Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title

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Are you disappointed GT7 is also on PS4 with gameplay & graphic assets held back by PS4 limitations?


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5,782
Germany
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alexpkas
Im going to make an easy prediction... GT7 PS4 edition will sell more copies than GT7 PS5 edition out the gate and ongoing...

Sarcasme? IF GT comes in 2022 (which it won't, it will be 2023), the PS5 version will outsell the PS4 version ~5:1. In 2023 we might be looking at sth. closer to 10:1. Don't believe me? Just you watch...
 

Scaff

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Why would a PS4 version necessarily compromise the PS5 version? GT3 looked better than GT4 on the PS2 and GT5 looked and performed better than GT6 on the PS3. So I wouldn't be surprised if a PS4 version of GT7 would repeat this story against GT Sport, but with the PS5 version of GT7 being the new-generation experience it was always intended to be, cross-generation or not.
I've played all four back to back recently, and no GT3 doesn't look better than GT4, and GT5 does look better and most certainly doesn't perform better than GT6. Even after all the patches and environmental strip backs they did for GT5, it was still as janky as hell in terms of performance.
 
37,049
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SpacedustDaddy
I still haven't tried Drive Club. I think the First person view of walking to the car, threw me off. So long ago.

No doubt I totally understand the argument of casual players thinking if they get GT7 for PS5, it'll be epic. The crux of the game is going to be offline. The graphics can still look like GTS. What offline content players will have, for infinite replayability, that will show if the game is a flop or not. No amount of rain or snow conditions, can gloss over lack of offline content.
 
22
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jangelelcangry
Well, I'm not disappointed because:
1) 2022 is not that far from the PS5 release (2023 onward otherwise...)
2) There a lot of PS4s sold.
3) They were able to do this because how similar the PS5 & the PS4 are. If they tried to do this with the PS3>PS4 would've been way harder due to architecture differences.
I'd say: I'm okay because the PS5 is new right now if not, it would be a disappointment.
IMO OFC.
PS. I Want Gran Turismo PC edition NOW!
 
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15,775
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RandomCarGuy17
Would take years as they would have to build two separate physics models assuming Polyphony were trying to use the PS5 to (insert your gran turismo physics opinion here) or use mine…modernize the real driving simulators tire model.
I’m not sure Polyphony is ready to let a 3rd party cut into their c++ efforts for a simpler back end PS4 version.
No they wouldn't, they just need to make one for PS5 and keep GTSport's physics engine for PS4. The second team signed on would just have to copy the general game structure of GT7 and content. That's what happened with Forza Horizon 2. FH2 on X360 just used the physics engine from FM4 & FH1.

As a detriment to the PS4 version, it would just lack features on the PS5 version such as dynamic time and weather to maintain framerate.

Also, I just said that this may not happen in my last comment. No need to tell me that.
 
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1,025
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Doomotron
This entire thread...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/driveclub-scenery.320510/

...illustrates just how wrong that claim is in regard to environments.

DC has 3d volumetric clouds, and fully modelled environments, oh and don't forget the real-time lighting as opposed to GTS's pre-baked stuff.

https://blog.playstation.com/archive/2014/06/05/51-driveclub-details-might-just-blow-mind/
I disagree that Driveclub is a better looking game overall. While the environments are completely stunning and miles better than GTS', GT Sport will always have the edge over DC overall because of ray-tracing. In comparison to GT Sport, DC looks gloomy and muted, compared to GTS' much more appealing colours, shadows and reflections, even without HDR enabled.

That said, I dream of a ray-traced Driveclub... 🙇
 

Scaff

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I disagree that Driveclub is a better looking game overall. While the environments are completely stunning and miles better than GTS', GT Sport will always have the edge over DC overall because of ray-tracing. In comparison to GT Sport, DC looks gloomy and muted, compared to GTS' much more appealing colours, shadows and reflections, even without HDR enabled.

That said, I dream of a ray-traced Driveclub... 🙇
My post was specifically referring to the environments, that said I personally think DC has the edge in poor weather conditions.

