Global Protests Against Social Distancing, Lockdown, Vaccine Mandate

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If you're an adult male, don't you also have to make your body available for civil service? How is this different save for the gender discrimination? It seems to me there really is no difference. You can cry like a little bitch in Austria but you still have to serve. Or...you know...leave.
You mean make yourself available for the army?
Do you mean anywhere in the world? Because it's still punishable by death to be homosexual in a bunch of countries.
No, I mean Western Europe, as would have been clear if you had quoted my entire post.
 
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22,451
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TexRex72
You mean make yourself available for the army?
Or for conscientious objectors, service in a non-military capacity that is still compulsory.
No, I mean Western Europe, as would have been clear if you had quoted my entire post.
Maybe read your post again. You stated no definition but cited an exception for Europe.

Why don't punishments for other things about an individual matter? What about Uighur Muslims in China?
 
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Joey D

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No, I mean Western Europe, as would have been clear if you had quoted one sentence beyond that sentence.
Except for the way it was written didn't make it clear. Had you said "In Europe, before the pandemic, people didn't break any laws simply by existing" that would've made sense. But leaving it open-ended like that doesn't quantify what group you're talking about, which is why I posed the question "do you mean anywhere in the world?"

But if you're going to single out Western Europe, there are a few countries, such as France, that make it illegal to were a religious face covering. France and Italy also do pretty much everything they can to make being Roma illegal.
 
1,499
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TB
You make the claim, you provide the source. That's how this has always worked.
I'm not sure if you really believe that. I hope you will be there to defend me or any other person you disagree
TB
Proximity does not equal causation. Just because I posted in a thread doesn't mean I'm the reason you can't.

That's between you and him, then.
Maybe some more transparency would have been nice for the thread ban I received. The ban I received when I replied to your false accusation.

COVID is not like the flu, double or triple capacity wouldn’t be enough if you let the pandemic go uncontrolled. Assuming that 10% of everyone infected needs ICU care and assuming that a maximum of 10% of the population would be infected at the same time, you’d need an ICU capacity of 180,000 beds to cope with it.
Really don't get what you are saying here?? COVID may not be like the Flu, but the problems we had with ICU capacity in the years before COVID were the same. The only difference is that the people that did not work in health care did not care about the capacity problems. Again, ICU capacity decreased by 2/3 in a span of 10 years with an growing and aging population. Nothing was done about the problems in health care a the people responsible are shifting the blame to people who are not vaccination.

I also wonder where that 10% of everyone infected needing ICU care is based on? The Netherlands has had about 2.6 million people infected with COVID and 35.000 hospitalisations total (that includes ICU admission but is not all ICU admissions). That is no where near 10% of the infected needing ICU care. It's about 1.4% total for hospitalisation of which 0,6% is for ICU care. so based on a population of 17,4 million people (Netherlands) we would need about 10.000 ICU beds if 10% of the population get's in infected at the same time. Something I don't think is likely to happen.

The data shows that the vaccine keeps people out of the hospital and keeps them from dying.
Same trick everytime.. A healthy person under 60 has a less then 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID. Vaccination might help but the chance is still less than 0%. Vaccines are usefull for people at risk.
Except it is something that needs to be taken seriously by everyone and it's not dishonest to present the current situation as scary, especially when you factor in the hospitalizations. I don't believe I would die if I was infected, but right now if I was in need of ICU care for a non-COVID-related issue, it would be a tall order.
Focus on fixin ICU capacity issues then. I already explained. The same thing happend with Flu seasons in the past. That same person that had their knee replacement surgery postponed during COVID would have had it postponed during the 2017/2018 Flu season. We have 1.8 million unvaccinated people in the Netherlands If 10% get covid at the same time and we go by 0.6% of that 10% ending up with ICU care we would be at about a 1000 ICU beds. That would be absolute worst case scenario. We can have another discussion about vaccine mandates if we ever get anywhere close to that point.
Ok, but how about you look outside the Netherlands before making that assumption? Worldwide there haven't been seasons, there have been spikes based on certain gatherings and a multitude of other factors such as people being burnt out from COVID and getting complacent. Eventually, COVID might end up being seasonal like influenza, but currently, it isn't.
Fair point. I wil wait one more winter befor I call this health care problems sasonal.
I've known boosters were going to be a thing since January, which was only a month after the vaccine was made available. Most people in the medical field understood boosters were likely going to be a thing within a year and it became clearer and clearer as more and more data came out. Maybe you and I hang around different types of people, but I can't recall anyone thinking that a booster was a conspiracy outside the already idiotic COVID deniers.
Good for you and smart move buying more Pfizer stock. Vaccine mandates around the world could be a very nice pay day for you. Many people including the fact checkers thought booster shots were a conspiracy theory made op by the "covidiots". Vaccine pasports were also a crazy conspiracy theory. Being forced to get vaccinated was also a crazy conspiracy theory. All of these things have become a conspiracy fact by now.
And I do agree, some media outlets did a very poor job of explaining how vaccines work and people made incorrect assumptions about the vaccine.
Atleast something we agree on.
It 100% makes sense that you need a booster if you wish to do things in large groups or travel.
It makes zero sense to me. But I don't own Pfizer stock.. (sadly)
That any person under 60 with a healthy BMI has no reason to fear COVID. That's incorrect and I explained to you why.
Fear... You can be carefull sure, but living in fear is no way to live. Someone under 60 with a healty BMI should not have to live in fear of having COVID.
Except I'm not painting it as a 50/50 chance. I presenting it as you have a greater chance for long-term COVID effects than dying so you should be concerned about it and take precautions since we don't know how those long-term effects will play out. I'm also saying we don't know all the long-term effects because not enough time has passed. How many people have long COVID is still being studied, but the National Institute of Health has pretty decent data that suggest it is somewhere between 10-30% of infected people:


