How did Gran Turismo Sport make GT franchise no longer a laughing stock?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by o000o, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    The damper issue is with the suspension model, not specifically the FFB via the wheel and I seriously doubt they will fix it, as it been like that since GT4 at least.

    With regard to SAT, I think its deliberate and used as an easy (but inaccurate) way of communicating the loss of grip from the rear of the car.

    As far as I am aware the only thing the TG-T adds is the small tactile puck that only works with GTS, but I've only ever had a quick go on one with GTS and that was a while ago.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  2. beyond72

    beyond72

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    Sorry but that is absolute rubbish, Forza 7 has one of the best car selections to date in any game, it's like the history of motorsports in a box.
    The only way I could see anyone criticizing it, is if they have no interest in older cars.
     
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  3. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk Premium

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    GTP:

    I'm tired of PD not adding a new cars, they're lazy for just giving us the same old ones. This game is stale.

    Also GTP:

    Why don't PD give is the same old tracks we've had before, GTS is flop.
     
  4. AutobacsJM

    AutobacsJM

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    how does a racing game with so many other community aspects NOT HAVE VOICECHAT in 2019? really PD?
     
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  5. Nielsen

    Nielsen

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    I agree that tires could be better in GTS, but not to the point where I'm finding the physics counter-intuitive. Other areas of the physics are arguably lacking too, but this is mostly result of the general limitations with simulation depth in games like GT and Forza.

    The damper model in GTS is something I haven't paid much attention to, but you may have a point there. However, I'd say the behavior of suspension springs is almost spot with weight transfer being better than some of the more serious simulators on the market. Both AC and PC2 have more room for improvement in this area, in my opinion.

    To compare with Forza, weight transfer feels exaggerated in FM7. The amount of suspension travel it offers on some cars both feels and looks exaggerated, contributing to the quirky physics I was getting at to begin with.
     
  6. Hoopzah

    Hoopzah

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    Forza wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Gran Turismo. Point blank period. The comparison ends there. GT= the originator, Forza is like the wannabe. GT does something creative and unique and Forza copies it. How could anyone argue that??
    The thread title should be: What can Gran Turismo do to keep the copy cats from whining?
     
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  7. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows Premium

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    Man, in that case, it took a long ass time for GT to have a livery editor considering Forza had it in the first game in 2005. Or online play. Or Ferraris and or Porsche.

    This is such an asinine post.
     
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  8. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    And that matters, why? Gran Turismo likely wouldn't have existed if it weren't for idea's from something else. They didn't exactly invent the wheel.

    :lol: Who cares? This literally has absolutely no relevance at all to absolutely anything.

    Like what? What are all the absolutely 100% original things that GT is doing? Everyone gets idea's from somewhere, and GT is no exception.

    Very easily if you at least attempt to be level headed.

    The idea you're trying to put forth here is that everything in GT, and currently in GTS is 100% originated from them and has not been seen in any game until they came up with it, correct? Right.:rolleyes:
     
  9. FoRiZon

    FoRiZon

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    Let's not go there I guess? I like GT but this fanboyism flame war isn't what I want to be.

    Both has great qualities for each of their own.
     
  10. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Agreed.

    The behaviour of the springs and weight transfer in GTS is anything but almost spot on, and it's clearly demonstrable that it has issues, and certainly not close to AC or PC2, let along 'being better'.

    GTS allows you to ride curbs, even sausage curbs with virtual impunity, particularly if no steering lock is applied, it's more evident in lighter cars, but certainly noticeable in all cars, and it's blatantly inaccurate. This highlights a simplification of the entire suspension model, from the dampers to the springs and roll bars, including load transfer.

    The issues with load transfer are also still clear to see (while improved from GT5 and GT) and tie into the suspension issues in the area of static car launches, as no lateral static loading is accounted for (this is why you get the almost always poker straight launches and the lack of initial pick-up by the driven wheels), even when the car is in motion the far too forgiving stability under braking is another give away in this regard (and is most clear in road cars), and this is further highlighted by the issues around road and rack surface changes having no impact on braking stability.

    In reality, even seemingly flat tracks like Silverstone have crests that while small is enough to unload the suspension and unsettle the car should you be braking when going over them. AC and PC2 model this, GTS doesn't, as such a claim that GTS has modelled the area of load transfer better or that its suspension is almost spot on simply doesn't stack up.

    I like GTS, I really do, but it's demonstrably working to a lower level of physics fidelity that AC or PC2. That's not a dig at GTS, they focus on different areas with the system budget they have to play with.

    I would agree its exaggerated to a degree, but its simply the opposite end of the scale to GTS, both are wrong just at the opposite extremes.
     