It's also important to remember that DC never got a Pro patch either, which is a real shame. So much potential thrown in the bin by Sony.
 

Rjo

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No they wouldn't, they just need to make one for PS5 and keep GTSport's physics engine for PS4.

The second team signed on would just have to copy the general game structure of GT7 and content.

That's what happened with Forza Horizon 2. FH2 on X360 just used the physics engine from FM4 & FH1.

As a detrement to the PS4 version, it would just lack features on the PS5 version such as dynamic time and weather to maintain framerate.

Also, I just said that this may not happen in my last comment. No need to tell me that.
The part where you say lacking features is exactly the thing that alan boiston from team vvv said as well,he called it a conversion of said game if you will and basically what he meant was that if a conversion is made of said game,in this case gt 7 from ps5 to ps4,what would they have to do to make the experience run comparable to the version they are porting from or downscale if you will,it's going to happen,the jaguar cpu in the ps4 is slow as it is and that is meant to keep up with a zen 2 cpu in a ps5??? good luck with that one polyphony digital :D
 
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I can't believe Kaz said no next gen till GT12 on the PS15 due in 2050.

Plus Kaz said GT7 will be cross gen and not come out till 2027.
 
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My post was specifically referring to the environments, that said I personally think DC has the edge in poor weather conditions.

It's also important to remember that DC never got a Pro patch either, which is a real shame. So much potential thrown in the bin by Sony.

I know the servers are shut but can you imagine this with a PS5 patch.4K and 60fps.......
Totally off topic i know but regarding the closed servers,how was i able to download it,along with the bikes and most of the cars dlc onto my ps5 in December?Are they stored seperately?Just curious how it works.👍
 

Scaff

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I know the servers are shut but can you imagine this with a PS5 patch.4K and 60fps.......
Totally off topic i know but regarding the closed servers,how was i able to download it,along with the bikes and most of the cars dlc onto my ps5 in December?Are they stored seperately?Just curious how it works.👍
Those are stored on the PSN store servers as far as I know.
 

Corsa

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No they wouldn't, they just need to make one for PS5 and keep GTSport's physics engine for PS4. The second team signed on would just have to copy the general game structure of GT7 and content. That's what happened with Forza Horizon 2. FH2 on X360 just used the physics engine from FM4 & FH1.

As a detriment to the PS4 version, it would just lack features on the PS5 version such as dynamic time and weather to maintain framerate.

Also, I just said that this may not happen in my last comment. No need to tell me that.

Not trying to tell you anything. Sure it’s a grand idea for cross gen but my thoughts are there’s no way they would segregate the player base with the FIA Online Championships using two different physic models.
 
15,775
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Not trying to tell you anything. Sure it’s a grand idea for cross gen but my thoughts are there’s no way they would segregate the player base with the FIA Online Championships using two different physic models.
Oh I know that for sure and that in itself is the problem. That push to include everyone under one umbrella is going to ultimately hurt this entry, the PS4 users are going to hold the PS5 version back.

If Polyphony Digital (and especially Sony, I have a hunch that this is Sony's idea) want to make GT7 a cross-gen game, segregating the ports is the only way to do it. That's how things worked out well with Forza Horizon 2 and Test Drive Unlimited's cross-gen methods. If PD won't, but well...it's just too bad.
 
130
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
All this just really makes no sense. GT7 was meant to be console seller. Laying a new foundation on the next-gen machines that I imagine PD would support going forward similarly to GT Sport, building upon the game post-release with improvements and new features. Shackling the new game to the PS4s power just baffles me, particularly with the game probably being another year+ away.

I get that they want to maximise sales but if the new Forza has been built to run specifically on the new hardware it would make Sony and PD look foolish by limiting what they could do by having to support the PS4.

GT should be setting the example to all 3rd party studios to what is possible on the new hardware, as a showcase and setting a new standard.

