GT Sport to not feature single player 'career' events/races?

[cocoflowa]

I got em all and yes I'll buy it. It must be in my collection. And yes I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This subject was slightly touched upon in the press conference. From Alan's video at 7:45, the journalist harps on a bit about the joy of starting out with old/rubbish cars, then goes on to say:
Journo: "There doesn't seem to be a place for that in GT Sport. Is that something that's going to be coming in a future game?"
Kaz: "Of course."
"To add to that, the times have changed since 20 years ago. Back then, it was possible to set up a game that took hundreds of hours to play, where you stepped up a little bit at a time, but nowadays it's not so easy to make a game with that kind of slow progress. We need to design the games with a little bit better tempo for the new audiences."

I have to say, I think Kaz is out of touch with his core audience if he doesn't think there is a large portion of the fanbase that wants the old GT style career. He's completely misread the forums or wherever he got that idea if that's the case. I've said this many, many times, one of PD's problems going forward is the "one size fits all" mentality of the game. The game is big enough, the fanbase is big enough, to allow several different paths through the game to cater to everyone. From standard GT Career Mode to Sandbox to an Online Career to Create Your Own Career and more. Just give us a number of options and let us choose how we want to play.

It sounds like he's keeping the "one size fits all" philosophy but with a completely different slant, ignoring the crowd that got him here in the process. He's right that the audience is changing. What he's misjudged is that he thinks we have all changed the same and we all want a single way to play the game and that's just not the case. That's a big mistake IMO.

 

[Sertsa]

I have to say, I think Kaz is out of touch with his core audience if he doesn't think there is a large portion of the fanbase that wants the old GT style career. He's completely misread the forums or wherever he got that idea if that's the case. I've said this many, many times, one of PD's problems going forward is the "one size fits all" mentality of the game. The game is big enough, the fanbase is big enough, to allow several different paths through the game to cater to everyone. From standard GT Career Mode to Sandbox to an Online Career to Create Your Own Career and more. Just give us a number of options and let us choose how we want to play.

It sounds like he's keeping the "one size fits all" philosophy but with a completely different slant, ignoring the crowd that got him here in the process. He's right that the audience is changing. What he's misjudged is that he thinks we have all changed the same and we all want a single way to play the game and that's just not the case. That's a big mistake IMO.

I agree. One of the things I liked about earlier GT games was the feeling of both progression and replay ability with different cars and a different general track and that the choices each of us was given. In fact, one of the things I disliked upon first playing GT6 was that I was forced to pick a specific car. (I wound up taking the money I won in the early races, buying a first gen Miata and redoing them).

I'm not sure what Kaz and his team are trying to do, but the whole gaming industry seems to be in a flux. On one hand there are the massively complex top tier games that take a tremendous amount of time and money to produce, but when they work they become immersive and varied for each player and can keep players entertained for a very long time. (In that respect GT 1-3 may have been pioneers). On the other hand, some studios have countered with simplicity and designing social games that are made to be addictive rather than fun. And there are the variations in between, especially as multiplayer becomes expected. It seems most expect that the high budget, complex games will be going away completely. I think most of us have generally accepted that the Half Life story will never conclude, for instance.

I imagine everyone at Polyphony is under tremendous pressure, from fans, from both the gaming and auto industry and from their employers and clients, especially Sony. They were once among the most innovative (and surprisingly profitable) game designers, which is an astounding feat and a great deal to live up to. And I'm sure they have a lot of pressure to appeal to youth and the "new gamers."

That said, I'm wondering if Polyphony realizes that it's in a unique position among games. For instance, while many of us that played GT3 or even earlier games have progressed with our lives and, for the most part, may have stopped playing a lot of games--and certainly don't have the time we used to--we still play Gran Turismo and other racing games. And the basic concept of driving and racing has an appeal across ages. Anyone, whether 15, 30 or 65 can fire up a good racing game and understand the point is to try be faster than everyone else. In that respect, they don't have to worry about what the "new gamer" wants. Just put together a good racing game, keep focused on what aspects to get right and what its main emphasis will be (like GT racing), and a whole lot of us, of all ages, will buy it.

 

[mister dog]

Again, they don't need to care for what the fans want. Priority 1 is probably releasing new GT games as a marketing exercise with a specific theme that will generate broad publicity across the board. That the game is half finished or the fans don't get what they want is of no importance to Sony and PD, as long as they make headlines with whatever new 'revolution' they come up with.

It's the equation of selling half the copies compared to the old days, vs the money they can generate with the academy, vision GT's or endorsed FIA championships.

It's important GT fans realize they are simply sponsoring this whole exercise unwillingly.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm pretty sure that Kaz understands the marketshare of the different games, and the sub-genres in racing games. As JohnnyP pointed out some time back, iRacing has about 50,000 active subscribers, 55K give or take. The various racing sims sell in the low hundreds of thousands, which shocked me. The two kings of racing games are Gran Turismo and Forza, an GT most of all, with multiple millions of sales guaranteed. And the reason those two games sell so well is the Gran Turismo formula of providing the player with a playground of cars and tracks, and many ways to race (and drift) them.

As I posted in the "Tears of joy" thread, it's hard for me to believe that Kaz would abandon the formula which is the foundation for the most popular racing franchise in history, save for an Arcade
Mode single race. I have to think there will be more to GT Sport offline than that. If nothing else, an Event Maker so we can make our own racing careers ourselves, saving PD the trouble of hand building dozens of events.

I can certainly be wrong. GT5 Prologue was a tiny little game which was a platinum seller just on pre-orders alone, and ended up selling more than 5 million copies. It was supported and expanded on, but it grew very little. GT Sport, even on the basis of online play alone, is going to be far bigger than Prologue. Much of the gaming community plays online, including Gran Turismo players. Kaz has all that data, accumulated from more than five years of GT5 and 6 playthroughs. He may know how many times I've restarted single player races just to get a certain car list on track. So maybe he's concluded that with a mini-Gran Turismo, he could aim it squarely at online eSports and this would satisfy a good deal of us, while we wait for them to finish GT7. Who knows.

