Gran Turismo Car Models Now Made in Three Months, Outsourced to India

[TBR 427]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

Gran Turismo Car Models Now Made in Three Months, Outsourced to India

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on September 12th, 2020 in the Gran Turismo Series category.

The key point there is that we have confirmation that only the mid-poly work was done, if I'm reading that right.

So the one thing that GT fans have been holding against Forza for years is now being used by PD, as if it makes financial and practical sense to employ professionals from other places instead of moving them to Japan for in-house work. Hopefully they do the same for tracks, so that we can go back to the richness of content found in GT4 without waiting for decades.

Typically it makes financial and practical sense under these two conditions:
1: You're a small enough company to not justify hiring/funding/training a modelling/art dept full-time.
2: You're a large company that experiences large fluctuations in asset requirements / staff numbers as you go through cycles of projects.

For a company like PD, who...just makes GT games, always has need of a full-strength art dept, has no reason to idle/lay off the art dept.
This has to be a financial decision - cheaper assets elsewhere might save management some bux. Though 3d modellers aren't that expensive as game-devs go? I can't see this being a smart idea long-term. What's japanese for Executive Department Manager Karen?

But it's funny nonetheless how much negativity was spewed towards outsourcing in the past.

You...can't think of any reason why outsourcing had negativity spewed towards it in the past?

Leaving mid poly work to outsource is a good compromise cause the majority of the detail we see in gameplay is high poly work that PD develops and therefore the shell that is most important of the vehicle model is of PD quality.

So if this is the case, and I think it is, you're right about this being low-risk. If PD supplies the scans and hi-poly or tesselation-ready meshes, that means two things:
The vast potential for inaccuracy is gone - they can overlay their mid-poly with PD's hipoly and if it lines up, then it's accurate.
The outsourced models aren't being used for the up-close beauty shots, so they won't be under high scrutiny.

I did not believe that when he said it.
These days its all about 3d scan.

I say - a talented designer has one 3d model finished within a work week.
3 or even 6 months is ridicolous.

Not to GT quality.

And strictly speaking a designer wouldn't be doing modelling, since that's the modelers job.
A lot of people think that 3d scanning gives perfect models. Perfect in that the overall shape is good, but the mesh itself is often complete garbage.

I'm sure if I ask you to put forward at least one example of an outsourced car from Forza that looks bad, you wouldn't have one available. I'm also willing to bet if we had the CAD models available in front of us with no shaders or lighting, anyone would have a hard time telling which is which.

Comparing to full CAD models would be really easy (if you had a machine that could load a >100GB car model, lol). Easiest would be the interior - not only would every bevel and fillet on every switch knob and dial be perfectly shaped, but the materials for seats/stitching would be garbage!

Examples? You're probably going by the less realistic lighting engine which makes the models look less realistic, not the models themselves.

Too easy.

Not even sure if it's (F7) outsourced.

It can take week to model a car in Alias but if you're working with Maya / Blender it can take pretty long.

Modelling a detailed car is tricky personally, been doing it for 5 years. Takes time managing where and how the vertices will be for positioned for a clean surface and to work with subdivision. It can become a mess if its not planned right.

Having things work with subdivision/tesselation is a special pain in the backside, especially when you've got things like fuel fillers, door seams and other panel gaps to deal with. Often there's just no good clean solution, especially if those idiot car designers put curved seams/gaps in the middle of my nice clean surfaces.

We never jumped to the conclusion that the S660, 911 Carrera CS and the Tundra were outsourced when they were added to the game. Doesn't that put the "outsourcing = bad" mantra to bed? If we were never told about the outsourcing, we'd think that PD created the models.

Probably because nobody used the S660 or Tundra for more than 5 minutes in the Beginner Events. And if the only time you see the outsourced models for the 911 is in a race and the car's between 10 and 50m away from you....

 

[ImaRobot]

C'mon now, we all know that's how it's gonna end up if you let it continue. Endless argument of which one is the best is so tiring at this point.

It's literally not even about what is best because we only know a handful from one game. It makes absolutely no sense for you to even try to spin it this way. It's going to turn this way because of people like you, that's it. It's literally just showing that outsourcing is a viable plan to go forward with because it'll only help and very likely wont detract from anything. That you can't comprehend that, again, isn't anyone else's issue than your own. You're the only one making an "endless argument" about it like that so far. If you want to misconceive the situation, and if it's an issue for you, then remove yourself and let everyone have their discussion.

