How did Gran Turismo Sport make GT franchise no longer a laughing stock?

[Groundfish]

Define "trend". It sounds like you're seeing what you want to see. Even more pertinent: define "laughing stock".

I've played GT since the first game. I played the first FM briefly on my university roommate's Xbox, but swore it off as a died-in-the-wool PlayStation fan — hey, we're all young and naive once.

FM4's pre-release hype capitalized on what I considered the weak areas of GT5 back in 2011. I picked up an X360 and have since stuck with both franchises. They both do some things better and worse than each other, and in terms of physics are actually far more alike than to something like AC (or real life for that matter).

This all just reads as an unsubtle way to stoke the us-versus-them attitude that is problematic in sim racing. I can't imagine someone who genuinely enjoys cars would limit themselves to a single title. That's missing out on so much of what the genre offers, and I'm not even talking about just GT and FM, but all the other great titles out there right now. This is probably the best generation to be a racing game fan.

I agree. What’s weird is being a middle aged guy who got back into gaming because of the quality available now in racing titles.
I got every one on console that interested me, and all have their perks. I don’t get this constant barrage of people espousing one game over others, although Gt Sport is my favorite I love Dirt rally 1 and 2 and ac also.
For someone like me who has not done sim race prior to Gt Sport, it’s plenty challenging and I have played what 23 or 24 days in it.
Dirt rally as soon as I played was fricken awesome. Ac has excellent ai which is fantastic for single player. Even pc2 is cool in its own way.
I think for anyone who enjoys motorsport and gaming there has never been a better time to game.
It does seem like the sim community as a whole online loves arguing about physics and tire models way too much.
For me it’s is the game fun. They are all fun in their own way.
It’s a great time to game imo.

 

[GTV0819]

While GT is far from being a perfect game, it's also far from being a laughing stock, too. Wanna know what a laughing stock game really is? This game is one of those.

 

[Hoopzah]

The only laughing stock I'm aware of is a subject title like that trying to get people riled up. Didn't get the car you wanted in the update or something?

 

[Scaff]

In what universe? You seem biased.

GTS pros:

Best car and track models
Transparent physics
Deep online lobbies
Free DLC cars and tracks
Adjustable interior cameras
VR compatible
DS4 motion control support
Mature creative direction

GTS cons:

Outdated design choices
Nonexistent AI
Economy promotes micro-transactions
Stiff chase camera
Lack of singleplayer fun and features
No community challenges
Leaderboards are almost nonexistent

FM7 pros:

Large amount of content
Rotatable chase camera
Weekly and monthly community challenges
Free Play mode
Interactive cars in main menu
More leaderboards
Rain although not dynamic

FM7 cons:

Favors modifications over stock setups
Shallow career mode
Quirky physics
Dumb AI
Majority of new content has been paid DLC
Online lobbies lack depth
Very inconsistent quality control
Fixed interior cameras, which by default are way off in most cars
Immature creative direction

Both FM and GT have iffy physics, they may be wrong in different areas, but the are still roughly equally wrong.

 

[Nielsen]

Both FM and GT have iffy physics, they may be wrong in different areas, but the are still roughly equally wrong.

I didn't say GTS has flawless physics, but to me it's more transparent than FM7.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

To say GT Sport is a 'laughing stock', would be to say it's a 'joke'. I believe it's far from it. You have to far on the negative side of the scale to believe that.

 

[RACECAR]

I agree. What’s weird is being a middle aged guy who got back into gaming because of the quality available now in racing titles.
I got every one on console that interested me, and all have their perks. I don’t get this constant barrage of people espousing one game over others, although Gt Sport is my favorite I love Dirt rally 1 and 2 and ac also.
For someone like me who has not done sim race prior to Gt Sport, it’s plenty challenging and I have played what 23 or 24 days in it.
Dirt rally as soon as I played was fricken awesome. Ac has excellent ai which is fantastic for single player. Even pc2 is cool in its own way.
I think for anyone who enjoys motorsport and gaming there has never been a better time to game.
It does seem like the sim community as a whole online loves arguing about physics and tire models way too much.
For me it’s is the game fun. They are all fun in their own way.
It’s a great time to game imo.

I honestly feel that right there is the main problem: Most people have gotten so consumed with that so much, they've completely forgotten the fun part. There's some people that haven't, but they tend to be swept under the rug of all the bickering.