If this is the case, then we should lobby for offline play of some kind, some substantial kind, to be included in Sport, at least at some point. A comprehensive Event Maker if nothing else, which we could use offline to make entire racing seasons. Online, to create clubs and leagues, enhanced by the Livery Editor. Something. And it could be patched in. I believe it was Prologue which had the online racing system added as a patch later after release. If we don't have offline single player racing in GTS, it could be pasted in later.

We have to ask for things, like the Livery Editor, better bots and damage. We're getting those. We can make sure that GT Sport will have some sort of single player offline play if we ask for it. Nicely.

 

[mister dog]

I'm pretty sure that Kaz understands the marketshare of the different games, and the sub-genres in racing games. As JohnnyP pointed out some time back, iRacing has about 50,000 active subscribers, 55K give or take. The various racing sims sell in the low hundreds of thousands, which shocked me. The two kings of racing games are Gran Turismo and Forza, an GT most of all, with multiple millions of sales guaranteed. And the reason those two games sell so well is the Gran Turismo formula of providing the player with a playground of cars and tracks, and many ways to race (and drift) them.

Those low sales (comparatively speaking) of racing sims on PC, is just because PC gamers themselves are far outweighed by the number of console users. It's a more mature crowd in general too that expect a bit more depth from their games than what you see on Playstation or Xbone. So don't stare yourself blind on sold copies because that has no relevance at all on how qualitative a game is. GT and FM are 'king' just because of the huge marketing machines that sponsor them, and the mass consumer market buying their games as they don't know any better.

As I posted in the "Tears of joy" thread, it's hard for me to believe that Kaz would abandon the formula which is the foundation for the most popular racing franchise in history, save for an Arcade
Mode single race. I have to think there will be more to GT Sport offline than that. If nothing else, an Event Maker so we can make our own racing careers ourselves, saving PD the trouble of hand building dozens of events.

But he is abandoning the formula in favor of his newest 'vision'. If you do get somewhat of an offline mode that is enjoyable to play, it will contain nothing of the depth the GT mode of old used to have as it's simply not his priority anymore.

I can certainly be wrong. GT5 Prologue was a tiny little game which was a platinum seller just on pre-orders alone, and ended up selling more than 5 million copies. It was supported and expanded on, but it grew very little. GT Sport, even on the basis of online play alone, is going to be far bigger than Prologue. Much of the gaming community plays online, including Gran Turismo players. Kaz has all that data, accumulated from more than five years of GT5 and 6 playthroughs. He may know how many times I've restarted single player races just to get a certain car list on track. So maybe he's concluded that with a mini-Gran Turismo, he could aim it squarely at online eSports and this would satisfy a good deal of us, while we wait for them to finish GT7. Who knows.

GTS might sell 5 million copies, but i'm pretty sure a whole lot of people will get tired of the game in a hurry because they are not online players, and they didn't realize the offline mode would be second rate when buying their copy.

If this is the case, then we should lobby for offline play of some kind, some substantial kind, to be included in Sport, at least at some point. A comprehensive Event Maker if nothing else, which we could use offline to make entire racing seasons. Online, to create clubs and leagues, enhanced by the Livery Editor. Something. And it could be patched in. I believe it was Prologue which had the online racing system added as a patch later after release. If we don't have offline single player racing in GTS, it could be pasted in later.

We have to ask for things, like the Livery Editor, better bots and damage. We're getting those. We can make sure that GT Sport will have some sort of single player offline play if we ask for it. Nicely.

We've been lobbying for certain improvements since decades now. We barely got anything so don't get your hopes up. You will receive what PD seems fit for you and what fits their marketing strategy, not what you prefer.

 

[05XR8]

PD do like to surprise us with extras. Out of nowhere, we got the M4 Pacecar, Moon Mission, Senna Tribute, VGT cars, Goodwood, Red Bull Junior. Problem is, there wasn't much to do with these modes once completed.

Are PD going to, once again, invest all this time into introducing suprise content, only to use once and throw away? That has to change as well.

I'd go the PCars route. I'm talking hours upon hours of game play with mixing weather, time of day and tracks, car choices and race laps or timed races, AI slider, number of opponents, etc. Creating a single player's dream of making one's own championship series. Leave it to the Single player to actually make their own way in the game.

 

[nickg07]

How long can it take to come up with events and rules?

They don't even need career progression. Just events to drive off line vs the cpu for races where you don't want to/can't go online.

Fwd/rwd/4x4/ turbo, NA rules just add some criteria around power and it's done. I am positive this could be produced in a day or two.

 

[7HO]

I realise some people feel deceived because of missing features that might have been promised and it is fair to be upset for this reason but it is PD and this isn't new for them.

As for the game we are apparently getting. If all I had seen was the GT Sport website and nothing more I would think this could be a great title but I'd have a few BUTs and IFs to add.

Clearly GT Sport is a spin off title now. They have said it out right now and they have made it clear with the website. I personally love the idea that someone is trying to bring an iRacing style game to console, the market needs it. E-sports is a big deal but sim racing in E-sports hasn't been popular yet and there is a bunch of reasons for that. What sim racing needs is the right esports title on console and it might make the big time. If it makes the big time that will mean people can actually make a living from sim racing and that would be a big deal.

BUT this is a service so selling the game is bad business which could hurt the customer in the future, it should be subscription based.

I really liked seeing that there will be a rating system to control behaviour similar to iRacing BUT it requires a protest system alongside it otherwise it will not be effective and this is another reason you need a subscription service because you need to pay officials to review and handle these protests.

There are lots of things we don't know about the game yet. It could be great IF the physics are good and not dumbed down and IF it has modern features and quality compared to the other top end sims. Sure GT Sport will have no competition in this genre on console BUT because of the quality of racing games currently it will be expected to compete with modern features and quality and can't just rely on epsorts to be the selling point. The success of GT Sport will rely on people racing. If people do not enjoy racing then they will not race and this experiment will fail. So it needs a robust system to prevent wreckers and quitters and to maintain high driving standards and what they have announced so far is a step in the right direction but will not be enough on its own. And people must enjoy driving the cars, if people enjoy another sim better because it has dynamic features that make it more realistic and alive or because the physics are more realistic on another sim then people will stop racing in GT Sport and go looking for Leagues or AI to race against and there are some sims doing decent AI now.

