GT6 Duel of the Week #70: The Grand Finale (well, not really)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by CowboyAce57, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

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    From stats alone, the Esprit might have found its match, But it's torque looks dangerous in comparison!

    image.jpeg image.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
  2. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    The Lotus is already tested on Trial Mountain, the Nissan not yet, but having used that a few times in lobbies, it is indeed quite a good car. I'll give it a run tomorrow, but I think as good as the Lotus handling is, the 240RS will still be in front.
     
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  3. Ryk

    Ryk

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    Pretty close on track despite a few oddball things like the Nissan's close ratio gearbox and sneaky semi slick tyres. I had to swap the tyres on the Nissan to Comfort Softs - Then I had to take the Surface to Air missile out of the back of the Esprit to please the girl who flies the helicopter for the camera crew.
     
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  4. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Just took both cars for a test on the Eiger Nordwand time trial. For 10 minutes each, I drove each car around the track to get a good feel for their handling, and overall behavior. Since this is a mountainous track as well, it's also good to see how they tackle elevation changes.

    Silvia - 1:15.694
    Esprit - 1:15.830

    The Silvia is more planted and stable, but even then it's susceptible to fishtailing on the gas, and understeering when off it. The Esprit also felt tail-heavy, which spells out oversteer if too much throttle is applied. Both cars may have close "best" laps, but the Esprit spent a lot of time at the 1:17 marks before I adapted enough to whittle it down to the 1:16 and then the 1:15. The Silvia consistently hit the 1:16s before I landed a few laps in the 1:15 range.

    I feel the Silvia stands the better chance of winning on this one.
     
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  5. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

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    Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
    2.2L
    214 hp / 6,000 rpm
    220 ft-lb / 4,500 rpm
    1,146 kg (2,526 lbs)
    425 pp

    Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83
    2.4L
    235 hp / 7,500 rpm
    174 ft-lb / 6,000 rpm
    970 kg (2,138 lbs)
    435 pp

    Silvia has 21 more horses than the Esprit, but 46 fewer ft-lbs of torque. Weight difference is 388 lbs in the Nissan's favor.

    I tested both cars at Mid-Field about a year ago and they both ran 1:24.9's on Comfort Soft tires.




    I prefer the more stable and lightweight Silvia.
     
  6. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Just as I thought, the Silvia is faster on Trial Mountain (both cars were run with no ABS, brakes set to 5 - 3, comfort softs) :

    Nissan Silvia 240RS >>> 01:42,194
    Lotus Esprit Turbo HC >>> 01:42,965

    The Silvia holds it all together nicely. It turns in well, won't lose the rear without being commanded by a frank gas input, and the gearbox is just perfect for tight tracks, and basically every circuit where you don't have to go over 200 kmh. A true rally car. Also, braking even with no ABS is very easy, there's more margin than many cars before locking up.

    The Esprit will need you to show a bit more skills, but it knows how to corner fast. The car is fun and rewarding, and I like that. Gearbox is obviously longer, which is not necessarily a bad thing as the power is spread on lower rpms, and it allows for a higher top speed for longer straights. The car is generally more at ease on faster sections, and would probably score better lap times than the Silvia on a more typical racetrack.

    I really like them both, the Lotus having that bit of charm that will make you smile when fighting the oversteer... but that Silvia is impressively easy to drive, and it will also let you have a bit of fun when you want it. It's like having the choice between two women : a hot nymphomaniac who will sometimes shout at you and then push you on the kitchen table before tearing your clothes off no matter if you're ill with burning hot fever, and a tricksy one who likes to have fun but will let you breathe if you're not in the mood and won't burst into arguments. It's a matter of personal preference. The Silvia is easier to live with, but I like the thrill of challenge. But again, Silvia suits better the kind of tracks I like the most...

    In conclusion, I should put the Silvia as the winner, but I don't really want to make the Esprit the loser, although I don't think it should be crowned as better than the Silvia, but again, it is appealing to me...

    ... is car polygamy a thing ?
     
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  7. lbpomg95

    lbpomg95

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    Esprit every time. Keeps up with the Silvia (sort of) despite being down on power and up on weight.
     
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  8. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Oh god, have we really had Midfield Raceway for a year?

    Good review by the way.
     
