How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[Kamuifanboy]

I don't understand you conclusion, but yes a majority of the things we know are learned, I don't dispute that. Being able to move your body and think are two things we a born with to just do. There is no learning how to think or how to move.

And yes with enough practice and time you probably could beat a leading driver right now, but in the time it would take you to reach that level someone else would probably surpass your target.



Athletic ability has been shown to be affected by your genes though, so yes someone could be born with the natural ability to run faster then someone else. I don't believe there is a natural ability to drive better though, it's not something we have developed through millions of years of evolution.

And I'll admit I was off with my comments earlier, perhaps I didn't state it correctly or I was speaking without a clear thought. But yes, it takes athletic ability to drive a racecar, but the main skill of actually driving the car fast and well is something you need to learn over time. Running, jumping, climbing, etc are all something you can be naturally good at through your genetic make up.



I don't dispute that racing drivers aren't "special", actually that's probably the wrong word to use but whatever. They posses a skill that the average person doesn't.

Your last sentence is the exact opposite of what you were saying before. Make up your mind man.

 

[hampus_dh]

Here are my best times from iRacing where i´ve really put down time and effort to be quick.

iRacing will make you humble whether you like it or not. Some of the guys above me are actual racing car drivers.

I´m top 33 in race-pace out of almost 1.600 drivers. Fairly quick right? Not a chance as i have a full SECOND to find somewhere despite wringing the **** out of the car.

My hotlap pace is the same story. 57 out of 1.592 people and missing more or less a full second.

At Mid-Ohio i´m 47 out of almost 1.800 drivers. Still missing a full second.

Race pace, the same deal again. 1 second exactly pretty much is what is missing.
There´s 47 other guys that can go quicker then me. Not because they have a better setup or they have money or sponsorhip but simply because they are quicker drivers then me.
And i respect that alot unlike you would Rich.

Ford GT at Silverstone i´m doing better. Mainly because the car just fits me very well.
But as you can see, i´m still missing exactly one second.

It doesn´t matter how much i train, i won´t be able to get any closer to these guys, it just won´t happen.

So my point is, even though you think you are quick, when compared with the best you are really not that quick at all.

 

[Joey D]

Your last sentence is the exact opposite of what you were saying before. Make up your mind man.

Is it? All I was saying before was that racing and driving is a skill you can learn, not something you are naturally good at. Being special doesn't mean you are naturally good at something, it just means that you are better then average people through hard work, training, etc. Anyone who is specialized in a field could probably be considered special.

 

[Sohvakettu]

And yes with enough practice and time you probably could beat a leading driver right now, but in the time it would take you to reach that level someone else would probably surpass your target.

Athletic ability has been shown to be affected by your genes though, so yes someone could be born with the natural ability to run faster then someone else. I don't believe there is a natural ability to drive better though, it's not something we have developed through millions of years of evolution.

Not just any practice but right practice. You can drive around endlessly and you won't reach the top.

There is a case about genes affecting person's ability to become a long distance runner but the gene is very common. i think over 50% of human population is born with it. The thing about natural ability is that the level needed isn't usually that high. You need certain level of physical and mental ability but this is often much lower than many think. There really isn't many rare "super mutant" genes around. If one gene is good it tends to become dominant in the population relatively quickly. We might be unique pretty snow flakes but that doesn't change the fact that in the end it's the same water forming us all. In genetical makeup humans in the whole world are more homogenous in average than for example chimpanzee groups of two different forests.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Is it? All I was saying before was that racing and driving is a skill you can learn, not something you are naturally good at. Being special doesn't mean you are naturally good at something, it just means that you are better then average people through hard work, training, etc. Anyone who is specialized in a field could probably be considered special.

Here's something that can throw a wrench in your idea of no natural ability. What about mentally ill or handicapped people. They are naturally not born with these things that we consider disabilities. Do you not think it be possible that some people are born with more of an ability than others?

 

[hampus_dh]

Anyone who is specialized in a field could probably be considered special.

