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Discussion in 'GTP Weekly Race Series Online Events' started by WRP001, Dec 15, 2011.
Thanks a lot for making those. You rock!!!
but I really don't understand why these aren't completely over-booked. I wish I knew what the answer was to get more participation but for me at least, I can't wait for the next one
IMHO there are three main reasons. ONE: some people are good or great TTers but lack the race craft to race. And since they don't, and won't try, they never will. (a self fulfilling prophecy)TWO: FEAR....it is VERY intimidating to show up, with the current speed level of our normal players, and not really know what to do and even more intimidating is the the "God don't let me this up" syndrome. THREE: my connection is not good enough to allow me to race online. (we have guys racing from the Antipodes on wi-fi so that excuse needs to be tested). There is a very simple solution, IMHO, Make them race. Make participation in the TT conditional on racing one race per month,quarter, whatever. If you do not race you will be: demoted,banned until you do, whipped with limp spaghetti...whatever. Yes its something else to check and yes I volunteer to help (for the 4 thousandth time). And for number three:Show up and we'll see how bad that wi-fi is and get some help fixing set ups if necessary.
This is a GREAT combo...not to be confused with big car on little track(Corvette racing in a fish bowl ) and this weeks little car on big track (with time to read the paper on the straights)...so why is no one here.....because they won't or they are intimidated. Lets fix it....it was really boring today as I was best of the rest when Quentin fell off ....I actually lost track of where I was because I was daydreaming and I fell into the sand trap at the 18th hole .
Relating to the races; forcing people's hand by implementing conditions that affect participating in the TT is counter-intuitive.
One idea would be to have lobbies running 30 mins apart with one tailoring more to the D1s and the other for D2s and below. Guarantees one lobby has the lack of intimidation should people feel that way.
Another would be to open up the tyre compounds respective to Division: D1s on Hards, D2 Mediums, D3 Softs etc... it occured to me the tyre compounds aren't as vastly different in performance on GTSport as they've been on GT5 and GT6. They are, however, different enough to simulate a race-equivalent to the Hanicapped Results in the TT.
Edit ~ my idea on compound rules:
D1G - D2G: RH
D2S - D3S: RM
D3B - D4B: RS
This means nobody uses RSS.
The main reason why these races aren't over-booked is probably the intimidation factor.
Question is how can we get people to overcome their stage fear?
I know I still think to myself during the formationlap, 'keep it clean, don't run off, don't outbrake in the first turn,...' and all kinds of other things that can go wrong on the first lap which could destroy someone else's race.
Maybe we should set up the practice lobby Tuesday evening again. Doing shorter practice races helps people getting used to racing with others around them and with only a 5 lap practice race the fear of doing something wrong should be much less.
The thing is from my end, I don't always have time to start up my PS4 and host an EU practice lobby Tuesdays....
I would add a FOUR:
The time factor. I just don't have the time to run an over 1h event starting at 2000 GMT (which is 2100 my local time) on a weekday. I have to get up early for work every day + I got other stuff to do at home. Not to mention to start in a race like that I would need some practice to figure out tire wear, fuel usage, strategy etc. which would cost even more time.
On saturday evenings I like to go out, or at least drink a beer or 5 at home, making me not very suitable for racing
I would very much like to join a race with you guys as it sounds like a lot of fun but I just don't have the time to do so.
Most of the racing that I do happens between 1700-1900 GMT.
I must agree. Its late for me too on a weekday. I can make it only every two weeks, maybe less. I would appreciate if we could have an EU race on weekend afternoon GMT.
The first question should be where does the intimidation factor come from?.... my guess would be the pace of the top tier guys, the other being (as you point out) the racecraft amongst who you race and the level confidence people have in their own.
The time factor does play a big part; TTs have the benefit of letting you laps when you have the time to do them.
These WRS races need not be so intensely monitored for their tyre and fuel strats, its not like a scored series in that respect. I turned up to race 5 mins before Quali, no idea of even what tyre or fuel wear levels were in place... ballsed up royally and still came out with a decent finish to the race. Did the same two weeks ago as well.
@Nail @Storm_SP17 @Speedy6543 @Espial
For me there is no doubt that the intimidation thing is a big part and it sounds like we just need to offer a product that might help to overcome that and maybe host races just for the lower divisions as a sort of half race half teach in sort of thing. Let the D2 & D1 guys come in and maybe buddy up with a D3/D4 and it's the combined result of the two man team that counts in the race so no one is left out.
