HKS CT230R Tuner or Racer?

[freedomweasel]

Just because you define something differently doesn't make it so.

edit: -v "Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective" or -n "a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing."

Is there a reason it can't be a race car built by a tuning company?

 

[doctorrg]

I think the reason people are confused is because of the false dichotomy.

A "tuner car" is not a "tuner car" and nothing else. It can also be a "sports car", a "race car" or a "track car."

A "race car" is not a "race car" and nothing else. It can also be a "rally car", a "street-legal car" or even a "production car".

Well, if a "production car" can equally be a "race car", in your understanding of the term "race car", then there really aren't any issues. I don't disagree with the HKS CT230R being a race car as long as any "production car" can be a race car. Apparently, the definition of "race car" is loose enough in order for it to be a race car. There's nothing to argue here. That doesn't mean, however, that I'd have to agree to that definition. I simply agree with you, based on your definition.

 

[McLaren]

My stance is that if you do consider a time attack to be a race, then the car in question is a race car. But, my stance equally is that a time attack is not a race given my understanding of race with reference to race cars.

And I've made two points here. Firstly, just because something can be considered a "form of racing", that doesn't make it a race in reference to race in race car. And yes, I am referring to a formal understanding of what a race is here, i.e. the type of race events you purpose built race cars for.

I'm done. You seem to be coming up with your own silly ideas & logic, whilst twisting our words around.
By such awful logic, people who consider street racing to be an illegal race between 2 cars, must consider the cars to be race cars themselves. Please....

niky put it best in regards to your belief that a form of auto racing can only consist of actual race cars. The rest us know that isn't the case.

 

[andrez004]

In GT5 it's horrible!

In real life it hits the track like a F5 tornado!
If you know anything about this car... It's a race car. But PD doesn't seem to think so.

 

[doctorrg]

I'm done. You seem to be coming up with your own silly ideas & logic, whilst twisting our words around.

Umm, where exactly am I twisting your words around?

By such awful logic, people who consider street racing to be an illegal race between 2 cars, must consider the cars to be race cars themselves. Please....

And just what on earth are you talking about?

I was agreeing that using the loose definition of "race car" you all seem to be using here, the HKS CT230R is a race car, irrespective of me not sharing in that definition. Now, please tell me where that is awful logic?

Or do you believe I'm using awful logic because I do not agree that a "time attack" is a race?

niky put it best in regards to your belief that a form of auto racing can only consist of actual race cars. The rest us know that isn't the case.

Huh? My belief? And where on earth would you have gotten that from?

 

[freedomweasel]

Or do you believe I'm using awful logic because I do not agree that a "time attack" is a race?

How is a time attack not a race?

 

[Yev]

In GT5 it's horrible!

In real life it hits the track like a F5 tornado!
If you know anything about this car... It's a race car. But PD doesn't seem to think so.

I have to agree...it understeers so much, it made me cry.

 

[Villain]

I'm done. You seem to be coming up with your own silly ideas & logic, whilst twisting our words around.
By such awful logic, people who consider street racing to be an illegal race between 2 cars, must consider the cars to be race cars themselves. Please....

niky put it best in regards to your belief that a form of auto racing can only consist of actual race cars. The rest us know that isn't the case.

👍 Have to agree with McLaren. Pedantic responses and word-twisting get us nowhere.

 

[niky]

Or do you believe I'm using awful logic because I do not agree that a "time attack" is a race?

----

Huh? My belief? And where on earth would you have gotten that from?

Right where you say a time attack is not a race, and a rally car is not a race car. Because rallies and time attacks most definitely are races.

They're poo-pooh'd by some of the wheel-to-wheel enthusiasts, but like I pointed out (exhaustively) above, wheel-to-wheel racing isn't the only form of motor-racing there is.

 

[Yev]

This is some debate.

 

[Zenith]

To be pedantic again, what you should have said is that you've re-defined what a "race car" is very thoroughly throughout this thread, and based on that definition the HKS CT230R is a race car. Yes, with that even I agree.

Mmmm.... no? We've stuck to the same definition, but have had to explain the implications of every obscure and irrelevant "counterpoint" the tuner crowd has brought up.

This whole idea of "It's my opinion," or "my belief" is ridiculous. I could say that 2+2=5 and say that it's my "opinion", but there's a very clear line between opinion and fact.

 

[niky]

Or do you believe I'm using awful logic because I do not agree that a "time attack" is a race?

----

Huh? My belief? And where on earth would you have gotten that from?

Right where you say a time attack is not a race, and a rally car is not a race car. Because rallies and time attacks most definitely are races.

They're poo-pooh'd by some of the wheel-to-wheel enthusiasts, but like I pointed out (exhaustively) above, wheel-to-wheel racing isn't the only form of motor-racing there is.

 

[doctorrg]

How is a time attack not a race?

Well, if, for example, you define a "race" as an official event in which cars built for said event compete against each other, and there'll be final rankings at the end of said event, then a once off time attack trying to break a lap record doesn't classify as a "race". Official time attack series may well classify, but a once of try at a certain lap record would not.