Smaller studies suggest 50% or more people experience long COVID:


I've deceided to not spend my time reading the studies you've shared because it's not import to the broader point. The restrictions that some European regimes are imposing on their subjects are based on the lack of ICU capacity and not long COVID. Everytime the Dutch regime has a press confrence on more restrictions, the reasons they give for more restrictions are the hospitals. These restrictions like lockdowns, COVID pass for entry to non essential businesses and vaccine mandates are the reason why people are protesting.

And things will only get worse. The people that have not had the vaccine are likely not to take the vaccine no matter what. These people for now have jobs and will do the some protesting on sunday. Take away their jobs and things could get ugly for everyone.

Edit: We now at atleast 80% vaccination rate have a higher number of people in the hospitals as we ever had with 0% vaccination.
 
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TB

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I'm not sure if you really believe that. I hope you will be there to defend me or any other person you disagree
1) I wouldn't have said it if I didn't believe it.

2) I'm not your defense lawyer. I don't have to defend you if we disagree.

Maybe some more transparency would have been nice for the thread ban I received. The ban I received when I replied to your false accusation.
You keep bringing up something I've already told you I had no involvement in and I can't for the life of me understand why.
 
1,499
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TB
1) I wouldn't have said it of I didn't believe it.

2) I'm not your defense lawyer. I don't have to defend you if we disagree.


You keep bringing up something I've already told you I had no involvement in and I can't for the life of me understand why.
I really don't get what you are trying to do here? It was the same in the COVID. Your goal seems to be to pick a fight instead of having a conversationg. I have 3 people on my ignore list for exactly this reason.
False accusation.jpg
 

Danoff

Who is John Galt?
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I'm not sure if you really believe that. I hope you will be there to defend me or any other person you disagree

Maybe some more transparency would have been nice for the thread ban I received. The ban I received when I replied to your false accusation.


Really don't get what you are saying here?? COVID may not be like the Flu, but the problems we had with ICU capacity in the years before COVID were the same. The only difference is that the people that did not work in health care did not care about the capacity problems. Again, ICU capacity decreased by 2/3 in a span of 10 years with an growing and aging population. Nothing was done about the problems in health care a the people responsible are shifting the blame to people who are not vaccination.

I also wonder where that 10% of everyone infected needing ICU care is based on? The Netherlands has had about 2.6 million people infected with COVID and 35.000 hospitalisations total (that includes ICU admission but is not all ICU admissions). That is no where near 10% of the infected needing ICU care. It's about 1.4% total for hospitalisation of which 0,6% is for ICU care. so based on a population of 17,4 million people (Netherlands) we would need about 10.000 ICU beds if 10% of the population get's in infected at the same time. Something I don't think is likely to happen.


Same trick everytime.. A healthy person under 60 has a less then 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID. Vaccination might help but the chance is still less than 0%. Vaccines are usefull for people at risk.

Focus on fixin ICU capacity issues then. I already explained. The same thing happend with Flu seasons in the past. That same person that had their knee replacement surgery postponed during COVID would have had it postponed during the 2017/2018 Flu season. We have 1.8 million unvaccinated people in the Netherlands If 10% get covid at the same time and we go by 0.6% of that 10% ending up with ICU care we would be at about a 1000 ICU beds. That would be absolute worst case scenario. We can have another discussion about vaccine mandates if we ever get anywhere close to that point.