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  11. George Jakob

    George Jakob

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    But it didn't because Gran Turismo was never a laughing stock (exept when it comes to car sounds ) .
     
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  12. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Administrator

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    Whoa now, don't give me that sort of title! I just took that old GT5 commercial to heart: "we love cars" indeed.

    This is another example of the us-versus-them attitude. I'll just touch on some brief things:
    • Harder to drive =/= more realistic. Even Kazunori has said as much, so it's strange you'd take another title to task for the perceived ease of it.
    • "Over half" is demonstrably false. If you have to lie to make a point, you don't have one.
    • I'd make the argument "hard core" racers probably prefer PC sim racers, to be honest.
    Yeah, it's strange. It's almost like GTP is a large community, full of thousands of people, with differing opinions on a great many things.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. o000o

    o000o

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    And why would you blame PD for the last one? Blame freaking EA for that.
     
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  14. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    Look up.

    What you missed was that Silver Arrows was not blaming anyone. They were making another asinine post to demonstrate just how asinine Hoopzah's post was.

    I find it incredible that anyone could read Slips earlier post in regard to the them and us attitude and then go on to post as some have done since.
     
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  15. beyond72

    beyond72

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    Let me guess....GT= real sim, Forza = arcade game
    Forza has arguable already beaten GT as a single player game and now Turn 10 is eyeing GT's multi-player side of the game.
    While it may improve (shouldn't be too hard!) I don't think it's ready to compete with GT's.
    I think it's clear what both series need to do, if they want to tempt players to pick their game instead.
     
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  16. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

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    And here lies the problem. Many gamers are forced to choose one over the other. Can you imagine if we were forced into a decision which meant we could only watch certain movies at the movie theatre or buy certain music albums? It's a strange idiosyncrasy of this form of entertainment. I'm lucky enough to not have to be forced into that decision. I can play all the games I want and like or dislike them based on my own experiences rather than some allegiance. It would be great if we could get to the point where you could buy one little reasonably priced box to sit under your TV and play whatever game you wanted. If that ever happened the them and us would probably be severely reduced.
     
  17. beyond72

    beyond72

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    I know, are they really better off trying to force people to buy their console, rather than selling possibly, double the amount of games and DLC?
     
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  18. Nielsen

    Nielsen

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    You've paid attention to some finer details I haven't myself.

    Based on my experience though, in AC it's really difficult to induce any noticeable body roll when steering left and right, whereas PC2 can sometimes feel too wobbly on the springs, particularly under acceleration and braking. GTS communicates weight transfer closest to the sensations I get in a real car, especially left / right body roll

    There's probably no denying that Slightly Mad and Kunos have written the deeper code for various simulation values in their respective titles. How this translates to different players is then a matter of perception, and where this disagreement is rooted. All this being said, AC is the most intuitive and finest driving simulation I have experienced overall.
     
  19. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Yes, both can be improved by learning from the other, they each have their strengths and weaknesses.
     
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  20. Hoopzah

    Hoopzah

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    I wouldn't say asinine, as much as factual.

    Look, to me there is no "us/ them." From the microcosm to the macrocasm we are all one. If you know anything about the advancements humanity has been making into quantum physics, science is proving this.. yet I digress.

    The point I am making for anyone intelligent enough to see it is that one game could not be a laughing stock without the other being equally so. There would be no Forza without Gran Turismo. As the progenitor of console sim racing, it's absurd to even remotely suggest that GT was ever a "laughing stock" especially with it's sales figures.

    Real sim? No, not quite. Those cost six digits. But as others have indicated (and I'll let them do the speaking) Forza is becoming more like Need for Speed.
    Polyphony Digital has stated their main focus is multiplayer. They will not be returning to the 1,000 car, extended campaign, tuning orientated model. I'd hope Forza would be ahead in single player gameplay, because GT isn't paying attention to it anymore.

    With the FIA deal Sony has, it will be very very hard, if not impossible for anyone to surpass GT's multiplayer model. With the evolutionary curve Poly seems to be taking GT on Turn 10 needs to come up with something truly unique instead of just ripping PD off as they have in the past.. and continue to do.

    The first console I ever bought with my own money was the original XBOX, and I got it on preorder.. I think I was like 15. So don't think I'm some Sony "Fanboi" what I am is someone who truly dislikes companies and firms that copy the success of others with no creative process to add to the evolution of whatever industry the "thieves" happen to be in.
     
  21. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows Premium

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    You...you do realize that progenitors of anything can be surpassed by the competition if they are put into a state of complacency, or any other number of factors?

    Is that not what happened last generation? Because of Polyphony being caught off guard by the complex architecture of the PS3, among many other factors, it allowed Forza an opening that they took full advantage of, and now we're here.

