GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

[cobragt]

May I ask what other racers have track times 2 to 5 sec off from the real thing? I'm yet to hear this about any other racer and that seems to be the main thing hyping gt4; having realistic track times and the tracks in the games are perfect recreation. I know the nurb is 15MM off from the real thing, sheer realism. Gt4 is the driving sim. Gt4's physics are very advanced, it might not have the elements of racing, like brake fade but when it comes down to driving, gt4 will excel.

 

[kinigitt]

There is absolutely no use arguing with people who don't see reason. Apparently, they've started a Gran Turismo theology on these boards, and anyone who would dare call any other game more realistic is a heretic. I guess that's why PC gamers don't congregate round these parts. It's ridiculous.

 

[Robin]

Hmmm.......Gran Turismo Planet...........Gran Turismo Forum.........Gran Turismo 4 Forum.............

Its understandable!

 

[kinigitt]

I was talking about forza. Every game can be made to have realistic track times eh? What other games may I ask have track time 2 to 5 sec off from the real thing? I'm yet to hear this about anyother racer. Gt4 is the driving sim. Gt4's physics are very advanced, it might not have the elements of racing, like brake fade but when it comes down to driving, gt4 will excel.

Okay, I'm not the type to flame people, but I have to ask... Is cobragt a marketing robot? You know the type that randomly quote developer prose in threads to generate hype? It's really sad. We all know about that press conference, and we've witnessed the bit about lap times. That in itself should be taken with a grain of salt, my friend. Remember when they boasted about GT3's "aggressive A.I." that reacts? Also, as others have said, track times can be manipulated slightly, so they can attain realistic times without completely realistic means.

The same should be said for people taking all of the Forza development team's comments for gospel.

Remember, these are their games, their babies. They may be just a tiny bit biased.

Please formulate your own opinions and post them. Don't just regurgitate press conference clippings to win arguments. You never win on a message board.

 

[kinigitt]

Hmmm.......Gran Turismo Planet...........Gran Turismo Forum.........Gran Turismo 4 Forum.............

Its understandable!

I guess most of the rational people just lurk.

PC gamers that enjoy Gran Turismo, yet also realise it is NOT the pinnacle of realistic racing games.

 

[Robin]

Im sorry but in a GRAN TURISMO FORUM.........................IT IS!

 

[Robin]

Nice edit there 👍

 

[Pak]

I was talking about forza. Every game can be made to have realistic track times eh? What other games may I ask have track time 2 to 5 sec off from the real thing? I'm yet to hear this about anyother racer. Gt4 is the driving sim. Gt4's physics are very advanced, it might not have the elements of racing, like brake fade but when it comes down to driving, gt4 will excel.

So you were talking about forza.

Yep, and in one of their presentation vids, it said some of the driving is unrealistic and trying it in real life would be dangerous

Same thing for GT, very unrealistic and dangerous in real life.

From what I have seen GT4's physics are crap, you're saying that GT4 will excel in driving physics >> crap, you just can't say.

Oh and the laptimes, yeah there are no games with laptimes as accurate as GT4's, except for GTR. But if you take something like Ridge Racer and let those cars drive around GT4's nurburgring they would get unrealistic laptimes... if too fast, just slow them down, nothing to do with physics.
GT4 probably has realistic perfomance for the cars, 0-60/topspeed etc. But realistic handling is like not being able to floor the gas in a tight corner without losing control in a 500HP+ JGTC car.
GT4 could get that right, but you don't know for sure.

 

[Zer0]

You know the type that randomly quote developer prose in threads to generate hype? It's really sad. We all know about that press conference, and we've witnessed the bit about lap times. That in itself should be taken with a grain of salt, my friend. Remember when they boasted about GT3's "aggressive A.I." that reacts? Also, as others have said, track times can be manipulated slightly, so they can attain realistic times without completely realistic means.

http://www.ps2on.com/fotos/gt4comp.mov

 

[kinigitt]

Nice edit there 👍

That's what the button is there for!

Thanks for the vid.

Don't get me wrong, I was enthralled when I heard the part about Nissan's top testers getting laps times within 2 seconds (or whatever percentage of accuracy). But getting hit over the head with the statements so many times by the likes of cobragt in just about every thread he posts in? Well that just turns me off. It's a neat accomplishment, but it shouldn't be used as the basis of every argument concerning GT's physics engine. It is only one aspect.

 

[cobragt]

So you were talking about forza.

Yep, and in one of their presentation vids, it said some of the driving is unrealistic and trying it in real life would be dangerous

Same thing for GT, very unrealistic and dangerous in real life.