In the past console racers have compared Forza VS GT because this is what you had on console. Now you have titles like PCARS and AC coming to console it is no longer a 2 horse race and these are a real threat. If people can't get their clean online racing fix from GT Sport they will quickly learn about superior league racing once GT Sport comes out.

In my opinion watering down a title like this with a traditional game mode like GT has had in the past would be a bad thing, this is a racing title aimed at competitive gamers and those people who love to race or dream of racing in real life. This is the title that might actually give GT a place in the race sim market. There is no need to add fluff to such a title and things like AI and a traditional GT career would only cheapen the experience in my opinion. I think it is a great thing that PD are trying this and I think an online racer is more than capable of standing on its own without the other stuff.

Some things this really has going for itself.

• The illusion of being cheaper than iRacing which is a big deal, even if it turns out to be more expensive no one will see it that way and lots of people claim iRacing is too expensive as a turn off.
• Massive potential player base.
• Console ease of use, iRacing is far too complicated for the average person, I never found it complicated but many do and the iRacing forums reflect this is an issue.
• Driver development, I think this is brilliant. Sure I know it will most likely be in the tradition of previous GT driving challenges and there will no doubt be some AI racing involved to teach certain skills but this is a good thing. And that is the thing, I have no doubt there will be AI racing in GT Sport. Sure there will not be as much as previous titles in career mode but it will now serve a purpose, to teach essential skills to prepare people for online racing.
• Potentially the biggest prizes we have seen in sim racing. At the moment iRacing has some pretty big prizes with the 3 Pro series but first prize is still only $10,000 in each of these and while there are other spoils for the champion and even though this is big for sim racing, this is a small sum compared to other e-sports. But PD need to not rely on prizes as the draw card because this is something that only benifits the champions and without the slower people enjoying the service there will be no service so it is important that the bigger focus is on ensuring racing remains clean and well matched so it will be fun.

A better question is why are PD making a game for 10.98% of game players instead of 78.62% of game players?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/6012-if-you-could-only-play-single-player-or-multiplayer-games

That is a biased poll because it isn't genre based and it is a irrelevant question, it isn't an either/or situation, anyone can play both and many enjoy both.

Here's the thing, many people love games such as Tomb Raider and Uncharted and many other games for their single player story driven gameplay. Then you have games that are in between like Borderlands and Little Big Planet, these are games that can be played as a single player game but the real enjoyment comes when you play them with others and many people do this online. Then you have your online multiplayer focussed games which are huge and yet that poll would make it seem like no one is interested in them. If no one was interested in them people wouldn't be making millions from playing and competing in them. The only reason people are able to make millions is because these games are so popular that millions of people watch the best play them, yes that is right, interest in these games is so big that not only do people spend a lot of time playing them they also spend a lot of time watching others play them. And while many of these games have a story mode the real interest is in the online multiplayer so do another thread, this time ask the question, if you had to choose between online and story mode in Battlefield which would you choose? I bet the result would be very different.

 

[mister dog]

@7HO You're right about this needing to be implemented good and professionally, but knowing PD i also have my doubts about that. First of all will online be stable? Will the collision system work properly? Will the driver rating work and will it put people in proper classes that keeps the racing interesting? If they can pull that off they might be successful, but only with a minority of their user base that prefers online. The number might be bigger than the 10% @Tired Tyres mentioned, but what will be the true maximum then? 30%?

 

[Imari]

In the past console racers have compared Forza VS GT because this is what you had on console. Now you have titles like PCARS and AC coming to console it is no longer a 2 horse race and these are a real threat.

As far as single player, Forza Motorsport is basically in a class of it's own now. No other game offers the traditional Gran Turismo-esque gameplay of a large list with a high amount of accessable cars, high levels of tuning and customisation and a repetitive but extensive single player mode.

All the other "serious" simulations on console are going towards the smaller, more refined, more motorsports focussed angle. The GTR/TOCA/Race 07 angle, you might call it.

It's an interesting change from when Gran Turismo was king of the hill and everyone wanted to be more like GT. Even Gran Turismo isn't the best Gran Turismo any more.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I wonder what will happen with tire restrictions in the sanctioned or official races. Many nights I browsed the open lobbies of GT5/6 looking for street cars racing on street tires or race cars on race hards and they were about as hard to find as a needle in a haystack. RS tires on just about everything was the theme in the vast, vast majority of lobbies. Will those racers find racing 300 hp cars on Comfort Softs appealing if that's the case? And what about tuning? Almost every lobby featured unlimited tuning. Will players be really interested in racing over and over again without begin able to adjust their cars if that's indeed the case? What if PD doesn't correct the stock 0.60 rear toe and cars tend to be understeery?

It's like a house of cards. All it takes is one card out of place and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

 

[7HO]

@7HO You're right about this needing to be implemented good and professionally, but knowing PD i also have my doubts about that. First of all will online be stable? Will the collision system work properly? Will the driver rating work and will it put people in proper classes that keeps the racing interesting? If they can pull that off they might be successful, but only with a minority of their user base that prefers online. The number might be bigger than the 10% @Tired Tyres mentioned, but what will be the true maximum then? 30%?

I actually had that in mind but forgot to write about it, the netcode and collision. Netcode is a major part of what makes iRacing so good and it is something even Kunos mentioned when they said something to the effect of not knowing how iRacing do it so well. GT will no doubt have more than half of the equation because the most important factor in the foundation for solid online racing is quality servers but their netcode will also need to be very good. From what I have seen so far I can't say that I was impressed but they have time to improve. Collision is something even iRacing can improve on but they are so far ahead of PD here, hopefully this will be good in GT Sport.

Matchmaking can be easy, the hard part is points allocation for championships or ranking and this will be one of the most important things for GT Sport to get right considering the ranking of drivers in the form of a championship is the biggest part of the game.