Umm no. All F1 drivers are specialized in their field. Are they all "Special" ?

No. Only a handful are truly special.

 

[Joey D]

Not just any practice but right practice. You can drive around endlessly and you won't reach the top.

There is a case about genes affecting person's ability to become a long distance runner but the gene is very common. i think over 50% of human population is born with it. The thing about natural ability is that the level needed isn't usually that high. You need certain level of physical and mental ability but this is often much lower than many think. There really isn't many rare "super mutant" genes around. If one gene is good it tends to become dominant in the population relatively quickly. We might be unique pretty snow flakes but that doesn't change the fact that in the end it's the same water forming us all. In genetical makeup humans in the whole world are more homogenous in average than for example chimpanzee groups of two different forests.

I'll agree with this too, you do need the correct practice and training in order to be good. And I would probably say physical and mental ability are part of genetics too, some people are just better then others. You do need the right make up of genes though to come out with natural athletic ability.

Here's something that can throw a wrench in your idea of no natural ability. What about mentally ill or handicapped people. They are naturally not born with these things that we consider disabilities. Do you not think it be possible that some people are born with more of an ability than others?

I've already touched on that:

While you do need those things to drive, you also need them for every other activity in daily life. Every able minded and bodied person can do all of that, so it's nothing really special.

If you aren't able minded you don't have all the components to even live a simple life easily.

Umm no. All F1 drivers are specialized in their field. Are they all "Special" ?

No. Only a handful are truly special.

Within their field maybe not, but compared to the average population they are.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

With enough practice you could learn to drive fast and drive well. It takes a lot of work to get to that level. You need to study films and books, you need to understand physics, you need to understand the working of a car and you need to get track time.

IE you are saying that all it requires is practice and not any naturally born abilities.

And I would probably say physical and mental ability are part of genetics too, some people are just better then others. You do need the right make up of genes though to come out with natural athletic ability.

And yet, here you are saying that some are born with genetics that make them more physically and mentally better. I'm fairly certain you exert both physical and mental abilities while racing a Formula 1 car. Does that not make some better than others at racing? Using your logic, no.

edit:
The old saying that some drivers are able to adapt to Formula 1 quickly. And others adapt slowly or never even adapt at all.

Take Kamui Kobayashi for instance. When I talked to the guys about him, they said that when he came through the TDP program, he was instantly faster than all the other competitors. He had yet to be in a race car before, and was immediately outpacing the other drivers that had been racing race cars for a year or more, not to mention that they all had karting experience prior to the meeting.

Likewise when he made the jump from GP2 to F1. Instantly he "wow"ed everyone by his ability to hold up and pass Jensen Button who was in a, in theory, faster car.

Everyone in Formula 1 has to some extent, natural ability. It's having the whole package of abilities and drive that make the drivers like Senna, Schumacher, and I think Vettel is showing that he can rightfully be added to the list. You ask anybody with experience in the field. Finding a fast driver is one thing. But finding a driver that has the ability to everything that it takes, is another.

Kimi Raikkonen is a good example of raw talent that didn't have the whole package. Love the guy to death, he just lacks the other things needed to be great.

 

[Sohvakettu]

I'll agree with this too, you do need the correct practice and training in order to be good. And I would probably say physical and mental ability are part of genetics too, some people are just better then others. You do need the right make up of genes though to come out with natural athletic ability.

Indeed. But it's unlikely to be very uncommon genes. There definitely are people who can't ever become top level drivers but the population that can become top drivers aren't propably as low as "folk lore" would have us think.

To clarify my position in this: I think Top racers (and top level people of any art) are special but it's the amount of work that they put in it that makes them special. You can't reach Webbers qualification times in just 30 minutes on your first outing in a F1 car. But you don't have to be born finnish either to do it. (Finland has most rally champions in the world and most F1 champions relative to population )

 

[Joey D]

IE you are saying that all it requires is practice and not any naturally born abilities.

And yet, here you are saying that some are born with genetics that make them more physically and mentally better. I'm fairly certain you exert both physical and mental abilities while racing a Formula 1 car. Does that not make some better than others at racing? Using your logic, no.