    Being an originator means jack **** in this day and age, especially in sim racing.
     
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  22. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I'm known for it.

    I can only presume you are talking about the visual sensation when in the car, as that would tie in with the very limited world movement in GTS and AC, and the extensive (but by default quite active) world movement in PC2.

    I'm referring to the actual movement that is occurring and the effect it has on the dynamics of the car, now in AC and PC2 using telemetry via UDP apps it's easy to check and see what is going on, and in both cases its what you would expect in terms of a parallel with reality.

    With GTS slightly more difficult to check, but still possible, and again we get areas that show what the issues are. I've just run the GT86 back to back across all three and the difference is night and day when you do so. AC and PC2 communicate the load transfer and changing track surface and its undulations, etc and it has a direct impact on the steering feedback, the balance of the car under cornering, braking and acceleration With GTS it's all smoothed out, with the load transfer and track changes being communicated it what I can only describe as a simplified form, to the degree that some elements are absent (steering load changes due to crests and compressions being the most obvious.

    It's also visible in the lack of lift-off oversteer in the likes of the Clio and ITR (both of which I've driven in reality and both of which can be driven via the throttle in a very direct way), and again in the manner that even the smallest and lightest cars can ride the sausage curbs without any real disturbance. A few minutes ago I took a Gordini R8 over a sausage curb (front and rear) at 60 mph and the tyres didn't even break contact with the surface. What should have happened is at that speed the suspension travel bottomed out and hit the end of travel, resulting in a very real and immediate kicking of that corner/side of the car off the track surface (the force of that impact has to keep going someplace). These kind of contacts are what can and often does tip cars over, yet the R8 did it, repeatedly, without breaking a sweat. Once again n both AC and PC2 doing this kind of thing will result in a loss of control and a car up on two wheels.

    As I mentioned earlier its down to how the devs spend that system budget, I don't expect GTS to have an in-depth physics model given the amount of that budget spent on the visuals and lighting it would be impossible to have the remaining resource to get close to the fidelity of the likes of AC or PC2.

    Its why I run all three most days, as they all scratch a specific itch.


    Nope, it's not, its the first caRPG and the first title to bring a massive range of road cars to a sim on a console.

    Sim racing titles such as the F1 series and TOCA series all pre-date GT and were most certainly aimed at being console Sims of the day, and for my money, TOCA did a better job in that regard than GT did.

    Selling a lot doesn't stop you getting launched at or mocked, Justin Beiber is evidence enough of that.


    And as others still have said, Forza still manages to beat out GT in some areas of simulation. They are in reality both playing in the same arena and both at roughly the same level.

    A bold claim to make given that only those who know what GT7 will be are in a position to make.

    [/quote]
    With the FIA deal Sony has, it will be very very hard, if not impossible for anyone to surpass GT's multiplayer model. With the evolutionary curve Poly seems to be taking GT on Turn 10 needs to come up with something truly unique instead of just ripping PD off as they have in the past.. and continue to do.[/quote]
    Unique, as in lifted in structure and approach from iRacing? Unique as in following an eSport structure that numerous other titles have been using with racing sims for years? Unique as in not being either the first or only title to have FIA backing or have events hosted at FIA events?

    In other words not actually that unique at all.

    You mistake a big marketing budget for unique.

    [/quote]
    The first console I ever bought with my own money was the original XBOX, and I got it on preorder.. I think I was like 15. So don't think I'm some Sony "Fanboi" what I am is someone who truly dislikes companies and firms that copy the success of others with no creative process to add to the evolution of whatever industry the "thieves" happen to be in.[/QUOTE]
    And yet you ignore the fact that a) PD have lifted a good number of ideas from other titles and recycled them, and b) that Forza as a series has beat GT to the punch in a number of areas that PD borrowed.
     
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  23. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows Premium

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    Scaff basically did the breakdown that post deserves, but if GT Sport's biggest party trick this time around in multiplayer is something that has already been around for what, a little over a decade by this point, then is the series the cutting edge you want it to be?
     
  24. Hoopzah

    Hoopzah

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    They all released in 1997, and as far as I'm aware of GT was in development long before F1 and TOCA

    And Justin Bieber is relevant... how...?
    I stated an opinion, which I'm entitled to.[/quote]


    Fair enough.

    I'm merely [re]stating what Kaz already has. Are they (Sony/PD) free to change their minds? Of course. But given the loads they've spent on market research, combined with the results of that research I think it's pretty clear what direction their going in... but who knows?

    Erm.. if by structure you mean grading based on a players skill and ability to race clean, which by the way is the only logical (and unpatentable) system, then I suppose you could be correct.
    F1 has an FIA license, but Gran Turismo is the only video game to date that is accredited and FIA certified. And it started with GT6. I don't know the tangibles for future exclusivity (could be 3 years, or 10.. no idea), but as of now, nobody else can do what they are.