 

[Scaff]

I didn't say GTS has flawless physics, but to me it's more transparent than FM7.

The flaws are transparent in both titles, yet you chose to list physics as a negative under one of them only, yet by any reasonable assesment, both have clear issues with the physics model.

 

[Nielsen]

The flaws are transparent in both titles, yet you chose to list physics as a negative under one of them only, yet by any reasonable assesment, both have clear issues with the physics model.

I chose to do that because FM7 physics feel like they have to be tamed. This is not the case in GTS, although it does have room for improvement when compared to something like AC. So in other words, GTS feels more intuitive to drive without practice than FM7 physics do.

Let me put it like this. I can take a long break break from GTS and immediately relate to to the physics when returning to it. Coming back to FM7 after a similar break always resets my learning curve somewhat, meaning it takes several laps before I feel comfortable again. Physics first and foremost have to be intuitive. This is why GTS physics are listed as a positive whereas FM7 physics aren't despite none of the two being stellar physics-wise.

 

[o000o]

To say GT Sport is a 'laughing stock', would be to say it's a 'joke'. I believe it's far from it. You have to far on the negative side of the scale to believe that.

Not GT Sport, but GT was regarded as laughing stock in PS3 era but GT Sport can make GT no longer laughing stock despite the flaws I mentioned in first post.

 

[mynameis66]

Not GT Sport, but GT was regarded as laughing stock in PS3 era but GT Sport can make GT no longer laughing stock despite the flaws I mentioned in first post.

Was it a laughing stock in the ps3 era?

 

[ShiftingGears]

Biggest improvements in the game are sounds, livery editor, HUD, having at least two categories that had more than 5 cars at parity and culling assets that were not up to standard for PS4.

 

[azrilnazli]

I assume PD sent their engineers to study iRacing matchmaking system and japanese have their own forum and private league over there ( gt3 or mx5 ) and they very active in VLN.

So probably 2-3 are from PD to learn and study the system.

So the similarities
- match making only works if enough people signing up
- race by series ( in gts race a b and c )
- driver ranked by Driver Ranking
- driver strength = assigned car number

Well almost the same but there are differences
- iracing sort people by division at the end of each season ( 12 weeks )
- there are 10 divisions, #1 is most prestigous
- in iracing Pro license is similar to imoossible for normal people to achieve, and in gts, S rank is equal to Pro

 

[MXH]

Was it a laughing stock in the ps3 era?

What's not to laugh about standard cars, blacked out cockpit view & the infamous vacuum cleaner sounds?

Things have certainly changed for the better but damn, some people do forget fast.

 

[WaikeCU]

I don't think so.

For me it's not a laughing stock simply because of its franchise history. Back in the early days of the brand Playstation, GT1 was the ultimate drivers game on the console. Back then it had competition with Ridge Racer imo, but Ridge Racer felt rather arcady. GT1 was the ultimate go-to game, because it had the 'back then' realistic graphics and the cars were real cars that existed on the road. You could say it's a laughing stock because it didn't have the car list that featured 200 cars with more than 20 versions of Honda Civics, but the cars now are more refined and detailed. It just shows you that 'Quality over Quantity' has a true meaning. Graphics for me was never a problem with PD. I knew they always bring great visuals to their games.

To me GT franchise keeps being the game changer. Now with the FIA backing, more and more real drivers that are active on GTS and vice versa, it also means that being successful on GT(S) could open doors to new opportunities.

It's anything but a laughing stock. It's a real business nowadays imo.

 

[Highlandor]

GT maybe have been a laughing stock to those who were never fans of it in the first place, but that's fairly natural response, especially for the interweb.

For the people who were fans or players of GT but now aren't (including GT5, GT6 & GTS), the game isn't a laughing stock, more of a banging your head against the wall and tearing your hair out nightmare.

The mass exodus of long term fans, including entire race series or dedicated GT websites, during GT5 and GT6, shows that there was something, or multiple things, very wrong in the game.

IMO if it weren't for GT Academy, the current FIA partnership and a true competitor, I think GT would be pretty much dead i.e. it wouldn't sell enough to be profitable.

I don't find anything funny about what has happened to GT, if anything I feel the opposite i.e. quite sad that something that was so good and so much fun is now the opposite.

