Gran Turismo makes me look bad

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dawko-san


I was looking for a video on youtube that explain what I mean and while this isn't the perfect explanation I think it's ok. 19:30.

Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact. I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, BUT there was not speed match between those cars.
 
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Getting a nice thread here, thats what I wanted...... for Information, the second hit I done to the Ferrari was not my intention. My mistake here was not to break again, I only left the gas.

A. Attacker more than half-way alongside
f1_apex_a.png


In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside
f1_apex_b.png



In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.


C. Attacker approximately half-way alongside
f1_apex_c.png



In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur. Ayrton Senna was famous for creating situations just like this, as both attacker and defender, where the other driver would have to decide whether or not to yield to avoid a collision.

Note that this is a not a new or controversial set of guidelines. For example, here is essentially the same set of rules presented in The Williams-Renault Formula 1 Motor Racing Book, published back in 1994.

f1racingrules1.png



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/amp/

You are entirely wrong.

Just out of curiosity what penalty did you receive if at all @Herrybo79 ?

I get nothing...... :-)
 
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Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

He did mind his own business and kept his line.He did nothing wrong.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact. I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, there was not speed match between those cars.

OP hit the Ferrari not the other way around.Ferrari was not going backwards in order to hit OP with his rear.

Getting a nice thread here, thats what I wanted...... for Information, the second hit I done to the Ferrari was not my intention. My mistake here was not to break again, I only left the gas.

Your mistake was that you were trying to "force" an overtake.You should have used your breaks to avoid hitting the Ferrari 2 times in the same corner.
 

rono_thomas

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I get nothing...... :-)

Thats an issue.

of course you don't ;)

Doesn’t make it right.


I was looking for a video on youtube that explain what I mean and while this isn't the perfect explanation I think it's ok. 19:30.

Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact. I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, BUT there was not speed match between those cars.


In your example if they had of contacted who would have been at fault?
 

zzz_pt

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zzz_pt


I was looking for a video on youtube that explain what I mean and while this isn't the perfect explanation I think it's ok. 19:30.

Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact. I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, BUT there was not speed match between those cars.


In that situation, both cars are side by side, so of course the outside car (the guy speaking) goes for the outside line. Also, the guy who goes on the inside backs off because he can't complete the overtake. I don't think it's a comparable situation at all.
 

Scaff

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Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact.
Really!

I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, BUT there was not speed match between those cars.
Its not difficult at all.

The OP didn't have the space to make he pass, was too far behind to even hope of making it stick, as such the result is on the OP and no one else.

Speed of the two cars is utterly and completely irrelevant to this, they are racing for position, the lead cars speed doesn't matter, nor does it excuse an overly optimistic attempt to pass.

Getting a nice thread here, thats what I wanted...... for Information, the second hit I done to the Ferrari was not my intention. My mistake here was not to break again, I only left the gas.
Intentional or not, its was on you to control the car your driving, so unfortunately the responsibility for the contact is yours.

Having to dab the brakes to avoid contact in a situation like this should always be a consideration, however everyday is a learning day and you are now aware for the future.
 

rono_thomas

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In that situation, both cars are side by side, so of course the outside car (the guy speaking) goes for the outside line. Also, the guy who goes on the inside backs off because he can't complete the overtake. I don't think it's a comparable situation at all.

Hamilton/Rosberg Spa 2014(?) maybe a better comparison?
 

zzz_pt

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Hamilton/Rosberg Spa 2014(?) maybe a better comparison?

Hmmm. I don't think so either. Rosberg was beside Lewis for the first right hander but when turning for the left hander his front axel was already behind Lewis's car rear axel. I think it was a racing incident IIRC. There's no way Rosberg would pass Lewis on that section. :)
 
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Hamilton/Rosberg Spa 2014(?) maybe a better comparison?

This situations is clear,no need for RL examples or youtube videos.
In any organized league in sim racing there would be a penalty for OP after that move.He forced an "overtake" that was not there,he hit and put off the Ferrari in order to make the overtake happen.
In iRacing "official" races this would be an instant "drive-through" penalty from officials -example-.In organized communities with no "live race officials" would propably have a point(s)/position reductions after that race plus a warning for next race(s).
Nobody here says that OP is a "dirty" driver or something similar.He made a mistake,thats it.The game should have a penalty system to punish him and thats the end of it (imo).
 
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dawko-san
Having to dab the brakes to avoid contact in a situation like this should always be a consideration, however everyday is a learning day and you are now aware for the future.