  9. Ryk

    Ryk

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    Lotus Esprit Turbo HC vs. Nissan 240RS

    Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
    425pp
    48,550 Kazulas
    214bhp / 30.4 torques
    4191x1860x1113mm
    2174cc Lotus type 910 DOHC Inline 4 with Garrett Turbocharger
    MR powertrain / Comfort Soft Tyres
    1146kg 46:54
    3 Paint chips (White/Red/Black)

    Nissan SILVIA 240RS (S110) '83
    435pp
    72,200 Kazulas
    236bhp / 24 torques
    4300x1800x1310mm
    2340cc FJ24 DOHC Inline 4 Naturally Aspirated
    FR powertrain /Sport Hard Tyres
    970kg 58:42
    1 Paint Chip (White)


    -------- hcrs.jpg

    Hmm Interesting duel. The Silvia has ... stunning looks. In an 80's way - Boxy Flared wheel arches are the automotive equivalent to those Big Shoulder pads 'laydees' used to wear (In the American Football?) in the Schlock Soap Operas churned out of America (Dallas/Dynasty...)
    The Iconic Giugiaro design (not Mirelle pasta shapes!) has been honed for the East Anglian Turbo. 18d3tdi1ggp63jpg.jpg (Another Guigiaro Design, Yesterday)

    Respray -
    Silvia 240RS - Matte Purple (To try to evoke the Datsun Violet winning Safari spirit!)
    Lotus Esprit - Pasta Yellow (To get that Dangermouse look.)


    Eiger Nordwand (No Driver aids - No corner cutting - Lots of locked wheels and powerslides.)
    The Eiger Sanction

    Lotus Esprit was first - Car was just as much fun as you could want for a light mid engined car with Comfort tyres- It did break traction and had a fun sized portion of high speed oversteer. Fast corners need to be taken with gentle steering inputs "Soft hands - Heavy feet"- This is a surgical instruments that slices through apexes but you have to either have perfect car placement or the natural balance a cat would be proud of. If you start to give it the "elbows out" style of forceful driving you will over work the tyres and bleed out time in huge low hanging clouds of tyre smoke.


    The car would get the 1'18's without too much hassle but as you push harder the car becomes a bit more high spirited - You have to keep the balance of the car under your control if she does step out then you will have to work hard to right things - sideways and the car bleeds off time that the modest engine will not let you recover from.
    1m18.155 (33.0/23.3/21.8) Lotus Esprit Turbo HC

    Nissan Silvia 240RS
    10pp more and much lighter than the chunky, Esprit (Did I really say that!) - But the Nissan was built as a homologation Rally car - so it is a bit unfairThe Nissan has more power. But it also has much better tyres! Let's make this a fair fight. Silvia was fitted with Comfort Softs to make things fair.

    1m17.937 (33.2/22.9/21.6)Nissan Silvia 240RS
    Took me 5 laps to beat the Esprit's time, but the Silvia was bogged down with Understeer into corners - Once you over load the front tyres, the car just ploughs on, so you really have to slow the car down, then try to steer into the corner - It is a bit keen to light up the rears on exit as well, so lots for the driver to get involved with. But why was it faster?
    Gearbox seemed to be much more punchy - I doubt the Nissan has much top speed with these ratios.

    Not a walk over by either car. Until that Moment of inspiration I was 2 tenths off the Esprit - So one locked wheel and I'd be saying walk over for the Esprit... But I didn't!

    --------------

    So we have a proper fight.

    Lets get off a few rounds in first...

    Round 1 Paint chips
    The Lotus hardly impresses with three but that is two more than the Nissan - The plus side is that both cars can be resprayed.

    Esprit 10 - Silvia 9​

    Round 2 Price
    This is also factoring in Tyre equality - So the Nissan has to buy a set of Comfort Softs (1550 extra) and the Lotus needs a set of (Never to be used!) Semi Slick Sports Hard (6,700 extra)
    Even with the Lotus shelling out that it is still much cheaper than the Rally Specification Silvia.

    Esprit 10 (20) - Silvia 9 (18)​

    Round 3 Horn
    This could go either way the Nissan has a loud trumpet of a horn, the Esprit has a "Ciao Bella!" horn that is Eurotrash kitch.

    Esprit 10 (30) - Silvia 9 (27)​

    Round 4 Looks : Design classic or a Modern Art Masterpiece
    Pop up lamps, Louvered rear window and a design that must rank as one of Giugiaro best Vs a Boxey car that looks like it should be in the Mad Max movie. The Silvia is pretty rough but it has some charm about its functional lines. The brutal front end almost taunts you to look a second time - Like a feisty gothic girl with some ironmongery in her face. (Don't look at her bolt on wheel arches!) I am almost tempted to split the round but look at that Esprit. It looks almost pure and delicate - The Lotus lads did a nice job of doing touching up the old Giugiaro masterpiece over the years.

    Esprit 10 (40) - Silvia 9 (36)​

    Round 5 Eiger (The first fight - Comfort Softs)
    The Silvia just managed to edge the Esprit here in terms of ultimate lap time. Handling wise I felt like I was having more fun with the Esprit balancing the oversteer than I was having to babysit the car into the corners to prevent a tantrum of understeer.

    Looking at my sluggish replays it looks like the Nissan has the whip hand in the straights while the Lotus dominates in the turns. Maybe the Lotus Gearbox is weak? Maybe a Top Speed test will reveal the Nissan has a tricksy close ratio box for racing while the Lotus has a longer set of cogs for economical stuff...