The results isn't actually the key object of the races it's that they are there to teach race craft by example and gets folks comfortable with getting on track and having a go in one of our regular races. I also like the idea of allowing the lower division drivers an easier ride with tyre choice but wonder if that would cancel out the benefit of lines, braking point, turn in tips and examples using the mandated race tyre? Maybe the sessions could be heavier on practice/warm up and less on the actual race because that would give time to pas on tip etc.
We could still have the normal races but maybe once a month do one of these specials or if we had the extra capacity run them once every couple of weeks?
EDIT: One more thought and all of this is just spit balling....If we juggled the timing on the release of the new TT's a little bit the teach in sessions could give the D4/D3 & D2 runners some hands on experience for them on how to tackle the TT, might be an incentive to participate but not sure how well that would go down.
That post gives off the slightest impression that D1 and D2 know how to race and D3 and D4 don't; these WRS division ranks, must I remind, are an indicator of raw pace only. They do NOT attribute themselves to racecraft and skill in a racing situation, nor consistency, nor skill at strategy, nor actual race pace.
It'd be an insult to D3 & D4 guys to assume they can't do racecraft better than a D1 or D2 and that they have to buddy up and learn from them. Therefore I don't really like that as a suggestion...
The reason I brought up Tyre Compounds idea before is to give some degree of handicap, close the gap on pace, hopefully resulting in more close racing and opportunity to learn racecraft in tight packs. There is no 2 second a lap difference anymore between each compound... thankfully in GTS you'd be lucky to see 2 seconds across 3 compound sets.
My earlier post was contradictory as I mentioned not excluding people but then I hinted at an idea that exclude D1s from a particular room.
The more UK friendly room during the early afternoon GMT on a Saturday is a decent shout. Would mean 2 Saturday and 2 Wednesday lobbies...
Double the races?
For me personally, the more races the better. Only and biggest downside is that there has to be enough attendence to host such an amount of races. And that we need enough stewards to host them. Hosting a lobby of 3 to 4 participants isn't any fun. We used to have full lobby's and I would like to try and get that back.
I'll take some time and whip out a poll/suggestion thread in the TT section. This way we can have more peoples reason to why they are not racing online and what it would take for them to try it out. Split lobby's, mix tyres compounds, different hours, ...
Not my intention, sorry.
Don't completely agree because the ranking must also be symptomatic of new guys coming into a new hobby and finding it hard to get good advice. Just saying both views hold merit but maybe we overlook the fact that we have a lot of new faces coming in that are as keen as mustard but don't know how to refine their skill and being thrown into an OLR where a bunch of high performing D1 and D2 guys run is very intimidating. It's also intimidating for D2 runners as well!
The suggestion from @Speedy6543 should help determine what's needed.
Perhaps a view from a "newbie" could be usefull in this.
The whole reason I got GT online is to race online. But, ingame, the expierence i get is not racing, its random arcade like racing. I would love to do some races with you guys, didn't see the announcement. Because I really want to do clean/fair racing olr. With you guys, I know that this is like minded and the basis of all of it.
Intimidated, no, I'm not. Raced go carts 20+ years ago (against Max Verstappen his dad). Its kind of difficult finding everything wich would suite me, even on this forum. There is a uncertainty factor personally though witch is based on the unexpierence with the settings (no asm/tc etc), having no steeringwheel/pedal setup.
Apart from that, I just want to get better, get more feeling with a tune up, driving others cars etc etc. Oh, and offcourse RACE.
If there is anny possibility in hopping in a race(series) then yes please.
I'd read a different post from zolon or argon i think where he talked about a series combining "newbies" with more seasoned drivers, yes please!
Get them in a room / shareplay and coatch them during racing. Sort of a gentlemans cup.
So what do you mean exactly with 'didn't see the announcement'?
Did you find your way to this part of WRS and are willing to join next race?
I know, no apology needed @Argon... I didn't mean to sound so judgmental.
The element in WRS Races of allowing new and experienced drivers to race together is already there for the Saturday and Wednesday events, although its different to the idea of partnering up new and experienced guys.
The point I was getting at was WRS TTs rank people on their one-lap pace, doesn't factor in race-only aspects such as consistency, racecraft and critical thinking.
That said there surely isn't anything stopping us from having volunteers for "consultant" roles. People that know how the mechanics works or how to refine skills, how to prepare for races or how to execute good racecraft. Just names we can put in the OP as people who are willing to accept PMs from members for tips.