Maybe I’m just in denial but the fact there’s been no concrete clarification with changes on the PS Store that explicitly says the game is coming to PS4, I’m still hanging on to hope that this has all been a huge balls up in terms of miscommunication. Maybe Sony wanted to test the waters and see what the response would be if they put the information out there.

Perhaps if Ratchet & Clank sells well enough, with it being a true next-gen release not shackled to the PS4s limitations, Sony might have more faith in a next-gen exclusive GT. Plus if sales aren’t as high as they hope on release I’m sure the numbers will naturally grow when more consoles become available later down the road, particularly if it becomes a true showcase for the new consoles.

What I personally want to see now is Microsoft showcase some gameplay of Forza 8 running on Series X this summer and absolutely blow everybody away with how it looks and runs. I feel like that would definitely pass the buck back onto Sony and perhaps encourage them to rethink making GT7 a cross gen release, and instead go all out on a next gen version to compete with what Microsoft have in store.
 
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RACECAR

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Even after all the patches and environmental strip backs they did for GT5, it was still as janky as hell in terms of performance.

And that's if you're lucky to have your copy boot up (Load times the same length as a century and all) . Guess what mine won't do even now...
 
93
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wrmedeiros
OK, looking over this thread (and the questionnaire above) it's clear that if Polyphony confirms the PS4 move (which at the moment hasn't happened yet) a vast majority of players will be pissed. However, reading the reasons presented to feel that way, I'd say that maybe, maaaaybe isn't the end of the world, if Polyphony strive enough in key elements of the game (which by the way I don't know they will do, but hey, if any developer reads this forum and implement my suggestions, who knows :D).

Before we begin, to elaborate better my line of thinking, I recommend watching those two episodes from Ars Technica - War Stories (which by the way, are awesome ones):



To simplify, both stories revolved into hardware limitations that developers needed to overcome to create their games, and both evolved into key elements of the game being build, not constrained, by the resources limitations at the time. I don't need to be a PC Master Race aficionado (I'm a very analog thinking person yet :lol:) to know that both Apple II and Play Station 1 are centuries behind the current/next gen capabilities.

So, what does I want to argue then? That what can make Gran Turismo 7 a good game does not revolves into the hardware limitations of PS4 or the marvelous advance that PS5 represents (and I can see your blasphemy face right now), but into what CAN be implemented into both platforms so the game have enough sauce for the players. I'll list them:

1 - A compelling career mode: Unfortunately, this is something in what GT5, GT6 and GT Sport lacked. Going through the career mode felt only like changing menus, not something that you conquered. In GT Sport, for example, there are "Championships" that doesn't carry any sort of accomplishment (Seriously, what it means beating "The Passion of Doctor Wankel"?). Racing the Stars and Stripes is no different than the Mazda Cup, you only change the allowed car and voilà! It would be positive to have a career mode where there is meaning to start the Sunday Cup, enter challenging situations with different cars, try something different with another new car into the Clubman Cup, unlocking a national starters championship so you can learn another new circuit, really feeling the step up from road passenger cars to an entry-level racing discipline, or trying a one make cup so you could unlock a different branch of disciplines or cars. Something that creates a provocative atmosphere. Maybe having a Trophy Case with elaborate trophies, insignias, so you can rejoice what you conquered, or fetch what is missing?

2 - A consistent car list: This is where the last GTs where... inconsistent. I believe that any car that is in the game requires some sort of artistic meaning. Why I want this car? Why the player will use it? Will it be competitive? It is historical, or will fulfill a discipline where its relevant? Unfortunately, the GT Sport updates looked more like they patched the cars that where finished first rather than creating a consistent car list. Ex: McLaren F1 and Aston Martin DBR9 in Gr3. Those two cars are relevant, they are competitive in their times, but race alone into a discipline where they don't belong. Wouldn't it be nice to race the McLaren against their BPR counterparts, or the Aston against a GT1 field, instead of a painful BOP against GT3? Also, we have plentiful of modern cars and historic cars that could be relevant to GT (Ex: TCR). Will it be implemented? Unfortunately, there are so many cars that were ignored in the last titles...