You...can't think of any reason why outsourcing had negativity spewed towards it in the past?

I think you missed the point, in the past it wasn't mixed opinions of it being good or bad. Everyone hated it, and it was a major selling point people would use to drag other games through the dust. Now the consensus has obviously changed and looks to tip more in favor of it not being that bad of a thing.

Too easy.

Not even sure if it's (F7) outsourced.

So where's the easy part? It would be nice if you could elaborate on what's inaccurate compared to real life rather than a comparison to each other and showing what you're talking about. On top of that, no one is saying that it doesn't pop its head in, but that the issue is not a common place thing like most are saying. Nor is it isolated to outsourcing.

Probably because nobody used the S660 or Tundra for more than 5 minutes in the Beginner Events. And if the only time you see the outsourced models for the 911 is in a race and the car's between 10 and 50m away from you....

That's unlikely. People analyze and look in depth to these models all the time especially within photomode. Hell, even @emula has a thread literally dedicated to that. It's more likely because it's not noticeable rather than you thinking that no one uses them. Which falls in line with the vast majority of outsourced models in the other games in the discussion.

 

[Castrol96]

Honestly, PD should've began Outsourcing when the PS3 era began. They would've been ahead of the game.

 

[Sage Ages]

I'm not terribly familiar with this field so feel free to correct me, but I assume that a decent chunk of how the model is gonna turn out is dependent of the requirements/budgets of the game in question, and the reference materials that have been provided.

You could have an outsourcing studio work on three different games and you'll end up with three very different models.

 

[Castrol96]

If its Mid to Low poly work I wouldn't mind doing it at all.

 

[Samus]

I'm not terribly familiar with this field so feel free to correct me, but I assume that a decent chunk of how the model is gonna turn out is dependent of the requirements/budgets of the game in question, and the reference materials that have been provided.

You could have an outsourcing studio work on three different games and you'll end up with three very different models.

Pretty much. Hypothetically if a modeller made the same car for Project CARS and Gran Turismo the two resulting models would have a lot of differences because of the different requirements and ethos of each company. PDs model would require minute detail on the visible parts of the car whilst the model made for pCARS would be less detailed but have the drivetrain, suspension and other areas under the skin fully modelled for the benefit of the damage system in pCARS, something PD wouldn't require.

 

[SportCoaster]

Why do I feel like Gran Turismo 7 will have less than 715 Cars on release day?

 

[o000o]

Honestly, PD should've began Outsourcing when the PS3 era began. They would've been ahead of the game.

Yeah, but as discussed in this thread, probably the quality discrepancy is the reason they're against it (wrong move still).

Why do I feel like Gran Turismo 7 will have less than 715 Cars on release day?

Cuz PD are so slow with having so few employees (they're outsourcing, but dunno how impact in speed).

 

[05XR8]

Why do I feel like Gran Turismo 7 will have less than 715 Cars on release day?

Let's just say, we have 336(as per the Master Car list) cars total, within 3 years. Let's say half(which is the original car list) were done between 2015-2017(remember, we got "new" 2015, 2016 and 2017[the orange GT-R] models on debut).
PD could have modelled 168 cars from when they said Gran Turismo 7 development began, which is right after GT Sport completion. So, that's 2017-2019 for guesstimating another possible 168 cars modelled for Gran Turismo 7's debut car list.

Add the undisclosed number of outsourced models, let's say two studios can add 79 cars each. We don't as yet know the size of the outsourced studios. Could be smaller than PD. That would yield 168 cars. Total additional cars to GT Sport could be 338, added to the current GT Sport list of cars. That's 676 for Gran Turismo 7.

Maybe add the Porsche and "Lambo Lambo Lambo & Omega Moo" VGTs(sorry, couldn't resist). The Porsche Living Legend car, for an adjusted total of 679 on game debut.

No doubt some cars may be deleted and some added in their places.

 

[Emilius_73]

I don't really care about the exact amount of cars, I just want to see a few of things:

• Newer GT3/GTE cars
• DTM and 2020 GT500 to go into Gr.2
• A paintable modern day F1 car (2020 or 2022, I prefer 2020)

Add that, along with more real-world circuits, larger lobbies, multiplayer driver swaps and dynamic weather/time, and you're golden.