@Koutch_Pro do you use a controller by any chance?
I didn't find my way to this part of wrs (forum is quite large), and I would love to join next race(s) or annyother series.
Thinking about it, I did see the crampons not needed, even watched the vid from dutchy. Then made my way into the time trial, not realizing the other side of wrs.
@Storm_SP17* ; Yup, just the standard ds4
Many good ideas and theories on participation (and a few crazy ones as well )
It's ultimately up to us as organizers to figure a lot of this out. But I will provide my perspective as well, since what we do from a TT perspective is the engine that drives these online races.
Remember that our online races were really initially a grassroots effort from 3 guys in Division 3 (3D3) who wanted to organize weekly online race events that used the same combo as our TT's. It was immediately successful, and grew in participation and breadth over time. The basic premise was a successful one, no matter the combo. Those guys were recruited to staff to run WRS Online, and this forum was born.
We're not going to start setting up combos to suit online racing alone. Every race is not going to be a race car at a real world circuit. We use the entire breadth of cars, tracks, and race types available, in an effort to fully utilize the game, help drivers improve their skills, and to create broad appeal.
From my perspective, these are the things that are impacting the participation. Some of these we can influence, some we cannot:
Marketing - I featured the WRS on the front page in weeks 1 and 3 of the TT, and highlighted the online races at the same time. The threads were admittedly less organized at that time, and we'll be giving WRS a lot more front page exposure in the very near future. The 15th anniversary of WRS is coming up later this month, and we have a very special TT along with an exciting online special event in the works. This, in and of itself, should increase our participation in a big way. In the meantime, I will begin cross posting the Online event thread with a redirect in the TT forum for awareness each week. And all of you can help market by encouraging your fellow participants to join us.
Increase the size of our TT pool - You guys might not be picking up on this, but our TT pool is smaller than it was, even at the start of GT6. The first few weeks had about 60% of GT6 participation levels, but we (and the game platform) have done a better job of hanging onto participation, and we are currently 80% of GT6. Our registry pool of drivers is about half the size that GT6 was initially. Keep in mind, TT's began sooner than they did on either GT5 or GT6, and we had no qualifier. So people are not yet bored of what the game has to offer. More theories around that in point 5 below.
Make races approachable for new participants - We used to have a "Rookie School" at times on GT5 and GT6, in which we opened up the WW race lobby up to 2 hours prior to the beginning of the actual race. And we would have new drivers pair up with experienced drivers, who would coach them in on online racing. We can do that again, but we need some interested folks to step up. This does not even have to be formally organized, remember that. Even if you guys want to make a thread in here to say "I am going to do this, at this time, on this day", whether that's Saturday before the TT, or not - Do it. You don't have to wait for us to help build the participant pool.
Race Times - The times are built to suit the organizers. We've done surveys in the past to ask membership what they prefer. We've added the WW event (there were originally ONLY Wednesday races). We at one point even had a third Wednesday TT for the Asia/Pacific (Aussie) time zone(s). Again, if people are interested in specific times, and in potentially organizing for those times, speak up. We're not going to run you off. Remember, this began as a grass roots series that was user organized.
Sport Mode and the Game Platform - This last one is my theory on part of the impact to #2. I believe with the new game, people have more things to focus on. They want to level up their driver rating, do some credit gathering for cars, and Sport Mode/PD Organized events are the way to do that. It's likely giving many people enough to do. And secondary theory is that maybe Sport Mode is scaring people out of online racing entirely. Have you guys been in those lobbies?
In any case, there's no silver bullet here. We'll focus on points 1 and 2. The members can potentially help with 3 and 4. And there's nothing we can do about point 5.
If you guys have suggestions on 1 and 2, we'll listen. If you have ideas on 3 and 4, feel free to execute.
We'll allow point 5 to take care of itself.
@EDK , thank you for that background info, I fully understand and do agree on that.
Maybe a thought on point 2, Perhaps pull off some marketing tactics into gt online. Like more sharing each other gtplanet wrs liveries/race replay's etc. That doesn't cost a lot of extra time, its just anoying to do with a ds4. That is why I make my race shots etc and share them. When players are looking for a more organized form of racing, every bit of "indoctrination" helps.
I would suggest shifting the EU race to Saturday or Sunday between 12:00 and 16:00 GMT.
