How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[Famine]

British professional football had an experience with what happens when you play a guy because of his name. His name was Ali Dia and his famous relation "was" FIFA World Player of the Year George Weah. It didn't go well.

A name is just a name. It's the skills that pay the bills. Family members seem to have roughly similar talents for roughly similar professions (Jack and Bobby Charlton's mother, Cissie Milburn, was sister to the other Milburns - she was no footballer, but Jackie Milburn and her two sons were three of the greatest). Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[hampus_dh]

To say that some one is "special" is not the same as them being a freak of nature.

Really? Then what do the word "special" mean?

Average? slightly above average?

Or plain alien, freak of nature otherwise nobody would have called them special in the first place.

 

[Rich S]

Please pick three racing championships from this year (your choice as to which ones) and prove this.


Scaff

Indy Racing League:

Marco Andretti (grandson of Mario, son of Michael.)
Graham Rahal (Rahal family)
Davey Hamilton (Brothers all raced in top series')
Charlie Kimball (father designed F1 cars and Indy cars)
Ed Carpenter (stepson of the IRL founder Tony George)
-
Thats 1/4th the drivers in the series atleast

Nascar Sprint Cup (there's more, I just dont have all day):

Dale Earnhardt JR (Son of Dale Earnhardt)
Bobby Labonte (Terry Labonte)
Todd Bodine (Bodine family)
Kenny Wallace (wallace family)
Rusty Wallace
Steve Wallace
Derick Cope (cope family)
Jeff Green (david Green brother)
Jeff Burton (ward Burton)
Borris Said (David Said)
Michael Waltrip (Darrel Waltrip)
Hermie Sadler (Elliot Sadler)
Reed Sorenson (Scott Sorenson)
Brian Keselowski (family)
David Keselowski
Kurt Busch
Kyle Bush
Bill Elliot (his son will soon be a top Nascar driver)
Johnny Sauter (david Sauter)

I will pick another series when I have the time. I cant sit on here all day and do this.

 

[TheCracker]

Ooopps, you must have forgot to type the important bit:

Once done please then explain in detail exactly why this got them into the championship in question based on a lack of talent and fitness (which is the claim you have been making), kep in mind that in regard to Motorsport at almost any professional level you need a licence of some form, so I would like an explanation as to how privelage overcame the need to demonstrate ability (as I have again raised this point before and had it ignored).

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I think we need to settle this like sim racers.

 

[Scaff]

Indy Racing League:

Marco Andretti (grandson of Mario, son of Michael.)
Graham Rahal (Rahal family)
Davey Hamilton (Brothers all raced in top series')
Charlie Kimball (father designed F1 cars and Indy cars)
Ed Carpenter (stepson of the IRL founder Tony George)
-
Thats 1/4th the drivers in the series atleast

No its not.

The IRL list 46 drivers for the 2011 season...

http://www.indycar.com/drivers/


...which is 10% not 25% 'at least' and not a huge percentage.

Now please answer the second part of my question in regard to these drivers. In other words why this family connection means they get an automatic pass to the top tier, and just for fun why this is different to the family connections in other sports (that you seem to deem worthy in terms of ability and fitness).


Oh and while you are at it, I believe you still owe me an answer to a question from yesterday, you failed to answer it then, instead throwing me a question. I was respectful enough to answer yours, now please reciprocate.


Scaff

 

[Northstar]

Indy Racing League:

Marco Andretti (grandson of Mario, son of Michael.)
Graham Rahal (Rahal family)
Davey Hamilton (Brothers all raced in top series')
Charlie Kimball (father designed F1 cars and Indy cars)
Ed Carpenter (stepson of the IRL founder Tony George)

What is your point exactly?

Of those you listed Andretti is the only driver that is driving for their families team, the rest have earned their seat just like every other driver.

Thats 1/4th the drivers in the series atleast

48 drivers competed in a race sometime in 2011, while I'm no mathematician, I'm fairly sure 5/48 isn't 1/4.