I did my racing car only list. I ended up with 1040 racing cars... :lol:

3 - A consistent circuit list: The article quotes two circuits where it could be difficult to implement into PS4, and I don't have resources to oppose that. However, seeing that PC2 have 60 individual circuits, why it can be done in GT? Instead of Isle of Man and Pikes Peak, it would be a worse game if it has Sebring, Dubai, Indianapolis, Daytona, and also the return of the original circuits, like Trial Mountain, Midfield Raceway, and other tracks that also could refine the artistic meaning that I quoted in the car list?

4 - Sandbox capabilities:
These are the things presented to the players as usable tools, so they can create whenever he wants. These things carry a lot of replay-ability, and can carry the game longer (Ex: how many people still creates new liveries today!!) Lets break this into three things, the livery editor, custom races/championships and weekend simulator. For the livery editor, the few things that requires improvement are the search mechanism (pain) and the library saving and accessibility. The custom races are also a starter in GT Sport, and I wish they could improve into something that Assetto Corsa already have, choosing your opponents, their liveries, creating a full championship etc. This, with a proper weekend of practice, qualify and race, cannot be done in the PS4?

5 - The Sport Mode: It's imperative to improve the Penalty System. Then one can argue that the PS5 will have higher FPS, which is no problem for the offline modes, only when going into cross gen racing. But if it finds a way to keep it near the 60 FPS rate to online races, it's a problem? It isn't better to have more competition being generated for an online mode?

6 - Controller filtering/Wheel FFB:
I started GT Sport playing with the DS4, and I can attest without a doubt that PD can create a competent filtering to controllers. Sure it loses a bit to wheels and tire wear(pain), but IMHO it's miles ahead PC and AC, so this is not my concern (and yes, I hope that the adaptive triggers evolves it even more). It carries the same feeling for wheels FFB (Although, can you refine a little to Logitech users too, please?).

7 - AI: That is something that PD really needs to improve. But other contemporary racing games (and older...) did it good enough, so I can't say that it's hardware limited.


I reached the seventh element of my argument with few things that cannot be implemented in the PS4. Sure, the SSD, CPU and GPU will definitely make better load times and carry more polygons, but it's nothing that will fail to pass QA. Now, the three things that there is fair doubt:

7- Physics/Tire Model: Having much better physics, a priori, could require a leap of hardware. But isn't Project Cars considered to have better physics? The tire model requires refinement, sure, but it's also much more math and situational related than GPU. For example, something that is already implemented is the visual effect of tire slip angle, which I believe is much more resource consuming, so maybe I can see the math being refined, if they want it happening too...

8 - The dynamic weather debacle:
Here comes the polemic. I believe that is more important to have a proper physics simulation of the track changes rather than a state of the art dynamic weather visualization. Calculating how the temperature changes the air characteristic and the track grip, showing the effects of this changes throughout the driving, with dynamic grip changes into the track after a number of laps consuming rubber. If its implemented with a simple weather change view, lets say like GT6, it wouldn't be better than a beautiful effect with no consequences in physics? These math changes would be much more useful into any of the 30 min sessions that we race, and even the career races, leaving the endurance races with the visual effects. If we think about realism, dynamic weather with time multipliers isn't realistic too (except at Interlagos, there it is real, trust me, that is a weather nightmare :lol:).

9 - Car counts:
There is a concern about the number of cars into the grid. I can remember that there was Top 24 races at the beginning of the GTSport. How it performed? If the offline mode keeps its 20 car limit (considering that they implemented it into private lobbies too), and offline grids increased to 24, wouldn't be an improvement?

Will PD do this? I hope! but I can understand the doubt revolving cross-gen game development. And I sure recommend waiting into proper reviews to buy, since only an honest, hands on experience can attest if is worth it. We don't need another Cyberfraud 2077. And besides, if GT7 ends up being a PS5 exclusive and fails to deliver those things, does it matter how many Teraflops the hardware can perform?
 
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Scaff

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@Warte a great post and I don't really have much to add to most of your points.