You do realize that's 5-9 am in my time zone, right? I get up at 5:30 on the weekdays, but most of us like to get a little extra sleep on Saturday.
We could potentially have a second race on Saturday, but the point of WW is making it a workable time zone for most of the world.
Not trying to gun you down, just thinking about the fact that we have guys in Pacific time (which would make that 4-8 am start time) and it basically becomes a Saturday EU race with what you are suggesting.
EDIT: I recommend if you think that would work, creating an interest check thread with a poll in here, to see if there might be other times folks are interested in for Saturday. The drawback could be a diluted pool, and small grids for both.
just a thought about "marketing". How many of us old time WRSers have even messed around with the PS "Community". Things like "Clean Racing Here" with info leading to WRS...etc may draw in some other like minded drivers. I found the community through contact with an "old head" @MasterGT which lead to a series on Monday nights which is accessed through the Community.
Also can (should) a moderator cut and paste and drop this thought stream onto the TT thread where it will, I am sure, produce some interest.
Sure glad I kicked the hornet's nest....glad to see someone else has ideas to make this better. I especially like the idea of more races on Weekends where all can play and the idea of having "practice nights" (which snail has been doing for years, but theirs has degenerated to a free for all rather than instructive fun racing and transfer of ideas) along the lines of our Beer Night, on Fridays (which needs to be publicized). Its all about the flow of information. Along those lines it would be quite interesting to see what would result from a TT convo or thread dedicated to drawing TTers into the race community, and the routine positing of race thread creations in the TT areas. to all.
great minds think a like . Just mentioned the idea again in a secret place .
Here is some feedback from a newbie also. As you all know I love being a part of the WRS, and share everytime someone ask, even all my liveries have it planted on them. What I love about the TT's is they are at my pace. If I have 20 minutes or an hour I can turn some laps. It is hard for me to find the time to commit to the full race. I did participate one time, but was so off pace and ended up not racing anyone and was lapped by 4 of the 6 cars. Throw in the fact I don't have a mic it was just me out for Sunday drive, or this case Wednesday night drive.
I think having some practice lobbies during the week may help increase those numbers. Informal place to meet some guys from here, learn and have fun.
and @EDK I have gone to the sport mode, if your a middle pack guy like me it is the most unfun thing to do, it is nothing like it was like in the demo. I am glad I found the WRS or this game would be sitting next to my copy of No Man's Sky
speaking of 3 and four hour stints reminded me of a suggestion I had.....current race length is between sprint and a true endurance stint...about an hour. As a result after three or four laps everyone is strung out hoping their strategy is the right one, and that they can be error free at the fastest pace possible. Occasionally like speed guys will actually "race" as they are co speed and on the same strategy but usually the race becomes a TT because as time goes by the field becomes so spread out that there is no one in sight. At this point the Race becomes a non race in that there is no one to race against except the split times. I suggest that we alternate the hour longish races with 20 to 30 minute races ( what most amateur racing organizations in the US use) with max tire and fuel wear (or double the one hour settings? ) which will compact the field into more meaningful "races", which while run under the same conditions as the longer races, will be even more intense and fun with larger grids in the future (and possibly the introduction (on a trial basis) of tires assigned by TT division ?) . These are not Sprints like the UK am races which when I did them a Century ago were about 15 min which IMHO are too short. The shorter races are races which are short enough to keep people in sight and still allow the fastest to assert their God Given Talent and give the chaser incentive to stay in the Race Mode vs the TT Mode. Its all about Curb appeal. More races means more fun, as and long as the tire wear and fuel # are adjusted to approximate the longer distance. It's sorta like a long version of the Room C races w/o the idiots.
I was just throwing in a number and wanted to see the result.
What about doing the Wednesday EU race 1 or 2 hours earlier? Would that work for you?
Let's move this general discussion into the general discussion thread before the weekly online thread gets move into archive.
Move EU 1 or 2 hours earlier. Moving timings will always benefit one and be disadvantageous for another. Take @Fastas for example, waiting for his kid (s) to get to bed first.
@Espial was in on the discussion aswell. Sorry to have overlooked you.
I still like your idea of polling the community to get a feel for what they think. It may be that we find it's something really simple to fix and we may just be over thinking this.
I second that.
Likely we can put up a few polls on race times to assure we are catering to the masses, provided some of the organizers have flexibility.
I copied a bunch of the week 9 thread posts here to the general discussion, as there was a lot in there regarding overall event participation, and I did not want to squash that conversation when we archive the thread.