From what I have seen GT4's physics are crap, you're saying that GT4 will excel in driving physics >> crap, you just can't say.

Oh and the laptimes, yeah there are no games with laptimes as accurate as GT4's, except for GTR. But if you take something like Ridge Racer and let those cars drive around GT4's nurburgring they would get unrealistic laptimes... if too fast, just slow them down, nothing to do with physics.
GT4 probably has realistic perfomance for the cars, 0-60/topspeed etc. But realistic handling is like not being able to floor the gas in a tight corner without losing control in a 500HP+ JGTC car.
GT4 could get that right, but you don't know for sure.

So gt4's physics are crap now? If you think that I doubt you have even seen gt4. Gt4 has near perfect handling for the cars, I dont know where you are getting this bs from but gt4 has the most advanced physics of any console racer. The only thing gt4 doesn't have right is power of the cars at acceleration. If you put the gas to the floor, you should have a hard time handling the car but when it comes to turns, braking, etc, gt4 has it all set. Like its title says, it's the real driving simulator.

 

[cobragt]

http://www.ps2on.com/fotos/gt4comp.mov

Thank you again zero.

 

[Dave A]

May I ask what other racers have track times 2 to 5 sec off from the real thing? I'm yet to hear this about any other racer and that seems to be the main thing hyping gt4; having realistic track times and the tracks in the games are perfect recreation. I know the nurb is 15MM off from the real thing, sheer realism. Gt4 is the driving sim. Gt4's physics are very advanced, it might not have the elements of racing, like brake fade but when it comes down to driving, gt4 will excel.

Okay, listen carefully Cobra, you don't seem to get the point, realistic laptimes can be achieved with any physics model in a race game, all the cars in GT are set by a number of parameters, these are things like power, weight, drive ect. Now if PD made a Viper GTS for example and put it on a track where in real life that car did a lap in 1'15 dead, they could achieve that without using the perfect physics model, if the car could turn better or worse, and it's acceleration could be better or worse ect ect, GT is by no means poor in the car handling, it's the best on a console. I think we need to call the firebrigade though, to get your head out of poor Mr Kazanouri's ass.

 

[Pak]

So gt4's physics are crap now? If you think that I doubt you have even seen gt4. Gt4 has near perfect handling for the cars, I dont know where you are getting this bs from but gt4 has the most advanced physics of any console racer. The only thing gt4 doesn't have right is power of the cars at acceleration. If you put the gas to the floor, you should have a hard time handling the car but when it comes to turns, braking, etc, gt4 has it all set. Like its title says, it's the real driving simulator.

Ok, I've seen lots of vids where people are braking too hard in corners or accelerating too hard in corners, nothing realistic happened. That's why I said: from what I've seen GT4's physics are crap.
Oversteer, understeer, accelerating and braking are all part of the physics but in those vids it's not realistic. So FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN the physics are crap compared to pc sims (I already said earlier that GT has good physics compared to other console racers) and I said that Polyphony COULD GET IT RIGHT but you just can't say for sure.
You should realise that atm you can't be sure which game will have the best handling/physics in the end.

 

[cobragt]

And how many vids of the latest build have you seen? From what I have heard from people who played the latest build, everything is set. You can ask board member jizzk(sp) who played gt4 at e3. He said it was the most realistic thing he has played. Amar has the new gt4 demo and how he described how the cars handle, shows gt4 has its physics set. You can read the previews from E3. So until you actually have something to back your claims up, you can shut up about gt4 having bad physics when compared to some pc sim that's as realistic as Gran Prix 4.

 

[JAGUAR]

It is getting a little tiring to hear rants by PC Sim players with a superiority complex.

I've played all of the PC sims, including GPL and the latest GTR demo, and they are superb, no doubt about it.

Complaints could be leveled at GT3 for its handling, what with steering assists etc. However GT4 is a completly different kettle of fish. Even GT4P, with the Logitech Pro wheel, exhibits all of the realistic driving characteristics you find in the best PC sims, with no driving assists to be seen.

The latest build of GT4 is meant to be even better, with locking wheels etc.

Slag off GT3 all you like, but leave GT4 alone until you actually play it.

Edit: Just to add, it annoys me so much when the likes of GPLs cars are compared to a JGTC car for example, in terms of handling difficulty. The 60s F1 cars in GPL handle realistically, while the JGTC cars in GT4P also handle realistically.

It is a little silly comparing a 60s F1 car with 400BHP, narrow 30 year old treaded tires and no downforce, with a 500BHP JGTC car, with wide sticky slicks, high downforce and god knows how many electronic aids to put the power down.

Do you see JGTC cars sliding all over the shop like a Lotus 49. Don't think so!