Fair point. I wil wait one more winter befor I call this health care problems sasonal.

Good for you and smart move buying more Pfizer stock. Vaccine mandates around the world could be a very nice pay day for you. Many people including the fact checkers thought booster shots were a conspiracy theory made op by the "covidiots". Vaccine pasports were also a crazy conspiracy theory. Being forced to get vaccinated was also a crazy conspiracy theory. All of these things have become a conspiracy fact by now.

Atleast something we agree on.

It makes zero sense to me. But I don't own Pfizer stock.. (sadly)

Fear... You can be carefull sure, but living in fear is no way to live. Someone under 60 with a healty BMI should not have to live in fear of having COVID.

I've deceided to not spend my time reading the studies you've shared because it's not import to the broader point. The restrictions that some European regimes are imposing on their subjects are based on the lack of ICU capacity and not long COVID. Everytime the Dutch regime has a press confrence on more restrictions, the reasons they give for more restrictions are the hospitals. These restrictions like lockdowns, COVID pass for entry to non essential businesses and vaccine mandates are the reason why people are protesting.

And things will only get worse. The people that have not had the vaccine are likely not to take the vaccine no matter what. These people for now have jobs and will do the some protesting on sunday. Take away their jobs and things could get ugly for everyone.

Edit: We now at atleast 80% vaccination rate have a higher number of people in the hospitals as we ever had with 0% vaccination.
This post is like an absolute firehose of wrong. A healthy person under 60 has a less than 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID? That's, first of all, impossible. And second of all, the sentiment is completely wrong - and we've been over that countless times on this forum. The fact that you're repeating it, after it's been discussed, actually does constitution misinformation.

For reference, and I know this will include some unhealthy people, almost 200,000 people under 64 have died from COVID-19 in the US.

Being forced to be vaccinated was never a conspiracy theory. In the US we forced people to get the smallpox vaccine, despite it being a more dangerous vaccine. I could keep going but, honestly, I know you're not listening since it has all be explained before.
 
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22,451
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TexRex72
TB
2) I'm not your defense lawyer. I don't have to defend you if we disagree.
I think you already get this and I don't think anyone paying attention isn't likely to get this, but I'm compelled to explain this just to get it on the page.

It's a preemptive allegation of hypocrisy. You have been observed as holding certain views (if based solely on the information you've accepted as factual) and you are perceived to have acted based on the views you're perceived to hold. You're now expected to act similarly if someone who is observed as holding views similar to yours or you're a hypocrite. But this means to have to observe and act on all perceived infractions similar to those you've acted on in this situation when they're by someone who is observed as holding views similar to yours, whether you can reasonably be expected to observe them all or not.

TB
You keep bringing up something I've already told you I had no involvement in and I can't for the life of me understand why.
One is believed to have been wronged and in this (well, that) situation can only have been wronged by someone who wields capabilities that you also wield, and so you're equally culpable. It's not rational, but then grievance often isn't rational.
 

Joey D

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Same trick everytime.. A healthy person under 60 has a less then 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID. Vaccination might help but the chance is still less than 0%. Vaccines are usefull for people at risk.
Except that's not what you said, you said:
It's not the vaccine keeping people out of the hospitals. It's being a healthy person that keeps you out of the hospital.
And I showed you data that supports the idea that what you said is incorrect. Being vaccinated gives you a much better chance of staying out of the hospital, it's a factual statement backed by actual evidence.
Focus on fixin ICU capacity issues then. I already explained. The same thing happend with Flu seasons in the past. That same person that had their knee replacement surgery postponed during COVID would have had it postponed during the 2017/2018 Flu season. We have 1.8 million unvaccinated people in the Netherlands If 10% get covid at the same time and we go by 0.6% of that 10% ending up with ICU care we would be at about a 1000 ICU beds. That would be absolute worst case scenario. We can have another discussion about vaccine mandates if we ever get anywhere close to that point.
As I've said numerous times, I don't know anything about the healthcare system in the Netherlands so I can't comment on it. Maybe it is horrible, maybe it isn't, I honestly and truthfully have no idea.

I can only comment on the US healthcare system since I'm pretty aware of how it works. I'm going on 10 years working in healthcare and prior to the pandemic, I never saw any procedures that needed to be delayed because of an influx of patients to the hospital. Even during a bad influenza season, this doesn't happen. However, with COVID it absolutely is happening and I see it first hand.