Dale Earnhardt JR (Son of Dale Earnhardt)

Started at his dads team, has won 18 races, currently races for Hendrick, which is not his dad's team.

Bobby Labonte (Terry Labonte)

Brothers that competed at the same time, both won championships.

Todd Bodine (Bodine family)

2 time truck series champion, never has done much in Cup though. Don't think he ever drove for a family team.

Kenny Wallace (wallace family)

Moderately talented driver, never raced for the family team.

Rusty Wallace

55 Cup wins and a Cup title.

Steve Wallace

Hey, you finally got one.

Derick Cope (cope family)

Formed a team for his nieces, can see where you are getting at but Derrike has talent.

Jeff Green (david Green brother)

Same situation as the Labonte's only with Nationwide championships not Cup.

Jeff Burton (ward Burton)

Also the same, while neither have won a championship both have won many races.

Borris Said (David Said)

There is no "David Said", at least when it comes to racing.

Michael Waltrip (Darrel Waltrip)

Yet another case of them racing together.

Hermie Sadler (Elliot Sadler)

Same.

Reed Sorenson (Scott Sorenson)

Who?

Brian Keselowski (family)

Drives for his own team.

David Keselowski

Would you please stop making people up?

Other than Brad and Brian there was Bob(father of Brad and Brian) and Ron(Uncle). Neither owned NASCAR teams for them.

Kurt Busch

Has won a championship and a good amount of races, drives for Penske Racing.

Kyle Bush

Currently races with Kurt, has won a fair number of races and might win a championship if he get's his head out of his 🤬

Drives for Joe Gibbs and has his own team.

Bill Elliot (his son will soon be a top Nascar driver)

Whom is a Hendrick development driver, if he makes it it, it will not be because of who his dad is.

Johnny Sauter (david Sauter)

Seriously, you have to stop making people up.

There is a Jay and Tim Sauter, they are Johnny's brothers and have never driven for a family team in NASCAR.

 

[Rich S]

In other words why this family connection means they get an automatic pass to the top tier, and just for fun why this is different to the family connections in other sports

Scaff

The family connection is the same between all sports. It simply seems makes up a much larger percentage in motorsports. The larger percentage of close family connections amongst drivers than amongst players in a league may tell you that its easier to be successful. We do not have absolute statistics but I believe that the motor racing percentage of close family kin is much higher than in top level sports.

Family connections mean alot.....unless you do not love your family. Most people would choose a family member for employment before a stranger. Thats pretty darn natural & common sense. Do brothers & sons get an automatic pass? Its as close to one as you can get without giving them one.

 

[Seismica]

Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand, Anton Ferdinand. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League, two with full England caps (one captain), one with England U18, U20 and U21 caps. Les is Rio and Anton's Uncle (they're brothers). Les's son Aaron is a semi-professional footballer.

Gary and Phil Neville. Brothers, both professional footballers with full England caps (one captain), both having won multiple trophies for Manchester United. Their sister, Tracey, was an England netball player.

Ian Wright, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Bradley Wright-Phillips. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League - although Bradley only played there briefly, thriving in lower leagues - two with full England caps. Ian is Shaun's adopted father and Bradley's father, Shaun and Bradley being half-brothers.

Frank Lampard, Frank Lampard Junior, Harry Redknapp, Jamie Redknapp. Three full England internationals, all four professionals in the highest league (Division 1 for Frank and Harry, Premiership for Frank and Jamie) for West Ham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Frank is Frank Jr's father, Harry's brother-in-law and Jamie's uncle.

How about two of the biggest names in English football history - Jack and Sir Bobby Charlton? Both full England internationals, both World Cup winners, both professional footballers in the highest league and brothers. More than that, they're both related to Jack Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), George Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Jim Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Stan Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Chesterfield), Jackie Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Newcastle United and England). Now that is a dynasty.


The question is... what of it? Family members seem to have the same talents for the same sports regardless of the sport...



Uhhh, what?

Very good research 👍 Only, we have little proof or evidence as to whether this is because of genes, or if it is because of the environment they are born in to.

