Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Brego]

It's the velcro on the barriers....

I also noticed the magnetic velcro glue, but the forced 180 bothers me more.

 

[jrbabbitt]

I also noticed the magnetic velcro glue, but the forced 180 bothers me more.

Guess we all have to deal with it or just don't hit the barriers....

 

[Brego]

Back to the 180 thing. Is it just me, or is this something others are noticing too?

 

[jrbabbitt]

Back to the 180 thing. Is it just me, or is this something others are noticing too?

This issue has been around since Gran Turismo Sport...Plenty of us have noticed and a few even complained/questioned about it...

 

[ScottPuss20]

I've noticed that the cars bottom out more frequently and with greater consequences than in the past. You have to be more careful when attacking curbs and ripple strips or you will lose control. It's a small addition but a welcome one.

 

[sejtur]

Am I the only one that notices how often a spin out or collision or contact with a wall/barrier results in the car coming to rest facing exactly 180 degrees the wrong way? I'm calling shenanigans. It's not physics and it's not even an attempt at physics, it is a philosophical decision being forced onto the player. For me it crosses the line from GT7 as simulator, to just another game.

When the tires slide out due to touching the grass or whatever, I'm not fighting to regain control of the vehicle, I'm 100% just trying to prevent the end result of facing 180 the wrong way and seeing limited results.

There’s an option you can adjust in time trial and custom races. Correct crash course or something like that. I’m away now so I can’t check, but I think that’s the option when switched off, will make those physics natural.

 

[Theufcveteran]

There’s an option you can adjust in time trial and custom races. Correct crash course or something like that. I’m away now so I can’t check, but I think that’s the option when switched off, will make those physics natural.

I believe what that does if I'm thinking of the right thing, is point your car forward if you crash too far off track. I think @Brego is talking about the car ending up in the opposite direction through potentially intentional crash physics, without any hard cuts to being reset back to the track.

 

[AutumnalGlow]

Am I the only one that notices how often a spin out or collision or contact with a wall/barrier results in the car coming to rest facing exactly 180 degrees the wrong way? I'm calling shenanigans. It's not physics and it's not even an attempt at physics, it is a philosophical decision being forced onto the player. For me it crosses the line from GT7 as simulator, to just another game.

When the tires slide out due to touching the grass or whatever, I'm not fighting to regain control of the vehicle, I'm 100% just trying to prevent the end result of facing 180 the wrong way and seeing limited results.

It's the most frustrating part of crashing in this game. I'm fine with losing speed and getting damage, but I'm better off not even trying to save a crash because they're scripted to always point you the other way. Seems it was intended as some kind of punishment, but isn't going off the track and losing control punishment enough? Part of racing is recovering from those mistakes. They're going to happen, you're meant to do what you can to stay safe when it does. GT7 takes all control from you and decides which way you'll end up. It's not fun, it's not realistic, it's more dangerous to the other drivers, and it's an unnecessary punishment. I wish they'd take it out.

 

[Brego]

It's the most frustrating part of crashing in this game. I'm fine with losing speed and getting damage, but I'm better off not even trying to save a crash because they're scripted to always point you the other way. Seems it was intended as some kind of punishment, but isn't going off the track and losing control punishment enough? Part of racing is recovering from those mistakes. They're going to happen, you're meant to do what you can to stay safe when it does. GT7 takes all control from you and decides which way you'll end up. It's not fun, it's not realistic, it's more dangerous to the other drivers, and it's an unnecessary punishment. I wish they'd take it out.

This exactly. Thanks.

It's excessively punitive imo. Most of the time, there is no point in continuing. If the car were landed at an angle sometimes, you might get back on the road with a 6 second loss, but a 3-point turn means... reset. If they are going to punish like that, stop wasting my time and just go directly to restart like the license exams.

Or if thats too harsh, bring out the ambulance and recovery crew, stop the race, haul the driver out and tow the car away. either way, the race is effectively over most of the time.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Am I the only one that notices how often a spin out or collision or contact with a wall/barrier results in the car coming to rest facing exactly 180 degrees the wrong way? I'm calling shenanigans. It's not physics and it's not even an attempt at physics, it is a philosophical decision being forced onto the player. For me it crosses the line from GT7 as simulator, to just another game.