Fixing a lack of ICU beds is easier said than done too. ICU beds are expensive to build out due to all the equipment needed and you need more advanced nurses to work in ICUs, which requires more training and typically a higher wage. Somewhere between 80-85% capacity is about as high as you ever want in the ICU for a multitude of reasons, when it gets above that you have a problem. However, letting ICU beds sit empty is not a good use of resources for any health system since those resources could be allocated to improve patient care elsewhere.
Good for you and smart move buying more Pfizer stock. Vaccine mandates around the world could be a very nice pay day for you. Many people including the fact checkers thought booster shots were a conspiracy theory made op by the "covidiots". Vaccine pasports were also a crazy conspiracy theory. Being forced to get vaccinated was also a crazy conspiracy theory. All of these things have become a conspiracy fact by now.
It wasn't a secret that boosters were going to be a thing. Moderna even said boosters were likely in January 2021:


As for buying Pfizer stock, I mean why wouldn't I? Between the approval of the vaccine for patients 5+ and the pills that are similar to Merck's pills, why wouldn't I do this? They're on track to be the leader in COVID treatments and since COVID isn't going anywhere, I might as well try to make some money while the rest of the market burns down. With that said, I rather COVID not be a thing and I would be fine investing that money elsewhere.
It makes zero sense to me. But I don't own Pfizer stock.. (sadly)
I've explained this, as have many others, ad nauseam. Vaccine protection wanes, nearly every vaccine has its protection wane, and it's why boosters are a thing. It makes sense because if you want to travel or gather in large groups you should have adequate protection.

I believed this prior to owning Pfizer stock too, because you know, science.
I've deceided to not spend my time reading the studies you've shared because it's not import to the broader point. The restrictions that some European regimes are imposing on their subjects are based on the lack of ICU capacity and not long COVID. Everytime the Dutch regime has a press confrence on more restrictions, the reasons they give for more restrictions are the hospitals. These restrictions like lockdowns, COVID pass for entry to non essential businesses and vaccine mandates are the reason why people are protesting.
So I show you evidence about why someone under 60 should be fearful of COVID and you just outright dismiss? I see that you're really not interested in actually having a discussion since I back up what I'm telling you with sources and you back up whatever you're saying with...uh...hopes and dreams?
 
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TexRex72
This post is like an absolute firehose of wrong. A healthy person under 60 has a less than 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID? That's, first of all, impossible. And second of all, the sentiment is completely wrong - and we've been over that countless times on this forum. The fact that you're repeating it, after it's been discussed, actually does constitution misinformation.

For reference, and I know this will include some unhealthy people, almost 200,000 people under 64 have died from COVID-19 in the US.
You're engaging someone who bare minimum posted manipulated images depicting headlines featuring morbidly obese individuals (taken from media documenting morbidly obese individuals) and a headline claiming they were healthy and that they died of COVID should come as surprise. More likely is this individual actually personally manipulated those images.

Just saying.
 

TB

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I really don't get what you are trying to do here? It was the same in the COVID. Your goal seems to be to pick a fight instead of having a conversationg. I have 3 people on my ignore list for exactly this reason.
View attachment 1097244
If you're going to change the subject from your apparent thread ban (which I've already said I had no involvement in) to me not responding to your posts before the thread ban (which is wrong because I did), don't expect me to be able to follow you.
 
1,499
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Netherlands
This post is like an absolute firehose of wrong. A healthy person under 60 has a less than 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID? That's, first of all, impossible. And second of all, the sentiment is completely wrong - and we've been over that countless times on this forum. The fact that you're repeating it, after it's been discussed, actually does constitution misinformation.

For reference, and I know this will include some unhealthy people, almost 200,000 people under 64 have died from COVID-19 in the US.
That says more about the general state of American health or health care...
Being forced to be vaccinated was never a conspiracy theory. In the US we forced people to get the smallpox vaccine, despite it being more a dangerous vaccine. I could keep going but, honestly, I know you're not listening since it has all be explained before.
I feel the same about you<3
 

Danoff

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That says more about the general state of American health or health care...

So presumably most of those people wouldn't have gone to the hospital in another country (less than 0%), but in the American healthcare system they die because American healthcare? No wonder you don't like Pfizer.
 