    Esprit 9 (49) - Silvia 10 (46)​

    Round 6 I Feel the Need, the Need for (High) Speed (Ring).
    (Kenny Loggins needs to be playing)

    Nissan 126mph (5th gear Rev Limited)
    Lotus 150mph (5th gear Track limited - Maybe even more potential speed)
    On pure numbers this is a demolition job in terms of ultimate speed. The Lotus is close to 20% faster...

    This really gives a clue to a trick the Silvia has. The close ratio gearbox gives the 240RS much more of an edge in terms of acceleration- but the cost is that the gearbox strangles any hope of a stock car winning on anything close to a Big boy circuit - Despite the Eigar test implying the Silvia had the edge in terms of straight line pace.

    Esprit 10 (59) - Silvia 8 (54)​

    Round 7 - Matterhorn Rotenboden Clubman Cup 500PP : Race 1

    1m55.261 (5m55.885) Esprit
    1m55.843 (5m52.294) Silvia

    Esprit faster over one (clean) lap but over the full distance the Silvia had the edge - Could have been traffic Both cars had a clean air final lap - and that had the Lotus ahead by over half a second. siljack.jpg

    Esprit 10 (69) - Silvia 10 (64)​


    Round 8 - Circuito di Roma Clubman Cup 500PP : Race 2

    1m24.198 (4m19.558) Esprit
    1m23.711 (4m14.266) Silvia
    Comprehensive Victory for the Nissan - Almost half a second faster a lap in clean air and faster over the race distance by over 5 thick seconds. Magnifico! Did the Esprit have too much pasta for lunch?

    Esprit 8(77) Silvia 10 (74)​


    Round 9 Mountpanoramamotorracingcircuit (Bathurst) Clubman Cup 500PP : Race 3

    2m37.014 - (7m57.665) Esprit
    2m36.734 - (7m59.454) Silvia

    Despite the Silvia pummelling the FJ24's rev limiter for most of the Conrod Straight, it still managed to edge the Esprit in terms of out and out pace. But over the race distance the Esprit had the edge. That gearbox of the Silvia cost it a lot of top speed but it gave it a lot of energy and acceleration up the big steep hill! - Both cars were great fun here the Twisty section is extremely rewarding to dance through - I just wish the track didn't have to go all the way back to the pits. lotusbath.jpg

    Esprit 10 (87) Silvia (10 (84)​


    Round 10 - Handling issues

    Basic handling of the car - This should go to the Esprit with a light low slung mid engine car that is responsive and rotates easily with a bit of play.
    The Silvia is much more easy to understand - Loads of weight over the front axel means the car is super stable - But the light weight means its mechanical addiction to understeer isn't as bad as it sounds and with a bit of forward planning the car is very fast. Handling is a personal thing and I enjoy oversteer and tolerate understeer. Both are manageable and I enjoyed both cars neither had too much (But can you ever have too much oversteer?)

    Esprit 10 (97) Silvia 9 (93)​


    Round 11 - Engine Note

    In line 4 cylinder engines - One is turbocharged - the other isn't. - But how do they sound? The Nissan is the big disappointment... when you change into the car in the garage area you get this rich burbly engine start up - but when you actually drive it... it is almost as normal as the Esprit. The FJ24 revs a bit higher but the Esprit has a Turbocharger forcing the issue... I think I have to go with the Nissan as I expected a bit more "The Spy Who Loved Me" from the Esprit (And I also expected a chase with Naomi the Helicopter pilot.)

    Esprit 9 (106) Silvia 10 (103)​


    Round 12 - 10 Laps of Eiger Nordwand (Arcade)
    Comfort Soft tyres and everything off and everything clean on track.
    Both cars had a bit of traffic, but another aspect to how good a car is how well you can drive off the best line and if the car has the ability to overtake cleanly and not get held up (Like the Esprit did in Rome).

    1m17.395 (13m05.303) - Silvia 240RS
    1m17.339 (13m02.725) - Esprit Turbo

    Esprit 10 (116) Silvia 9 (112)


    ----------

    Winner - Lotus Esprit Turbo HC

    The Nissan is right up there on pace if you pick anything except a track with a long flat out section. But I would pick the Esprit as I felt more involved in the corners. The Silvia when it got ragged would slide into understeer into corners. The Esprit - Pop up headlamps, Rear light clusters from a Toyota Corolla and the door handles from a Morris Marina or was it an Austin Allegro. (The flip side is if you did own an Allegro you would point at your 'Lotus Esprit spec' door handles). I had fun at every turn in the Esprit.
    This duel elevated my respect for the Nissan though - even if it did try to win with cheaty gearbox and even cheatier sports tyres!


