Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[sonnyboychris]

I wish PD would do something about its tyres, especially the feedback.

Also, I have had, on a few rare occasions, an anomaly pertaining to the grip of a particular tyre and it happened again early this week. Basically, in a car I know well, on Mediums, I had a disaster of a race due to total lack of grip. It was like I was driving around on Wets. Seriously.

I thought I must just be having a seriously bad day. However, I saw a YouTube vid from the great Martin “Tidgney” Grady yesterday. He was experiencing the same thing - on Wets at Spa but felt like he was still on slicks!

Anyone else experienced this?

I haven't Tidgney's video but I did learn (yesterday) that there's more grip off of the racing line in the wet. I tested it out (after learning about it in Sport/Spa) and it worked.

I was running intermediates and the water meter was about where you need to run Wets. Braking/accelerating on the racing line was terrible, it felt slick/greasy. But off of it, I had loads more grip.

 

[snc]

I haven't Tidgney's video but I did learn (yesterday) that there's more grip off of the racing line in the wet. I tested it out (after learning about it in Sport/Spa) and it worked.

I was running intermediates and the water meter was about where you need to run Wets. Braking/accelerating on the racing line was terrible, it felt slick/greasy. But off of it, I had loads more grip.

Yes wet lines are simulated in gt7

 

[wheelhp]

I drove the GT2 cars around the Red Bull Ring in ACC last night for an upcoming race and it highlighted the shortcomings of GT7's tyre model like never before. I know the Red Bull Ring very well as it's one of my favourite tracks, and the GT2 cars are unique in that they have less downforce than a GT3 car but produce more power, so the mechanical grip is more noticeable. I recall Martin Brundle saying that a certain amount of "slip" is required to get the car turned, and last night I understood what he was on about. As I steered through the corners, I could feel the tyres slipping across the surface of the road in a lot more detail compared to GT7. I've always known about the physical tyre model that ACC uses but I've never been able to get a proper feel for it because the downforce takes precedence over mechanical grip on a GT3 car. As a GT2 car has less aero, the quality of the tyre model really shines through and it's an absolute revelation. I was then reminded of the tyre model in the standard AC, which, despite being worse than ACC, is still ahead of GT7. To reach that next level of simulation, GT needs to change it's tyre model to a beam and node setup, with multiple points of contact feeding back into the physics engine. A faster refresh rate is also needed.

I'm not sure why this is still a revelation for people. You should know by now that GT7 is far behind the curve when it comes to racing simulations and driving physics. whats the point of laser scanned tracks if the physics aren't matching in fidelity?

Nobody even talks abouthow many points of contact are in the GT7 tyre model. Either it sucks or isnt known because it sucks. Every real sim has an ongoing debate on the tyre model. Yet you ask any bog standard GT7 player and they dont have a clue what a tire model is or what a good one looks like. They're likely also 12 years old. Majority of sim players moved on from GT7 a long time ago when they experienced the lack of detailed physics.

The only way GT7 stays relevant is on a console where the players are mostly stuck to a controller and couldn't tell a clean pass from a dirty one. Bigshot PC sims like ac acc and iracing hell even Live for speed... So many PC sims just completely embarass GT7 since day 1

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Yes wet lines are simulated in gt7

Wet lines are simulated yes, but only if the race starts dry and then progressively gets wetter. Apart from the normal line being slipperier due to the rubber buildup, your tyre also picks up marbles off line and this sorta gives it more "grooves" to clear the water better.

However, if the track is wet from the start (i.e. it has been raining for a while), it's faster to stick to the usual line. At this point the rubber on the normal racing line and the marbles off line has been washed off completely, so just take the normal racing line as usual to open up the corners. No extra grip to be had driving funky lines. As proven in this wet Spa TT a few months back, all of the top laps drive normal lines.


Also, I reckon the gap between inters and wets in GT is too small under full wet conditions (either that, or the track never gets to fully flooded conditions where inters are useless). Even at the 2nd bar of wetness there's only like 1-2 secs difference between inters and wets. But as soon as the track starts to dry, the wets just loses multiple seconds to the inters and degrades quickly. Combined with the accelerated weather, the inters is just a more versatile tyre overall because you'll be okay driving it anywhere from 1/3-2/3 wetness. Whereas the wets are only slightly better at 80% plus wetness (which rarely happens).