When the tires slide out due to touching the grass or whatever, I'm not fighting to regain control of the vehicle, I'm 100% just trying to prevent the end result of facing 180 the wrong way and seeing limited results.

Seems to me, this is a Power Pack addition to avoid issues with Sophy getting stuck. By having the cars always end up pointing at the track., it eliminates the AI getting confused on how to get back to the track after a spin.

IMHO, a better solution for the AI would have been to replace it on the track once the player is outside the viewable distance. As it stands, I agree that this magically perfect recovery breaks the immersion.

 

[Brego]

Seems to me, this is a Power Pack addition to avoid issues with Sophy getting stuck. By having the cars always end up pointing at the track., it eliminates the AI getting confused on how to get back to the track after a spin.

IMHO, a better solution for the AI would have been to replace it on the track once the player is outside the viewable distance. As it stands, I agree that this magically perfect recovery breaks the immersion.

I think you misunderstand. This is non-sequitar with what I am talking about. I don't even have powerpack, and according to others, the issue predates sophy by years.

 

[Nebuc72]

I've never noticed this be a thing. The direction I end up facing after a spin seems pretty consistent with how I'd expect it to be with no external influence.

Obviously you end up forwards or backwards more often than sideways because that's the direction the tyres are travelling and so is where they will grip up again, but I don't think the game favours that being backwards, at least it's not something I've ever noticed.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I think you misunderstand. This is non-sequitar with what I am talking about. I don't even have powerpack, and according to others, the issue predates sophy by years.

Hmm.. I didn't notice it before. Either way, it is still a huge benefit to the AI, Sophy or otherwise. That's the only reason I can see it added.

 

[Kriptical]

I’ve actually found spec 3 on a dd+(15nm), to be some of the best driving the game has offered. Grip loss has been progressive and most things are catchable/savable, and this is dominately relying on muscle memory from driving, which is great. Why I bought the DD+ in fact. Any time I’ve swapped ends has felt pretty normal and mostly could be blamed on being on the end of a long run and fatigued.

As for the dd+, I play exclusively in VR and believe that lends my brain to being a little more susceptible to the quirks of each car relative to the FFB. Happy to say that after reading this article I hopped on the game and pulled out that convertible porsche from the 60’s. Forget the name. The steering was unique, light but not too much..a little sloppy as some cars are.. You could feel a little of that old car fun vibe in it. Then without touching any settings did the ferrari challenge from this week’s daily’s and that car was completely different. Modern, aggressive, again felt like it was supposed too. While I can’t speak to the accuracy each ffb model was unique and suited to the respective cars. Additionally, they were both significantly more drivable than pre spec3 GT7. You could feel the road, the brakes, all that good stuff. While further refinement and improvement are great, its worth saying again, especially with how unfun the pre-spec3 driving was, how good the ffb/physics implementation is presently. Its got me logging in every day again. Regular cars have a reason to be driven. It’s good stuff!

 

[Brego]

Hmm.. I didn't notice it before. Either way, it is still a huge benefit to the AI, Sophy or otherwise. That's the only reason I can see it added.

It effectively ends the race much of the time. How is that a benefit in any way?

 

[newmedia_dev]

It effectively ends the race much of the time. How is that a benefit in any way?

Just to be very honest here, crashing is the problem, Sophy doesn’t crash a lot nor do the really fast guys, so barrier physics is masking the bigger issue…run at pace consistently and don’t crash? It’s not rocket science

I have a really low tolerance to these things. Run the pace and don’t crash. It’s racing 101, drive crashing is something frequent is just shifting cause and effect.

People need to own the way they drive first and then blame mechanics second.

 

[Voodoovaj]

It effectively ends the race much of the time. How is that a benefit in any way?

If the AI end up in a predictable angle to the track, it's easier for them to rejoin. Reduces the chances of them getting stuck if they spin out. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the player, we just happen to use the same physics.

 

[Brego]

If the AI end up in a predictable angle to the track, it's easier for them to rejoin. Reduces the chances of them getting stuck if they spin out. Like I said, it has nothing to do with the player, we just happen to use the same physics.

That is not what I am talking about at all.

 

[Voodoovaj]

That is not what I am talking about at all.

Actually it is. I've added your original post.