Probably != for sure. I'm guessing, I have no idea whether or not physically and mental ability are part of genetics. But anyway my original point is getting lost so I would like to bring it back to that.

I think the issue here is that you think I'm some how discrediting racecar drivers, I can assure you I am not. I respect what they do and I think they posses amazing skills that I couldn't match because I just don't have the resources in which to do it. My main point in all of this though is no on is born knowing how to drive or posses any natural ability dealing with the concept of driving. I also don't see racers as athletes because their skills aren't natural, they are learned.

I understand that many of you will disagree with me and that's fine, but I do just want to set the record straight that I do think racers have special skills.

 

[hampus_dh]

Within their field maybe not, but compared to the average population they are.

No i would say they are some of the worlds best drivers but special?
No that only goes for a handful of players just like it does in any other sport.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

edit:
The old saying that some drivers are able to adapt to Formula 1 quickly. And others adapt slowly or never even adapt at all.

Take Kamui Kobayashi for instance. When I talked to the guys about him, they said that when he came through the TDP program, he was instantly faster than all the other competitors. He had yet to be in a race car before, and was immediately outpacing the other drivers that had been racing race cars for a year or more, not to mention that they all had karting experience prior to the meeting.

Likewise when he made the jump from GP2 to F1. Instantly he "wow"ed everyone by his ability to hold up and pass Jensen Button who was in a, in theory, faster car.

If everyone is the same. Then how come some are able to cope and others don't?

Everyone in Formula 1 has to some extent, natural ability. It's having the whole package of abilities and drive that make the drivers like Senna, Schumacher, and I think Vettel is showing that he can rightfully be added to the list. You ask anybody with experience in the field. Finding a fast driver is one thing. But finding a driver that has the ability to everything that it takes, is another.

Kimi Raikkonen is a good example of raw talent that didn't have the whole package. Love the guy to death, he just lacks the other things needed to be great.

read.

I think the issue here is that you think I'm some how discrediting racecar drivers, I can assure you I am not. I respect what they do and I think they posses amazing skills that I couldn't match because I just don't have the resources in which to do it. My main point in all of this though is no on is born knowing how to drive or posses any natural ability dealing with the concept of driving.

By simply stating that the only reason you aren't a top racecar driver is "I just don't have the resources in which to do it" is discrediting in its' self. I'll go give you a could hundred million dollars to spend on becoming a professional racecar driver. And I'll even give you a 15 years or so. I'd be willing to be you wouldn't be at the level of say Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, or Schumacher.

Or for all we know, you could be better. But I highly doubt that.

I also don't see racers as athletes because their skills aren't natural, they are learned.

With the logic that you have to learn to get good at something, you are basically saying that what group are considered athletes?

 

[Rich S]

By simply stating that the only reason you aren't a top racecar driver is "I just don't have the resources in which to do it" is discrediting in its' self. I'll go give you a could hundred million dollars to spend on becoming a professional racecar driver. And I'll even give you a 15 years or so. I'd be willing to be you wouldn't be at the level of say Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, or Schumacher.

You know its funny....frankie muniz sort of did that....he's become reasonably good. Maybe the average joe cannot even get close to Alonso, but its impossible for me to believe a lot of guys can get pretty darn close.

I know this is the "anger chord" of motorsports. I'm sorry for that.

This issue has come up recently, and its incredible how much backlash it gets.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6789712/nascar-golden-tate-coming-drivers-athletes

 

[Kamuifanboy]

You know its funny....frankie muniz sort of did that....he's become reasonably good. Maybe the average joe cannot even get close to Alonso, but its impossible for me to believe a lot of guys can get pretty darn close.

And there's a reason Frankie only got to Formula BMW. And finished at the back of the pack mind you.

 

[Sach]

And there's a reason Frankie only got to Formula BMW. And finished at the back of the pack mind you.

Precisely. 💡

 

[Tuck !]