When I went to Football training as a kid, my parents took me and my brother. We were always about as good as eachother because we practiced just as much as eachother (perhaps he was slightly better due to the 2 year age gap, meaning more experience and physical development). Did we have talent? I don't know because everybody who I recognised as better at it than me played more often than me, and I was generally better than those who played less than me. I take the stance that environment is the more important factor, but I can't deny that genes play at least some part as they govern how your body develops physically.

 

[Northstar]

The family connection is the same between all sports. It simply seems makes up a much larger percentage in motorsports. The larger percentage of close family connections amongst drivers than amongst players in a league may tell you that its easier to be successful. We do not have absolute statistics but I believe that the motor racing percentage of close family kin is much higher than in top level sports.

Family connections mean alot.....unless you do not love your family. Most people would choose a family member for employment before a stranger. Thats pretty darn natural & common sense. Do brothers & sons get an automatic pass? Its as close to one as you can get without giving them one.

You haven't read Famine's or my post, have you?

 

[Rich S]

Hey, you finally got one.



Formed a team for his nieces, can see where you are getting at but Derrike has talent.



Same situation as the Labonte's only with Nationwide championships not Cup.
Also the same, while neither have won a championship both have won many races.

Drives for his own team.

Would you please stop making people up?

Other than Brad and Brian there was Bob(father of Brad and Brian) and Ron(Uncle). Neither owned NASCAR teams for them.

Seriously, you have to stop making people up.

There is a Jay and Tim Sauter, they are Johnny's brothers and have never driven for a family team in NASCAR.

I mean Brad Keselowski. You've basically just noted which names of people I got wrong and added in more family names that race professionally.

It doesnt at all go against my point that Nascar is a family sport with family members competing against one another.

 

[Northstar]

It doesnt at all go against my point that Nascar is a family sport with family members competing against one another.

They came up through the ranks together, that is like saying Eli Manning is only in the NFL because of his brother Peyton. Ironically enough, their father, Archie played for the Saints.

Every sport has their fair share of families, it's just that you notice it more in racing as it's focused on an individual not a team like most other major sports.

 

[Famine]

Very good research 👍

That was off the top of my head I'd have added Ron and Peter Springett too - Ron was an England international, and both were Sheffield Wednesday players, bizarrely swapping clubs in 1967 when Ron went from Wednesday to QPR and Peter went from QPR to Wednesday - but since I barely class Wednesday as professional football and I'm a Wednesday fan... Both were goalkeepers and that's a rare old talent (the only other family 'keepers I can think of are Peter and Kasper Schmeichel).

It does seem that "left turn ahead" is curiously interbred with regards to driving talent, but you still need to demonstrate the required skill (including the appropriate licence) to become part of the driving talent. Certain members are always that it's a very skillful discipline, so it seems rather odd that those same members are insisting that it's a very common skill and family members of team owners can walk into those teams...

 

[Rich S]

It does seem that "left turn ahead" is curiously interbred with regards to driving talent, but you still need to demonstrate the required skill (including the appropriate licence) to become part of the driving talent. Certain members are always that it's a very skillful discipline, so it seems rather odd that those same members are insisting that it's a very common skill and family members of team owners can walk into those teams...

There's skill involved but its learn-able skill. Its taught and passed down how to drive. And once you have the general "feel" for the car your so close to the speed its possible to go that even the most talented freak would not be far ahead, imo.

I believe there are very very talented drivers like Vettel for example, who can only go so fast because the limit simply wont allow for more. Its like somebody who can jump 18 feet in the air being stuck under a 9 foot ceiling.

There's some great minds that could do some crazy stuff when it comes to driving, if the cars allowed for it and there was some "dividers" in the races to separate ability levels. F1 has harder tracks, thats for sure. The cars are not the best skill determiners though.

 

[F1 fan]

Turning on your PS3 and log laps on GT5 is free and it´s 100% about skill so why are you not in Formula 1 now?

A mostly valid point, but it is evident that you have never paid an electricity bill before.

I see you're still ignoring Scaff's question. It may be a good idea to answer it now. 💡

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he still hasn't answered Scaff.

