How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[Small_Fryz]

Maybe the average joe cannot even get close to Alonso, but its impossible for me to believe a lot of guys can get pretty darn close.

What is "pretty darn close?"

Its important we quantify that.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

A comment from my Girlfriend, who has been studying Psychology for 4 years and is now at Degree level:

"How talented people are depends on both what they are born with and the environment. People are born with a slight genetic predisposition towards particular skills, but it is how they are brought up and what they are exposed to which affects talent. If an ability such as being a great F1 driver was innate then you would have everyone being great and then the idea of being a great F1 driver would be kind of meaningless. To get to a high level of any field it relies more on repetitive practice of activity than some "magical" innate power. To be able to drive at all involves the development of a driving heuristic; knowing when to overtake someone and when and where to go faster all involves heuristics. It also involves having a high level of spatial perception. Also when this practice is started at a younger age the brains neural pathways will be built and strengthened quicker than when people are older, hence drivers that have been karting since the age of about 7 or 8 will be better than people like Frankie Muniz who started in his late teens. It's the same for any "talent" (talent being a quite dubious phrase in my opinion skill would be better) such as learning foreign languages which is recognised as being more straightforward when you are younger. It is quite reductionist to say that any "talent" is innate within a person as it presumes that we as individuals have no control over our behaviours and that it is all genetic. It does not take into account other influences. If people had that sort of attitude in other areas then every country would still have an impermeable class system where your lot in life is totaly determined by genetics and birth."

In other words, environmental influences are more important that natural influences. So saying that Drivers can only succeed with natural talent is quite ignorant. I just wish I could have phrased it as good as the quote above ^_^

Ok, further proving my point in a sense. Someone starting with natural talent, that puts in the same effort as someone who doesn't. Whose going to be better in the end? Pretty straightforward answer there. The person with natural talent.

But of course you didn't bring in peak ability anywhere. So your girlfriend failed to learn about peak ability when I learned it in my first year as a college student in a gen ed course.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

What is "pretty darn close?"

Its important we quantify that.

Probably within 0.5 seconds after 30 laps of practice .

 

[Kamuifanboy]

What is "pretty darn close?"

Its important we quantify that.

Well as a racecar driver. Pretty darn close is usually within 2 tenths of a second. Which is generally the maximum difference in speed to where you can keep up or not. But, i'm going to say that they have a different "opinion"

 

[Grand Prix]

We all know (or should know) every person is going to have different life experiences that shapes them into their way of thinking, skills, etc, along with the genetic makeup influencing things as well. So why is it a surprise that some will be better at certain things than others?

I know for a fact I could practice a car and track combo all day for several weeks and still not reach the level of "alien", top GT drivers, because I competed in a Boards Challenge once (and hope never to do it again). And that is without the added complexity of physical strength, stamina and g-forces, etc. Anyone who has put in the time and effort to do well in this sport (or even a representation of it) knows how incredibly difficult it is to gain extra tenths of a second.

But no matter how much will and determination I have, I won't be as good as the aliens because they just have the right stuff. And I can't understand how they do it.

The funny thing is, the few that I've talked to can't understand how anyone can be slow either.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

The funny thing is, the few that I've talked to can't understand how anyone can be slow either.

Yeah, i know that i've done that before. I just sit there watching people spin, crash, or just drive incredibly slow for hour and hours and just find myself completely baffled. But, As a part of my contract Toyota makes me be an instructor for some young driver events. And some of these kids just don't get it. They ask me how I drive fast, and i'm just like "... uh, I really don't know." So i'm not really helping

 

[Seismica]

Ok, further proving my point in a sense. Someone starting with natural talent, that puts in the same effort as someone who doesn't. Whose going to be better in the end? Pretty straightforward answer there. The person with natural talent.

But of course you didn't bring in peak ability anywhere. So your girlfriend failed to learn about peak ability when I learned it in my first year as a college student in a gen ed course.

Whilst I did quote you several times, you did at least acknowledge in your argument environmental influences. It was aimed at people who were stating that natural talent is the main influence whereas I feel there is evidence to show that environmental influences are more important. We are still discussing professional racing drivers in general right, and not the best of the best? Peak ability is irrelevant in this instance, unless you're talking about what is needed to be a multiple Formula 1 world champion.

To re-phrase my summary, both Natural and Environmental influences are required to get to the very top, but you can't realistically get far without early development of the skills, regardless of the natural talent you may/may not have. With less natural talent than a top driver, you can still get pretty far if you start young and develop those skills early. I know if I got in a racing car, i'd be rubbish, even though I possess very strong skills that would be associated with natural driving talent. I just developed them and used them in a different way.