6 - Controller filtering/Wheel FFB: I started GT Sport playing with the DS4, and I can attest without a doubt that PD can create a competent filtering to controllers. Sure it loses a bit to wheels and tire wear(pain), but IMHO it's miles ahead PC and AC, so this is not my concern (and yes, I hope that the adaptive triggers evolves it even more). It carries the same feeling for wheels FFB (Although, can you refine a little to Logitech users too, please?).
I'm not sure if you are giving praise to GTS' FFB here, but if you are I would have to seriously disagree. It's FFB is poor, lacking in detail and a long way behind almost every other title that falls into the sim genre in one form or another.


7 - AI: That is something that PD really needs to improve. But other contemporary racing games (and older...) did it good enough, so I can't say that it's hardware limited.
I would agree that it's not hardware limited, and I honestly don't know what the issue is with PD and AI, but not only do they seem incapable of putting a reasonable AI in place, they seem to be uninterested in doing so.


7- Physics/Tire Model: Having much better physics, a priori, could require a leap of hardware. But isn't Project Cars considered to have better physics? The tire model requires refinement, sure, but it's also much more math and situational related than GPU. For example, something that is already implemented is the visual effect of tire slip angle, which I believe is much more resource consuming, so maybe I can see the math being refined, if they want it happening too...
Again I would agree that it doesn't require a leap of hardware, as AC, ACC and Pcars show on the same console generations, however as things stand right now, PD are behind the development curve in terms of physics by a generation. It;s also not just the tyre model at issue, but also the damper and aero models, as well as a seeming inability to understand how LSD's work on FWD cars, hell the FWD and RR cars are just plain wrong and given how long that's been the case, again PD seem uninterested in fixing it


8 - The dynamic weather debacle:
Here comes the polemic. I believe that is more important to have a proper physics simulation of the track changes rather than a state of the art dynamic weather visualization. Calculating how the temperature changes the air characteristic and the track grip, showing the effects of this changes throughout the driving, with dynamic grip changes into the track after a number of laps consuming rubber. If its implemented with a simple weather change view, lets say like GT6, it wouldn't be better than a beautiful effect with no consequences in physics? These math changes would be much more useful into any of the 30 min sessions that we race, and even the career races, leaving the endurance races with the visual effects. If we think about realism, dynamic weather with time multipliers isn't realistic too (except at Interlagos, there it is real, trust me, that is a weather nightmare :lol:).
So what your suggesting is that PD go down the route that AC did originally, which is park weather and go for the evolution of the track surface over a race/race weekend. It's an interesting idea and would potentially make cross platform development easier. I just have little faith that PD could pull it off, and it would end up simply being a grip multiplier and nothing else and further hobbled by the physics issues the series has.

Oh and those sudden weather changes, they are just a real at a lot of European tracks, particularly the ones in the UK.

And besides, if GT7 ends up being a PS5 exclusive and fails to deliver those things, does it matter how many Teraflops the hardware can perform?
It doesn't at all, you are 100% right. However, it will still sell like hotcakes regardless of the route they take in terms of cross generation release and what they do or don't fix. After all this is teh company that released a title with 80% of it's car models from a generation before and still managed to shift millions of units!
 
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93
Brazil
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wrmedeiros
@Warte a great post and I don't really have much to add to most of your points.

I'm not sure if you are giving praise to GTS' FFB here, but if you are I would have to seriously disagree. It's FFB is poor, lacking in detail and a long way behind almost every other title that falls into the sim genre in one form or another.

You're right. I forgot to rephrase this part, and endorse what you said. My feeling is that if they can be competent with the controller, it can be done with the wheel. If it will be, well... :rolleyes:

In fact, I agree with your post 100%, especially the British tracks weather :lol:. I forgot to mention a proper car setup tuning feature, instead of the current one, so I add your point about the dampers, differential and other parts. And how I forgot about the aero!
 
246
Australia
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Some people say that the announcement trailer looked like GT Sport again but I just realised there were only 16 cars racing on Trial Mountain, and in GT Sport you can race against 20. :confused:
 
1,212
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JoshsoJB
@Warte a great post and I don't really have much to add to most of your points.