 

[cobragt]

GT4p was bases off the last year E3 build of gt4. The latest gt4 build is alot better in physics.

 

[Dave A]

I agree witrh that, but at the same time, people here can't be slagging off other games like orza until they are actualy out and have been played. If someone want's to praise GT4 fine but to say it's better than another game when neither are out and they haven't played either is wrong.

 

[cobragt]

But I have the right to praise gt4 from all the positive responses from people actually played the latest build and didn't jizzk say forza was on the arcadey side, I believe he did. Gaming sites do have a habit of over rating a game but I'm getting all this positive feedback from people, individuals who have played gt4. People I know went to the ozzfest(dont like rock) and they have told me a gt4 demo was on display with other ps2 games. It was the same demo featured at E3 and they all have said the physics were spot on, or the most realistic game they have played.

 

[Pak]

And how many vids of the latest build have you seen? From what I have heard from people who played the latest build, everything is set. You can ask board member jizzk(sp) who played gt4 at e3. He said it was the most realistic thing he has played. Amar has the new gt4 demo and how he described how the cars handle, shows gt4 has its physics set. You can read the previews from E3. So until you actually have something to back your claims up, you can shut up about gt4 having bad physics when compared to some pc sim that's as realistic as Gran Prix 4.

I've seen about every vid of GT4 and you can see two bars at the gameplay vids: brake and throttle. A lot of throttle is aplied at some places where you should spin out. I have not played the very latest build so I cannot judge that AND YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING FFS
The gameplay vids I've seen are not as realistic as GTR or Live for Speed. BUT the final build of GT4 could have the best physics of all time. GET IT!?!

you can shut up about gt4 having bad physics when compared to some pc sim that's as realistic as Gran Prix 4 R O F L

I'm saying the GT4 builds in the vids I've seen have bad physics compared to some pc sim that is much more realistic than Grand Prix 4. you #$%%.

It is getting a little tiring here rants by PC Sim players with a superiority complex.

I've played all of the PC sims, including GPL and the latest GTR demo, and they are superb, no doubt about it.

Complaints could be leveled at GT3 for its handling, what with steering assists etc. However GT4 is a completly different kettle of fish. Even GT4P, with the Logitech Pro wheel, exhibits all of the realistic driving characteristics you find in the best PC sims, with no driving assists to be seen.

The latest build of GT4 is meant to be even better, with locking wheels etc.

Slag off GT3 all you like, but leave GT4 alone until you actually play it.

Ok, first, \0/ PC Sim players with a superiority complex. BS. I'm no fanboy of any game unlike CobraGT.

Slag off GT3 all you like, but leave GT4 alone until you actually play it.

Yeah that's what I was saying, can't say GT4 will have bad physics in the end.
But I CAN judge GT4's physics and the things I've seen in all those vids.

 

[Pak]

But I have the right to praise gt4 from all the positive responses from people actually played the latest build and didn't jizzk say forza was on the arcadey side, I believe he did. Gaming sites do have a habit of over rating a game but I'm getting all this positive feedback from people, individuals who have played gt4. People I know went to the ozzfest(dont like rock) and they have told me a gt4 demo was on display with other ps2 games. It was the same demo featured at E3 and they all have said the physics were spot on, or the most realistic game they have played.

GT4 can be all that, but you don't know how Forza is going to be when it's finished.

Edit:

Edit: Just to add, it annoys me so much when the likes of GPLs cars are compared to a JGTC car for example, in terms of handling difficulty. The 60s F1 cars in GPL handle realistically, while the JGTC cars in GT4P also handle realistically.

It is a little silly comparing a 60s F1 car with 400BHP, narrow 30 year old treaded tires and no downforce, with a 500BHP JGTC car, with wide sticky slicks, high downforce and god knows how many electronic aids to put the power down.

Do you see JGTC cars sliding all over the shop like a Lotus 49. Don't think so!

JGTC cars can be compared to FIA GT cars. Both not easy to handle and ABS, TCS etc. are all prohibited.
Try GTR to find out how the JGTC cars should drive in GT4.

 

[cobragt]

There aren't even enough vids of the latest build to judge off from so you are full of bs. I'm basing my opinion on the opinions of individuals who actually played the game. What about you? Judging from old builds I bet. Whatever man, gt4 will be the driving sim.

 

[Victor Vance]

That is basically what I was trying to say......but I don't think at the spur of the moment it was phrazed very well......Basically what you said is correct.....GT has this X factor that Mircosoft wont be able to claim overnight.

Im glad that some of you have now finally decoded what I was trying to say!

