GTP Cool Wall: 1965-1966 Shelby GT350

[Bopop4]

This is a less extreme example of the Sino, which is still a Ferrari.

It is a Mustang, anyone who can't see that or refuses to acknowledge that is just trying to nitpick things for the sake of being a nitpick.

Alpine is still a BMW as well, same with Ruf. Although Ruf does distance themselves a bit because of the large differences between the normal cars and the modded ones.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Alpine is still a BMW as well, same with Ruf.

All RUFs are BMWs.

R'amen.

 

[Famine]

It is a Mustang, anyone who can't see that or refuses to acknowledge that is just trying to nitpick things for the sake of being a nitpick.

Go ahead and tell GT350 owners they own a Ford Mustang.

This of course being the point escaping many of you.

Alpine is still a BMW as well, same with Ruf.

Neither of these things are true.

Although Ruf does distance themselves a bit because of the large differences between the normal cars and the modded ones.

Are you confusing Alpina/Ruf aftermarket tuning and parts with the vehicle manufacturing divisions? A standard Ruf RGT is a standard Ruf RGT, not a modified Porsche 911 - and a standard Alpina B10 is a standard Alpina B10, not a modified BMW 540i. Just like a standard Shelby GT350 isn't a modified Ford Mustang.

 

[Adamgp]

Now replace every instance of Ford and Mustang with BMW and 540i, and GT350 with Alpina B10.

And, just as the Alpina B10 is neither BMW nor 540i, the Shelby GT350 is neither Ford nor Mustang.

I trust that the fact that perpetuating this proves the point I originally made isn't lost?

Last I checked it was just the Shelby that this thread was about. Not a BMW.

I'll post again:

Not a Mustang yet the GT350's started life as ~85% complete Mustangs, say "Mustang" on the serial number, has Mustang badges, and was sold through Ford dealerships and came with a Ford warranty.

Yes, they did have a Mustang badge. The fender badge on the regular Mustang was moved to the grill. (The horse with the tri color bar, same as the regular Mustang)

I'll also add that Carroll Shelby worked closely with Lee Iacocca of Ford. Most of the parts Shelby used were either off other Ford cars, or available at the Ford parts counter/catalog.

 

[Famine]

Last I checked it was just the Shelby that this thread was about. Not a BMW.

That'll be 'an analogy' - and quite an apt one. You see, everything you say about the GT350 and the Mustang can be equally applied to the B10 and the 540i. And they're also different, standard cars, where one is not a modified version of the other.

It's nice you're agreeing with me again, but entirely repeating your post was a mote unnecessary.

Yes, they did have a Mustang badge. The fender badge on the regular Mustang was moved to the grill. (The horse with the tri color bar, same as the regular Mustang)

Indeed, by eschewing the Mustang emblem so iconic to the Mustang brand and using a small fender badge (as I already said), Shelby further delineated his product from the Mustang.

I'll also add that Carroll Shelby worked closely with Lee Iacocca of Ford. Most of the parts Shelby used were either off other Ford cars, or available at the Ford parts counter/catalog.

Just as Bovensiepen did with BMW. Indeed their current Alpina B7 was actually codeveloped so closely with BMW that they include Alpina processes on the production line and build the car alongside the BMW 7 Series.

And yet you buy the B7 as a complete, original, standard car - not a modified version of the BMW 7 Series. Just as you would have bought a GT350 as a complete, original, standard car - not a modified version of the Ford Mustang. Analogies are our friends.

 

[Adamgp]

That'll be 'an analogy' - and quite an apt one. You see, everything you say about the GT350 and the Mustang can be equally applied to the B10 and the 540i. And they're also different, standard cars, where one is not a modified version of the other.

You may be right about the BMW/B10, I don't know much about it, and don't pretend to. It is not the topic of the thread either.

I do however, know the history of the GT350.

It's nice you're agreeing with me again, but entirely repeating your post was a mote unnecessary. Indeed, by eschewing the Mustang emblem so iconic to the Mustang brand and using a small fender badge (as I already said), Shelby further delineated his product from the Mustang.
Just as Bovensiepen did with BMW. Indeed their current Alpina B7 was actually codeveloped so closely with BMW that they include Alpina processes on the production line and build the car alongside the BMW 7 Series.