And no, nobody should be expected to adhere to such definition, but that doesn't mean that if one does adhere to such definition s/he'd be wrong, or does it?

 

[freedomweasel]

And no, nobody should be expected to adhere to such definition, but that doesn't mean that if one does adhere to such definition s/he'd be wrong, or does it?

Definitions exist for a reason, that reason is to avoid "debates" like this. I can say that I "define" the sky as purple until the end of time, but that doesn't make my definition correct, valid, useful or mildly interesting; it makes me wrong.

 

[niky]

Well, if, for example, you define a "race" as an official event in which cars built for said event compete against each other, and there'll be final rankings at the end of said event, then a once off time attack trying to break a lap record doesn't classify as a "race". Official time attack series may well classify, but a once of try at a certain lap record would not.

And no, nobody should be expected to adhere to such definition, but that doesn't mean that if one does adhere to such definition s/he'd be wrong, or does it?

The Redline Time Attack Events are a series, not a one-off.

http://www.redlinetrackevents.com/

Redline Track Events is sanctioning the running of 3 unique, action filled racing series’ at all 10 Rounds in 2011. Each series, Pro Track Challenge, Pro Time Attack, and MotoIQ Pacific Tuner Car Championship is contested independently of the others, with drivers vying for Season Championships. Click the logos above to find out more about each series and start following your favorite drivers now!

*Do note, the Redline series is not the only time attack series or event. There are other such races, like the "Race to the Sky" in New Zealand and the annual Pikes Peak event. And there's the whole time attack movement in Japan, where it all started.

And it's not a race if the car wasn't built specifically for that particular race? I suppose the Pikes Peak Escudo isn't a race car when it's running in New Zealand, then? Or the Audi R10s and R15s are not race cars when running at ALMS, since they were built specifically for the actual LeMans race?

A time attack car is built to conform to the rules of the sanctioning body, specifically for time attack events. And since time attack events are races, a time attack car, like a rally car, is a race car, end of story.

The only conceivable motorsport series that you can't call a race is a drift event, as cars are not competing for fastest time in those events.

 

[doctorrg]

Right where you say a time attack is not a race, and a rally car is not a race car. Because rallies and time attacks most definitely are races.

I was referring to my alleged belief that a form of auto racing can only consist of actual race cars. I do not hold such belief. And I don't see how you can get from me not agreeing that a time attack is a race to me having the believe that a form of auto racing can only consist of actual race cars. That's what I was responding to. You've missed that in your quote.

I really don't see why everyone must consider a time attack to be a race, and why people who do not must have it wrong.

 

[Zenith]

I really don't see why everyone must consider a time attack to be a race, and why people who do not must have it wrong.

Because by definition (you know, those things that all words abide by) it is a RACE. Anyone who says that a Time Attack (defined as a race) is not a race is wrong.

 

[freedomweasel]

I really don't see why everyone must consider a time attack to be a race, and why people who do not must have it wrong.

Because it is, and because they are.

I'll say it again, simply saying something is, doesn't make it so. You can't just claim a time attack is not a race and be right. The definitions exist already. It doesn't matter what you think about it. You can continue going on through life thinking it's not a race, and it won't really matter at all, but you will in fact be wrong.

This is not an opinion question, 1+1 always makes 2, no matter how much you think it's actually 98.

"I really don't see why everyone must consider the sky to be a blue, and why people who do not must have it wrong."

 

[doctorrg]

The Redline Time Attack Events are a series, not a one-off.

http://www.redlinetrackevents.com/

Same for the Super Lap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Lap

I know some people do not consider this racing, but I would. It is arguable, however, depending on what you consider a race.

But I'm not talking about any time attack series here, I'm talking about the HKS CT230R.

And it's not a race if the car wasn't built specifically for that particular race?

I never said that.

I suppose the Pikes Peak Escudo isn't a race car when it's running in New Zealand, then? Or the Audi R10s and R15s are not race cars when running at ALMS, since they were built specifically for the actual LeMans race?

So, they were built specifically for a race?

You have no argument from me here.

A time attack car is built to conform to the rules of the sanctioning body, specifically for time attack events. And since time attack events are races, a time attack car, like a rally car, is a race car, end of story.

I'm not talking about cars built for the time attack series, I'm talking about the HKS CT230R.

The only conceivable motorsport series that you can't call a race is a drift event, as cars are not competing for fastest time in those events.

We're still talking about the HKS CT230R here, or? Not about cars built for time attack series? I said I don't agree that a time attack is a race, I never stated anything with respect to official time attack series.

 

[doctorrg]

Because by definition (you know, those things that all words abide by) it is a RACE. Anyone who says that a Time Attack (defined as a race) is not a race is wrong.

Because it is, and because they are.

Ok. Could any of you please give me a link to where is states that a time attack (not a series, just an attempt to break a particular lap record), is classified as a race event?

 

[freedomweasel]

Ok. Could any of you please give me a link to where is states that a time attack (not a series, just an attempt to break a particular lap record), is classified as a race event?