 

[Scaff]

I chose to do that because FM7 physics feel like they have to be tamed. This is not the case in GTS, although it does have room for improvement when compared to something like AC. So in other words, GTS feels more intuitive to drive without practice than FM7 physics do.

Let me put it like this. I can take a long break break from GTS and immediately relate to to the physics when returning to it. Coming back to FM7 after a similar break always resets my learning curve somewhat, meaning it takes several laps before I feel comfortable again. Physics first and foremost have to be intuitive. This is why GTS physics are listed as a positive whereas FM7 physics aren't despite none of the two being stellar physics-wise.

In that regard, we don't agree. Coming from either reality or even AC or PC2 I don't find GTS to be intuitive at all.

A good number of areas of its physics engine are utterly counter-intuitive in regard to reality, particularly with regard to its tyre and damper model, not to mention the FFB issues it has when it comes to oversteer.

 

[PzR Slim]

This all just reads as an unsubtle way to stoke the us-versus-them attitude that is problematic in sim racing. I can't imagine someone who genuinely enjoys cars would limit themselves to a single title. That's missing out on so much of what the genre offers, and I'm not even talking about just GT and FM, but all the other great titles out there right now. This is probably the best generation to be a racing game fan.

Here ends the gospel according to St Slip. If more people had this attitude the racing game space on the interwebz would be a much nicer place.

 

[beyond72]

GTS cons:
Nonexistent AI

The main thing which would put me off buying another GT game.

FM7 pros:
Large amount of content
Free Play mode

Despite it's flaws, the free play mode makes it one of my favourite driving games of all time.
For me it's what GT6 promised to be.

Forza 7 has 1 event for each car. There's no point in buying a car and tuning it up, the car comes with the homologated spec for it's one event.

Letting you drive different cars in a single championship (and pick between short or long races) is a great touch though.

 

[Scaff]

This all just reads as an unsubtle way to stoke the us-versus-them attitude that is problematic in sim racing. I can't imagine someone who genuinely enjoys cars would limit themselves to a single title. That's missing out on so much of what the genre offers, and I'm not even talking about just GT and FM, but all the other great titles out there right now. This is probably the best generation to be a racing game fan.

100% agree.

I certainly can't recall a better time to be a sim-racer at all.

I really enjoy GTS for its visuals and overall accessibility, regardless of its physics issues, ditto with Forza when I've played it. Add in then the number of more focused (for want of a better word) sims, be they track or rally focused.

 

[AlanH49]

The flaws are transparent in both titles, yet you chose to list physics as a negative under one of them only, yet by any reasonable assesment, both have clear issues with the physics model.

I think ‘flaw’ is the wrong term to use. I’d class it more as ‘concessions’ for a wider audience and controller users.

Yesterday I drove plenty of laps in the 962. Also one of my favourite cars in Assetto Corsa. Immediately they felt very similar. A vacant front end, but fantastic traction. It feels like a high downforce GT car and quite unique.

As I say, between GTS & AC, the 962 felt very similar. But it is obvious GTS allows you to take more liberties under braking and on the kerbs. As a largely DS4 user it allows me to really push the car. In AC the car could be tamed, but I never felt able to really push. Meanwhile, in PCars2 Group C cars where virtually underivable on a pad.

 

[JayRS200]

It's all relative. We are judging what we have at a specific time. Graphics improve, other things improve.

Pick an analogy.

 

[Scaff]

I think ‘flaw’ is the wrong term to use. I’d class it more as ‘concessions’ for a wider audience and controller users.

Yesterday I drove plenty of laps in the 962. Also one of my favourite cars in Assetto Corsa. Immediately they felt very similar. A vacant front end, but fantastic traction. It feels like a high downforce GT car and quite unique.

As I say, between GTS & AC, the 962 felt very similar. But it is obvious GTS allows you to take more liberties under braking and on the kerbs. As a largely DS4 user it allows me to really push the car. In AC the car could be tamed, but I never felt able to really push. Meanwhile, in PCars2 Group C cars where virtually underivable on a pad.

I think 'flaw' is exactly the right word.

Launching a car from standstill results in majority showing no torque steer at all, and the ones that do it is significantly reduced and occurring far too late, that's a flaw.

From standstill the pick-up of grip is utterly and completely wrong, resulting in the engine bouncing off the rev-limiter repeatedly, rather than dropping and then picking up as it should, that's a flaw.