    Both cars ooze character -
    The Esprit is the lithe agile gymnast: Graceful, flexible and playful. It may not have the muscle but it has the allure and the cat like agility.
    Silvia is the pale gothic girl with a tomboy functionality that ignores conformity of trying to be pleasing to the eye, Yet it ironically is - not from the lines but from the purity of the concept of the design . Silvia is rough tough rally car.

    Both are well worth the drive.
     
  10. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    So, both cars have the potential to be very competitive with the right drivers. The Silvia proved to be slightly better than the Esprit during the official group Time Trial, but at the same time, the longer you spend time with the Esprit, the more you grasp its overall attitude and behavior. This gives you the knowledge that you need to figure out the best way to drive it. Both cars wound up tying this time around on my personal trials.

    Mountain Trial:
    Silvia - 1:52.568
    Esprit - 1:54.559

    City Trial:
    Silvia - 1:38.867
    Esprit - 1:38.390

    Factoring in the TT times I got on Eiger as a tie-breaker.

    Eiger Trial:
    Silvia - 1:15.694
    Esprit - 1:15.830

    I felt pretty "eh" about both cars. The Silvia's potential is readily unlocked and it's easy to hit its fastest times, which makes it more consistent than the Esprit. The Esprit definitely has a greater potential than the Silvia, but the problem is getting there.

    The Silvia wins.
     
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  11. Draggon

    Draggon

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    I just joined the club yesterday and put down a nice time in the lobby ( BilboStig ) in the Nissan. I didn't think I'd like this car. While it took 5 or 6 laps to get used to.it, I've developed a fondness for the thing. It just really needs better brakes. Next up James bond's old ride.

    The battle of the union Jack vs. the Rising Sun. :tup:
     
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  12. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    I was wondering who got that almost unbelievable lap time :p
     
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  13. Draggon

    Draggon

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    Thank you, I have my moments, but I'm no @Vic Reign93 or @Lewis_Hamilton_ !

    I'm glad I joined the club, looking forward to trying out that Esprit. :cheers::dunce: I
     
  14. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Well, don't I look like a pleb.
     
  15. Draggon

    Draggon

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    Just wait for the Union Jack.... I've been practicing..... even the magic of the precious can't do much for Bilbo Stiggins with this one :crazy:
     
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  16. Vic Reign93

    Vic Reign93 Premium

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    Well it's nice being held in high regards @Draggon :)

    And let's just say I had to show why he holds me in such high regard alongside Lewis. :lol::D

    But if my times are anything to go by when the tyres are the same, the Lotus has a higher performance ceiling, but it's tricky to hold it there compared to the Silvia.

    But all that aside, I'll take the Esprit as it can also be fun to drive when you want it to without too much convincing. :tup:
     
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  17. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

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    Nice to see all the new faces around here for a change, thanks for participating!

    Finally got around to writing my review. I'm deciding to experiment a bit and make a story about a magazine editor testing both cars as part of an 80's retrospective issue. There's going to be a lot of pictures, so I'll keep some of them down to a thumbnail size. If you want to see them better, you'll have to click on them.


    Ronda_4 copy.jpg

    I pulled up to the Ronda town square after leaving my hotel room. My Alpine A310 serving as my mode of transportation.

    Ronda_5.jpg

    I stepped out of the car, the engine's soft hum ceasing as I proceeded to lock it behind me.

    Ronda_1.jpg

    Two sports cars from the 1980's awaited me, both imported and arranged for a prior photoshoot for the cover of the issue. Since they were here I decided to inspect the cars for a segment of the comparison that I had planned.

    Ronda.jpg Ronda_3.jpg

    The hood vents on the Silvia were a good sign, meaning that this car had been tinkered with for the FIA Group B. It appears to be based on the S110 generation of the Silvia. Front engine, rear wheel drive, over 200hp from a non-turbo engine. This seemed to be shaping up to something good. And speaking of shapes...

    Ronda_2.jpg

    ...Look at those fenders! I made my way 'round the back of the car and it seemed to be more boxes. This car's design has a lot of character. It's rough edges give it a muscular feel that is missing in a lot of modern cars.

    I then proceeded to eye the Lotus Esprit.

    Ronda_2 (2).jpg Ronda_1 (2).jpg

    Surprisingly, I detected no huge vents around the car, it is turbocharged after all, so I would have suspected to see some ports for feeding more compressed air to the forced-induction engine.

    Ronda (2).jpg

    Seems the rear window cover has a spiny look, yet another feature missing in modern road cars, (barring the Huracan) I get a feeling of nostalgia when staring these two down.

    I felt I was done, these blasts from the past needed a place to really shine, and that was the open road. I hopped back into the Alpine, leaving the two behind as I headed back towards my hotel room to prepare for tomorrow.

    Andalusia (2).jpg

    The local police were nice enough to close off a portion of a local highway for me to test both cars. They were lined up at the start of the road waiting for me to test them out.