As far as single player, Forza Motorsport is basically in a class of it's own now. No other game offers the traditional Gran Turismo-esque gameplay of a large list with a high amount of accessable cars, high levels of tuning and customisation and a repetitive but extensive single player mode.

All the other "serious" simulations on console are going towards the smaller, more refined, more motorsports focussed angle. The GTR/TOCA/Race 07 angle, you might call it.

It's an interesting change from when Gran Turismo was king of the hill and everyone wanted to be more like GT. Even Gran Turismo isn't the best Gran Turismo any more.

When you think about it they are all kind of in a class of their own now.

I wonder what will happen with tire restrictions in the sanctioned or official races. Many nights I browsed the open lobbies of GT5/6 looking for street cars racing on street tires or race cars on race hards and they were about as hard to find as a needle in a haystack. RS tires on just about everything was the theme in the vast, vast majority of lobbies. Will those racers find racing 300 hp cars on Comfort Softs appealing if that's the case? And what about tuning? Almost every lobby featured unlimited tuning. Will players be really interested in racing over and over again without begin able to adjust their cars if that's indeed the case? What if PD doesn't correct the stock 0.60 rear toe and cars tend to be understeery?

It's like a house of cards. All it takes is one card out of place and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

On the GT Sport website it shows 4 classes using a mix of real and fantasy cars. For example they have a class based on GT3 with real life GT3 models as well as fantasy GT3 models build using GT3 rules as a foundation and it helps to have FIA onboard when you do something like this. Although it remains to be seen if they get balance of performance right and GT3 should be the easiest class to achieve BOP but my long answer to your question is I believe based on those classes each class will have a fixed control tyre for the purpose of competitive racing. And since you can't modify GT3 cars in real life I doubt the tuning options we have seen from GT in full featured titles will appear here and on that note I fear there will be more prologue comparisons.

 

[mjm23race]

Just out of curiosity let's say GT6 sold 6 million copies, what is the percentage of people that play online only?

 

[Tired Tyres]

That is a biased poll because it isn't genre based and it is a irrelevant question, it isn't an either/or situation, anyone can play both and many enjoy both.

Here's the thing, many people love games such as Tomb Raider and Uncharted and many other games for their single player story driven gameplay. Then you have games that are in between like Borderlands and Little Big Planet, these are games that can be played as a single player game but the real enjoyment comes when you play them with others and many people do this online. Then you have your online multiplayer focussed games which are huge and yet that poll would make it seem like no one is interested in them. If no one was interested in them people wouldn't be making millions from playing and competing in them. The only reason people are able to make millions is because these games are so popular that millions of people watch the best play them, yes that is right, interest in these games is so big that not only do people spend a lot of time playing them they also spend a lot of time watching others play them. And while many of these games have a story mode the real interest is in the online multiplayer so do another thread, this time ask the question, if you had to choose between online and story mode in Battlefield which would you choose? I bet the result would be very different.

It is the very opposite of a biased poll. It is asked of GAMERS, Not fans of a specific franchise.

Ask players of any GAME and you then get a biased response.

They ask the same thing every year and the result is the same every year. Online is a minority interest. One player is the majority choice. End Of.

 

[Com Fox]

Granted I think they are hiding Gr. 2. Trying to not reveal too much of the game and its cars, (Probably contains race cars that are faster than GT3 though slower than LMP1).

So I don't think we know all the details of events in general though I do think it is unlikely PD will come out and show us actual single player events as while Cars and Classes are not fully revealed, what to do with them seemed to be spot on with information.

 

[Imari]

When you think about it they are all kind of in a class of their own now.

I suppose, but that's not really very helpful.

Whereas it is somewhat useful to consider that there's no substantially similar competitor to Forza Motorsport that is more modern than GT6, whereas there's several substantially similar competitors to GTS.

FM7 doesn't really need to be "better" than GTS, because it's such a different style of game. But GTS still has to compete with pCARS, AC, and if they go super hard on the online championships thing, then ultimately iRacing too. Previously Gran Turismo was very different to those sorts of games and offered things that they didn't, but it looks to me like there's an awful lot of overlap between major features.

Photomode excepted, that remains a Gran Turismo speciality.

 

[Brutaka]

Just out of curiosity let's say GT6 sold 6 million copies, what is the percentage of people that play online only?

That's not really possible because online is directly affected by offline gameplay for GT6. You can only ask that question for a game that has separated offline and online "progression" such as Call of Duty.

 

[nickg07]

When i wake up at 8am Saturday morning and want to play gran tourismo there's very few people online. If im on holiday from work and it's a Tuesday morning it's even worse. What use is GTS in this eventuality?

 

[Tenacious D]

We've been lobbying for certain improvements since decades now. We barely got anything so don't get your hopes up. You will receive what PD seems fit for you and what fits their marketing strategy, not what you prefer.

I think you're mistaken.

• More cars in race
• Online play
• More European cars, and key marques like Ferrari and that P car
• Damage
• Improved physics and sound
• Improved bots
• Course Maker
• Livery Editor
• Return of Race Mod (briefly and quite limited, but still)
• More serious racing events with flags, penalties and other pro racing elements
• Legacy content from previous Gran Turismos - hey, I love that Standard content

And that's just off the top of my head. You may not be happy with most of that, but that's a different ox to gore. Now as for the rest of it...

I know that all forms of gaming are dominated by casual players, but I'm really floored that sim racing is such a niche market, when Europe is mad about racing. Maybe it really is a game for the elite players. In this case, GT Sport is filling in a niche that games like PCARS and Assetto Corsa can't fill. Which is unfortunate for PCARS because it's much more like Gran Turismo and Forza in its physics and handling. It was way oversold as this impeccable racing sim, and that seems to have hurt sales. But will a market used to the sandbox play of Gran Turismo get tired of the stiff online competition of GT Sport? I think a lot of them will, but how many is entirely up to question. And that also has to do with just what kind of gameplay Sport is going to offer. If there is a basic offline structure, then it's going to do at least as well as GT6, as fans with PS4s are apparently ravenous for a Gran Turismo on their system.