You would have braked right? You would have widened the gap between you and the guy IN FRONT of the Ferrari guy intentionally. You would have waited for him to finally start turning so you can go "left" and have a "better" corner exit. Right?

Just so everbody knows... It may seem like I don't care about other drivers but ask anyone I drive with. I always leave enough space and I don't do this kind of stuff in races, especially not in the championships but man, people need to start to be aware!

Let's say it was OP's fault. OK? Still, if Ferrari guy was aware of him in the inside he could have gotten just fine of that corner. Even if he wasn't at fault. He could have gotten away. The radar is there, just use it.
 

Stotty

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Going on-line, and expecting people to drive as well as is in that video is just plain naive.

That's iRacing - those guys have probably been racing against each other many times. Back in GT5P, when we had full grids of GTP drivers (most knew each other very well and had raced together 100's of times) you could try all sorts of passes because you knew who you were racing against, they knew you, and people would know what t expect and make room accordingly.

But you should NEVER drive like that in an open lobby/daily race.

Expecting randoms to make space for you is asking for trouble, and will only result in you or the other driver crashing.

Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

No he wouldn't - the OP would not have made it round the corner (avoiding contact) even if the Ferrari left a full car width on the inside. OP's angle in to the corner was too shallow and he was carrying too much speed to make the corner... he would still have hit the Ferrari.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact.

WTF are you talking about? The OP was behind. He had no overlap. The Ferrari didn't make any odd line changes. OP hit the Ferrari.

It's the following drivers responsibility to avoid contact.
 
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danthespam
Watched this a few times now, and lot of drivers could learn from what happens here.

If the Ferrari driver was a member on here he'd more than likely be opening yet another thread to complain about the standard of driving on line... first he gets unnecessarily hit by the Beetle on the straight, pushing him on to the grass, and slowing him, then he gets hit twice by the OP, eventually spinning him on to the grass.

OP 100% at fault, but could so easily have been avoided.

First error OP makes is not making an allowance for the Ferrari being pushed off track by the Beetle, and losing some straight line speed - so the Ferrari is coming in to the braking zone with less speed than usual... The OP needed to make allowances for this - Just like when you're catching someone with a tow (draft), you have to make allowances for speed differences in the braking zone.

As a result of the above, OP has to make and unplanned overtake - OP made a late decision to go to the inside primarily because he would have run straight in to the back of the Ferrari if he hadn't (no account taken of speed difference).

At no time was the overtake ever on - There's zero overlap before the turn in point (there's no overlap until the OP actually hits the Ferrari), and the OP hits the Ferrari right on its rear corner at the apex, coming in at an extremely narrow angle. There's no way the Ferrari would have been expecting the OP to make a pass there... probably very difficult to even see it coming and avoid it due to the rear view mirror making cars look too far away and the angle the OP comes in at.

OP then compounds his error by making no attempt to avoid the 2nd contact, which sends the Ferrari spinning.

I find the 2nd contact the most irritating... OP makes a mistake and hits another car - these things happen. Yet instead of trying to avoid further contact, he just keeps his foot in and hits the car a 2nd time. If I was a race steward, I'd be banning him for this alone.

When I read stories of woe from people about online, I wonder how many of them are equally as culpable as the OP for their own predicaments.

This is the perfect explanation. Read something in another post about knowing when to pass and when to not pass, think the majority of so called 'dirty' drivers would see this as an opportunity to pass or not really their fault. Knowing when to pass and hold back and give room isn't easy to do sometimes but things like this is a perfect example of avoidable contact and someone having their race ruined when both could've carried on and proven who was faster through the next set of corners.
 
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dawko-san
No he wouldn't - the OP would not have made it round the corner (avoiding contact) even if the Ferrari left a full car width on the inside. OP's angle in to the corner was too shallow and he was carrying too much speed to make the corner... he would still have hit the Ferrari.

Please. I've ran that corner side by side many times from that angle. These were GT3 cars with slicks. He would have made it.


Expecting randoms to make space for you is asking for trouble, and will only result in you or the other driver crashing.
So basically, it was wrong because he was expecting him to know how to drive in SPORT MODE?
 
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.... Ferrari guy was aware of him in the inside he could have gotten just fine of that corner. Even if he wasn't at fault. He could have gotten away. The radar is there, just use it.

Why do you think that the Ferrari was not aware of OP?Because he did not move out of OP's way?

So basically, it was wrong because he was expecting him to know how to drive in SPORT MODE?