The fender badge is a Mustang emblem, and it was on the GT350, as well as the regular Mustangs, just in a different location.

And yet you buy the B7 as a complete, original, standard car - not a modified version of the BMW 7 Series. Just as you would have bought a GT350 as a complete, original, standard car - not a modified version of the Ford Mustang. Analogies are our friends.

Facts are even better friends. The GT350 is a modified Mustang. Shelby did not design the whole GT350 from the ground up, he took an existing Ford Mustang and modified it, using mostly Ford parts. If you were lucky enough to buy a GT350 brand new in the 1965-66, you bought it from a Ford dealer, as they were sold alongside the regular Mustangs.

 

[Famine]

The fender badge is a Mustang emblem, and it was on the GT350, as well as the regular Mustangs, just in a different location.

You're giving out information I not only already know but have already stated in the thread.

It's a Mustang badge, from the fender of Mustangs Incorporating the Mustang badge, from the grille of Mustangs. The difference visually delineates the cars.

Facts are even better friends. The GT350 is a modified Mustang. Shelby did not design the whole GT350 from the ground up, he took an existing Ford Mustang and modified it, using mostly Ford parts.

And then sold as a standard car with a new brand, name and VIN. Making a new, standard car. Friendly facts.

Also note that Alpina have never designed a car from the ground up.

If you were lucky enough to buy a GT350 brand new in the 1965-66, you bought it from a Ford dealer, as they were sold alongside the regular Mustangs.

Just like Alpinas are sold at BMW dealerships alongside regular BMWs. It's almost like the analogy was selected for how perfectly appropriate it is - you can even find Roundels on an Alpina if you look hard enough...

So it seems we're in perfect agreement now you've reiterated every point I've made. It just remains to be seen if my remark that normal people find such discussions tedious is justified - and the signs so far are good.

 

[Slash]

That was their way of identifying the performance variant over the others. That does not make it its own car.

 

[Adamgp]

You're giving out information I not only already know but have already stated in the thread.

It's a Mustang badge, from the fender of Mustangs Incorporating the Mustang badge, from the grille of Mustangs. The difference visually delineates the cars. And then sold as a standard car with a new brand, name and VIN. Making a new, standard car. Friendly facts.

Exactly, it's the same exact badge, just relocated to the grill.

If it were a whole brand new car, as you say, would the '65 GT350 exist if Ford never created the Mustang?

Or since you keep bringing it up, if BMW weren't around, what would Alpina be making?

Also note that Alpina have never designed a car from the ground up.
Just like Alpinas are sold at BMW dealerships alongside regular BMWs. It's almost like the analogy was selected for how perfectly appropriate it is - you can even find Roundels on an Alpina if you look hard enough...

Exactly, I think you are getting it. Alpina never designed a car of their own, they modified BMW's. Just as Shelby modified Mustangs, they didn't design a car of their own.

 

[Sage Ages]

Is it really a big deal?

 

[Slash]

Is it really a big deal?

Depending on who you talk to, yeah it can be.

Exactly, it's the same exact badge, just relocated to the grill.

If it were a whole brand new car, as you say, would the '65 GT350 exist if Ford never created the Mustang?

Or since you keep bringing it up, if BMW weren't around, what would Alpina be making?



Exactly, I think you are getting it. Alpina never designed a car of their own, they modified BMW's. Just as Shelby modified Mustangs, they didn't design a car of their own.

As I said before, Shelby didn't produce their own shells, engines or almost anything on that car. They threw a few bolt on parts on the engine, put a better suspension under it and called it a GT350. In fact if you pick it apart, almost everything's got some kind of "FoMoCo" stamp on it.

 

[Adamgp]

As I said before, Shelby didn't produce their own shells, engines or almost anything on that car. They threw a few bolt on parts on the engine, put a better suspension under it and called it a GT350. In fact if you pick it apart, almost everything's got some kind of "FoMoCo" stamp on it.

Exactly what I've been trying to explain some on here.