How long they stick with it is up to debate. A lot depends on what GT Sport actually is, which is still pretty murky right now. We went nuts over Prologue for months, which was a much smaller game, and then it lingered till GT5 came out. Sport could do better, even into the release time of GT7. We'll just have to see. As for what Kaz' vision still is for Gran Turismo, we'll just have to see that too.

Just out of curiosity let's say GT6 sold 6 million copies, what is the percentage of people that play online only?

I'm thinking a rather small segment. Google isn't being much help, but I seem to recall one of the mods saying last fall that on average, there were 100,000 players online in a typical week. If that's still true today, that means that with 5 million sales, GT6 has about 2% of its fanbase online. I wouldn't be surprised if it's less than that. GT Sport is a different creature with a different orientation, so it will be interesting to see how well fans take to it.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

It is the very opposite of a biased poll. It is asked of GAMERS, Not fans of a specific franchise.

Ask players of any GAME and you then get a biased response.

They ask the same thing every year and the result is the same every year. Online is a minority interest. One player is the majority choice. End Of.

I still don't see what the poll tells us to be honest. As @7HO says it's an either/or question but the reality isn't, we have choice and can express preferences.

The fact it asks the question about games in general is worse not better when we're talking about just one game here, in a single genre. Different genres will give totally different results - would you show this poll to the developers of Call of Duty and tell them they've been doing it all wrong? What does the vote of someone who only plays World of Warcraft mean to the relative importance of SP/MP in Gran Turismo?

GameFAQs may well have run the poll many times and got the same results but were the responses a representative sample of gamers worldwide? Especially bearing in mind it is GameFAQs - a site where people go to create/view FAQs/walkthroughs mostly made for single-player parts of games..........

 

[trustjab]

The title is 'slanted' the way it is because of the evidence i have then presented in the OP. To simply ask if there will or won't be one would suggest we currently have nothing to go on either way, when we do. I have presented the evidence that points towards it not being present then asked what people make of that. I have not factually stated it to be the case.

You say you disagree with how the OP is presented but don't state why. Is there a factual errors? Do you believe I have misinterpreted something? Help me out here, where have I gone wrong in my assessment? Because all I've seen so far in this thread from others is along the lines of "wait and see" which is fair enough, it doesn't however refute the evidence against it given in the op. You however seem to have an issue with it.

I did explain it. We aren't 100% certain what the career mode is or if it even is. I gave you credit in making it and a poll, but I don't agree with how the op is tilted to negativity on this subject without accurately knowing it's details. The questions in the poll I even said could be different as well as the thread's title.

Here's my view. You made another thread about the car and track list... in that thread you don't want to include Seattle short because we haven't seen the track. All we have is a screen shot that says "Seattle Short". What do we have as far as evidence on "career mode" besides screen shots of things like driving missions? I think we need the full dossier to make a judgement on this inclusion or not, but that's just my opinion. We don't change because someone disagrees. I expect that.

 

[mister dog]

• More cars in race
• Online play
• More European cars, and key marques like Ferrari and that P car
• Damage
• Improved physics and sound
• Improved bots
• Course Maker
• Livery Editor
• Return of Race Mod (briefly and quite limited, but still)
• More serious racing events with flags, penalties and other pro racing elements
• Legacy content from previous Gran Turismos - hey, I love that Standard content

 

[Johnnypenso]

I did explain it. We aren't 100% certain what the career mode is or if it even is. I gave you credit in making it and a poll, but I don't agree with how the op is tilted to negativity on this subject without accurately knowing it's details. The questions in the poll I even said could be different as well as the thread's title.

Here's my view. You made another thread about the car and track list... in that thread you don't want to include Seattle short because we haven't seen the track. All we have is a screen shot that says "Seattle Short". What do we have as far as evidence on "career mode" besides screen shots of things like driving missions? I think we need the full dossier to make a judgement on this inclusion or not, but that's just my opinion. We don't change because someone disagrees. I expect that.

It's not just screenshots. Kaz explained the various modes at the coming out party. What we know so far is that there is no traditional offline career mode included as of yet. There was also this, posted earlier by @TRGTspecialist :

Journo: "There doesn't seem to be a place for that in GT Sport. Is that something that's going to be coming in a future game?"
Kaz: "Of course."
"To add to that, the times have changed since 20 years ago. Back then, it was possible to set up a game that took hundreds of hours to play, where you stepped up a little bit at a time, but nowadays it's not so easy to make a game with that kind of slow progress. We need to design the games with a little bit better tempo for the new audiences."

 

[ScottPuss20]

It's called GT Sport people, not GT7. That should immediately tell you that this is NOT a typical Gran Turismo game. Times have changed a lot and people get bored far more easily then they used to. Which means that in order to get serious attention, you need to do something really, really unique and different, shaking up the market and getting your target audience excited. However, just because certain things are missing from something you love so dearly, you don't jump to the conclusion that the experience will be unpleasant. The world moves at a crazy pace nowadays and if you don't change or adapt with the times, you will get left behind. This is true in so many industries today it's scary.

 

[Com Fox]

It's called GT Sport people, not GT7. That should immediately tell you that this is NOT a typical Gran Turismo game.

True though non typical games usually have some single player campaign. Also Kaz said in an interview this is like GT7 (though I think it is lies to make people think it isn't a Prologue in disguise)

Times have changed a lot and people get bored far more easily then they used to. Which means that in order to get serious attention, you need to do something really, really unique and different,

So removing something that is the only that some people can play, is unique in a positive light? Except for removing something, this seems to be the same old GT anyway just with an e-sport element on top if it.

Also tell that to Mario, Pokemon, Call of Duty etc.

you need to do something really, really unique and different, shaking up the market and getting your target audience excited.

Sonic and even card games like, Yugioh try that, they just receive backlash for moving away too much. Besides this isn't very, very different just because 1 mode of play is removed. That's like saying Mario Kart 7 is unique from Mario Kart Wii because MK7 removed Single Player VS Mode.