------------------

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update. Now if you mostly drive race cars with wings and slicks, it can be hard to detect. But I drive road cars on a daily basis on the Nordschleife on my route to tune every car in the game, so I noticed a few things has changed. Initially I thought it's just placebo effect but I have also been re-doing the Master Licenses recently and it's especially noticeable on the old cars with soft suspension and on dirt/snow. Last week's Daily A (MX5 at Willow Horse Thief) also shows quite a difference in car behaviour (I was rank 180 ish at the end so I spent quite some time here and can compare before/after update).

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.
• The Master License with Countach at last sector of Grand Valley is prime example of this (or any old car on undulating track). Pre update the heavy rear is very hard to tame and when you do breakaway it's very snappy. Now it's more progressive and you can maintain slides better. Still tricky to drive, but not manic and OTT like before.
• The MX5 at Willow is also obvious. The first turn with a dip at the apex can unsettle the car dramatically pre update, now it's less severe. Also coming out of all those 2nd gear hairpins it's very easy to induce oversteer before, now you can get away with a lot of throttle and if a slide does occur it's much smaller.
• A lot less understeer on snow/dirt. I suspected something changed when I did the Urus weekly challenge, but put it down to the SUV being exceptionally good offroad. Then I redid the snow license (Celica at last sector Lake Louise) and it's so easy to rotate the car now. No more terminal understeer, you can use scandi flicks to set up the car for corners as in real life. The car grips under acceleration and actually moves forward instead of just pinging off the rev limiter.

Now the bad part: I feel like the FFB has been toned down again. For reference I'm using T-GT, FFB Torque 3, FFB Sens 1. Road feel seems to be less detailed and there's a lot of centering spring feel. Tried increasing FFB Sens but it doesn't do much (seriously, I have never detected any difference with this setting between 1-10). It's not as numb as GT Sport, but pre update it was the best GT's FFB has gotten. Now it's kinda meh again. The cynic in me feels this is due to the new Fanatec GT DD Extreme's FullForce implementation and PD trying to get people to upgrade by nerfing FFB with other wheels. Or (more likely) the new more sedate suspension physics have muted the road feel. Either way, as people have said FFB is still miles behind titles such as AC/ACC. The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it's all just in my head but as a "road car specialist" some of the behaviour pre and post update are quite stark. I did drive a few Gr.3/4 and the GT-One TT (2 secs off top time, for reference), and the changes are much harder to detect with these stiffly sprung high grip cars. It's there, but only if you already know what to look for. If I only drive race cars (like a lot of people here) I probably would have missed the changes.

 

[Kriptical]

Wet lines are simulated yes, but only if the race starts dry and then progressively gets wetter. Apart from the normal line being slipperier due to the rubber buildup, your tyre also picks up marbles off line and this sorta gives it more "grooves" to clear the water better.

However, if the track is wet from the start (i.e. it has been raining for a while), it's faster to stick to the usual line. At this point the rubber on the normal racing line and the marbles off line has been washed off completely, so just take the normal racing line as usual to open up the corners. No extra grip to be had driving funky lines. As proven in this wet Spa TT a few months back, all of the top laps drive normal lines.


Also, I reckon the gap between inters and wets in GT is too small under full wet conditions (either that, or the track never gets to fully flooded conditions where inters are useless). Even at the 2nd bar of wetness there's only like 1-2 secs difference between inters and wets. But as soon as the track starts to dry, the wets just loses multiple seconds to the inters and degrades quickly. Combined with the accelerated weather, the inters is just a more versatile tyre overall because you'll be okay driving it anywhere from 1/3-2/3 wetness. Whereas the wets are only slightly better at 80% plus wetness (which rarely happens).

------------------

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update. Now if you mostly drive race cars with wings and slicks, it can be hard to detect. But I drive road cars on a daily basis on the Nordschleife on my route to tune every car in the game, so I noticed a few things has changed. Initially I thought it's just placebo effect but I have also been re-doing the Master Licenses recently and it's especially noticeable on the old cars with soft suspension and on dirt/snow. Last week's Daily A (MX5 at Willow Horse Thief) also shows quite a difference in car behaviour (I was rank 180 ish at the end so I spent quite some time here and can compare before/after update).

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.
• The Master License with Countach at last sector of Grand Valley is prime example of this (or any old car on undulating track). Pre update the heavy rear is very hard to tame and when you do breakaway it's very snappy. Now it's more progressive and you can maintain slides better. Still tricky to drive, but not manic and OTT like before.
• The MX5 at Willow is also obvious. The first turn with a dip at the apex can unsettle the car dramatically pre update, now it's less severe. Also coming out of all those 2nd gear hairpins it's very easy to induce oversteer before, now you can get away with a lot of throttle and if a slide does occur it's much smaller.
• A lot less understeer on snow/dirt. I suspected something changed when I did the Urus weekly challenge, but put it down to the SUV being exceptionally good offroad. Then I redid the snow license (Celica at last sector Lake Louise) and it's so easy to rotate the car now. No more terminal understeer, you can use scandi flicks to set up the car for corners as in real life. The car grips under acceleration and actually moves forward instead of just pinging off the rev limiter.