 

[Slash]

Just because it had a reissued VIN (did I mention that it still decodes as a Ford K Code car? Oh, and take noticed that some of the letters between the 2 are the same...hmm wonder why that is) doesn't make it any less of what it started as. Saying it is is moronic.

 

[Roo]

Depending on who you talk to, yeah it can be.

...which would make the GT350 uncool. Which was the point @Famine has been making all along.

I'm willing to bet Famine doesn't give a rat's jacksie whether the GT350 is a Mustang or not. The point - as this is a Cool Wall thread, not a Is-The-GT350-A-Mustang-Discuss thread - is that if someone calls out a GT350 as Mustang, or even just a Mustang, and the GT350 owner then has to explain why it isn't just a Mustang, then it renders the GT350 an uncool car.

On the other hand, if GT350 owner just says 'Uh, yeah, it's a Mustang', knowing that car people (who are all seriously uncool anyway) will know what it is and non-car-people won't care, then the car becomes cool because the owner isn't trying to explain why it's cool. Because explaining why a car is cool makes it uncool.

On balance, that would make the car a meh... which is how Famine voted.

I went with cool, by the way, for the competition history. Not Sub-Zero as it makes you look like a Steve McQueen wannabe. Yes, I know the GT350 and GT390 are not the same thing, but explaining that would be seriously uncool.

Tagging @Adamgp because I think he needs to see this, as I'm not certain he's got Famine's point.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

Any Mustang between the age of its inception and about 1971 is automatically Sub-Zero in my eyes. Don't care about what it is or isn't, don't care about heritage or history, they are just cool cars to look at.

Even 6-cylinders, poseur-ish as they are.

 

[Adamgp]

Tagging @Adamgp because I think he needs to see this, as I'm not certain he's got Famine's point.

I'm not sure he got my point either.

...which would make the GT350 uncool. Which was the point @Famine has been making all along.

I'm willing to bet Famine doesn't give a rat's jacksie whether the GT350 is a Mustang or not. The point - as this is a Cool Wall thread, not a Is-The-GT350-A-Mustang-Discuss thread - is that if someone calls out a GT350 as Mustang, or even just a Mustang, and the GT350 owner then has to explain why it isn't just a Mustang, then it renders the GT350 an uncool car.

On the other hand, if GT350 owner just says 'Uh, yeah, it's a Mustang', knowing that car people (who are all seriously uncool anyway) will know what it is and non-car-people won't care, then the car becomes cool because the owner isn't trying to explain why it's cool. Because explaining why a car is cool makes it uncool.

On balance, that would make the car a meh... which is how Famine voted.

I went with cool, by the way, for the competition history. Not Sub-Zero as it makes you look like a Steve McQueen wannabe. Yes, I know the GT350 and GT390 are not the same thing, but explaining that would be seriously uncool.

That kind of logic would knock a whole heck of a lot of cars from cool/sub zero down to uncool.

 

[Sage Ages]

I'm pretty sure the owner would just go along with it.

 

[Famine]

That was their way of identifying the performance variant over the others. That does not make it its own car.

The fact it was its own car did that.

Just because it had a reissued VIN (did I mention that it still decodes as a Ford K Code car? Oh, and take noticed that some of the letters between the 2 are the same...hmm wonder why that is) doesn't make it any less of what it started as. Saying it is is moronic.

But accurate.

Exactly, it's the same exact badge, just relocated to the grill.

Yep, like I said two pages since.

If it were a whole brand new car, as you say

Pretty sure I said "complete, original, standard".

would the '65 GT350 exist if Ford never created the Mustang?

No idea. The Mustang wouldn't exist if Ford never created the Model T... so that seems like a weird point to make.

Or since you keep bringing it up, if BMW weren't around, what would Alpina be making?

No idea. Since they started as a racing team, they'd probably have built race cars of whatever was available originally. Where that would have lead - who knows?

Exactly, I think you are getting it. Alpina never designed a car of their own, they modified BMW's.

Originally. And now they make their own cars. An Alpina B7 isn't a modified BMW 7 Series, it's a standard Alpina B7.