The dampers are work as if they are perfect and able to return a car to a settled state after one cycle, that's a flaw.

The FFB adds in vibration on understeer or oversteer, that's a flaw.

The FFB uses a reduction in Self Aligning Torque to indicate oversteer (this should only occur on understeer), that's a flaw.

If you wish to describe these as 'concessions' then feel free, but they are quick clearly areas (and more exist) that show the physics engine differing from reality, those to me are flaws. They don't stop me playing GTS, but it also doesn't mean I'm going to ignore them or excuse them.

 

[burritoo]

The series and Sport itself, are in a much better position compared to the PS3 era titles. The "soft reboot" approach PD took has definitely helped them organize things, even if there have been some tradeoffs along the way. I still find it hard to believe how something as simple as "locked 60fps" was considered a pipe dream for PD and Kaz in that same era. It's been a racing sim standard for decades, so it's awesome that we've returned back to the same level of greatness that the PS2 era had.

 

[Veinz]

how did GT Sport managed to make GT no longer a laughing stock.

No more recycled “standard” cars from last gen games.

The sound is also much better, I remember putting the racing exhaust on a Camaro SS back in the day and having it sound like a vacuum cleaner.

GTS got delayed but at least they didn’t wait until the end of the PS4 era to release it. GT6 releasing on PS3 a month after the PS4 came out was a joke.

I love GT and owned them all, but the PS3 era wasn’t as spectacular as people make it out to be. FM was the better series at the time imho, especially FM4. Unfortunately FM starting sucking as soon as it hit the Xbox one.

 

[Scaff]

The series and Sport itself, are in a much better position compared to the PS3 era titles. The "soft reboot" approach PD took has definitely helped them organize things, even if there have been some tradeoffs along the way.

Quite agree.

I still find it hard to believe how something as simple as "locked 60fps" was considered a pipe dream for PD and Kaz in that same era. It's been a racing sim standard for decades, so it's awesome that we've returned back to the same level of greatness that the PS2 era had.

Technically unless you have a PS4 Pro its not a locked frame rate, they hit 60fps the vast majority of the time, but it can on rare occasions drop below that.

 

[Hoopzah]

I think 'flaw' is exactly the right word.

Launching a car from standstill results in majority showing no torque steer at all, and the ones that do it is significantly reduced and occurring far too late, that's a flaw.

From standstill the pick-up of grip is utterly and completely wrong, resulting in the engine bouncing off the rev-limiter repeatedly, rather than dropping and then picking up as it should, that's a flaw.

The dampers are work as if they are perfect and able to return a car to a settled state after one cycle, that's a flaw.

The FFB adds in vibration on understeer or oversteer, that's a flaw.

The FFB uses a reduction in Self Aligning Torque to indicate oversteer (this should only occur on understeer), that's a flaw.

If you wish to describe these as 'concessions' then feel free, but they are quick clearly areas (and more exist) that show the physics engine differing from reality, those to me are flaws. They don't stop me playing GTS, but it also doesn't mean I'm going to ignore them or excuse them.

Uhh.. what wheel do you use??

 

[Scaff]

Uhh.. what wheel do you use??

T300, but it was exactly the same with a T150 and the G29 I have also used on a friends PS4, its a known issue as a number of members here have also observed (one recent example).

 

[Hoopzah]

Interesting.
I think they may have made a mistake designing the "feel" of the actual physics around 1 wheel, the T-GT. And the game is at a stage where I'm not sure they would be willing to go back and redo alot of the code for other wheels, because some of what you mention isn't present in the T-GT (like the feeling of loss of grip and dampers returning to center.) I would imagine the feeling of shifting mass should be an easy fix.. but I'm not a coder.

As far as the SAT (or Mz), hopefully someone at PD sees this and takes this into consideration for future changes because I think you may be on to something.. there is tire flex, and speed difference so there must be an individual tire physics model.. but nobody's articulated it that well. (That I've seen.)

 

[Silver Arrows]

This all just reads as an unsubtle way to stoke the us-versus-them attitude that is problematic in sim racing. I can't imagine someone who genuinely enjoys cars would limit themselves to a single title. That's missing out on so much of what the genre offers, and I'm not even talking about just GT and FM, but all the other great titles out there right now. This is probably the best generation to be a racing game fan.

What do you expect? This mentality runs deeper on this site then I think people imagine, even with the glut of good titles available in the genre.