Now the bad part: I feel like the FFB has been toned down again. For reference I'm using T-GT, FFB Torque 3, FFB Sens 1. Road feel seems to be less detailed and there's a lot of centering spring feel. Tried increasing FFB Sens but it doesn't do much (seriously, I have never detected any difference with this setting between 1-10). It's not as numb as GT Sport, but pre update it was the best GT's FFB has gotten. Now it's kinda meh again. The cynic in me feels this is due to the new Fanatec GT DD Extreme's FullForce implementation and PD trying to get people to upgrade by nerfing FFB with other wheels. Or (more likely) the new more sedate suspension physics have muted the road feel. Either way, as people have said FFB is still miles behind titles such as AC/ACC. The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it's all just in my head but as a "road car specialist" some of the behaviour pre and post update are quite stark. I did drive a few Gr.3/4 and the GT-One TT (2 secs off top time, for reference), and the changes are much harder to detect with these stiffly sprung high grip cars. It's there, but only if you already know what to look for. If I only drive race cars (like a lot of people here) I probably would have missed the changes.

I can tell you that full force is not, in any way, implemented with the dd extreme yet and also that pd nerfed the ffb on the extreme the previous patch. With not a peep about it. Really have no idea whats going on with PD / Sony…

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I can tell you that full force is not, in any way, implemented with the dd extreme yet and also that pd nerfed the ffb on the extreme the previous patch. With not a peep about it. Really have no idea whats going on with PD / Sony…

Ok that's good to know the problem applies to all wheels and not just PD favouring Fanatec. But still perplexing why they decided to suddenly nerf the FFB. It's a real shame because somewhere beneath it the physics is as good as it's ever been, but there's no road feel and the center spring force just overpowers all the other useful physics information. I tried bumping up the Torque to 4 but you just get too much clipping. Down to Torque 2 and the wheel is limp like it's broken. So frustrating.

 

[Yes No]

Ok that's good to know the problem applies to all wheels and not just PD favouring Fanatec. But still perplexing why they decided to suddenly nerf the FFB. It's a real shame because somewhere beneath it the physics is as good as it's ever been, but there's no road feel and the center spring force just overpowers all the other useful physics information. I tried bumping up the Torque to 4 but you just get too much clipping. Down to Torque 2 and the wheel is limp like it's broken. So frustrating.

They put a cap of around 7nm on the Logitech G Pro and claimed it was for "safety" reasons.

It's bs and really have no clue why they would do that. Other games like ACC and Wreckfest do not have a cap on the Logitech and probably don't have a cap on the Fanatec either(don't have it so I can only assume).

I'm using a drivehub with my G Pro for GT7 since my wheel is pc only. Drivehub added a feature starting with beta 13 that will increase the FFB up to the full 11nm torque for the G Pro. I've been using it for a month at the full 11nm torque along with trueforce at 100, controller vibration at 125, FFB torque and sensitivity (in game) at 10 and have not felt anything unsafe so far. The only thing I've noticed was a high amount of oscillation when using a high downforce car like the Porsche 962C.... I was able to get rid of most of the oscillation by setting the FFB filter to 1.

I guess I could understand if they put a disclaimer and agreement in the game that warns players of a possibility (though very low) of injury before allowing them to go to full torque. Putting a locked cap in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have no clue if the current firmware for the drivehub supports Fanatec wheels getting past the cap, but I'd imagine that it would be possible. Here is a link to the drivehub thread if anyone wants to go over there and ask if they could add the torque boost feature for Fanatec wheels (I've never used Fanatec so I really don't have a clue if it's even possible but wouldn't hurt to ask).

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter (see my review & score Drive Hub for yourself) From Collective Minds, the clever people behind the CronusMax Plus PS4 Wheel Edition comes the Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter. "Drive Hub is a revolutionary, industry-first cross over gaming adapter that makes...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[LeGeNd-1]

They put a cap of around 7nm on the Logitech G Pro and claimed it was for "safety" reasons.

It's bs and really have no clue why they would do that. Other games like ACC and Wreckfest do not have a cap on the Logitech and probably don't have a cap on the Fanatec either(don't have it so I can only assume).