I'm not sure if you are giving praise to GTS' FFB here, but if you are I would have to seriously disagree. It's FFB is poor, lacking in detail and a long way behind almost every other title that falls into the sim genre in one form or another.



I would agree that it's not hardware limited, and I honestly don't know what the issue is with PD and AI, but not only do they seem incapable of putting a reasonable AI in place, they seem to be uninterested in doing so.



Again I would agree that it doesn't require a leap of hardware, as AC, ACC and Pcars show on the same console generations, however as things stand right now, PD are behind the development curve in terms of physics by a generation. It;s also not just the tyre model at issue, but also the damper and aero models, as well as a seeming inability to understand how LSD's work on FWD cars, hell the FWD and RR cars are just plain wrong and given how long that's been the case, again PD seem uninterested in fixing it



So what your suggesting is that PD go down the route that AC did originally, which is park weather and go for the evolution of the track surface over a race/race weekend. It's an interesting idea and would potentially make cross platform development easier. I just have little faith that PD could pull it off, and it would end up simply being a grip multiplier and nothing else and further hobbled by the physics issues the series has.

Oh and those sudden weather changes, they are just a real at a lot of European tracks, particularly the ones in the UK.


It doesn't at all, you are 100% right. However, it will still sell like hotcakes regardless of the route they take in terms of cross generation release and what they do or don't fix. After all this is teh company that released a title with 80% of it's car models from a generation before and still managed to shift millions of units!
I can't find anything on how LSD works for RR cars. Why is it different than FR?
 

CLowndes888

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The physics do need to be improved but it wouldn't require much work. All PD have to do is revert back to a previous version of it from 2 years ago, add in some kind of ground effect and improve the tyre model. It doesn't have to be groundbreaking, just logical.
 

LeGeNd-1

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This is what I dissagree with the most. Yes the CPU is an issue, I cannot think of a single PS2 game that comes remotely close to the number physical calculations per second that happen in GT Sport and a PS5 game utilising the PS5's CPU will outshine the PS4 in a big way.

While Gran Turismo isn't and never really has represented the pinnicle of realism, don't confuse that with it not having complex physics, and don't forgot that developing a game is about compromises as much as anything else. So you can say, let's improve the tyre physics model and double the number of values and calcualtions per second that go into that, you would then need to consider, can we do that with 20 cars on track at once or do we need to reduce the number of cars. Then there's, can we do that and also run the game at 60fps with the graphics we have at the resolution we want. The CPU has a say in all of it.

Assuming both a PS4 version and a PS5 version ran on the same physics model, and the PS5 version wasn't improved and taking advantage of the PS4, then the PS4 would absolutely be a bottleneck for the PS5 version.

Go back and look at how much the physics improved from GT1 and 2 to GT3 and 4 and then how they improved again in GT5 and 6 etc. These improvements were not possible on the previous generation consoles.

Sound is a complex issue and as much as it depends on what TV and/or speakers you have, one of the big pieces of hardward that has a big say in the matter is the console itself. Although it's less obvious for many people, as the TV speakers can often be the bottleneck, there are always improvements in potential sound quality with new consoles and technology. Someone with a realtively new top of the range speaker setup that they connect their TV to may find the console the bottleneck though, it will vary from case to case.

Hey sorry for the late reply. I was gone for a week and this thread moves by 17 pages :lol:

You do need a strong CPU to run a good simulation engine, but the requirements are not as high as you think. If you want to simulate aero for example, you don't model every single air molecule and how it interacts with every milimeter surface of the car. You model it using equations that simplify the process (the main one is downforce goes up with the square of speed), and apply it to each downforce generating element on the car (e.g. front splitter, rear wing, diffuser).