    Andalusia.jpg

    I got there at about 5:00am, plenty of time to test both cars thoroughly. Since the 240rs was at the front of the line, I decided to start with that, then finish with the Esprit in the evening.

    This is a modified Datsun 200SX, as it's called where I'm from. It's a nice homologation special built during Nissan's Group B days. Now this car is quite a collector's item. It was built between 1983 and 85, so this one is an earlier model. Nothing much different but worth pointing out.

    Andalusia_4.jpg

    I started up the car, and a rally-style engine hummed to life, a nice note from this car's FJ24 powerplant. I floored the gas pedal and got a nice amount of wheelspin. The car has decently fast acceleration, only weighing 970kg.

    Andalusia_3.jpg

    But when I got to the end of the straight, I noticed my car topped out at 200km/h. For a racing style road car, I think that's some pitiful gearing right there. I could probably go faster in a Chevelle. I saw the next corner, and decided this was a good place to test where this car should supposedly shine, the twisty stuff.

    Andalusia_1.jpg

    The car stayed planted and it took the subsequent bump very nicely, like a true rally car.

    Andalusia_2.jpg

    Overall the car is a blast, almost no oversteer and you can guide it to wherever you want it to go on a track.

    The road also happened to open up to the shoreline of a lake.

    Circuito de la Sierra_3.jpg
    Circuito de la Sierra_1.jpg

    I was very pleased with the handling, but this top speed is killing me!

    Circuito de la Sierra.jpg

    I then decided that my only true criticism with this car lies in its top speed, so I headed
    back down to the start to pick up the Esprit.

    Andalusia_7.jpg

    The car has a higher top speed, which really works in it's favor against the 240rs. I think this is a very nice car on the straights, might be slower accelerating, but the top speed gets a pass.

    Circuito de la Sierra_2.jpg

    As I approached a corner, I decided this was a good time to test the car's handling, and...

    Circuito de la Sierra_4.jpg

    Whoa! wasn't expecting that! I figured I might have entered too fast, so I drove towards the next corner. I've been out here for a bit, and it seemed night was approaching, so I flipped on the headlamps.

    Andalusia_8.jpg

    Yikes! this thing is pretty old fashioned, It feels heavy despite only weighing 1100kgs. I then decided to give it one more chance in the next corner.

    Andalusia_9.jpg

    Whoa! I think I may be going off!

    Andalusia_10.jpg

    Yup, I'm in the grass now. It really does take some skill to pilot. Well, no rest for the weak, I need to get back to the camp and prepare to do the 1-lap time attack challenge. It was scheduled for 8:00pm tonight, so still plenty of light to see where I'm going.

    Andalusia_16.jpg

    I arrived at the circuit and noticed an LMP going around the track, the engine releasing a low howl as it downshifted at the end of the straight. We were on after the Courage guys finished an R&D session. The track was right beside the same lake, so it was only a five minute drive in the Esprit from where I was.

    Since I arrived in it I decided to set the first lap with it.

    Andalusia_14.jpg

    I have mostly the same gripes with this car as when I was driving it half an hour ago. It feels way too heavy for what it actually is. Its just super unbalanced in the corners, a far cry from what the Elise and Evora are known so well for.

    Andalusia_15.jpg Andalusia_16.jpg

    Blasting out of the corner into the second-last straight, I finally got the hang of it, somewhat. I stepped off the accelerator and it skidded a bit, then I lined it up for the straight and got a pretty good run. I crossed the line, turned around and headed back to the pits.

    I then got into the 240RS as I sped out of the pits.

    Andalusia_18.jpg

    There's a little bit of slip, but not much at all, nothing I can't handle, unlike the Esprit.

    Andalusia_17.jpg Andalusia_19.jpg

    Finishing out the lap, I didn't have much insight to add. It handled like a balloon in the wind, very light and agile, switches directions very quickly. I then crossed the line, executed a terrible handbrake turn, and brought it back home.

    I stood beside a race exec with a clipboard as he handed me my times.

    Lotus: 1:32.885
    Nissan: 1:30.588
    Gap: +2.297

    So it looks like the Esprit was a bit too much to handle, but there are better versions out there like the Sport 350 for example. I own one, and it handles so much better than the Turbo HC. So I'd give this trim of the Esprit a hard pass, look for a newer version.

    Deciding I had enough information for my article and seeing this as a fitting end, I hopped back into the 240rs to take it for one final drive to go retrieve my Alpine.

    Andalusia_20.jpg

    I'll take this one just the way it is!












     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  18. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    Let's start with the Nissan. The Silvia before the S13, S14, S15, etc. It's a more underrated model since the newer versions completely overshadow it. It's a performer on the track, taking most corners with ease. On the Eiger Short Track, it has a bit of understeer since the track has some tight corners, but makes up for that by having some decent acceleration. Overall it's a good car.