However, just because certain things are missing from something you love so dearly, you don't jump to the conclusion that the experience will be unpleasant.

What about those with poor internet, or that you pretty much have to pay extra for online to even play this games main features? The thing is, the thing that got people hooked into GT in the first place is because of GT2, GT3 and GT4 Single Player mode, some of these players don't care for online when it was included in GT5 (I didn't care once Private GTP Online Racing Leagues became very scarce).

The world moves at a crazy pace nowadays and if you don't change or adapt with the times, you will get left behind.

I agree, however but again, nothing is really changing, just being removed. Also it doesn't really mean you are being left behind, I mean PCars, Forza 6 etc. still support single player mode (Forza even supports Split Screen) and they are considered with the times and fantastic games.

This is true in so many industries today it's scary.

Tell that to the game franchises I mentioned above.

Also I find ironic you posted this when GT is very behind in majority of other aspect *cough*sound*cough*

 

[Sertsa]

As an FYI, since the sales numbers of GT games has come up, some information might help inform the discussion. These are worldwide sales numbers from http://www.polyphony.co.jp/products/

Gran Turismo:_____________10,850,000
Gran Turismo 2:____________9,370,000
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec:_____14,890,000
Gran Turismo Concept Series:_1,560,000
Gran Turismo 4 Prologue:____ 1,400,000
Gran Turismo 4:___________11,760,000
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue:____ 5,350,000
Gran Turismo PSP:__________4,650,000
Gran Turismo 5:___________11,940,000
Gran Turismo 6:____________4,880,000
Total:___________________76,640,000


I figured 6's sales would be lower than the other main titles, but I didn't think they'd be that much lower. Even GT5 Prologue outsold it.

 

[Brutaka]

The addition of a lot more games in the car market is probably one reason why. In the previous decade, if you wanted a realistic racing game on consoles, GT was pretty much your best option. Now we have about 5 relatively good options against GT.

 

[7HO]

It is the very opposite of a biased poll. It is asked of GAMERS, Not fans of a specific franchise.

Ask players of any GAME and you then get a biased response.

They ask the same thing every year and the result is the same every year. Online is a minority interest. One player is the majority choice. End Of.

You're missing the point, the question is tailored at a response because it is presenting an unrealistic scenario. If you want to know what gamers play then the poll should simply ask "What do you play?" with these options.

1. Online multiplayer only.
2. Single player only.
3. Both.

And you would see very different results. Then you could clarify the results with frequency questions. But general gaming results might not apply to a genre like racing so then it is better to be a specific poll. In this case a poll more like this would be better.

1. I rarely or never play driving games.
2. I like all driving games.
3. I like all driving games but prefer online game play.
4. I like all driving games but prefer single player game play.
   
5. I mostly like easy arcade style driving games and I like both online and single player modes.
6. I mostly like easy arcade style driving games that are single player.
7. I mostly like easy arcade style driving games that are multiplayer.
8. I mostly like simulation racing/driving games and I like both online and single player modes.
   
9. I mostly like simulation racing/driving games that are single player.
10. I mostly like simulation racing games that are online.

What a poll like this would show is results that are relevant to the market because a developer interested in making a popular driving game should not be interested in the responses of people who have no interest in driving games. So the results of a poll like this require a little more calculating because the response who picked 1 would be disregarded. And then you can combine the tallys to answer a range of questions and paint a more accurate picture of the market. 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 and 10 all like online gaming but not all like the same type of game. With a poll such as this you can find how much interest there is in online racing in the car game genre.

But as I pointed out earlier the biggest nail in the coffin of the poll results posted is they do not reflect real gaming statistics and real gaming statistics are a very good indicator of the popularity of online gaming, here's a not so subtle hint, online gaming is huge!

Granted I think they are hiding Gr. 2. Trying to not reveal too much of the game and its cars, (Probably contains race cars that are faster than GT3 though slower than LMP1).

So I don't think we know all the details of events in general though I do think it is unlikely PD will come out and show us actual single player events as while Cars and Classes are not fully revealed, what to do with them seemed to be spot on with information.

Gr. 2. would not make sense. Gr. 1. is a mirror of FIA prototype racing but mostly or purely fictional. The 1 would be a reference to FIA LMP1 and would also indicate the top or fastest class. Gr. 3. is a mirror class of FIA GT3 which has replaced GT2. GT2 style racing is not really suitable for online racing because the rules are set to balance performance but this allows manufacturers to build OP cars. GT3 on the other hand lets manufacturers a lot more room to build what they want with very few restrictions and balance of performance is them done by forcing a restrictor to the intake, weight penalties and fuel tank size. This provides great variety in the field with some of the closest championships you are ever going to see and provides entertaining racing because different cars will have different strengths but overall they should all be very well balanced and capable of winning a championship. Gr. 4. reflects GT4, these are track cars, they are production based cars with very limited modification. Unlike GT3 which is a RWD class only GT4 cars retain their standard drive type. The performance of GT4 cars is generally slower than GT3 cars. N. class is clearly the street based class and my prediction is this will be stock standard factory cars racing against each other on street based tyres. I doubt there will be any other classes than these and I think traditional GT modifications will not be a part of this title.

Then you have 2 main types of competition Manufacturer and Nations. Manufacturer should provide some great racing because the qualifying races will likely be single make series and while some people think they have alread selected their manufacturer chances are after people have tried the cars they might change their mind especially if something like an MX5 Gr. 4. or a low powered front wheel drive N. class. provides the most fun racing. Just like on iRacing you will probably find the most popular and fun racing is at the lower levels in slower cars and this is actually true for most online sims.

I suppose, but that's not really very helpful.

Whereas it is somewhat useful to consider that there's no substantially similar competitor to Forza Motorsport that is more modern than GT6, whereas there's several substantially similar competitors to GTS.

FM7 doesn't really need to be "better" than GTS, because it's such a different style of game. But GTS still has to compete with pCARS, AC, and if they go super hard on the online championships thing, then ultimately iRacing too. Previously Gran Turismo was very different to those sorts of games and offered things that they didn't, but it looks to me like there's an awful lot of overlap between major features.