I did, from the dictionary:

edit: -v "Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective" or -n "a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing."

Tell me how it does not fit.

Side note, most of your responses seem to consist largely of "I never said that", "I'm not saying that" or "no argument from me". What exactly, are you saying? ie Do you have a point or are you just bored and arguing the meaning of words?

 

[Villain]

I was saying a whole lot without really saying anything at all.

/Fixed.

 

[doctorrg]

I did, from the dictionary:



Tell me how it does not fit.

Since when is the dictionary an authority as to what can be considered an official race event and what not?

Side note, most of your responses seem to consist largely of "I never said that", "I'm not saying that" or "no argument from me". What exactly, are you saying? ie Do you have a point or are you just bored and arguing the meaning of words?

If people wouldn't put so many words in my mouth, I wouldn't need to keep clarifying anything or would I now? Are you now blaming me for this? Why not read what I'm actually saying and respond accordingly? Wouldn't that be much easier?

What I've said, and it's the same thing I've said all along, is that a time attack doesn't fall under my definition of what a race is. Are you telling me that this really wasn't clear?

 

[stanong11]

Actually, Niky's post makes the most sense.

I think the reason people are confused is because of the false dichotomy.

A "tuner car" is not a "tuner car" and nothing else. It can also be a "sports car", a "race car" or a "track car."

A "race car" is not a "race car" and nothing else. It can also be a "rally car", a "street-legal car" or even a "production car".

Maybe it was even wrong in the first place to separate them as Tuners vs Racing Cars.
Maybe it should be asked if HKS is a street car or race car which makes more sense.
Maybe room settings should be descibe allowing only Tuners, Street Cars vs Tuners Race Cars.

There are posts that states, it is both a tuner and a racing, which fits in.

My feel is as follows:
HKS CT230R is a Tuner Car, Race Car.
Amuse S2000 GT1 is a Tuner Car, Street Car
WRC2001 is a Rally Car, Race Car
MP4-26 is a F1 Car, Race Car
GTR V-spec is a production car, street car.
X2010 is a Fictional Car, Race Car (okay, this one is to lighten the mood).

 

[doctorrg]

/Fixed.

Well, I didn't have much to say. I just wished people wouldn't have responded to me claiming I said all kinds of things I really didn't. Naturally, I need to clarify. But why are you blaming me for this? You cannot tell me that what I've said was really that hard to understand, or was it now?

 

[Villain]

You forgot one: Schwimmwagen is an Old car, Nazi car.



I kid, I kid.... except it kinda is...

ON-TOPIC EDIT:

Well, I didn't have much to say. I just wished people wouldn't have responded to me claiming I said all kinds of things I really didn't. Naturally, I need to clarify. But why are you blaming me for this? You cannot tell me that what I've said was really that hard to understand, or was it now?

No, we understand you. We just think that you're wrong. You seem to think that it can't be that you're wrong and we're all just confused at what you're really trying to say. So, here's your chance. Put out your points in a bullet-point fashion.

• Tell us
• Excactly
• What you
• Are trying to say.

 

[freedomweasel]

Since when is the dictionary an authority as to what can be considered an official race event and what not?
...
What I've said, and it's the same thing I've said all along, is that a time attack doesn't fall under my definition of what a race is.

What's wrong with the definition I provided?

What do you call a Time Attack?

A time attack is just a fancy name for time trial, and as much as I hate to use wikipedia as a "source":

"In many racing sports an athlete (or occasionally a team of athletes) will compete in a time trial against the clock to secure the fastest time. In cycling, for example, a time trial (TT) can be a single track cycling event, or an individual or team time trial on the road, and either or both of the latter may form components of multi-day stage races. In contrast to other types of races, athletes race alone since they are sent out in intervals (interval starts), as opposed to a mass start." Emphasis added.

I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly. There isn't going to be any "official source" somewhere that says: Time Attack - noun - a type of race

 

[stanong11]

I kid, I kid.... except it kinda is...

??? Seriously, I don't get what it mean?

 

[stanong11]

What's wrong with the definition I provided?

What do you call a Time Attack?

A time attack is just a fancy name for time trial, and as much as I hate to use wikipedia as a "source":

"In many racing sports an athlete (or occasionally a team of athletes) will compete in a time trial against the clock to secure the fastest time. In cycling, for example, a time trial (TT) can be a single track cycling event, or an individual or team time trial on the road, and either or both of the latter may form components of multi-day stage races. In contrast to other types of races, athletes race alone since they are sent out in intervals (interval starts), as opposed to a mass start." Emphasis added.

I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly. There isn't going to be any "official source" somewhere that says: Time Attack - noun - a type of race

Sorry to interrupt, but my opinion is, Time Attack is a race.
Official timings are recorded. And internationally recognised.
Here's an official reference
http://superlapbattle.com/blog/

 

[freedomweasel]

Sorry to interrupt, but my opinion is, Time Attack is a race.
Official timings are recorded. And internationally recognised.
Here's an official reference
http://superlapbattle.com/blog/

Exactly, I'm not really sure where the confusion is.