Its a fixed argument against me, regardless whether I'm right or not.

That's what happens when you base your arguements on nothing more than ignorance. You're not even willing to listen to the experiences other forum members have had. This is highly out of character.

And Nick Hamilton, Lewis' brother, is doing pretty hopelessly in a fairly junior formula (Clio Cup), despite having the financial backing of his brother and father, both of whom are pretty wealthy - a factor you seem to consider more important than talent.

To be fair, in this case, Nick does happen to suffer from cerebal palsy. While I am not a fan of "team Hamilton", it's not fair to expect him to perform like Lewis would.

Take a look at this Rich. Does this look like the aftereffects of a nice Sunday drive?



You said yourself, all a driver does is hit the apexes. It has recently become apparent that you have no racing experience, or any other experience with high g forces.



Does this look like something you'd be able to do? Is your neck even 25% as strong as his? You also seem oblivious to what the g forces do to your body in a corner. You'd be lucky to get within 10 seconds of Webber's time. As would anyone here.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Very good research 👍 Only, we have little proof or evidence as to whether this is because of genes, or if it is because of the environment they are born in to.

When I went to Football training as a kid, my parents took me and my brother. We were always about as good as eachother because we practiced just as much as eachother (perhaps he was slightly better due to the 2 year age gap, meaning more experience and physical development). Did we have talent? I don't know because everybody who I recognised as better at it than me played more often than me, and I was generally better than those who played less than me. I take the stance that environment is the more important factor, but I can't deny that genes play at least some part as they govern how your body develops physically.

The Lacombe's are very fast in GT5 to prove your point of it might being the environment and maybe genes.

 

[Scaff]

The family connection is the same between all sports. It simply seems makes up a much larger percentage in motorsports. The larger percentage of close family connections amongst drivers than amongst players in a league may tell you that its easier to be successful. We do not have absolute statistics but I believe that the motor racing percentage of close family kin is much higher than in top level sports.

Your belief is a long way from the fact you were originally presenting this as, and as yet you have not demonstrated that its any different to numerous other sports, and Famine certainly seems to be demonstrating that Football has motorsport pretty well beat in this regard.

Family connections mean alot.....unless you do not love your family. Most people would choose a family member for employment before a stranger. Thats pretty darn natural & common sense. Do brothers & sons get an automatic pass? Its as close to one as you can get without giving them one.

All that means is that you have more of an opportunity to try your hand (and that factor applies to family connections in every sport), what it doesn't do is get you a super licence in F1 for example.

What we have here is a vaguely interested factor, but as yet you have not proven how it has a bearing on the points you made in your opening post.


I also am now getting rather tired of waiting for an answer to the question I posed yesterday, its a simple yes/no so I fail to see what the problem is (not to mention the various other counters I have made and you have ignored).

Please answer it in your next post.


Scaff

 

[Famine]

You only have to look at how the different F1 drivers approach things to see that F1 isn't a single skill. Moreover, the cars are almost infinitely adjustable to driver preferences - seeing world champion drivers remarking that the car has a little too much understeer here, or a bit less grip there, or complaining about a little vibration in certain parts of the track alone will tell you that there is an art to this kind of knife's edge driving and precious few artists skilled enough to achieve it regularly and consistently. Names aren't enough - long apprenticeships in lower formulae to showcase your skills (and gain the required experience for a Super licence) are, whether you're Damon Hill (world champion son of a world champion), Jacques Villeneuve (world champion son of a legend), Bruno Senna (nephew of a world champion), Nico Rosberg (son of a world champion) or Pastor Maldonado (idiot).

 

[hampus_dh]

A mostly valid point, but it is evident that you have never paid an electricity bill before.

Oh you can believe that sir Pay quarterly in fact.

 

[F1 fan]

Jacques Villeneuve (world champion son of a world champion),

Regardless of his abilities and the way his name is now legendary, Gilles was never a world champion. He was good enough, but never was. Same goes for Stirling Moss.