You know its funny....frankie muniz sort of did that....he's become reasonably good. Maybe the average joe cannot even get close to Alonso, but its impossible for me to believe a lot of guys can get pretty darn close.

I know this is the "anger chord" of motorsports. I'm sorry for that.

This issue has come up recently, and its incredible how much backlash it gets.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6789712/nascar-golden-tate-coming-drivers-athletes

You probably need to edit that.

By saying that the average people will not get close to alonso, that's saying he can do something that not everyone can do, so is he special?

I don't think this is an anger chord of motorsports, it's a rather debatable topic, so maybe the anger chord is something else I'd guess?

 

[Tuck !]

Athletic ability has been shown to be affected by your genes though, so yes someone could be born with the natural ability to run faster then someone else. I don't believe there is a natural ability to drive better though, it's not something we have developed through millions of years of evolution.

And I'll admit I was off with my comments earlier, perhaps I didn't state it correctly or I was speaking without a clear thought. But yes, it takes athletic ability to drive a racecar, but the main skill of actually driving the car fast and well is something you need to learn over time. Running, jumping, climbing, etc are all something you can be naturally good at through your genetic make up.

Edit : Sorry for the double post.

I don't dispute that racing drivers aren't "special", actually that's probably the wrong word to use but whatever. They posses a skill that the average person doesn't.

I agree with the part on racing drivers not depending on genetics. I would think that the body is not the limitting factor in racing (of course with adequate trainings) but rather the mind is the factor which determines how good the driver is, I very much doubt that has to do with genetics. On this topic whether or not drivers Display athleticism or not depends on your definition of athlete. I'm afraid if Our definitions vary we'll not be able to find a common ground.

 

[Sohvakettu]

Well in the sense that the performance of the car seems to be more of a limiting factor for success than the fitness I can understand some people don't take drivers to be strictly athletes, if being athlete is defined as being a person participating in a competition about physical performance of a human body. With this definition F1 drivers will become athletes at the point where the performance of the drivers becomes a bigger limiting factor than the performance of cars, that is when the cars are so fast that the body of the driver isn't able to take the car around the track at the potential top speeds. All this ofcourse depends on how we define the word athlete.

There is no doubt that at some of the top level motorsports a very good physique is a must and even in the rest it helps (mind working better when the body isn't easily fatiqued).

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Not to be too cocky but I think your very very wrong (in my opinion.) Although GT5 is vastly different from real F1 cars.

Yes, very wrong...

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Rich, set up a new psn and lets have a f2007/10 race this weekend. Personally, I understand everyones opinion. We need to agree that we disagree.

Now let's race! This will be huge fun guys.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yes, very wrong...

Like I mentioned before I doubt he would be able to.

Here is a link to Alonso's driving on FVA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqZvwc85-Vc

 

[Seismica]

Driving REALLY fast is something you simply cannot learn, you are born with it.

No amount of learning, reading or practise will close the gap to someone with that natural talent.

People are born with natural aptitude for all kinds of things that aren't what you'd call evolved behaviors.
Some people have natural talent.

Of course somebody can practice a lot at something and get good. But 9 times out of 10 somebody who doesn't have some natural given talent won't get even close to being pro.

I agree but I also think it takes a little bit of both because everyone can drive like you said, but some are born with that natural talent. Everyone will run on the track in a track day for example, but one driver will be the fastest because he has that talent, and the drive to do it.

IE you are saying that all it requires is practice and not any naturally born abilities.

And there's a reason Frankie only got to Formula BMW. And finished at the back of the pack mind you.