And as I said, even on the same platform (or equivalent PC) there are games that have done better in the physics department than GT, showing that PD doesn't even push the CPU to the max. For example:

GT1/2 - GP Legends (1998), Viper Racing (1998)

GT3/4 - Enthusia (PS2, 2005), Live For Speed (2003), NASCAR Racing 2003 by Papyrus (later forms the basis of iRacing's engine), all ISImotor sims (rFactor first released 2005 + all the derivatives GTL/GTR/GTR2/GTR Evo/Race07), Netkar Pro (2006, later became the base for AC)

GT5/6 - rFactor 2 (open beta 2012), Assetto Corsa (early access 2013), Raceroom (2013), PCARS (2015), Automobilista (2016, basically rFactor remastered, so it can even run on PS2 equivalent hardware)

GT Sport - PCARS 2 (2017), ACC (early access 2018), Automobilista 2 (2020, running PCARS Madness engine)

I agree there is a compromise with number of cars on track, but a lot of the games above do run the same or even more cars than GT. Also GT AI sometimes cheat with rubberbanding, so they're not even running the same detailed physics as the player most likely. I know for a fact that AC/ACC AI do run identical physics to the player, which is why both of those games are so CPU intensive (and ACC doesn't run well on standard PS4).

Trade off with graphics, I'm not sure the CPU does a lot to be honest. It's mainly GPU and RAM for loading textures. Also remember ACC & PCARS 2 has day/night and weather. Granted GTS looks better in static condition but I would gladly trade off some graphics fidelity for those features.

Same with sound. No matter how much CPU power you have, it's pointless if the sound sample and mixing aren't up to scratch.

Trust me, aside from graphics and loading times, PD's decisions have a bigger role than the platform in determining whether GT7 will be a good game or not ;)
 
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Dave A

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Hey sorry for the late reply. I was gone for a week and this thread moves by 17 pages :lol:

You do need a strong CPU to run a good simulation engine, but the requirements are not as high as you think. If you want to simulate aero for example, you don't model every single air molecule and how it interacts with every milimeter surface of the car. You model it using equations that simplify the process (the main one is downforce goes up with the square of speed), and apply it to each downforce generating element on the car (e.g. front splitter, rear wing, diffuser).

And as I said, even on the same platform (or equivalent PC) there are games that have done better in the physics department than GT, showing that PD doesn't even push the CPU to the max. For example:

GT1/2 - GP Legends (1998), Viper Racing (1998)

GT3/4 - Enthusia (PS2, 2005), Live For Speed (2003), NASCAR Racing 2003 by Papyrus (later forms the basis of iRacing's engine), all ISImotor sims (rFactor first released 2005 + all the derivatives GTL/GTR/GTR2/GTR Evo/Race07), Netkar Pro (2006, later became the base for AC)

GT5/6 - rFactor 2 (open beta 2012), Assetto Corsa (early access 2013), Raceroom (2013), PCARS (2015), Automobilista (2016, basically rFactor remastered, so it can even run on PS2 equivalent hardware)

GT Sport - PCARS 2 (2017), ACC (early access 2018), Automobilista 2 (2020, running PCARS Madness engine)

I agree there is a compromise with number of cars on track, but a lot of the games above do run the same or even more cars than GT. Also GT AI sometimes cheat with rubberbanding, so they're not even running the same detailed physics as the player most likely. I know for a fact that AC/ACC AI do run identical physics to the player, which is why both of those games are so CPU intensive (and ACC doesn't run well on standard PS4).

Trade off with graphics, I'm not sure the CPU does a lot to be honest. It's mainly GPU and RAM for loading textures. Also remember ACC & PCARS 2 has day/night and weather. Granted GTS looks better in static condition but I would gladly trade off some graphics fidelity for those features.

Same with sound. No matter how much CPU power you have, it's pointless if the sound sample and mixing aren't up to scratch.

Trust me, aside from graphics and loading times, PD's decisions have a bigger role than the platform in determining whether GT7 will be a good game or not ;)
I understand what you're saying, and I agree it's the combination of things that PD prioritise that are the problem. Also although certain games like Enthusia had great phsyics, they were not more complex than GT Sports are. I'm not saying the physics in each GT game are the best that they can be on that console, I'm saying that the improvements you can make to the physics on newer more powerful hardware are not possible on the older consoles.