Robin

So Forza's only for the Xbox?

I vote GT4.

 

[Pak]

There aren't even enough vids of the latest build to judge off from so you are full of bs. I'm basing my opinion on the opinions of individuals who actually played the game. What about you? Judging from old builds I bet. Whatever man, gt4 will be the driving sim.

Read my posts better please.
I said, I've not played the very latest build so I can't judge that. I don't even know what the latest build is.

All I'm saying is that the car handling in the vids I've seen is not realistic.

I don't know if it's my spelling or what. Why can't you understand?

I'm basing my opinion on the opinions of individuals who actually played the game.

Have those individuals played the final builds of Forza AND GT4. NO!
So.... you are probably getting it by now (hope so), it's not possible to tell which final game will have better physics. Agree?

 

[incubusnb]

here you all are sitting here telling each other how Formula 1's and JGTC cars should handle when i'll bet large ammounts of money that none of you have actually driven either, unless your a professional race car driver you have no right to tell everyone how a Professional race car should handle.

who knows, maybe the origianl Test Drive got it right for all we really know, one thing is probably certain, neither GT4 nor Forza have it perfect, but they've both got some things really close... that goes for GT-R and Live for Speed too

 

[Pak]

here you all are sitting here telling each other how Formula 1's and JGTC cars should handle when i'll bet large ammounts of money that none of you have actually driven either, unless your a professional race car driver you have no right to tell everyone how a Professional race car should handle.

who knows, maybe the origianl Test Drive got it right for all we really know, one thing is probably certain, neither GT4 nor Forza have it perfect, but they've both got some things really close... that goes for GT-R and Live for Speed too

True, but you don't have to be a genious to figure out that you can't floor a 600bhp car in a slow corner.

 

[Dave A]

Exactley, you can drive the cars like your drink and not spin them in GT, the principals are all there, it's just too easy to control the car.

 

[Pak]

Off topic, FIA GT 24hrs spa @ eurosport.

 

[_aj]

After reading this thread and seeing all the nonsense along with the good and bad and absurd (erm.. cobra) I want to put my view forward. Usually only being a console racer I was at my mates and he has not long built himself an monster of a pc capable of handing any game out just now and in the near future and I got a chance to try these PC sims including netKar, Live for Speed and the fantastic GTR and I have to say GT's physic's are not as true to life as you would think.

The reason I say this is when a 500BHP+ rear wheel drive car goes over a bump it becomes unbalanced and you are very lucky if you can keep from facing the wrong way or smashing head or side first into a barrier. Also the gravel traps are exactly that, they trap your car, you can't speed out and back on the track and even if you do try and speed out it's spin-city for you !! These PC sims are seriously impressive and I respect them a great deal and I now want to build a PC and get a wheel like my mate so I can put in good lap times. (BTW I got a 2.50.054 on Spa after 10 laps )

Now after reading many an article on Forza I can see that the development team are as passionate as those in PD and I am very sure that Forza will be one hell of a game that will appeal to the casual racer as well as the pure racer but the (as of now) lack of a FFB wheel may hinder it with the latter. I love GT don't get me wrong but after experiencing PC sims it has made me see what as close to real-world sims are like and I hope now that GT does cater to the pure racer's that are out there!!

You can breathe now.

correction: mate just told me it was a 2.46.053 I did.

 

[JAGUAR]

Firstly FIA GT and JGTC cars are very different. JGTC cars have far less power and superior aerodynamics. They are more like a DTM type car with lots of mechnical grip. You can be much more aggressive with the throttle in a JGTC car than an FIA GTS car.

Thats besides the point. You can tell very little about physics from videos. The videos show the attitude of the cars when braking, turning etc. but not much about throttle control, even with the graphical representations of the throttle/brake in the game.

In GT3 you could floor the throttle in a C5-R, GT-ONE with no threat of a spin out. In GT4P you have to feather the throttle of the F1 GTR and feed the power in gradually. If you don't you will spin out almost instantaineasly. Believe me it was a shock, a very pleasant shock, when I discovered this as I was expecting GT4P to be nothing more than a slight rejig of the GT3 physics engine. GT4P is much more difficult than GT3.

I have played many PC sims and GPL/GTR stnad out above the crowd. Many PC sims are 'hard' but the physics are shocking. Same can be said for many console 'Sims'. Anyome remember Total Immersion Racing!

In the end who cares. GT4 will be the most realistic GT game so far, and basing my impressions from the earlier build in GT4P, will be substantially more realistic. Its a must buy. As will be Forza, and GTR, and Enthusia Racing and Richard Burns Rally and whatever is the next big hope. Bring em on.