A comment from my Girlfriend, who has been studying Psychology for 4 years and is now at Degree level:

"How talented people are depends on both what they are born with and the environment. People are born with a slight genetic predisposition towards particular skills, but it is how they are brought up and what they are exposed to which affects talent. If an ability such as being a great F1 driver was innate then you would have everyone being great and then the idea of being a great F1 driver would be kind of meaningless. To get to a high level of any field it relies more on repetitive practice of activity than some "magical" innate power. To be able to drive at all involves the development of a driving heuristic; knowing when to overtake someone and when and where to go faster all involves heuristics. It also involves having a high level of spatial perception. Also when this practice is started at a younger age the brains neural pathways will be built and strengthened quicker than when people are older, hence drivers that have been karting since the age of about 7 or 8 will be better than people like Frankie Muniz who started in his late teens. It's the same for any "talent" (talent being a quite dubious phrase in my opinion skill would be better) such as learning foreign languages which is recognised as being more straightforward when you are younger. It is quite reductionist to say that any "talent" is innate within a person as it presumes that we as individuals have no control over our behaviours and that it is all genetic. It does not take into account other influences. If people had that sort of attitude in other areas then every country would still have an impermeable class system where your lot in life is totaly determined by genetics and birth."

In other words, environmental influences are more important that natural influences. So saying that Drivers can only succeed with natural talent is quite ignorant. I just wish I could have phrased it as good as the quote above ^_^

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Yes...what she said.

 

[hampus_dh]

She just contradicted everything you said though.

 

[Seismica]

She just contradicted everything you said though.

No, she highlighted why natural talent (innate ability) isn't as important as other people are making out. This supports the argument that I posted earlier in the thread.

Or have you mixed me up with the other person with a Tiger avatar?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

A comment from my Girlfriend, who has been studying Psychology for 4 years and is now at Degree level:

"How talented people are depends on both what they are born with and the environment. People are born with a slight genetic predisposition towards particular skills, but it is how they are brought up and what they are exposed to which affects talent. If an ability such as being a great F1 driver was innate then you would have everyone being great and then the idea of being a great F1 driver would be kind of meaningless. To get to a high level of any field it relies more on repetitive practice of activity than some "magical" innate power. To be able to drive at all involves the development of a driving heuristic; knowing when to overtake someone and when and where to go faster all involves heuristics. It also involves having a high level of spatial perception. Also when this practice is started at a younger age the brains neural pathways will be built and strengthened quicker than when people are older, hence drivers that have been karting since the age of about 7 or 8 will be better than people like Frankie Muniz who started in his late teens. It's the same for any "talent" (talent being a quite dubious phrase in my opinion skill would be better) such as learning foreign languages which is recognised as being more straightforward when you are younger. It is quite reductionist to say that any "talent" is innate within a person as it presumes that we as individuals have no control over our behaviours and that it is all genetic. It does not take into account other influences. If people had that sort of attitude in other areas then every country would still have an impermeable class system where your lot in life is totaly determined by genetics and birth."

In other words, environmental influences are more important that natural influences. So saying that Drivers can only succeed with natural talent is quite ignorant. I just wish I could have phrased it as good as the quote above ^_^

Similar to what I said here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6215583#post6215583

I disagree with your summary. You need natural talent and also obviously environmental influences. Lewis Hamilton would not be an F1 driver without his dad helping him. However there are many who start a similar age as Lewis and they are not as fast as him. I think that is where the natural talent part comes in especially in top tier racing. The young drivers in F1 probably have very similar career paths but natural talent becomes much more important at this stage. I'm sure there are many dads out there get their sons into karting hoping they can be an F1 star in the future but people with the most natural ability usually do. Like Lewis with less experience won karting championships.

This could also be applied to GT5. GTP has a WRS, I'm sure there are people in different divisions who were brought up with similar environmental influnces but the gap in speed maybe is in seconds.

 

[Sohvakettu]

Hard to say when we don't know what actually set those other kids apart from hamilton. Maybe theyr training regiment was wrong? Maybe they weren't as motivated? Maybe they had worse mentors? We don't know.

Or have you mixed me up with the other person with a Tiger avatar?

Jesus Christ it's a tiger get in the car!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hard to say when we don't know what actually set those other kids apart from hamilton. Maybe theyr training regiment was wrong? Maybe they weren't as motivated? Maybe they had worse mentors? We don't know.



Jesus Christ it's a tiger get in the car!