Photomode excepted, that remains a Gran Turismo speciality.

GT Sport is iRacing for the console and nothing more. It will have no direct competition on console. However just like iRacing it will have competition from league racing and this is why it needs to compete with quality and features from games like PCARS and AC. I have no doubt that it will not match the quality or features of iRacing in this generation of its release and since it isn't a subscription game if this is a successful project we may have to buy a new title to get new features in the future, you know just like a subscription but one that actually fractures the community which is why this type of system is inferior to a subscription based service or free to play model. On the other hand out of the box GTS might have some superior features to iRacing depending on how the license events and driver rating systems are implemented. I have no faith that PD will deliver but if they implement these systems well it is possible that they could provide better quality online racing than iRacing but possibly without the same level of realism. The question will then be which do people prefer more?

And then I must concede that this may be huge no matter what. When I consider COD vs Battlefield, BF4 is amazing and when I look at it I wonder how anyone could be interested in COD. BF4 is one of my kids favourite games especially now that they have PS4's but I'm sure Insurgency is still a favourite of theirs. The thing is the kids tell me when they first started playing Battlefield they didn't like it and went back to COD because it was too hard, these days they think COD is a joke. Both of these are just as popular to each other and appeal to a different type of player.

So GTS will probably be popular no matter what. Ultimately there is nothing competing against it on console, ultimately no matter how bad it is compared to iRacing you will see the top iRacers competing on GT Sport if this becomes a serious entry to esports. I believe this will be bigger than iRacing but I also think no matter what this will be good for sim racing, this will develop new racers who will learn of other sims and when some of these who can afford a better experience realise that racing with triples or superior VR is better and realise that DD wheels are better and Simvibe is better and hydraulic pedals are better, those guys will switch over to PC. Affordable plug and play racing will be a bigger market so there will always be more people racing on console. With GT's focus on easy driving and with what I imagine will be a lifeless and boring game environment you can be sure the experience for wheel and pedal users will always be disappointing compared to iRacing and you can be sure that the racing experience will be disappointing compared to iRacing and I'm pretty sure this is set to be the COD of online racing.

So FM7 will have no competition at what it does for now and honestly it hasn't had competiton for a long time. Even if we see GT7 I very much doubt GT will ever be serious competition to Forza again. But this new direction in GTS will also have no direct competition and the competition it has from titles like PCARS can safely be compared to the competition PCARS presents to FM7. These are all different titles with different focusses. The one title that is promising to try and do it all is Automobilista but I'm not sure we will see that on console and I really can't imagine it ever rivalling the beauty of the other top modern driving games.

But ultimately GT Sport will be providing people a taste of great racing if they get it right. People will get to experience the thrill of racing online which I am sure most console racers who have not raced on PC have never experienced including those who have tried online before. Kind of like comparing pub racing on Simbin or similar to official racing on iRacing. The rush you get from iRacing and the intensity it provides is real, the emotions and response is real, it is real racing. Outside of iRacing in pub racing you start a race and if you can find a full field most will quit before the end of the race. The only way to get something close to official racing on iRacing is through leagues and it still isn't the same even if in some ways leagues are better. I think GT Sport will provide people a taste of this but will not provide the other aspects iRacing provides with its dynamic tracks and conditions which IMO have transformed racing online. So there is a good chance that those people who discober they love online racing through GT Sport will also discover the superior features iRacing has and perhaps this can make sim racing better for everyone.

When i wake up at 8am Saturday morning and want to play gran tourismo there's very few people online. If im on holiday from work and it's a Tuesday morning it's even worse. What use is GTS in this eventuality?

That is a fault of the online systems in GT currently. The systems iRacing has employed are what has made it successful at providing regular online racing. GT Sport will be different to the numbered titles. First the game is online only other than a prologue sized learning/licensing campaign. Second it is taking steps to try and achieve the type of racing that people enjoy and eliminate or control the type of racing that keeps people away. I think GT Sport will be popular but this really depends on how well the online game is built. It will take a great combination of systems similar to those they have described combined with great servers and great netcode and then they will be part of the way to deliver a good online racer which may become popular if people enjoy racing on it.

It's not just screenshots. Kaz explained the various modes at the coming out party. What we know so far is that there is no traditional offline career mode included as of yet. There was also this, posted earlier by @TRGTspecialist :

That isn't entirely accurate. What we know is there is a limited offline experience similar to what we have seen in the past that has been rebranded as a licensing and driver education system. There will be over 100 events in this system and they will be made up of similar challenges to what we have seen in GT in the past combined with some AI experiences that are aimed at teaching driver etiquette and racing techniques. This will no doubt include AI and I would be surprised if this doesn't also include some limited amount of racing. What there will not be is the grind of old or the repetitive career racing with pointless progression which most people will never complete. The limited experience will now serve a purpose, to prepare and license drivers for online racing and if I am reading it correctly this will also play a part in the driver rating so ultimately this is the first part of your career that will play a part in matching you against similar drivers and will most likely determine if you will even have a shot at competing at the top level as I imagine to race in the top splits against the top drivers you will need to be both fast and clean in the licensing component. But the implementation remains to be seen and all we can do is try and fill in the gaps with what we know. What we know is that the licensing and education part of GT Sport is the start of your GT Sport career and it will be similar to parts of the traditional GT series.

It's called GT Sport people, not GT7. That should immediately tell you that this is NOT a typical Gran Turismo game. Times have changed a lot and people get bored far more easily then they used to. Which means that in order to get serious attention, you need to do something really, really unique and different, shaking up the market and getting your target audience excited. However, just because certain things are missing from something you love so dearly, you don't jump to the conclusion that the experience will be unpleasant. The world moves at a crazy pace nowadays and if you don't change or adapt with the times, you will get left behind. This is true in so many industries today it's scary.

Yes you are correct, this will not be your typical GT game but you are also incorrect, this is not a unique game. This is a iRacing clone that will be inferior in certain areas. The one area it will be unique is that it will be on console which is something I am happy to see.