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TB

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It's a preemptive allegation of hypocrisy. You have been observed as holding certain views (if based solely on the information you've accepted as factual) and you are perceived to have acted based on the views you're perceived to hold. You're now expected to act similarly if someone who is observed as holding views similar to yours or you're a hypocrite. But this means to have to observe and act on all perceived infractions similar to those you've acted on in this situation when they're by someone who is observed as holding views similar to yours, whether you can reasonably be expected to observe them all or not.
I'll keep this short(ish) as I'm about to leave work and enjoy a night out with my wife then attend a play about burning witches.

And this isn't directed at you, obviously.

If anyone violates the AUP (which for reference states nothing about simply disagreeing with the staff and you're gone), you get a warning. If, because of friendship or simply involvement in the situation, you feel you can't do that without prejudice, or even perceived prejudice, another member of staff has in the past been called in to look through the posts and, if necessary, address what needs addressing.

Even in the case that I'm "out to get you" or "pick a fight", all moderator actions are recorded and can be reviewed by any member of staff.
 
1,499
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Netherlands
So presumably most of those people wouldn't have gone to the hospital in another country (less than 0%), but in the American healthcare system they die because American healthcare? No wonder you don't like Pfizer.
Going by the numbers, yes you would be better of in for example the Netherlands if you are under 64.
 
7,668
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Denmark
But if you're going to single out Western Europe, there are a few countries, such as France, that make it illegal to were a religious face covering. France and Italy also do pretty much everything they can to make being Roma illegal.
So forced vaccinations aren’t a big deal, because human rights questions exist in other areas of Western Europe, not to mention across the world in general?
 
22,451
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TexRex72
Before the pandemic people didn’t break any laws simply by existing.
But if you're going to single out Western Europe, there are a few countries, such as France, that make it illegal to were a religious face covering. France and Italy also do pretty much everything they can to make being Roma illegal.
So forced vaccinations aren’t a big deal, because human rights questions exist in other areas of Western Europe, not to mention across the world in general?
dd0.png
 
1,499
Netherlands
Netherlands
Wow... not remotely what I said. Totally non-responsive.
Excuse the huuuge (and dumb and silly)mistake on my part. Less than zero would be minus which is silly. What I ment is that it's in the less than 1% range. When comparing the under 60 numbers from the Netherlands to America, then you would be way better of in the Netherlands. Almost 10 times. Deaths under 60 are at 0,0234% in the Netherlands.

Will take some time to give you a number on the total number of hospitalisations under 60 if you really really need it. But going by the Totaal number and knowing that the majority is in the 70+ range. I could make a guess assuming that 70% of all the COVID infection hospitalisations were people under 60, then the percentage of people undere 60 would be about 0,9%. Truth is that it's probably closer to 30% (0,4%) than it is to 70%.
 
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Joey D

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So forced vaccinations aren’t a big deal, because human rights questions exist in other areas of Western Europe, not to mention across the world in general?
You said prior to the pandemic it wasn't illegal for people to simply exist. I provided you with an example of where it was. That's all my post was getting at.

I'm not in favor of forced vaccinations either. I am, however, in favor of things like termination of employment, unable to enter a venue, and being denied healthcare based on your vaccination status if a company or organization chooses to do so. Despite what you may think, I am pro-choice when it comes to vaccines, but on the same token, I'm also pro-accepting the consequences of your actions.

Ideally, there wouldn't be anti-vaxxers though, but there are too many ignorant people out there that buy into misinformation to make that a reality. It's almost like schools stopped teaching the scientific method somewhere along the way.
 

McLaren

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I'm not sure if you really believe that. I hope you will be there to defend me or any other person you disagree
That's literally Debate 101.
Same trick everytime.. A healthy person under 60 has a less then 0% chance of ending up in the hospital with COVID. Vaccination might help but the chance is still less than 0%. Vaccines are usefull for people at risk.
Lol, I literally provided a first hand account of a man in your similar demographic who spent a month in the hospital.

And you wonder why you got a thread ban. :lol:
 
22,451
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TexRex72
The goal post card always gets pulled when someone feels exposed by a rheotorical question. Nice try. :lol:
This is deflection. You refused to accept a response to a solicitation based solely on it not meeting standards you declined to establish at the start. You subsequently refused to accept it because it wasn't the exact scenario to which you're referring, a standard you also declined to establish at the start. This is known colloquially as "moving the goalposts," an informal logical fallacy because the logic at play isn't fallacious by nature but it has been utilized in a less than logical manner as it relates to discussion. Move the goalposts enough and the fallacy is said to be a "goalpost on wheels."