Again it was a mistake from OP and not the Ferrari guy.This should be the other way around.
If I was in Ferrari place,I would both be aware of OP and also expect OP (because he "knows how to drive in SPORT MODE") not to try to make a move like that.
 
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Because if he saw him there, knowing that if he does go inside he will get knocked out. So I assume he is not a complete idiot to do it on purpose.

Ferrari was there first,not the other way around.

Edit:Being aware of someone behind does not mean that I would think that "if I keep my line,the guy is gonna put me off track by hitting me 2 times mid corner because he will not use his brakes due to him trying to make a pass that is not there,so I better move out of his way".
 
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dawko-san
No wonder this happens to you 'literally every freaking race' if you think things like this are OK. It was piss poor driving. Full stop.

I think I was not clear enough. I happens to me, yes, but not like this. I mean it happens to me often on this track, in the slow right hander, just before the barrier esses. The one near the sea after the downhill straight. I use WRX GT3 in GT3 races and that car is very good in braking. I almost everytime gain a position there because, say RSR GT3 has to brake waaay sooner. So, I go inside, we ARE next to each other, I go inside and people ram into me like I am a ghost. This is what I mean.
 

Stotty

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Please. I've ran that corner side by side many times from that angle. These were GT3 cars with slicks. He would have made it.

At the angle the OP was approaching the corner, he would not have avoided contact even if the Ferrari had left him a full cars width on the inside. The OP would have still hit the Ferrari.

So basically, it was wrong because he was expecting him to know how to drive in SPORT MODE?

In simple terms, yes. At this stage in the game, you have to assume everyone is useless UNLESS THEY PROVE OTHERWISE. Doing otherwise is just asking for trouble.

You have to understand who you're racing against and make allowances where appropriate. I don't know what DR/SR the OP is, but that didn't look like a high level race - plus they were what, 14th/15th position?
 
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dawko-san
In simple terms, yes. At this stage in the game, you have to assume everyone is useless UNLESS THEY PROVE OTHERWISE. Doing otherwise is just asking for trouble.

You have to understand who you're racing against and make allowances where appropriate. I don't know what DR/SR the OP is, but that didn't look like a high level race - plus they were what, 14th/15th position?
Fair enough.
 
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I think I was not clear enough. I happens to me, yes, but not like this. I mean it happens to me often on this track, in the slow right hander, just before the barrier esses. The one near the sea after the downhill straight. I use WRX GT3 in GT3 races and that car is very good in braking. I almost everytime gain a position there because, say RSR GT3 has to brake waaay sooner. So, I go inside, we ARE next to each other, I go inside and people ram into me like I am a ghost. This is what I mean.

This is not what happend in OP's video.In your case you made a valid move/pass and they are trying to get into your line.OP did not do that.
 

Famine

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Even tho Ferrari guy did not do any deffensive move, he would have gotten away anyway, if he just mind his own business and went outside. OP would need to slow down and would not have enough speed to finish the overtake. No harm.

Instead, Ferrari guy hit OP with rear of his car, resulting in contact. I think this exact scenario that happened in OP's video is kind of hard to judge because tho OP was behind the Ferrari guy, BUT there was not speed match between those cars
Please rewatch the video and note the times that the Ferrari makes his first move right into the corner and the car behind him moves out from his wheel tracks.

You're defending a driver divebombing another car by not taking account of basic pack driving. Claiming the Ferrari hit him with the back of his car is patent nonsense.
 
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I made a another Video, from other views.

Only to show, that the second hit was not my intention, you can see on the lights that I use the break.

Than you can see, that the Ferrari break in the Full speed corner, which made me so much faster in the small corner, I had to break hard, I think maybe I had to choose the left way, but than I where hidding him hard, so my reaction was, breaking hard, avoid to hit him hard, and maybe in hope the "The Gentleman" open the door, because of his fault before.

 
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You tried to make pass from too far back, where the driver ahead had already braked and turned in with a normal line. Simple as that. You have to think when attempting something like that 'where does the other car go?', it can't just disappear like magic, it is on a set line. You either have to be outrageously talented to get the car stopped on such a sharp edge that you can slip inside the other car with no contact, or just be patient and choose a line that enables you to try a better pass later in the lap.
 

zzz_pt

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The guy on the Nissan did what you didn't :) He let off the throttle and touched the breaks several times to avoid contact and went for the outside line. I think you already got what you did wrong (even if that was not intentional) and how you can avoid it next time. :) Good that you posted this too. Most people wouldn't care and would continue to do exactly the same, not knowing this is not how you race properly.