Enthusia for example, a fantastic game, great physics for it's day, but the physics engine in't near as complex as GT Sports.

Take the next Forza Motorsport too, one of the things they are doing with thier physics model is improving the contact patch physics of the tyres from a single point to eight. That's for each tyre, for each car on the track at once. So in a 20 car grid that's the umber of variables increasing from 80 to 640, and that's just for the tyres alone. What if you double the refresh rate? Well, then not only have you multiplied the variable load by 8 but your pushing that load twice as fast.

None of this means you end up with a game that has a more realistic physics engine than other games around at the same time or even than Enthusia, it's what those variables output and how that affects the car on screen that determines that.

The CPU does impact the graphics, as although it's the GPU that processes those the instructions still have to go via the CPU. So the more you make the CPU work in one area, the less "time" it has to handle the instrucitons from the GPU. It also depends heavilly on how a game is programmed, some games send certain rendering instructions directly to the CPU.

We know GT Sport is pushing the PS4 hard, there's a picture somewhere showing it using 80%/90% of different cores on the CPU, 80%+ is bottlenecking territory. Worse than that, it's doing this at over 80°C. So without taking processing away from something, there genuinely isn't much headroom there. They could provide alot simply by reducing the frame rate from 60fps to 30fps sure, that's graphical change. But I can't see PD doing that.

I definitely agree with your final statement, it's the choices and direction PD choose to go in that determine which limitations they hit first. But that direction is unlikely to change for GT7, so my hopes of GT7 being what it can be on PS5 are not that great if it does release as a cross-gen title onPS4 too.
 
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37,049
Australia
The Bronx
SpacedustDaddy
I just watched the GT7 trailer again. You know, just because the clouds are changing an moving, doesn't necessarily mean rain is about to fall.
This could be the same as PD capturing all the constellations, with no weather.

We may have assumed weather was coming. We got rain and snow tyres in GTSPORT. We won't know until a proper interview with Kaz, what his vision is/was and what we get when the game debuts.
 

Scaff

Moderator
26,037
United Kingdom
He/Him
ScaffUK
ScaffGTP
I can't find anything on how LSD works for RR cars. Why is it different than FR?
I wasn't referring to RR with regards to LSDs, but FWD cars.

RR have a weight transfer issue, which is easy to see in that initial balance when you apply to much throttle on cornering isn't chronic understeer. It should be, i can happily quote Porsche on that point if required.
 
307
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Why would a PS4 version necessarily compromise the PS5 version? GT3 looked better than GT4 on the PS2 and GT5 looked and performed better than GT6 on the PS3. So I wouldn't be surprised if a PS4 version of GT7 would repeat this story against GT Sport, but with the PS5 version of GT7 being the new-generation experience it was always intended to be, cross-generation or not.

Last gen wouldn't be able to handle changeable weather or day/night cycle during races like current gen, so either they'll be no races with those conditions or last gen is gonna have to drop frames or resolution. Being a racing fan on the original Xbox S, this is a subject close to my heart and I think PD will have to work a miracle to keep both sets of fans happy.
 
456
Spain
Spain
We know GT Sport is pushing the PS4 hard, there's a picture somewhere showing it using 80%/90% of different cores on the CPU, 80%+ is bottlenecking territory. Worse than that, it's doing this at over 80°C. So without taking processing away from something, there genuinely isn't much headroom there. They could provide alot simply by reducing the frame rate from 60fps to 30fps sure, that's graphical change. But I can't see PD doing that.
They will not go for 30 FPS, I'm very confident of it. That would negatively impact too much on the car control and gameplay.
They will rather reduce resolution, do what they did GT5/GT6, work on non standard resolution and upscale it to 1080. Then remove or simplify graphical elements like smoke particles, dust, place simpler shadows and reflections, and even they may get rid of (or simplify) unnecessarily complex environment things like 3D trees. This should be enough
 
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