    The Esprit. The powerhouse from Britain that ran until 2002, it is a powerful car on track, when driven right. We have the '87 model for this duel, and I must admit I have a strange affection for this car. Normally I don't go for cars that oversteer, which is what this car does a lot, but there's something about this that makes me like this one. Must be the 214 HP or maybe the looks. As stated before, the car has oversteer, which is what you get for driving a mid engined Lotus. As much as I like the Lotus, my vote this week goes to the Silvia because it is well balanced, predictable, and is seen in open lobbies a good amount.

    Both cars were tested on Eiger Short Track, sports hard tires, no aids except ABS: 1.

    Silvia: 1:15.328
    Esprit: 1:16.195

    And the votes:

    Silvia: 4
    Esprit: 3

    And the winner is.....

    240rs05rear1b.jpg
    The '83 Silvia 240RS!!!

    Congrats to @Vic Reign93 for winning this week's time trial for both cars by getting a 1:12.197 in the Silvia and a 1:11.583 in the Esprit. The next time trial will be out as soon as the next duel is announced tomorrow, so be sure to stop by!​
     
  19. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    This week I chose two cars that come from past and somewhat present. One of these cars is widely known by the general public, while the other is known in a different country. This week's duel is.....

    1004gmhtp-01-o+2000-chevy-camaro-ss+supercharged-chevy-ls6-engine.jpg
    The 2000 Chevrolet Camaro SS

    vs

    1991-1993-tvr-v8s-2404_7213_969X727.jpg
    The 1991 TVR V8S!!!


    Front engine, rear wheel drive paints this week's duel along with two good performing cars, but I'll save that for the review. This week's time trial takes place at one of my tracks created with the Course Maker app, Midland Raceway. This track has a toss up of winding corners and straights that keep you on you're game. So with that, let the battle begin.​
     
  20. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

    Messages:
    1,187
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Two cars I already tested on Trial Mountain - ABS on for the Camaro, off for the TVR. Comfort softs as usual.

    TVR V8S 01:42,070
    Chevrolet Camaro SS '00 01:42,570

    Aside lap times, to me there's no match : the TVR is much more interesting, and is still nicely balanced. The Chevy pays a heavy front which makes it not very responsive, and prompt to understeer under load. Also, its gearbox is too long. So TVR all the way for me.
     
  21. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

    Messages:
    5,213
    Location:
    Canada
    Didn't bother posting stat charts, seems to be quite the one-sided battle whenever the undefeated TVR rolls in to town, after breaking down on the highway while en-route.

    image.jpeg


    Really no point in prolonging this comparison. The TVR V8s vs The Chevrolet Brick everybody.

    I took both cars down to the automotive equivalent to the firing range: Midfield Raceway. The TVR was a dream to drive, just like all the others that came before and after. No complaints except for maybe a slight bump in acceleration, but can be fixed with tuning. The Camaro is a dumpy-ruck dumptruck (thanks autocorrect). It corners like a brick without wheels, which it pretty much is. At 450-ish pp I was hoping for it to be a little more competitive. The only time I ever enjoyed it is when I bought it during the beginners series at the start of the game around Christmas 2013, soon thereafter I purchased an Aventador and never looked back. The TVR also has more interesting paint chips, so it wins there too. Here are the lap times:

    TVR 1:23.623
    Camaro 1:24.356
    Gap: +0:00.733

    As you can see the Camaro only comes close due to its higher horsepower, but on a technical track, the Chevrolet Dumptruck gets dumptrucked by the V8S easily. At least it corners somewhat better than the Veyron.

    Admittedly I got used to the Camaro, and it got better over time. I like the way it looks and sounds too, but not today it seems.

    The Camaro seemed to have a nice, long design. This doesn't help the handling and only makes it worse, but it wasn't bad for the late 90s. I may even dare to say it's a pretty underrated design, seems everyone forgot after Gen 5 hit the dealerships.

    I really enjoy the classic British look of the TVR even more, though. It has the tiny roadster feel that pretty much all TVRs carry (Barring the monster Speed 12), so it seems very derivative, but all-in-all pretty enjoyable.

    So it seems the TVR V8s wins this head-to-head.

    And the verdict is: Burn the Veyron's suspension at the stake.
    Darn Ascari licence test! :banghead:
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  22. Ryk

    Ryk

    Messages:
    3,144
    Location:
    England
    v8scamaro.jpg TVR V8S (1991) vs. Chevrolet Camaro SS (2000)


    ---- The TVR that was a stop gap after the "wedge" Tamsin and it did the job to save TVR for a few more years! And the Camaro which I have to admit I know nothing about except it isn't actually an American car but a Canadian car... even better a French-Canadian built car!