Just as Shelby modified Mustangs, they didn't design a car of their own.

And yet they sold a standard, unmodified car, new, called the Shelby GT350.

And it's not getting any more interesting.

Actually, the automotive world is full of instances like this - and not just from smaller companies that use predesigned bodies as a basis for their new cars (like Alpina, Shelby, Ruf and Brabus). Toyota have just unveiled a new Aygo that shares more with the Citroen C1 and Peugeot 108 that were unveiled before it than the '66 Shelby GT350 shares with a '66 Ford Mustang - the body looks different (better, in fact), but that's about it. It'd take quite the act of denseness to say the Aygo is a Citroen C1.

Bigger companies aren't averse to a bit of badge engineering - we've just seen the Toyota GT86 and Subaru BR-Z, but what of the Scion FR-S? Is that a modified Toyota GT86 or is it its own car?

Then there's reverse engineering. Lotus did it to Vauxhall/Opel's Carlton/Omega to make the Lotus Carlton/Omega. That complicated matters somewhat by having the same model name, but it's a Lotus badge on the car, a Lotus VIN in the engine bay and a Lotus name on the title. More recently, Aston Martin went the whole hog and bought completed Toyota iQs, dismantled them and rebuilt them to sell for £30k+ - is the Cygnet a Cygnet or a "modified iQ"?

And then there's occasions where a manufacturer literally slaps a new badge on an existing car they had no hand in developing - Mazda did it three times with the 121 (Kia Pride), 121 (Ford Fiesta Mk4) and Tribute (Ford Escape).

The entire motoring world agrees that the '66+ GT350 is not a Ford Mustang, even insurers who like to gouge every cent they can class the Shelby as a complete, standard, original car rather than a modified one. The B10 is an Alpina, not a modified BMW, the Cygnet is an Aston Martin, not a modified Toyota, the Mazda 121 is a Mazda, not a modified Ford (or Kia - fun note, the same Kia was also badge-engineered by Ford for the US market Ford Festiva).

Two pages ago I said why it wasn't a cool car. The intervening two pages proved that point very nicely - and @Roo seems to have grasped it just fine.


*Let's not mention the 1920s-40s, which was basically an era of hundreds of coachbuilders making car bodies for rolling chassis they had no involvement in - the entire industry was comprised of car manufacturers who only made bodies and a handful that made chassis. Only the handful would have been legitimate manufacturers by your rules.

 

[Sage Ages]

 

[Famine]

I'm gonna start calling you all Donny.

Is it really a big deal?

We heard you the first time. Not sure you needed three more posts to cement your antipathy.


Though that's rather the point of why I said the car was meh in the first place.

 

[Roo]

That kind of logic would knock a whole heck of a lot of cars from cool/sub zero down to uncool.

When I vote on the Cool Wall, I very rarely take the opinion of the general public into account, for that very reason. The vast majority of people don't care about cars, so every car is either meh or - if it stands out in some way (noise or looks usually) - uncool.

A GT350, or any (other*) Mustang driven down the high street here would be uncool, except to car guys and small boys, but as both us and small boys are all uncool by default anything we consider cool is also uncool.

So I generally ignore what other people think about a car and go with how I feel about it. There are exceptions, like that 2005 Mustang racing concept thing from a few weeks back which had seriously uncool written all over it, but I usually don't bother because taking in to account the general public's opinion on what is cool and what isn't would make the Cool Wall completely redundant.

*not getting involved...

 

[Slash]

If you think that explaining something about a car makes it cool or not then you have some issues to work out.

 

[daan]

I voted cool as I've always liked Mustangs.

 

[playnthru]

I know more girls interested in Mustangs than boys/men, but whatever.




Hmm bad timing...

 

[Famine]

If you think that explaining something about a car makes it cool or not then you have some issues to work out.

Not really. But we've been over this before - you don't think people turn all glassy-eyed when you bang on about the tiniest details of cars, but the reality is that it bores the tits off normal people. I mean, Christ, I'm a car enthusiast and my job is writing about cars and your posts about cars bore me to tears.