There is no proof either way which is why it's an open ended argument. You said there is a reason Frankie Muniz didn't get further than Formula BMW. Is this lack of natural talent or the fact he started so late? I feel there is more evidence for the latter. As somebody said earlier, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

One thing is for certain though, developing these skills at such an early age makes the drivers special providing they are fully committed and work hard to reach the top. Someone who has developed the skills early in life when brain development has the most significant effect will be out of reach of those who are trying to develop these skills when they're in their late teens/early 20s.

 

[niky]

Sadly, for those of us who now have the inclination to get into motorsports... true.

 

[Rich S]

There is no proof either way which is why it's an open ended argument. You said there is a reason Frankie Muniz didn't get further than Formula BMW. Is this lack of natural talent or the fact he started so late? I feel there is more evidence for the latter. As somebody said earlier, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

One thing is for certain though, developing these skills at such an early age makes the drivers special providing they are fully committed and work hard to reach the top. Someone who has developed the skills early in life when brain development has the most significant effect will be out of reach of those who are trying to develop these skills when they're in their late teens/early 20s.

Yeah.....I agree.....Plus Muniz has a lot of money (or atleast he lives comfortably). He already has a profession too. Here's a question: How many are there competing in the FIA's Formula leagues? Renault, BMW, F2, etc?

 

[hampus_dh]

Around 50 guys and they are all slower then you.

 

[squirlybmx]

The recent Grand Prix in Abu Dhabi, had a cockpit shot of Vettel doing his pole lap, and with the clear visor, for almost the whole lap, he didn't appear to blink, just total concentration.

Similar sort of thing when Senna was racing in Monaco, and he said that he felt he was in a out of body experience, just putting in lap after lap, without realising what he was doing.

I've had that lapse of concentration where you end up just doing things instinctively without actually paying attention to where I was on the track. It scared the living **** out of me. And I set the fastest lap of the day during that too.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Yeah.....I agree.....Plus Muniz has a lot of money (or atleast he lives comfortably). He already has a profession too. Here's a question: How many are there competing in the FIA's Formula leagues? Renault, BMW, F2, etc?

FIA is the governing body over any official motorsport sanction. So to answer your question. Probably over a few thousand are in FIA's Formula Leagues.

 

[Scaff]

FIA is the governing body over any official motorsport sanction. So to answer your question. Probably over a few thousand are in FIA's Formula Leagues.

That's without looking at the national level forumla series run by the BRDC, SCCA, etc.

In total I would imagine the number of seats available to be surprisingly high.



Scaff

 

[hampus_dh]

There´s ACO aswell.

24 Hours of Le Mans
24 Hours of Le Mans Moto
Le Mans Classic
French motorcycle Grand Prix
1000 km of Le Mans
American Le Mans Series
European Le Mans Series
Le Mans Series
Japan Le Mans Challenge
Asian Le Mans Series
Intercontinental Le Mans Cup
Formula Le Mans
Le Mans Autumn Cup

 

[Rich S]

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

 

[nitrorocks]

There´s ACO aswell.

24 Hours of Le Mans
24 Hours of Le Mans Moto
Le Mans Classic
French motorcycle Grand Prix
1000 km of Le Mans
American Le Mans Series
European Le Mans Series
Le Mans Series
Japan Le Mans Challenge
Asian Le Mans Series
Intercontinental Le Mans Cup
Formula Le Mans
Le Mans Autumn Cup

World endurance championship

 

[Mac K]

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

Well without the driver there wouldn't be much of a team in the first place.. I think they're really something and if you haven't quite got the message, so does 99 percent of the others who posted in here as well. I don't want to upset you, but you made a pretty ludicrous statement and continue to do so.

 

[Sach]

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

Completely different argument now, out of nowhere...

 

[Scaff]

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

I can assure you its more than a few thousand.

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

How is that any different from a football team, a baseball team, a bobsled team, etc, etc, etc.

Hell most pro tennis players would have had a much harder time without a solid coach.

You do however seem to have a rather massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to racing drivers, which to be honest is a bit perplexing given the nature of the forum you have picked to voice it.


Scaff

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Completely different argument now, out of nowhere...

It's probably because his Ego thinks that he won the last argument. And that he is going to take us on again...

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

How much racing do you ACTUALLY watch? Most smaller race series are comprised of the SAME cars. Which are the SAME. Yeah so maybe one engine has 1 HP more or something. But that's not going to make anyone win over the other.

I don't know about you guys, but if I didn't thank the team each and every time I come off the track, I wouldn't have a seat. And that is the same with any other driver. I mean, I don't know about you, but how many drivers do you see that get interviewed after a race that;
1. Don't thank the team
2. Say that they were the only reason that I did well was all because of me.
In a sport comprised of needing connections to get much of anywhere these days, do you really expect to be a tool and get anywhere?

But of course, in your opinion, you'll refuse to understand anything that i've said and continue to make ignorant posts.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I can assure you its more than a few thousand.


How is that any different from a football team, a baseball team, a bobsled team, etc, etc, etc.

Hell most pro tennis players would have had a much harder time without a solid coach.