Am I the only one that notices how often a spin out or collision or contact with a wall/barrier results in the car coming to rest facing exactly 180 degrees the wrong way? I'm calling shenanigans. It's not physics and it's not even an attempt at physics, it is a philosophical decision being forced onto the player. For me it crosses the line from GT7 as simulator, to just another game.

When the tires slide out due to touching the grass or whatever, I'm not fighting to regain control of the vehicle, I'm 100% just trying to prevent the end result of facing 180 the wrong way and seeing limited results.

..and what I am saying is that, yes, this is "shenanigans" and it's likely added to prevent the AI from getting stuck after an accident. You are trying to fight this obviously intentionally created scenario. It would be silly to implement this for players, because we can work out how to regain the track. The AI isn't as clever and a known starting point woudl help it immensely.

 

[Brego]

Actually it is. I've added your original post.

..and what I am saying is that, yes, this is "shenanigans" and it's likely added to prevent the AI from getting stuck after an accident. You are trying to fight this obviously intentionally created scenario. It would be silly to implement this for players, because we can work out how to regain the track. The AI isn't as clever and a known starting point woudl help it immensely.

I'm not talking about the AI. When I am driving MY car, the end result is MY CAR consistently facing 180 the wrong way, requiring usually a 3 point turn. Has absolutely nothing to do with AI.

Like I said, much of the time it ends the race because it will be impossible to make up that kind of deficit. FOR ME TO MAKE IT UP. For the record: I am not driving an AI car, just in case that is causing any confusion.

When I said: "It effectively ends the race much of the time." OBVIOUSLY I am not talking about an AI car getting stuck. Exactly how are you thinking that would that end the race? In what way? How does that apply? An AI car could be stuck for the entire race and it would make zero difference except for the field missing one car.

Serious question: Are you intentionally posting for your enjoyment at my expense? Is this some weird attempt at making a random person mad on the internet?

It is offensive in the highest for you to suggest I don't even know what I am thinking, and you have to correct me on what my own thoughts are.

 

[NAXEHT]

Can we have some videos of this thing? Sounds strange and not familiar at all.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm not talking about the AI. When I am driving MY car, the end result is MY CAR consistently facing 180 the wrong way, requiring usually a 3 point turn. Has absolutely nothing to do with AI.

Dude, it's the SAME PHYSICS. There isn't a physics engine for the player, and a separate one for the AI. YOUR car ends up like that because of what was likely implemented to address and AI issue.

The AI drives the same cars you do.

 

[Famine]

Obviously you end up forwards or backwards more often than sideways because that's the direction the tyres are travelling

Is essentially the right answer.

A car is in a stable state going forwards or backwards, and requires far less energy to push in either direction than any other. Every part of the suspension geometry as well as the tyres is designed for longitudinal stability. With no external influence of any kind (like smashing into something, and without sufficient energy to tuck under and flip) even if you let go of the wheel entirely and don't brake, a spinning car will end up not spinning any more and roll forwards or backwards.

As for why it does so in or against the direction of the track, it boils down to you trying to recover it in the intended direction and the significant inertia (and rhythm...) of the car being in that direction. Your inputs will attempt recover it to that plane, and about half the time you'll end up recovering it the wrong way about as the car settles into a stable state - requiring more energy (which has been lost in the process) to point it the right way. You'll likely just remember the times it ended up like that more than the times you recover it correctly if you're convinced it does it like that: confirmation bias.


No idea what the AI has to do with it though.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Just 360 no scope style it out 😎 that’s what I do.

 

[Brego]

Is essentially the right answer.

A car is in a stable state going forwards or backwards, and requires far less energy to push in either direction than any other. Every part of the suspension geometry as well as the tyres is designed for longitudinal stability. With no external influence of any kind (like smashing into something, and without sufficient energy to tuck under and flip) even if you let go of the wheel entirely and don't brake, a spinning car will end up not spinning any more and roll forwards or backwards.

As for why it does so in or against the direction of the track, it boils down to you trying to recover it in the intended direction and the significant inertia (and rhythm...) of the car being in that direction. Your inputs will attempt recover it to that plane, and about half the time you'll end up recovering it the wrong way about as the car settles into a stable state - requiring more energy (which has been lost in the process) to point it the right way. You'll likely just remember the times it ended up like that more than the times you recover it correctly if you're convinced it does it like that: confirmation bias.