    One would think given the manner of your posting style you would elaborate on what exactly PD has "borrowed" from Forza.

    There was a rumor I heard a long time ago that Microsoft approached Sony to get GT on XBOX. Sony basically said no. Now.. If you know anything about Microsoft's history in acquisitions, they are extremely aggressive. Microsoft is the company that if you say no, they come back and basically try to destroy you until you give in. Bill Gates was seen as a nerd, but his business savvy was absolutely brutal. That culture IS Microsoft. There are plenty of documented cases where they develop something that changes the market to get another company to submit. Remember the Netscape fiasco?
    At this point it doesn't matter, and it was a rumor but, still...

    Shortly after Sony declined, Forza is in development and here we are today.

    And that's the last time I ever make that many quotes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  25. GTV0819

    GTV0819

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    I have never played Forza yet even once these days but after seeing that it has more detailed cars, more customization or mods for cars and a dedicated free-roam mode, it makes me envy about it. I wonder why PD has not yet developed that latter feature for their game. Admittedly, some excuses won't just help for that. I like GT a lot but because it doesn't have all the stuff that I'm looking for in a simulator, I am forced then to play another series which has those missing stuffs.
     
  26. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows Premium

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    ....you really haven't looked at iRacing's system for licenses and such, have you?
     
  27. fastone371

    fastone371

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    Never anywhere did I say I disliked Forza, just like Playstaion and GT I have had (and still have) all of the XBox'es and most Forza titles, GT and Forza are really the only games I play. Maybe the "half of the cars are duplicates" is an exaggeration but I dont see how anyone who has played Forza 7 cant see that there are a great deal of duplicate cars with different paint jobs. As far as gameplay to me Forza feels much more arcade like. Fortunately since this is my opinion it makes little difference to me if you agree or not, that is after all what makes it an opinion after all, I wont be losing any sleep if you disagree. :cheers:
     
  28. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    Do you really want that? In Sport Mode? Could you imagine?

    Besides, I'm glad the days are gone of me hearing a 10yo popping gum or whistling or talking to their younger or older or both brothers and parents in the living room watching to everyone having dinner and I'm trying to race. Nah, I'm good.
     
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  29. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot Premium

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    Man, those double standards are getting out of hand :lol:

    Even with the FIA involved, it’s really not helping it do any more than titles that are running eSports events without having that Tag Line next to their name.

    So what you’re saying is that T10 needs to catch up to what GT is copycatting? Are you that unaware of literally anything else on the market? Because you keep pointing at one ripping off the other, but the one your touting up is doing exactly that.

    If they aren’t paying attention to it they wouldn’t have scrambled to put together the GT league after launch. This couldn’t be anymore further than the truth.

    Kaz also said in a recent article that there is going to be more focus on offline segments in the future. Whether that be this game or the next, we don’t know. I do know one thing though, you definitely don’t know.

    And really, it hasn’t done much outside of something to slap by a name. If other devs can full well be sponsored by the FIA, for eSports events, than what does it matter if one is certified or not? What is actually changing having that there?

    A livery editor is easily the most recognizable thing. So does the rating systems in something like iRacing. The funny thing here though is that PD could have taken that idea from a multitude of games. What was that you said about stealing/thieving? Oh yeah it was:

    And who the heck cares? Literally all of that is absolutely irrelevant to anything here.

    True. Good thing opinions can still be factually incorrect though.
     
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  30. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Once you try it, you'll realise it has missing things, too, that are in GT Sport.

    I like FH4 a lot, I really do, but it just annoys me so much at the same time. It could be truly great, but they just aren't interested in making all the changes that would achieve it. For example, tuning is REALLY important in the game, so there is a huge need to time trial your setups, over and over again. All fine, but..... the game doesn't have a time trial mode!!! You have to time trial your setups by racing them against AI, and even on the easiest level, 3 AI start ahead of you and it's a lottery whether you get clean past them or not. So you have to keep restarting the race until you fluke a clean pass of them all without costing yourself any time. I've had to restart maybe 50 times in the course of tuning one car. I'm sure you can imagine how annoying it becomes when you've asked via their official support system for a "no drivatars" option, or a time trial facility, and update after update comes out with "improvements" that are of no interest to you and actively make the game worse for you, while the things that would improve it so much get ignored. That is why I'm here.

    Oh, and a taste of what awaits you if you try the ranked racing in FH4:



    I had at no point done anything to provoke the driver in the last two incidents. It's very common for people to ram anyone who comes alongside to overtake.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019