True though non typical games usually have some single player campaign. Also Kaz said in an interview this is like GT7 (though I think it is lies to make people think it isn't a Prologue in disguise)

It isn't a prologue unless you think iRacing is a prologue. Although this will be missing some major features iRacing has this will be a more feature filled title than iRacing, for one the licensing system will be far superior and the driver education on iRacing is non existent. Then PD have the benifit of learning from iRacing's mistakes so they can potentially build a far superior rating system for the purpose of matchmaking and behaviour control.

So removing something that is the only that some people can play, is unique in a positive light? Except for removing something, this seems to be the same old GT anyway just with an e-sport element on top if it.

Nothing has been removed. You need to get over this being called a GT game, this is a spin off game and not part of the numbered series. You will still get all those terrible features people love in the numbered game. If anything there is the possiblity that this could be a permanent split of the franchise and perhaps from here on GT Sport will focus on online multiplayer esports and the GT numbered series will focus on being the single player game. Or perhaps the online component of the numbered series will now be more social based with some free roam capabilities as described in the past. I'm sure there will still be some type of online racing in the numbered series but very different to GT Sport I imagine and GT7 will cater much more to the casual driving gamer.

Sonic and even card games like, Yugioh try that, they just receive backlash for moving away too much. Besides this isn't very, very different just because 1 mode of play is removed. That's like saying Mario Kart 7 is unique from Mario Kart Wii because MK7 removed Single Player VS Mode.

It is very different, if you have no experience with iRacing I'm sure that concept might be harder to understand but this game is PD trying to finally break free of the traditional online gaming model that normal racing games provide which is terrible. It is really important that we see a major title of this type on console because sim racing is very small at the moment and has no esports presence. With GT Sport this could be the beginning of sim racing becomming a serious esport which would then see serious sponsorship and prizes with the potential of people making careers from it.

What about those with poor internet, or that you pretty much have to pay extra for online to even play this games main features? The thing is, the thing that got people hooked into GT in the first place is because of GT2, GT3 and GT4 Single Player mode, some of these players don't care for online when it was included in GT5 (I didn't care once Private GTP Online Racing Leagues became very scarce).

Yes it is an online game, this is not a title for the typical GT buyer. For now if single player is all you are intersted in and you have a PS4 something like PCARS will hopefully meet your needs. GT7 will come at a later date and if all people are interested in is single player career and more content then it shouldn't be long after GT Sport is feature complete because the work involved for those is not as great as building the online game and GT7 will no doubt be built on the same engine. However if the numbered series does take some time it may mean they are working on new features that will give GT7 more depth.

I agree, however but again, nothing is really changing, just being removed. Also it doesn't really mean you are being left behind, I mean PCars, Forza 6 etc. still support single player mode (Forza even supports Split Screen) and they are considered with the times and fantastic games.

A lot is changing but the biggest change can be summed up in one word, matchmaking. Achieving good matchmaking is not an easy task, the goal is to match drivers against similar skilled drivers and while that might seem easy enough there are a variety of skills in racing and being fast doesn't mean you are a good race driver. Being a great race driver requires a combination of being fast, being consistent and safe and having great race craft or the ability to race well, set up passes, race strategically, finish races and be clean. Of course GTS will be too simple to form a complete driver because for strategy to play a part you need things like dynamic tracks and dynamic weather combined with realistic tyre wear and damage so if you want the strategy you will most likely need to go to iRacing. But GT Sport will have a driver rating system that if implemented well can revolutionise online racing on console. They will also have a licensing progression that will provide certain people with a real world race license. They also have a partnership with the most important real life racing body in the world, the FIA and this are official FIA championships where drivers will receive real world recognition as champions. Currently only iRacing has this with their Pro NASCAR championship.

As for stuff being removed. They must remove or change certain things to achieve a serious sim especially if current technology they use would prevent the development of superior realism systems. For example if they have a dynamic effect that isn't realistic then for a serious online racing sim it is better to just remove it and not have it at all but if you want it then you should start from scratch. The traditional single player mode has no place in a title like this and that is why it is removed. Instead they will rebrand parts of it into the events that make up the entry to online driver training and this is a small but substantial change. Again if they do this right this can be a significant part of your online career and if this is implemented right it might even force people who don't take it seriously the first time to redo events in order to improve their driver rating for the purpose of matchmaking but that part may be wishful thinking on my part.

As an FYI, since the sales numbers of GT games has come up, some information might help inform the discussion. These are worldwide sales numbers from http://www.polyphony.co.jp/products/

Gran Turismo:_____________10,850,000
Gran Turismo 2:____________9,370,000
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec:_____14,890,000
Gran Turismo Concept Series:_1,560,000
Gran Turismo 4 Prologue:____ 1,400,000
Gran Turismo 4:___________11,760,000
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue:____ 5,350,000
Gran Turismo PSP:__________4,650,000
Gran Turismo 5:___________11,940,000
Gran Turismo 6:____________4,880,000
Total:___________________76,640,000


I figured 6's sales would be lower than the other main titles, but I didn't think they'd be that much lower. Even GT5 Prologue outsold it.

As a comparison since iRacing started less than 236000 people have tried it and that includes test accounts and people with multiple accounts. Even if GT Sports sales are just 1.5 million this will be the most significant thing that has happened to sim racing probably ever.

 

[Gazronicus]

I am not that bothered with the lack of career tbh. Career mode since GT5 has been lackluster, cookie cutter races with AI as rolling roadblocks. They just serve to spread out the grind to collect cars, and doesn't really offer any challenge or enjoyment. It looks like all cars will be available from the start in GTS, so that's the grinding out of the way. The Mission Races in GTS will hopefully be challenging. I'll use arcade mode if I want to set up an offline race. And race online if I want proper racing instead of playing catch the rabbit.

The next GT game (whether they call it 7 or 8, who knows?) will undoubtedly see the return of career mode, so it's not like it's gone forever either.

It will be to late by then. Many people will leave in droves