Normal people aren't car enthusiasts. They don't get turned on by the shapes of pistons. They just know what they like the look of and what they don't and as soon as you have to explain to them why a car is cool, you've lost them.

I know more girls interested in Mustangs than boys/men, but whatever.

Heh, true enough. As I said on the Shelby GT500 thread, this is the lady's pony car - or the clueless lottery winner's.

 

[Johnny1996]

Even if a Mustang is considered a girl's car I don't care. Its American muscle for cryin' out loud. I'm gonna love it.

 

[Adamgp]

Yep, like I said two pages since.Pretty sure I said "complete, original, standard".

It wasn't an all original car from Shelby. The GT350 was 90-95%+ Ford.

No idea. The Mustang wouldn't exist if Ford never created the Model T... so that seems like a weird point to make.

If there was never was a Mustang, there wouldn't have been a GT350 made from said Mustang.

No idea. Since they started as a racing team, they'd probably have built race cars of whatever was available originally. Where that would have lead - who knows?Originally. And now they make their own cars. An Alpina B7 isn't a modified BMW 7 Series, it's a standard Alpina B7.And yet they sold a standard, unmodified car, new, called the Shelby GT350.

I guess I'll rephrase that since you missed that one. If there was no BMW, Alpina wouldn't have BMW's to modify and be "making them their own". Point being, there would be no "standard Alpina B7" if BMW didn't make a "standard 7-series" for Alpina to base the B7 off of.

The entire motoring world agrees that the '66+ GT350 is not a Ford Mustang, even insurers who like to gouge every cent they can class the Shelby as a complete, standard, original car rather than a modified one. The B10 is an Alpina, not a modified BMW, the Cygnet is an Aston Martin, not a modified Toyota, the Mazda 121 is a Mazda, not a modified Ford (or Kia - fun note, the same Kia was also badge-engineered by Ford for the US market Ford Festiva)..

"Entire motoring world?" No.

Badge engineered cars like the Cygnet, various Ford/Mazda cars, etc. are quite different than what the GT350 is, or Alpina, etc.

Two pages ago I said why it wasn't a cool car. The intervening two pages proved that point very nicely - and @Roo seems to have grasped it just fine.

Ironically, I find this car to be even more sub zero-er now.

 

[Scaff]

*Let's not mention the 1920s-40s, which was basically an era of hundreds of coachbuilders making car bodies for rolling chassis they had no involvement in - the entire industry was comprised of car manufacturers who only made bodies and a handful that made chassis. Only the handful would have been legitimate manufacturers by your rules.

And would also make the GT40 (a car beloved of Ford fans) a modified Lola, after all the original was based on the Lola GT (Mk6) chassis and used the same Ford powerplant as the Lola GT and all the original development work was carried out at Lola's factory.

The Mk1 Ford GT40 was predominately a Lola GT and arguably without the Lola GT would never have existed, yet its quite clearly and correctly a Ford.

 

[Slash]

Not really. But we've been over this before - you don't think people turn all glassy-eyed when you bang on about the tiniest details of cars, but the reality is that it bores the tits off normal people. I mean, Christ, I'm a car enthusiast and my job is writing about cars and your posts about cars bore me to tears.

Normal people aren't car enthusiasts. They don't get turned on by the shapes of pistons. They just know what they like the look of and what they don't and as soon as you have to explain to them why a car is cool, you've lost them.
Heh, true enough. As I said on the Shelby GT500 thread, this is the lady's pony car - or the clueless lottery winner's.

So then why bother explaining why you think its a cool car if no one cares? Saves you the trouble. Take the nice car compliment and let it go. If someone mentions anything further then feel free to carry on the conversation.

 

[mustang fanatic]

I know more girls interested in Mustangs than boys/men, but whatever.




Hmm bad timing...

Put a girl in the driver's seat of a boss 429, and then see what she says.

 

[White & Nerdy]

This argument is why people say car guys are uncool. Who cares if it's technically not really a Mustang, to the average person it looks like a Mustang and it looks fast. And it is fast.

It really doesn't take much explaining anyway - basically, "it's a Mustang, except better".

So, for those reasons, and because it's a legend, I'm gonna say Sub Zero.