You do however seem to have a rather massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to racing drivers, which to be honest is a bit perplexing given the nature of the forum you have picked to voice it.


Scaff

It's not perplexing Scaff, that is the makings of a troll most times, but the user hasn't done anything too rash yet to make that true.

 

[nitrorocks]

It's probably because his Ego thinks that he won the last argument. And that he is going to take us on again...

How much racing do you ACTUALLY watch? Most smaller race series are comprised of the SAME cars. Which are the SAME. Yeah so maybe one engine has 1 HP more or something. But that's not going to make anyone win over the other.

I don't know about you guys, but if I didn't thank the team each and every time I come off the track, I wouldn't have a seat. And that is the same with any other driver. I mean, I don't know about you, but how many drivers do you see that get interviewed after a race that;
1. Don't thank the team
2. Say that they were the only reason that I did well was all because of me.
In a sport comprised of needing connections to get much of anywhere these days, do you really expect to be a tool and get anywhere?

But of course, in your opinion, you'll refuse to understand anything that i've said and continue to make ignorant posts.

Haha! So true. You just served him lol

 

[Sach]

Seriously can't tell if this guy is trolling or if he's just that hard-headed and stubborn. He thinks he knows more about racing than the drivers do themselves.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Seriously can't tell if this guy is trolling or if he's just that hard-headed and stubborn. He thinks he knows more about racing than the drivers do themselves.

I agree with you but at times it comes off as trolling.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

I'm waiting for his ignorant response to my last post...

 

[niky]

OK...I'm willing to accept there's some good talent in motor racing. The top 25 out of a few thousand is pretty solid.....

It really is all about the TEAM though. The driver is one of many. Some of these drivers seem to think their really something (most of them.)

I posted this in the other thread, but it bears reposting here:

In a motor racing series like F1, the difference between the best and those who are simply in the top 1% is something like half-a-second to a second a lap. But the difference between the best and worst car is something like 2-3 seconds.

The difference, however, between the best team (right now, Red Bull) and the second-best (say, McLaren) is about a half-second per lap, so an exceptional driver, one whose skill is worth a half-second to a second per lap over anyone else, can still score more points than a merely great driver in the best car.

Of course, race engineers and pit crews do play a big part of the team, but if the driver is (a brown sticky substance that remains after food is digested), they're not going to win anything.

 

[Rich S]

Yeah, i know that i've done that before. I just sit there watching people spin, crash, or just drive incredibly slow for hour and hours and just find myself completely baffled. But, As a part of my contract Toyota makes me be an instructor for some young driver events. And some of these kids just don't get it. They ask me how I drive fast, and i'm just like "... uh, I really don't know." So i'm not really helping

Well without the driver there wouldn't be much of a team in the first place.. I think they're really something and if you haven't quite got the message, so does 99 percent of the others who posted in here as well. I don't want to upset you, but you made a pretty ludicrous statement and continue to do so.

Kamuifanboy, there's the engineers, the pit crew, (in Nascar the crew chief, the spotters), the sponsors, teammates, engine suppliers, track volunteers, the fans the officials & stewards.....the list goes on and on. Not to mention your family. Not to mention the team has (as has been pointed out) thousands of drivers to choose from. Your replaceable (if your a driver, I dont know who you are).

Then there's a contract....anybody racing in this manner is obligated to be very professional. So is it "really something" to drive & perform in a professional manner? I dont think so. I do think when somebody is incredible, like Sebastion Vettel or Kamui Kobayashi is, that is something special.

 

[Kamuifanboy]

Kamuifanboy, there's the engineers, the pit crew, (in Nascar the crew chief, the spotters), the sponsors, teammates, engine suppliers, track volunteers, the fans the officials & stewards.....the list goes on and on. Not to mention your family. Not to mention the team has (as has been pointed out) thousands of drivers to choose from. Your replaceable (if your a driver, I dont know who you are).

Then there's a contract....anybody racing in this manner is obligated to be very professional. So is it "really something" to drive & perform in a professional manner? I dont think so.

1. that second quote is not from me.
2. your ignoring my post from 2 posts prior.
3. this post by you is completely useless.

By saying "If your a driver, I dont know who you are" you are trying to get what point across? Did I ever say I was famous and that you should know me? Nope, don't recall. I'm simply giving you the perspective of someone who's been racing cars for 2 years and karts for 8. I think that gives me a lot more credibility than you, if credibility is what you're trying to get at. But at this point, your stupidity and ignorance is beyond anything i've ever seen on the internet before, and everyone on this thread is honestly trying to fix you. But I guess ignorant people are ignorant.

 

[Sach]

1. that second quote is not from me.
2. your ignoring my post from 2 posts prior.
3. this post by you is completely useless.

It didn't make any at all to me. Not professional? I don't get it.

 

[Schwartz]

Jesus Christ! Rich S is still carrying on his argument???