 

[Castrol96]

They should outsource assets for their circuits to save time.

 

[Sage Ages]

PD (and I assume other racing devs) already have tools to work on tracks with, so I assume that task isn't as taxing as doing things from scratch.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I think this is positive news, hopefully also leads to PD's staff doing some higher value work like designing decent tracks.

 

[queleuleu]

They should outsource assets for their circuits to save time.

Unfortunately, the trees wouldn't change. I can't believe there are 2d spinning trees at Trial Mountain on PS5...

 

[SportCoaster]

Unfortunately, the trees wouldn't change. I can't believe there are 2d spinning trees at Trial Mountain on PS5...

Wait, what? 2D spinning trees? That have been common since around 1994? That's weird, I thought they would be genuinely real trees. There goes much of the chance to trick people into thinking Gran Turismo 7 footage & screenshots are real-life...

 

[PSN:And-War]

I'm sure if I ask you to put forward at least one example of an outsourced car from Forza that looks bad, you wouldn't have one available. I'm also willing to bet if we had the CAD models available in front of us with no shaders or lighting, anyone would have a hard time telling which is which. It seems like this is said with not to much knowledge on what they actually look like, and people are associating it as an outsourcing issue when it's likely one of the hot items in Forza that have been in the game, wrong, for over a decade - before all the outsourcing.

That's not to say that an issue like that wont pop it's head in, but for over 800 vehicles, the issue is actually a lot rarer than people are making it seem.

Golf R32

 

[PSN:And-War]

Examples? You're probably going by the less realistic lighting engine which makes the models look less realistic, not the models themselves. If you put most of the Forza models into GT lighting engine and scapes I bet you'd see a big difference.

Also if the difference between PD and other modellers is so obvious you should have no trouble telling us the entire list of outsourced cars in GTS, because it is certainly more than the dozen or so we've had confirmed.

the golf r32

 

[Samus]

the golf r32

Which is one of those cars already mentioned as being very old, having carried over from essentially the first game. You also don't know who modelled it, I assume.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I'm gonna just put it out there here for all to see and say GT7 will have 2000 cars at launch.

Kaz has said a few times, in relation to GT7, that he sees no reason to discard the standard cars as so many cars have their own unique fans and would like to hold on to the archive of cars they have built.

"I doubt that we'll be throwing away the standard cars," said Yamauchi. "Each car has its own fans. So I think we'll hang on to the archive. In the meanwhile, some of those cars we may be able to make into Premium cars as they become available - but basically we're more focussed on increasing the number of premium cars."

 

[ImaRobot]

the golf r32

It seems like this is said with not to much knowledge on what they actually look like, and people are associating it as an outsourcing issue when it's likely one of the hot items in Forza that have been in the game, wrong, for over a decade - before all the outsourcing.

So I guess that's confirmed.

I'm gonna just put it out there here for all to see and say GT7 will have 2000 cars at launch.

Kaz has said a few times, in relation to GT7, that he sees no reason to discard the standard cars as so many cars have their own unique fans and would like to hold on to the archive of cars they have built.

"I doubt that we'll be throwing away the standard cars," said Yamauchi. "Each car has its own fans. So I think we'll hang on to the archive. In the meanwhile, some of those cars we may be able to make into Premium cars as they become available - but basically we're more focussed on increasing the number of premium cars."

You're extremely optimistic! Even with all the standards I don't think they've reach the 1500~ mark. Still in my opinion, he may very well not be throwing away those vehicles, but I don't think he'll be putting them back in without being reworked first - They're likely just for reference at this point, while they work on getting a fully modeled version back into the game.

With how much we've gotten with base-GTS as well as how much have been introduced since then, I don't think we'll be hitting 1000. I think 600-700 is more realistic, but also a bit generous as well.

 

[GBalao888]

I wonder if there will be a Red Bull X2021 of some sort. Something as a true successor to the X2014 Fan Car, but more advanced.

I'm gonna just put it out there here for all to see and say GT7 will have 2000 cars at launch.

Kaz has said a few times, in relation to GT7, that he sees no reason to discard the standard cars as so many cars have their own unique fans and would like to hold on to the archive of cars they have built.

"I doubt that we'll be throwing away the standard cars," said Yamauchi. "Each car has its own fans. So I think we'll hang on to the archive. In the meanwhile, some of those cars we may be able to make into Premium cars as they become available - but basically we're more focussed on increasing the number of premium cars."