Oh you can believe that sir Pay quarterly in fact.

Well in that case, would you like to pay mine?

 

[hampus_dh]

Well in that case, would you like to pay mine?

Sure no problem! All i need is your bank account and the pin code

Don´t be worried if there are more money missing then what the company wanted, i´ll be on my way to Thailand so you won´t find me anyways

 

[Sohvakettu]

The family part belongs to the blind luck part of my last post I think. What it gives you is a nurturing surrounding and possibly a very good mentor. There is a downside too though. Professional relationship to your family members might get rough. In case of parents they might not always be ready to make their children go through the possible hardships related to the sport and so might not be as demanding as they need for their protege to get to the needed level. I suspect that in many cases the family just provides outside mentors and such but even that is helping.

 

[Famine]

Regardless of his abilities and the way his name is now legendary, Gilles was never a world champion. He was good enough, but never was. Same goes for Stirling Moss.

Copypastefail of win

 

[vfrmaverick]

Millions of kids in the USA play baseball. A handful of wealthy kids try go karting.

Your completely ignorant to the field of genetics.

I want to see Dale Earnhardt Junior or David Coulthard go online and compete in the time trials in the game.

Because I beat Coulthard's time handily. As did a couple hundred others. I wont say where I finished because I dont need Hampus stalking me everywhere I go. I was top 50.

Considering a doctor taught me about genetics Ill say otherwise. Also all the kids I know that are into karting are not wealthy by any chance of the word, middle class yes, but not wealthy. Their families give up a lot to give their kids the oportunity to see if they have what it takes to be a racer. And most fail at this eventually.

Ohh you want to see that? I got something better for you

Dale JR and many other drivers are known to go through iracing servers in their off time, why dont you give that a shot then come back here and proove us all wrong.

 

[Rich S]

Does this look like something you'd be able to do? Is your neck even 25% as strong as his? You also seem oblivious to what the g forces do to your body in a corner. You'd be lucky to get within 10 seconds of Webber's time. As would anyone here.

It is impressive what F1 drivers do no doubt. I enjoy watching F1, but they are worshiped to no end. Anybody who criticizes it (Me) is "taken out back" for lashings.

I dont know if I will be able to afford i racing in the near future, but I would enjoy racing Dale JR in GT5, and I would beat him simply because its my thing, its my hobby to race on GT5. Its his job to race in real life, and he does very well at that. He would certainly beat me in a real car. (after a while I'd get better. )

Are F1 racers any more talented than elite fighter pilots (Blue angels, Thunderbirds) whom are paid "every day" wages? I refuse to believe it.

 

[hampus_dh]

Back in the day scientists started to wonder if F1 drivers had a death wish or was just plain crazy.

It turned out that F1 drivers are just as mentally stable as any Jet fighter pilot.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It is impressive what F1 drivers do no doubt. I enjoy watching F1, but they are worshiped to no end. Anybody who criticizes it (Me) is "taken out back" for lashings.

I dont know if I will be able to afford i racing in the near future, but I would enjoy racing Dale JR in GT5, and I would beat him simply because its my thing, its my hobby to race on GT5. Its his job to race in real life, and he does very well at that. He would certainly beat me in a real car. (after a while I'd get better. )

Are F1 racers any more talented than elite fighter pilots (Blue angels, Thunderbirds) whom are paid "every day" wages? I refuse to believe it.

If you raced against F1 drivers on GT5, I'm sure they have a very high chance of beating you and by a big margin.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

If you raced against F1 drivers on GT5, I'm sure they have a very high chance of beating you and by a big margin.

My money is on Rich.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

My money is on Rich.

Don't really know how fast he is but he would need to be Div 1 Gold material to stand a chance.

 

[The Outlaw]

The F1 car in gt5 is a joke anyway, in terms of realism and difficulty to drive. I'd thoroughly enjoy seeing Rich try to take on the elite (Huttu, Neimenen, etc.) in iRacing using the FW31 F1 car Maybe then he will understand and appreciate just how talented & skilled drivers are at the highest level.