Could apply to any driver. Racing drivers are usually quite hungry for success. I think it comes more within yourself. I'm sure quite a few of us who have posted have brothers and sisters who grew up in a similar environment. Family members do not excel at the same things though and in the same family people have different IQs and EQs. I believe that is also the same for twins as well. As someone pointed out some people understand some concepts better than others even at a very young age. I think natural talent is more important when it comes to top levels of any sport as people getting to that place would have similar environmental influences anyway. Otherwise the word talent should not exist and I should be able to become the best at anything if I put my mind to it and also having the right people around me.

 

[Scaff]

You know its funny....frankie muniz sort of did that....he's become reasonably good. Maybe the average joe cannot even get close to Alonso, but its impossible for me to believe a lot of guys can get pretty darn close.

Reasonably good and close to Alonso are still a very great distance apart.

I would go so far as to say that his perfromance.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Muniz#Racecar_driving


....quite handedly illustrates that you can't just take anyone and get them close to Alonso.

With pretty much no worries about finance Muniz failed to make an impact at anything about a National level, a very long way behind performances that get close to a world championship level.

I know this is the "anger chord" of motorsports. I'm sorry for that.

This issue has come up recently, and its incredible how much backlash it gets.

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/6789712/nascar-golden-tate-coming-drivers-athletes

I find it quite interesting that some one who started out with the same view as yourself and you have used to back your point, has to date come further along the road of stating that they were wrong than you've done.


Not to mention this bit....

It's all about education. Andy Papathanassiou, a former Stanford offensive lineman who oversees the strength and conditioning training of all pit crews at Hendrick Motorsports, is a firm believer in that.

Say a driver isn't an athlete and he'll give you a 30-minute dissertation on what makes motorsports a competition in the same realm as football and basketball, and then tell you that drivers are "100 percent athletes."

He'll tell you that a driver's heart rate goes to 80 percent of the maximum the heart can beat, along the lines of a marathon runner. He'll tell you the G-forces a driver experiences put so much stress and pressure on the lungs and rib cage "that if they didn't learn how to breath correctly at certain times they would pass out."

"Because you don't see the blood, sweat and tears in a driver because he's wearing a firesuit and a helmet and you see only the outside of the car, you don't see or experience what a human being is going through on the inside of that," Papathanassiou said.

Papathanassiou also will tell you the reason Johnson and other drivers such as Carl Edwards dominate is because they're in unbelievable shape. Put that with the competitive nature of the sport and he'll argue till the cows come home that they are athletes.

They always have been, even in the day when David Pearson often drove with one hand and smoked a cigarette with the other, which is impressive on a whole other level. Back in those days working out wasn't deemed necessary as it is today, just as many football players didn't work out year round then as they do now.

"The bottom line in any sport is getting the job done," Papathanassiou said. "It they don't happen to work out, it doesn't make them any less of a professional athlete."

But if you look at the top drivers in the sport today you'll see most are in excellent shape. From points leader Edwards and second-place Johnson to 52-year-old Mark Martin, you'll be hard pressed to find athletes in any sport that physically prepare more.

Edwards recently went through a series of tests with John Brenkus and the ESPN Sports Science team that'll give you an idea of how athletic he is. It was determined that the cardiovascular fitness of the driver that celebrates wins with a backflip is on par with elite marathon runners and cyclists.

....which quite clearly has an Athlete from a sport you accept as containing them quite categorically stating that drivers are Athlete and explaining exactly why.



Oh and for the record you were not told you would be banned if you didn't put the phrase 'in my opinion' in you posts, and I have a rather strong dislike for being taken out of context.

You were told not to post opinion as fact, and to be blunt you can stick 'in my opinion' in eight foot neon lights in front of something, if its still and opinion being presented as fact then the staff will treat it as such.


Scaff

 

[HKS racer]

I dont mean to stir up anger, but indeed; motor racing has become safe compared to surfing, competitive skiing for example.

Well you choose the wrong period to make such statement: Don Weldon, Marco Simoncelli, Guido Falaschi... they all passed recently. So no, motor racing is not safe enough compared to other sports, even x sports.