PD expects everyone to know about basic racing behaviour or just to learn it from 2 videos. It doesn't help that the penalty system is not working as it should.
 
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I made a another Video, from other views.

Only to show, that the second hit was not my intention, you can see on the lights that I use the break.

Than you can see, that the Ferrari break in the Full speed corner, which made me so much faster in the small corner, I had to break hard, I think maybe I had to choose the left way, but than I where hidding him hard, so my reaction was, breaking hard, avoid to hit him hard, and maybe in hope the "The Gentleman" open the door, because of his fault before.

You still dont get it.Ferrari did nothing wrong.You did.
Plus by
that the second hit was not my intention
you sound like the first was intentional (that I think it was not).
Everybody,even the best,make mistakes.The thing is if we learn from those or not.
 

Scaff

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You would have braked right? You would have widened the gap between you and the guy IN FRONT of the Ferrari guy intentionally. You would have waited for him to finally start turning so you can go "left" and have a "better" corner exit. Right?
Personally I would not have gone for the overtake in the first place, no way that was going to happen without contact.

I would have used the Ferrari's speed drop from the trip off-road to have closed the gap to nothing, pressured them through the s-bend section and been in the right place and position for an overtake into the last corner before the start finish straight.


Just so everbody knows... It may seem like I don't care about other drivers but ask anyone I drive with. I always leave enough space and I don't do this kind of stuff in races, especially not in the championships but man, people need to start to be aware!
Your posts in this conversation don't gel with that claim.


Let's say it was OP's fault. OK? Still, if Ferrari guy was aware of him in the inside he could have gotten just fine of that corner. Even if he wasn't at fault. He could have gotten away. The radar is there, just use it.
How exactly would the Ferrari driver stopped the OP driving into him twice without having to just give up and let him pass, when the OP didn't have position?

I have to be brutally honest here and say that your entire approach (and that of many others) reeks of treating other drivers on track as if they were AI, expecting them to give you space to pass just because you can get a bumper vaguely near them, an expectation that they are to blame when they get driven into by them and a get past them at any cost attitude.

Not that I strictly blame the players for this, after all PD and the FIA put the conditions in place for this to happen.

I made a another Video, from other views.

Only to show, that the second hit was not my intention, you can see on the lights that I use the break.
As I have already said, intention has nothing to do with this.

You didn't moderate you speed sufficiently to avoid contact (and as the following car that is your responsibility), and you didn't do it twice!


Than you can see, that the Ferrari break in the Full speed corner, which made me so much faster in the small corner, I had to break hard, I think maybe I had to choose the left way, but than I where hidding him hard, so my reaction was, breaking hard, avoid to hit him hard,
I'm going to make this really simple. You were never going to make that pass without punting him off the track. NEVER.

and maybe in hope the "The Gentleman" open the door, because of his fault before.
Oh so he's not a gentleman because he didn't concede a corner that you were never going to make without contact, you never had the positional advantage and after you hit him twice.

Stop treating other people playing on-line as if they are the AI.

In past On-line race series here at GTP and other places under clean driving rules you would have been expected to pull over and hand that position back to them, regardless of how many other places you would have lost.

This is part of the reason why, despite giving it a go, I have to a large degree given up on GTS on-line. The driving standards are on the whole appealing; and yes you get issues in all titles but I have to be blunt (and it may just be me) nothing like to the degree I've found in GTS. People should take a look at the ELS races streamed over the weekend for the PC2 series to see the difference.

The penalty system in GTS is simply not robust enough, the rankings to easy and quick to gain, making them effectively meaninglessfor he purpose designed.

If this is the next 100 years of Motorsport then I want bugger all to do with it.
 
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dawko-san
How exactly would the Ferrari driver stopped the OP driving into him twice without having to just give up and let him pass, when the OP didn't have position?
Easy. He'd let him just enough space so OP would be forced to slow down even more and Ferrari would exit the corner just fine and would not lose position.
 
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You're defending a driver divebombing another car by not taking account of basic pack driving. .

This is the whole thread right here. It was a divebomb pure and simple. There was no room to make the pass and op should not have attempted it. Doesn't make him a bad person, just uninformed, learn the lesson and move on.

Easy. He'd let him just enough space so OP would be forced to slow down even more and Ferrari would exit the corner just fine and would not lose position.

If I gave room to every person who divebombed me I'd lose a position every corner.