mean FM2 ;)).
    That skyline video has excellent audio quality, and demonstrates why statically-mixed samples (FM3, FM4 - not FM2) suck.
     
  18. Earth

    Earth

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    Just FYI -

    Forza 4 Sound Team

    Creative Audio Director
    1. Nick Wiswell

      Audio Design, Recording, and Implementation
    2. Chase Combs (Aquent LLC) Audio Lead
    3. Adam Wilson (CompuCom Systems Inc) - Vehicle Audio Lead
    4. Stafford Brawler (The Audio Guys)
    5. Mike Caviezel
    6. Jon Georgievski (OMNI Audio)
    7. Mark Pospisil (Aquent LLC)
    8. Jason Syltebo (Izze-O-Studio)

      Additional Audio Recording
    9. Tim Bartlett (The Audio Guys)
    10. Dan Gardner (The Audio Guys)
    11. Carthach O Nuanain
    12. Jason Shirley

      Additional Software Engineer
    13. Robert Ridihhalgh (OMNI Audio)

      Additional Audio Software Engineering
    14. Chad Olsen

    GT5 Sound Team

    Lead Sound Designer
    1. Masao Kimura

      Sound Simulation
    2. Daisuke Takeuchi
    3. Youhei Shimizu
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  19. Jack The Ripper

    Jack The Ripper

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    I completely agree. Better sound please!
     
  20. zr1chris

    zr1chris

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    I can assure you that you are in the minority on this one.
     
  21. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    8,634
    Objectively speaking, FM2's samples are: cleaner, split into separate intake and exhaust sources and changed when you modify the cars (exhaust only). FM3 and FM4's are not.
    If ridiculously distorted sound really is "better" for the "majority" of people (and I can't imagine that's even close to being true), then maybe that's one less point conceded, but the other two are still pretty significant.


    @Earth: no sound recordists for PD? I guess they're not credited; maybe PD doesn't consider them part of the team...
     
  22. Earth

    Earth

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    7,846
    I count 3 people in that photo...coincidence? I dont think so
     
  23. zr1chris

    zr1chris

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    This video is Forza 4. Look at all the micro phones. The sounds are all still split from different sources on the car.

     
  24. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    That's not Forza 4 at all; that's a real-life recording session. :sly:

    You see, I was talking about in-game sound. All of those sources are mixed down into one point-source for playback in-game. That's how the cars sound exaggerated, sources that aren't quite so loud on the real thing are boosted (intake) and the overall tone is adjusted to suit the aesthetic requirements (NFS).

    FM2 kept intake and exhaust separate, as you should; FM3 and FM4 don't, so that even in chase view you get a face-full of intake sound - obviously mashed to oblivion first.
    Now that's fine if that's the sort of thing you like (NFS), but it's hardly realistic. PGR4 and FM2 were much more realistic, and they sounded great - they should be the quality target for GT, not FM4.


    @Earth one of them is apparently a Sony America employee, but there should at least be one more person manning a computer somewhere, that the mics are connected to. "Sound recording" is practically the opposite of "sound simulation", though.
     
  25. zr1chris

    zr1chris

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    That's clearly an assumption seeing as how you don't have inside info.
     
  26. doyley101

    doyley101

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    Feel the burn PD
     
  27. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    I might be wrong in thinking that it's only one source in-game, to be fair (it's certainly no more than two for engine sounds); it's actually hard to tell with all the distortion because it all sounds the same. Still, they don't change when you modify them and they sound daft for supposedly stock cars. I'd rather that didn't happen in GT6.
     
  28. Grand Prix

    Grand Prix Premium

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    I would love if PD returned the favour to me. Maybe we would get something resembling community interaction for once? :lol:
     
  29. Ls2BluGoat

    Ls2BluGoat

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    Nick Wiswell? Didn't he used to work with Bizarre Crations for the PGR franchise? Pretty cool to see he works with Turn 10 now, didn't even know that :tup:
     
  30. Raitziger

    Raitziger

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