No idea what the AI has to do with it though.

I have to disagree. If the car were travelling in a strait line -maybe- but a spinout or barrier contact happens when the car is anything but travelling in a strait line with the track. And as for correction, when I am trying to correct, my efforts are 100% going towards achieving any result other than the apparant penalty result, and not usually successful at it. Third, when it happens it feels very unnatural.

If you were correct, then it should just as often come to rest pointing in the right direction. I believe the car should come to rest at an entirely random orientation, because the conditions are essentially random. If I contact the grass on a turn or contact a barrier coming out of one, or get bumped by an AI at an inconvenient spot... These are all different setups, and they all produce the same result.

I'll keep score for awhile, until I have maybe 20 spinouts and results.

 

[newmedia_dev]

I have to disagree. If the car were travelling in a strait line -maybe- but a spinout or barrier contact happens when the car is anything but travelling in a strait line with the track. And as for correction, when I am trying to correct, my efforts are 100% going towards achieving any result other than the apparant penalty result, and not usually successful at it. Third, when it happens it feels very unnatural.

If you were correct, then it should just as often come to rest pointing in the right direction. I believe the car should come to rest at an entirely random orientation, because the conditions are essentially random. If I contact the grass on a turn or contact a barrier coming out of one, or get bumped by an AI at an inconvenient spot... These are all different setups, and they all produce the same result.

I'll keep score for awhile, until I have maybe 20 spinouts and results.

Which way was the car travelling when you hit the barrier?

The same direction as the track flow?

Why do rotating wheels travel freely….

There is some sticky barrier physics and I’d concede that, but the cars aren’t artificially spun in the ways you are describing.

I’ll go back to my salient point, hitting the barriers is a you thing, hit less barriers get less issues with barriers 🤷‍♂️

 

[ZevZoq]

no, it wouldn't come to rest at an entirely random orientation because you are still driving the car even when it's spinning and you still impact it's course even though it feels like you don't. You are trying to correct it's course while it's spinning and your efforts have an effect.

I've spun lots, and I've never really felt like the game enters some sort of canned effect mode when I do. It always feels like I'm still having an effect on what's happening, and in fact I'm quite often able to end up facing the right direction. Occasionally I'm able to do so without a huge loss of momentum even...

 

[Voodoovaj]

No idea what the AI has to do with it though.

Just conjecture based on what we know of Sophy, and what I've seen by forcing it onto track that don't support it. A great example is taking the Unimog to Catalunya. When the Unimogs get the hairpin at the end of the lap, all hell breaks loose.

Sophy is "trained" on the tracks, where as Reggie seems to be using more traditional path finding. When Reggie goes off track, it finds it's way back fairly quickly (even before GT7). But, if you confuse Sophy, it's a larger issue. Without the training on where to go, it gets lost and starts turning around trying to figure out how to get back on track. It's a bad look.

With a spinning car, the result at the end of the spin can be an infinite amount of rotation angles relative to the track. This likely causes Sophy some degree of confusion (I say likely because, again, I am guess based on what I see in the game). A 1 degree difference in angle can be the difference between rejoining without issue, or endlessly searching for where to go. By forcing the cars to always come to rest in a (fairly) predictable way, it avoids presenting an issue for Sophy.

And, as we all know, the physics in the same for AI and player, so we end up with this correction as well.

 

[newmedia_dev]

This was 2 years ago, Sophy doesn’t end up in barriers unless they make it part of the model.

I think people don’t realise that Sophy is faster than all of us, it’s them restraining it to make it raceable for us is the actual challenge.

 

[05XR8]

This was 2 years ago, Sophy doesn’t end up in barriers unless they make it part of the model.

I think people don’t realise that Sophy is faster than all of us, it’s them restraining it to make it raceable for us is the actual challenge.

Exactly. It was the biggest gripe/worry from players when we all saw SOPHY debut versus World Tour players. We saw Terminator SOPHY. We thought that version would be in the game, but we got Terminator 2 “reprogrammed model 101 T-800” SOPHY. The SOPHY 3.0 is Terminator: Dark Fate “Carl” SOPHY.