I'm using a drivehub with my G Pro for GT7 since my wheel is pc only. Drivehub added a feature starting with beta 13 that will increase the FFB up to the full 11nm torque for the G Pro. I've been using it for a month at the full 11nm torque along with trueforce at 100, controller vibration at 125, FFB torque and sensitivity (in game) at 10 and have not felt anything unsafe so far. The only thing I've noticed was a high amount of oscillation when using a high downforce car like the Porsche 962C.... I was able to get rid of most of the oscillation by setting the FFB filter to 1.

I guess I could understand if they put a disclaimer and agreement in the game that warns players of a possibility (though very low) of injury before allowing them to go to full torque. Putting a locked cap in the game just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have no clue if the current firmware for the drivehub supports Fanatec wheels getting past the cap, but I'd imagine that it would be possible. Here is a link to the drivehub thread if anyone wants to go over there and ask if they could add the torque boost feature for Fanatec wheels (I've never used Fanatec so I really don't have a clue if it's even possible but wouldn't hurt to ask).

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter

Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter (see my review & score Drive Hub for yourself) From Collective Minds, the clever people behind the CronusMax Plus PS4 Wheel Edition comes the Drive Hub Racing Wheel Converter. "Drive Hub is a revolutionary, industry-first cross over gaming adapter that makes...

www.gtplanet.net

The problem isn't the strength, it's the detail. I'm using T-GT at Torque 3 and it's already powerful enough for me. Anything more than that and the FFB starts to clip. Anything lower and it's too weak. So Torque 3 is perfect. The problem is before the update I get good road and suspension feel, whereas now it's back to old numb GT FFB where the track feels like glass, coupled with this weird centering spring effect that makes the FFB feel non-linear.

Maybe on DD wheel it's different but the actual wheel torque itself has never been an issue for me (even back when I was using a dinky old Logitech G25). It's the detail that has always been missing in GT. Playing AC/ACC with G25 it gives me more detail than playing GT7 with T-GT.

 

[Yes No]

The problem isn't the strength, it's the detail. I'm using T-GT at Torque 3 and it's already powerful enough for me. Anything more than that and the FFB starts to clip. Anything lower and it's too weak. So Torque 3 is perfect. The problem is before the update I get good road and suspension feel, whereas now it's back to old numb GT FFB where the track feels like glass, coupled with this weird centering spring effect that makes the FFB feel non-linear.

Maybe on DD wheel it's different but the actual wheel torque itself has never been an issue for me (even back when I was using a dinky old Logitech G25). It's the detail that has always been missing in GT. Playing AC/ACC with G25 it gives me more detail than playing GT7 with T-GT.

Yeah I totally understand. I just figured I'd mention that part about the DD wheels. I haven't had any issue with clipping or loss of detail with my setup... Trueforce is a very different experience that really focuses on the detail (at least in my opinion). If full force ever gets implemented, I'd be willing to bet that it will feel very similar to the trueforce. I really can't think of any good advice to give you about the loss of detail in your wheel, I guess that's just how it's going to be unless PD does something to fix it.

 

[sonnyboychris]

The new physics is a step in the right direction, but PD really need to get a leg up on FFB (and give us more adjustment sliders) in GT8.

Naw, they need to give it to us now. We've sat through two generations of garbage FFB and I'm tired of saying "maybe next time". Before we know it, we'll be on here saying "maybe we'll get it in GT12...".

BTW, I loved everything about your post in its entirety.

 

[Td04]

Just come back on the game After 1 year and doing some session,on both gt7 and AC, with same Cars on Laguna seca to comparing them (ps5).
Are people still here saying bull****s about the better ac's tyre and suspension model?
Are we playing the same game? Cause gt7 is way better than ac.

Tyre and suspension model are both a disaster on ac.

 

[LSFDRX]

I'm not sure why this is still a revelation for people. You should know by now that GT7 is far behind the curve when it comes to racing simulations and driving physics. whats the point of laser scanned tracks if the physics aren't matching in fidelity?

Nobody even talks abouthow many points of contact are in the GT7 tyre model. Either it sucks or isnt known because it sucks. Every real sim has an ongoing debate on the tyre model. Yet you ask any bog standard GT7 player and they dont have a clue what a tire model is or what a good one looks like. They're likely also 12 years old. Majority of sim players moved on from GT7 a long time ago when they experienced the lack of detailed physics.

The only way GT7 stays relevant is on a console where the players are mostly stuck to a controller and couldn't tell a clean pass from a dirty one. Bigshot PC sims like ac acc and iracing hell even Live for speed... So many PC sims just completely embarass GT7 since day 1

Oh boy, we're twelve year olds? Says the guy whining on a forum about video games. You know, I think the median age for GT7 is the oldest it's ever been, so take that for what it's worth. You'll find the kids playing FH5, and that game has the worst physics of any "driving" game in existence.