    So a TVR from 1991 and a Chevrolet built in Montreal...
    1991 and Montreal ...
    So I am instantly thinking of the Canadian Grand Prix and Nigel Mansell, miles ahead looking like he had the win in his pocket after leading from pole position, when of course, he started to slow down, on the last lap, and an ever so grateful Nelson Piquet breezed past.

    This is a classic England vs Canada. A rivalry that has spawned such classics as...
    Just what do you put on your pancakes : Maple Syrup or Lemon Juice & Sugar?
    Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve?

    TVR V8S
    5 Paint Chips
    59,400 Kazulas
    3950cc V8
    240bhp/ 37.2 torques (Showroom numbers)
    238bhp/37 torques (Set up screen)
    1050kg 54:46
    FR/NA
    PP448
    4013x1728x1250mm
    4.4 kg/bhp
    Ramp Angles-- 5/20/10
    Wheel nuts = 4​

    The V8 Engine from a workhorse Land Rover, has been tweaked by none other than Andy "Ricky" Rouse, British Touring Car legend.
    This was a step back for TVR - the Wedge shaped cars were not doing well and so TVR went retro before it was cool to go retro. (Nostalgia ain't what it used to be eh?)
    For TVR it was a bit of a bodge job, get something on the road that wasn't an angular wedge! It looks like the old 1970's 3000M TVR and the rear lights remind me of the venerable Mk3 Ford Escort (News just in : they are the rear lights of a Mk3 Ford Escort.)

    Bought mine in Space Blue Pearl.
    ---------

    Chevrolet Camaro SS (2000)
    8 Paint Chips
    22,150 Kazulas
    5665cc V8
    319bhp/35.7Torques (Dealership numbers)
    325bhp/48 Torques (Set up screen)
    1560kg 54:46
    FR/NA
    PP460
    4910x1890x1320mm
    4.8 kg/bhp
    Ramp Angles-- 7/30/15
    Wheel Nuts = 5​

    The Camaro - 4th generation.
    Maybe it grows on you?
    The integrated rear spoiler... almost like a Jaguar XJ220 ... almost.
    Bonnet scoop... The bonnet to me looks a bit fussy.
    Door mirrors remind me of the Ferrari 312... The "Return to power" 3 litre F1 car of 1966-1967.
    Nose - pretty pointy and slippery. Wide set headlamps - but has it got bags under its eyes? The front end has a Sharkish look to it - or maybe a steam iron? But for me, it isn't a great looking car.

    Bought mine in the shade of Monterey Maroon Metallic.

    ---------------------------------
    Battle of the V8's -

    In the Monterey Maroon Metallic (Are you sure the SS was available in this colour in 2000?) corner hailing from the Northern Suburbs of Montreal in Canada-da-da-da,The Chevrolet Camaro SS

    In the Space Blue Pearl Corner hailing from the Northern Suburbs of Blackpool; The sunshine capital of Lancashire (In your face Southport!) The TVR V8S

    ----

    This could be a mis match The Small open top TVR against the powerhouse that is General Motors?
    Don't be so quick to dismiss the TVR, their record suggests they are the favourite, TVR have beaten Honda and Alfa Romeo in previous head to heads - a GM car from the land of Ice Hockey and being polite.


    Camaro SS
    Car felt very soft and wallowy. Engine note had a deep grumble (Nice) which was counterpointed by a high pitched whine (bad). The engine seems to have very pampered power delivery - just not eager at all. Not sure where the blame should lay. The Tall Tall gearbox or the heavy weight it has to heft about..
    ===========
    TVR V8S
    Car is super grippy on the Sport Hard tyres it comes with. It felt lighter than the Camaro the engine wasn't as whiney.

    The matchup looks like the Chevy has a cruising Gearbox that will be fine for long haul trips - the V8S looks much more practical and evenly spread... but I'll have to test them.

    Let's race them at Willow Springs in the Super Licence event

    TVR V8S
    1m30.201 (12m27.598 - 10th place) (52,000cr earned)
    5LF/7RF (After 20 miles the car had 5 points left on the Left Front = LF.)
    6LR/8RR
    30% fuel left

    TVR was way down on power to all the cars - but it did beat... Ferrari California, Ferrari F40, Murcielago LP640, Lexus LFA, Bugatti Veyron '13, Ferrari 599.


    Camaro SS
    1m30.106 (12m37.590 - 12th place) (40,000cr earned)
    1LF/4RF
    3LR/7RR
    5% Fuel left

    The Camaro did a bit of giant killing itself beating up ... Shelby GT500, Ferrari F40, Benz SLS AMG, Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C6) '06

    So after 20 miles the TVR was only half a second a mile faster, not that much really

    The TVR is nice enough drive - very easy to be smooth. The Chevrolet has Understeer but if you don't force the issue on the front tyres it can go a fair old pace. On a fast track like Jack Rabbit Springs, the weight of the Camaro began to hurt it. From a pace on a par with the V8S it tailed off on the final few miles as the front left just could take the long sweepers.