You want 2,000 cars? Combine every premium car from the PS3 era, everything revealed for GT7 so far and everything from GT Sport with every possible car from the Forza series (barring cars exclusive to them and whatever fictional cars they have) and that's pretty close to it. I would wish to have a game like that, but let's be realistic here.

I really think GT7 would release with around 650 to 750 cars, thereabouts, because 2,000 is simply too great, that we'll need to wait around GT8 or GT Sport 2.0 (whatever it would be called) to have a car list like that. If GT7 is supported for a long time, like say three years, and we launch with around 750 cars at best, we could (hopefully) be seeing around 1,000 over these three years, provided that they give us consistent monthly updates.

To achieve 2,000 cars, this can be possible, eventually in a future Gran Turismo even way beyond 7, provided they have a gargantuan budget, together with many connections with companies/firms to outsource, technology to build cars at a consistent quality that quickly, as well as having to make deals with many brands, motorsports and car culture companies/organizations/agencies, given that Polyphony doesn't have that large of manpower.

 

[Samus]

I'm gonna just put it out there here for all to see and say GT7 will have 2000 cars at launch.

Kaz has said a few times, in relation to GT7, that he sees no reason to discard the standard cars as so many cars have their own unique fans and would like to hold on to the archive of cars they have built.

"I doubt that we'll be throwing away the standard cars," said Yamauchi. "Each car has its own fans. So I think we'll hang on to the archive. In the meanwhile, some of those cars we may be able to make into Premium cars as they become available - but basically we're more focussed on increasing the number of premium cars."

Are you seriously suggesting they'll include PS2 models on PS5?

 

[MagpieRacer]

Are you seriously suggesting they'll include PS2 models on PS5?

Kaz suggested it actually. So, yeah, if he doesn't want the work to go to waste. It's his game, he can do as he pleases.

 

[tankuroded]

Kaz suggested it actually. So, yeah, if he doesn't want the work to go to waste. It's his game, he can do as he pleases.

Where did he say that? That's a stretch interpretation on your end from the way I saw it.

 

[Samus]

Kaz suggested it actually. So, yeah, if he doesn't want the work to go to waste. It's his game, he can do as he pleases.

That was six years ago though. In the end they didn't even include the premium cars as is, they needed updating to work for PS4, so I highly doubt the basic PS2 era models were compatible either, and that's ignoring their overall poor visual appearance.

He could use them again, but I think it's extremely unlikely. They would look absurd among the rest of the high detailed assets.

 

[ImaRobot]

Kaz suggested it actually. So, yeah, if he doesn't want the work to go to waste. It's his game, he can do as he pleases.

The way it's worded out though is that they're just going to be kept in their archive, and that's basically it. That is, until they get remodeled to at least current gen standards.

some of those cars we may be able to make into Premium cars as they become available - but basically we're more focussed on increasing the number of premium cars

This quote almost confirms it, in my opinion.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Where did he say that? That's a stretch interpretation on your end from the way I saw it.

It was a direct quote from his own mouth. He doesnt want to throw away the archive they've built up. A quick Google search for Gran Turismo 7 standard cars will yield numerous interviews and quotes. But because no one wants it, no one will belive it. Which is fine.

Don't say you haven't all been warned though. I will welcome them with open arms as there's a lot of fun cars and potential extra content to play with. Only Sony have the power to change his mind on it. If his mindset is on keeping the car archive then in his typically stubborn ways he will keep it.

 

[MagpieRacer]

The way it's worded out though is that they're just going to be kept in their archive, and that's basically it. That is, until they get remodeled to at least current gen standards.

This quote almost confirms it, in my opinion.

Perhaps. Similar was said for the previous game but they simply updated the in game models as they went. I would hope the same would be done again.

 

[ImaRobot]

Perhaps. Similar was said for the previous game but they simply updated the in game models as they went. I would hope the same would be done again.

I don't think we should be basing anything off the previous game considering we have a more recent one we can go off of, that seems to support my opinion.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I don't think we should be basing anything off the previous game considering we have a more recent one we can go off of, that seems to support my opinion.

Yeah its personal opinion of course. GTS isn't a main series entry so to me everything that did in no way relates to what I expect from GT7, other than scapes and any potential multiplayer offering. GTS is a spin off to me.

Time will tell.