I don't think anyone is saying that GT7 has physics that rival iRacing or ACC, but it's still a great driving game with a decent handling model that can inform good race craft. It can serve as a jumping off point for those who want to get into more serious racing titles, or be the only car game someone plays. It is also well documented that GT7s tire physics make traction blending a lot sharper, making oversteer snappy, quick, and hard to catch which informs fast reactions and correction which leads to players jumping from GT7 to other titles being pretty good at dealing with more realistic slip-angle management. I.E. GT7 teaches better car control, even if it is based on less realistic traits.

There are many things you don't seem to understand about GT7 and sims in general. GT7 is a bridge game, accessible to basically anyone with a PlayStation, and it can be a good tool for getting better at driving/sim racing. It also facilitates players like me that have real life experience driving cars on tracks and use a nice wheel in VR... that's a broad scope. I'm not even going to get into how many copies of GT have sold in comparison to other "sim" titles, as that is a blowout in favor of GT by miiiiles. And you talk about "relevance"... haha.

GT7 is also a car enthusiast platform, with many things to do that don't involve driving cars. Car nuts like me love that stuff, even if there is still a lot of things we desire in this area as well.

These sim titles you say are so much more "relevant" aren't. They are very niche. If you aren't into sim racing, you don't even know they exist. Yes, ACC and iR have much more detail in track surface, temps, setups and steering feedback, but they are also severely limiting titles with either a lack of car content (ACC is only GT cars, AC is old, both need wheels) or have steep barriers to entry (iR payout model is expensive and gatekeepy, also need a wheel and decent rig to play). Let's not forget that there are many well documented issues with those games too, and one only needs to wade into their forums for a moment to see people like you complaining about nuanced details like it's the end of the world, and that don't really matter at all.

I guess you're free to keep ranting about how GT7 stacks up as a "sim" title, but you're yelling into the ether. "Real" sim racers (lol) will stick to serious titles, and most casuals will stick to games like GT7, BUT there will always be a LARGE cross over between the two, because those of us with open minds don't feel the need to bash either based on what they can/can't do. I love the detailed handling that ACC provides, and ALSO love the whole world of automotive enthusiasm that GT7 represents and have a lot of fun with the physics within it.

Remember, comparison is the thief of joy, so go ahead and hang out with the "adults" in the forums related to those "real" sim games and leave us "kids" alone. Haha.

 

[Iso Octane]

Moving on to another topic, I'm surprised no one noticed the physics has been slightly changed with the last update.

Summarising the changes:

• Weight transfer seems to have been toned down again.
• Tyre grip loss is more progressive e.g. blending between trail braking to cornering is less severe than before, and also on comfort/sport tyres when you oversteer it's easier to hold a nice 4 wheel drift.

• 
  Until I saw your post, I thought it was just me improving my drifting skills and adapting to the game better. Genuinely, that's what I've been thinking! Maybe it was improvements in the game after all.
  
  One of my favorite things to do is drive around stock road cars with CS tires on to accentuate the way they lose grip and enjoy their different characters. Sliding them around is always on the menu. I didn't notice any physics changes as I've always been able to previously, but I can definitely hold, modulate, and power out of slides much better these days. So maybe it was physics changes... Regardless I'm finding it really enjoyable to drive around in GT7 as od late.

 

[PlanetJanet]

Spoiler alert: I'm currently on a train, bored and what I would call 'moderately pissed'.

But it fascinates me that people have such strong opinions about the physics model of GT7 vs other sims. I suspect I am quite representative of the GT player base: a man, in the 30+ age bracket, and from a fairly well developed economy. I have a car, and have driven many others, but rarely in anger and never truly in the pursuit of speed around a track (not sure a track day counts when I was 21 and crapping my pants ).

GT7 feels natural and pretty good to me. I can't really argue for its accuracy, or argue its merits vs other sims, since I neither race real cars nor play other sims. But if you listen to the opinions of those who do, and admittedly I am talking about streamers for the most part, it seems that the general consensus on GT7 is that the physics are pretty good. Not perfect, and clearly elements of real driving have been simplified in order to cater for as wide an audience as possible, but the actual experience of driving a car seems to have been simulated quite effectively.

I therefore find it incredibly interesting that certain sections of the sim racing community continue to pour such scorn on GT7. Clearly there are differences between all games but is GT7 really so different from iR and ACC in terms of the skills required to be good?