    I am sure both cars would benefit from the most mundane of tweaks - the gearbox of the Camaro could be tightened up. For me the rear of the V8S could be a smidge stiffer just to balance out the understeer.

    190mph Camaro
    167mph V8S

    The Camaro has a lot of things in it's favour - WAY cheaper, has a much thicker top speed. And in the Super licence event the Camaro actually earned its money back in a single race. But the V8S has a better handling balance and a better selection of gears and it doesn't suffer from snacking on its front tyres. The TVR looks better and in my test run was comfortable faster than the Camaro without having to factor in fuel use or tyres.

    TVR V8S wins.



    ---

    Had a go at the time trial location but - the place felt a bit antiseptic and I am pretty sure I goofed up trying to load the track...

    (Edit - Bit rushed typing this, so full of spelling and repetition and hesitation errors - sorry)
    (Edit - Wheel nuts? I've heard tell of a specific failure of the V8S - Wheels flying off at speed when a single wheel nut sheered off and the other three just couldn't take the added strain.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  23. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

    Messages:
    3,410
    Location:
    United States
    Chevrolet Camaro SS '00
    5.7L
    325 hp / 5,000 rpm
    351 ft-lb / 4,000 rpm
    1,560 kg (3,439 lbs)
    460 pp

    TVR V8S '91
    4.0L
    238 hp / 5,500 rpm
    270 ft-lb / 3,000 rpm
    1,050 kg (2,315 lbs)
    448 pp

    Camaro has a big power advantage, making 87 more hp and 81 more ft-lbs of torque from an engine 1.7L bigger than the 4.0L unit powering the TVR V8S. However, with a curb weight 510 kg (1,124 lbs) more than the TVR, the Camaro loses everywhere besides a straight line, and it doesn't have much of an advantage there, either, posting a maximum speed of 137 mph at Mid-Field, or just 3 mph faster than the TVR. Power-to-weight ratio is 0.9 lb/hp better in the TVR than the Chevy.




    To be fair, the Camaro SS in GT6 is not a convertible. If it was, it would weigh at least another 100 lbs and definitely be slower than the TVR here.
     
  24. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    United States
    I managed to make it a fairly close battle between the two. The Camaro is quite heavy and can be understeery in the corners, but it definitely has power on its side. With the TVR, its problem is more along the lines of oversteer, as there are times that it steps out of balance if you push it just a little too hard. (Which, when I'm trying to go for a fast time, it's quite a tightrope to walk)

    Midland Raceway TT:
    Camaro - 2:37.259
    V8S - 2:37.099

    Rotenboden:
    Camaro - 1:51.872
    V8S - 1:51.515

    SSR5:
    Camaro - 1:37.798
    V8S - 1:38.577

    The Camaro's weight kept it balanced on SSR5, whereas my push to beat the Camaro's time in the V8S was marred by the instability present when driving on the limit. I also had trouble getting a clean lap on Rotenboden with the V8S, because the car kept stepping out of line on the elevation changes. That lap time there? That was the very first of the three laps I drove. The other two were catastrophic, stepping ever so slightly out of line, and slamming into the guardrail. The Camaro actually wasn't that understeery on the Rotenboden, which surprised me, but I still had to take it slow in the corners.

    The TVR V8S still proves to be the better car though.
     
  25. Draggon

    Draggon

    Messages:
    2,052
    I forgot all about the Camaro, I'll probably do the TT after Car of The Week today. @ThrasherDBS 's 2:35 might be hard to beat.
     
  26. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    United States
    That time was because I forgot to turn off traction control, and I don't count that as a time. So long as you clear 2:37, you've beaten me.
     
    Draggon likes this.
  27. Draggon

    Draggon

    Messages:
    2,052
    2:33.518 in the Camaro, TC off. I like it more than the TVR, at least on this track. Bested my TVR time by a couple of seconds too. I'm still leaving at least a half second on the plate due to my slow entry into the turns. This is a tough track to memorize!

    Edit: 2:33.9-something in the TVR, I'm relatively pleased with that. It's a better car overall and easier to drive, but I'm a tick faster in the Camaro. Where I've found the Camaro lacking is through medium to fast corners. It pushes so much that corner entry to mid turn isn't much fun. Just my 2 cents
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  28. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

    Messages:
    5,538
    Location:
    United States
    Vic Reign93 likes this.
  29. Draggon

    Draggon

    Messages:
    2,052
    Oh great, now he's going to see your mention and probably get into the '29's!
     
    MrWaflz55, Cowboy and Vic Reign93 like this.
  30. Vic Reign93

    Vic Reign93 Premium

    Messages:
    2,463
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You REALLY need to be careful what you wish for. :D:lol: