How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[Rich S]

I should have played baseball then cause im hispanic, see how many hispanics dominate baseball? Its gotta be in my GENETICS. Im sure if I pick a bat up Ill just hit home runs all day long.


Do you now see how stupid you sound? I know many people with money laying around who take their high performance cars on trackdays frequently. They all had the same attitude as you until they went out and actually tried driving on a track, let alone racing others. I recomend before you make another post here to go to your local track and drive there.

Millions of kids in the USA play baseball. A handful of wealthy kids try go karting.

Your completely ignorant to the field of genetics.

Again, turn on GT5 and beat the world records then. It´s basically free and it´s 100% about skill not money. You will probably dodge this part of my post..

I want to see Dale Earnhardt Junior or David Coulthard go online and compete in the time trials in the game.

Because I beat Coulthard's time handily. As did a couple hundred others. I wont say where I finished because I dont need Hampus stalking me everywhere I go. I was top 50.

 

[Scaff]

Pure athletic endeavers are not just harder,

A point you are still yet to prove.

but more competitive because there's MORE PEOPLE COMPETING.

Again a point you have failed to yet prove.


These are easy claims to make, however some degree of independent proof would be nice to see (and as evidence of the fitness levels required in F1 have been provided I would like to see a counterpoint to this). As would an answer to my question.

 

[Rich S]

A point you are still yet to prove.



Again a point you have failed to yet prove.


These are easy claims to make, however some degree of independent proof would be nice to see (and as evidence of the fitness levels required in F1 have been provided I would like to see a counterpoint to this). As would an answer to my question.

I used Paul Tracy as my counter point that a reasonably high fitness level is required. Paul Tracy would not make it through GT Academy's fitness tests without being significantly slimmer than he was in his hey day winning his CART races.

The average Nascar driver is not physically fit. Jimmy Spencer could not run up a flight of steps.

These are facts.....whether they penetrate your thick skull or not I dont know.

 

[Scaff]

I want to see Dale Earnhardt Junior or David Coulthard go online and compete in the time trials in the game.

Because I beat Coulthard's time handily. As did a couple hundred others. I wont say where I finished because I dont need Hampus stalking me everywhere I go. I was top 50.

As GT5 (and any other sim you care to mention) is not a 100% accurate simulation of all the factors involved in racing this is a totally moot point. What a racing driver can do in a game has no bearing on how the perform in reality, the fitness level they have or the skill required.

I once again ask what experience you have in driving on track to make this link?

I used Paul Tracy as my counter point that a reasonably high fitness level is required. Paul Tracy would not make it through GT Academy's fitness tests without being significantly slimmer than he was in his hey day winning his CART races.

Citation required

The average Nascar driver is not physically fit. Jimmy Spencer could not run up a flight of steps.

Citation required

These are fact.....whether they penetrate your thick skull or not I dont know.

Infraction issued.

Scaff

 

[Blitz24]

Where is this going? Hasn't it already been proven that people who are Professionals in a given sport will 99 times out of 100 beat anyone who is an "average joe"? This is no different in any type of motorsport. Bragging that you can place top 50 in a video game and then using that to back up your point that you are better than David Coulthard, Mark Webber, or any driver for that matter is completely foolish.

 

[TheCracker]

I used Paul Tracy as my counter point that a reasonably high fitness level is required. Paul Tracy would not make it through GT Academy's fitness tests without being significantly slimmer than he was in his hey day winning his CART races.

The average Nascar driver is not physically fit. Jimmy Spencer could not run up a flight of steps.

These are facts.....whether they penetrate your thick skull or not I dont know.

Sorry, but this is total bollocks. Paul Tracy is a solid-sized guy, but he's far from fat or overweight. There's nothing to say he's not physically fit.

Jimmy Spencer is not an average Nascar driver.

These are not facts by any stretch of the imagination. They're your opinions, seemingly based on very little evidence.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Millions of kids in the USA play baseball. A handful of wealthy kids try go karting.

Your completely ignorant to the field of genetics.

I want to see Dale Earnhardt Junior or David Coulthard go online and compete in the time trials in the game.

Because I beat Coulthard's time handily. As did a couple hundred others. I wont say where I finished because I dont need Hampus stalking me everywhere I go. I was top 50.

Like I said before, if you got a PC to play it, buy Ferrari Virtual Academy and then try and beat any of the 3 F1 drivers. I was in the top 15 in that SLS event but I don't think I'm anywhere near as good as an F1 driver in the virtual world let alone reality.

Where is this going? Hasn't it already been proven that people who are Professionals in a given sport will 99 times out of 100 beat anyone who is an "average joe"? This is no different in any type of motorsport. Bragging that you can place top 50 in a video game and then using that to back up your point that you are better than David Coulthard, Mark Webber, or any driver for that matter is completely foolish.

Coulthard set his time in damp conditions in the real world too and only really had one shot at doing a fast lap.

 

[Rich S]

Well since I'm arguing the "super moderator" I will say, its pointless. I was asked by someone to compete in online TTs (I've done couple of them) and beaten the real life times. Then I was told "oh it doesnt mean anything because its not 100% accurate."

Its a fixed argument against me, regardless whether I'm right or not.

 

[Tuck !]

Millions of kids in the USA play baseball. A handful of wealthy kids try go karting.

Your completely ignorant to the field of genetics.

I want to see Dale Earnhardt Junior or David Coulthard go online and compete in the time trials in the game.

Because I beat Coulthard's time handily. As did a couple hundred others. I wont say where I finished because I dont need Hampus stalking me everywhere I go. I was top 50.

So what you're saying is that talent is needed for people to succeed in baseball, and talent isn't needed to succeed in racing?! While it is true that money is needed to get into motorsports, you cannot deny the amount of talent the racers have to to be that fast and consistent. When you're in such a quick machine, it is considered as talent if you can manage 0.5 seconds faster than others in the same machine is it not?

Furthermore comparing a game to real life and saying you can do it too is as ridiculous as it can get. The game will never have real world physics and mechanics, it will not be the same as real world. Go karting in the real world and go karting in game is a heaven and earth difference...

 

[homeforsummer]

A handful of wealthy kids try go karting.

Costs about £40 in the UK to pop along to a kart circuit and try and beat their record lap time. Can't believe it's that much more in the U.S.

Since it's not that expensive to have a go, and you clearly think it's so easy, how about popping along to your local circuit and bringing us some proof back when you beat their lap record?

 

[Famine]

Well since I'm arguing the "super moderator" I will say, its pointless.

Hardly. You've been repeatedly asked to present data to support your arguments and chose to present more opinions and an insult. Had you managed to post without insulting, no-one's staff status would have been relevant.

Its a fixed argument against me, regardless whether I'm right or not.

So long as you're using your opinion to back up your opinion, you're going to be wrong whether or not there's any truth in what you say. You're fixing the argument against yourself...

 

[PAPPACLART]

I think there are many very quick drivers out there, some that have never been on a track, and some even that have not driven a car.

For most fast drivers ouththere that fit the above, with a little practice and time, many could turn some very quick times around a track.

My GF went Go Karting with her work. She was 2nd fastest, and only beaten by a Semi Pro Go Kart guy (her boss), who qualified 1 second faster then she did, on a 800M track.

A little time before that, I went Go Karting with my GF, it was just her and I on track, I beat her pretty easy.

Clearly, at least in terms of speed, being a good Sim racer in most cases translates to being fast in real life.

I wish I had the chance to race, I know I am a quick motocycle rider, but never had the chance to prove myself.

 

[Rich S]

Like I said before, if you got a PC to play it, buy Ferrari Virtual Academy and then try and beat any of the 3 F1 drivers. I was in the top 15 in that SLS event but I don't think I'm anywhere near as good as an F1 driver in the virtual world let alone reality.

I think its worth a try, Maybe I'll give that game a shot.

You guys, talent is required to succeed in car racing; but in my opinion not to the same level as in conventional sports.

Examples are not opinions. Marco Andretti is an example of a dynasty's offspring succeeding in racing through a legendary family backround. I've used alot of examples, to call those opinions is lying & cheating at a very unimportant debate that bars little importance to your every day lives.

The forum is not real life, its just a place to talk.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've used alot of examples, to call those opinions is lying & cheating at a very unimportant debate that bars little importance to your every day lives.

The forum is not real life, its just a place to talk.

And yet you seem intent on spouting the same drivel every time someone replies to you? If it's so unimportant then you're free to carry on your daily business without input in this thread.

Examples are not opinions. Marco Andretti is an example of a dynasty's offspring succeeding in racing through a legendary family backround.

And Nick Hamilton, Lewis' brother, is doing pretty hopelessly in a fairly junior formula (Clio Cup), despite having the financial backing of his brother and father, both of whom are pretty wealthy - a factor you seem to consider more important than talent.

For every arbitrary example of this dynasty crap you keep coming up with, there's an equally relevant example for it not working.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I think its worth a try, Maybe I'll give that game a shot.

You guys, talent is required to succeed in car racing; but in my opinion not to the same level as in conventional sports.

Examples are not opinions. Marco Andretti is an example of a dynasty's offspring succeeding in racing through a legendary family backround. I've used alot of examples, to call those opinions is lying & cheating at a very unimportant debate that bars little importance to your every day lives.

The forum is not real life, its just a place to talk.

You will understand how talented these guys are if you do get it.

It is easier to succeed in football than it is say F1. There are many top flight teams to get a place in. F1 there is only 24 seats and maybe millions trying to climb up the F1 ladder fail. Remember only 24 drivers get the chance to drive in it and only about 6 now have a chance of winning a championship really. I personally think being successful in top tier motorsport is probably one of the hardest things to achieve due to the competition for places and also it being hard to stay in the sport due to the money required.

 

[Tuck !]

I think it would be better if you take the effort to try beating the go kart times instead, a computer software is still just a software it cannot truly reflect real life.

I find that in all sports and everything in life you can be good in it. But to be the best you actually have to be special and of course, must be given the opportunity.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I think it would be better if you take the effort to try beating the go kart times instead, a computer software is still just a software it cannot truly reflect real life.

I find that in all sports and everything in life you can be good in it. But to be the best you actually have to be special and of course, must be given the opportunity.

The Ferrari drivers are very fast in that simulator. I would be surprised if Rich S could beat their times or maybe even get within a second of them in say 30 laps.

 

[hampus_dh]

Can´t we all just buy this guy a "Try an F1 for a day" -package so he will realise that he won´t be anywhere near any F1 driver time-wise?

It should atleast make him slightly more humble towards the F1 drivers who dedicated their lifes to be the best they can.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Can´t we all just buy this guy a "Try an F1 for a day" -package so he will realise that he won´t be anywhere near any F1 driver time-wise?

It should atleast make him slightly more humble towards the F1 drivers who dedicated their lifes to be the best they can.

I think that Ferrari Virtual Academy thing will be humbling enough. If he jumps to the top then maybe he is a hidden talent and will beat an F1 drivers time in a short practice session if he gets fit enough .

 

[Rich S]

I find that in all sports and everything in life you can be good in it. But to be the best you actually have to be special and of course, must be given the opportunity.

Thats true. I'm willing to believe that. But to say the "pros" in motor racing are "aliens" or freaks of nature is not right.

Maybe at some point I'll try karting, although I dont even know where to start. I like the Ferrari academy, sounds kind of cool.

I'm not a hero worshipper.... I have no real idol. I've never looked up to anyone else. If you dont know someone's worst traits than why hero worship them?

Somebody can be successful and be a monster. Thats how the world is. This thread I guess represents that belief that I have, and I'm very very stubborn, even when a dozen or more disagree with me; and get to the point that they want to discipline me for my views on the matter.

 

[hampus_dh]

I find that in all sports and everything in life you can be good in it. But to be the best you actually have to be special and of course, must be given the opportunity.

Thats true. I'm willing to believe that. But to say the "pros" in motor racing are "aliens" or freaks of nature is not right.

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence.

 

[Scaff]

You guys, talent is required to succeed in car racing; but in my opinion not to the same level as in conventional sports.

An as an opinion that's fine, the majority of opinions here disagree with you and that's also fine. However presenting that as fact without any supporting evidence is the problem.

Examples are not opinions. Marco Andretti is an example of a dynasty's offspring succeeding in racing through a legendary family backround. I've used alot of examples, to call those opinions is lying & cheating at a very unimportant debate that bars little importance to your every day lives.

I have already addressed this and you have seen fit to ignore it, so here we go again...

Are a very rare exception, for each one of these how many drivers exists who's sons, daughters, mothers and fathers were not successful racing drivers? More people compete at the top tier of motorsport who are not from racing dynasties that those who do. Add into that the rather clear fact that most of these 'dynasties' do not continually dominate and I don't see a valid point being made here at all.

....you are using a very small minority to try and force a point as fact for the entirety of motorport.

In addition no one has "call those opinions is lying & cheating" so please do not suggest such a thing has taken place. To date only one person has been abusive in this thread.

The forum is not real life, its just a place to talk.

Unless I am currently residing in the Matrix in my opinion the forum is very much in the real world, and it is just a place to talk. As such you would do well to take you own advise and not get abusive when others disagree with you.


Scaff

 

[Famine]

You guys, talent is required to succeed in car racing; but in my opinion not to the same level as in conventional sports.

Examples are not opinions. Marco Andretti is an example of a dynasty's offspring succeeding in racing through a legendary family backround.

Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand, Anton Ferdinand. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League, two with full England caps (one captain), one with England U18, U20 and U21 caps. Les is Rio and Anton's Uncle (they're brothers). Les's son Aaron is a semi-professional footballer.

Gary and Phil Neville. Brothers, both professional footballers with full England caps (one captain), both having won multiple trophies for Manchester United. Their sister, Tracey, was an England netball player.

Ian Wright, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Bradley Wright-Phillips. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League - although Bradley only played there briefly, thriving in lower leagues - two with full England caps. Ian is Shaun's adopted father and Bradley's father, Shaun and Bradley being half-brothers.

Frank Lampard, Frank Lampard Junior, Harry Redknapp, Jamie Redknapp. Three full England internationals, all four professionals in the highest league (Division 1 for Frank and Harry, Premiership for Frank and Jamie) for West Ham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Frank is Frank Jr's father, Harry's brother-in-law and Jamie's uncle.

How about two of the biggest names in English football history - Jack and Sir Bobby Charlton? Both full England internationals, both World Cup winners, both professional footballers in the highest league and brothers. More than that, they're both related to Jack Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), George Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Jim Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Stan Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Chesterfield), Jackie Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Newcastle United and England). Now that is a dynasty.


The question is... what of it? Family members seem to have the same talents for the same sports regardless of the sport...

I've used alot of examples, to call those opinions is lying & cheating at a very unimportant debate that bars little importance to your every day lives.

The forum is not real life, its just a place to talk.

Uhhh, what?

 

[Scaff]

Oh I just wanted to address a point from your opening post, I intended to post this yesterday but it slipped my mind...

Only a select few kids will ever get to step foot in a racing kart.

...because this is totally untrue.

The BSKC has grown quickly. In 2011, it was contested by 450 teams (1350 drivers) from over 175 schools from all over the UK

All karts, race suits and safety helmets are provided - you do not need a kart to compete!

Source - http://www.bskc.co.uk/

Now that is a long way from a 'select few' and keep in mind this is just one scheme running in the UK alone.

My local Kart track runs kids training sessions for £30 a session and all kit provided, while not the cheapest sport to get involved in, its still far from the elite only scenario you are describing (and a damn sight cheaper than golf - one of your own examples of an accessible sport).


Scaff

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Thats true. I'm willing to believe that. But to say the "pros" in motor racing are "aliens" or freaks of nature is not right.

Rich...I always did say you drive like an alien and freak of nature. My guess, just for fun...if you had the resources you would do well in F1.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

There is some connection in family ties in any sport, as Famine has listed above. The main reason for this is first hand experience that can be passed down.

Football first, and I hear often that Players children sign contracts with clubs when VERY young. Romeo Beckham (I think it is? One or more of his kids anyway...) has signed up with Newcastle already. Reason - you can be damn sure that when he goes for a kick about with daddy at the park, he is going to be given decent advice and help with his game. David will probably want him playing in a team as well and advising with that as well. All in all, that kid will have a very good mentor training him in the first crucial years of being a top athlete / sports player.

I met Rubens Barrichello earlier this year at a Q+A, and he was asked about his kids getting into motorsport. He has 2 sons, Eduardo (eldest) and Fernando. He said Eduardo will not go into motorsport but Fernando will. That isn't favouritism, or a money issue because he can only back one of them. Its because when Eduardo first drove a go-kart he didn't give it everything. When he asked him why, his response was "because you didn't tell me to". Fernando however, showed no fear and instead he got everything he could out of that go-kart. It was clear that Fernando had enjoyed the chance, whilst Eduardo had accepted the chance.

Of all those names in racing, although partially to do with fathers / uncles reputation or contacts from when they drove, there is also something else as well. That push to be there themselves, and mostly by their own merit. You can never just accept a drive in NASCAR, or demand you drive a F1 car because you're dad did....

 

[Rich S]

You just contradicted yourself in one sentence.

To say that some one is "special" is not the same as them being a freak of nature.

Family ties make up a huge percentage of motor racing participants. Having a family member in a pro sports league seems to be more rare. We dont know percentages because such data has not been collected. Were the only ones talking about it.

Motor racing families have the money from the get go. Now that doesnt mean well of people are bad; for the most part I like anyone who's nice to me. I do not hate race car drivers, I simply say that it is a close nit circle of people rather than a broad spectrum of available talent.

Sports families are facing stiffer competition, therefore not everyone in the family can race. Yes this is an opinion (there's no statistics to prove it) but the empirical evidence looks to confirm it.

Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand, Anton Ferdinand. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League, two with full England caps (one captain), one with England U18, U20 and U21 caps. Les is Rio and Anton's Uncle (they're brothers). Les's son Aaron is a semi-professional footballer.

Gary and Phil Neville. Brothers, both professional footballers with full England caps (one captain), both having won multiple trophies for Manchester United. Their sister, Tracey, was an England netball player.

Ian Wright, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Bradley Wright-Phillips. All three professional footballers in the English Premier League - although Bradley only played there briefly, thriving in lower leagues - two with full England caps. Ian is Shaun's adopted father and Bradley's father, Shaun and Bradley being half-brothers.

Frank Lampard, Frank Lampard Junior, Harry Redknapp, Jamie Redknapp. Three full England internationals, all four professionals in the highest league (Division 1 for Frank and Harry, Premiership for Frank and Jamie) for West Ham, Liverpool and Chelsea. Frank is Frank Jr's father, Harry's brother-in-law and Jamie's uncle.

How about two of the biggest names in English football history - Jack and Sir Bobby Charlton? Both full England internationals, both World Cup winners, both professional footballers in the highest league and brothers. More than that, they're both related to Jack Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), George Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Jim Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Stan Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Chesterfield), Jackie Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Newcastle United and England). Now that is a dynasty.


The question is... what of it? Family members seem to have the same talents for the same sports regardless of the sport...



Uhhh, what?

The Bodines, The Allisons, The 2 Bellof's, The Bianchi's, The Brabham's, the Cheevers, the 2 Franchitti's, The 2 Gordon families, the labonte's, The Earnhardts, the 2 Schumacher's who both raced F1 at the same time, the Truex brothers in Nascar, The Simmon's brothers in Indy car, A.J. Foyt IV, The Brazillion Sperafico family....one who died.

The Jarett's, the Waltrips, etc..... Thats more than you listed, if I included a line of text for each it would be a damn long post.

 

[Scaff]

Family ties make up a huge percentage of motor racing participants.

Please pick three racing championships from this year (your choice as to which ones) and prove this.

Once done please then explain in detail exactly why this got them into the championship in question based on a lack of talent and fitness (which is the claim you have been making), kep in mind that in regard to Motorsport at almost any professional level you need a licence of some form, so I would like an explanation as to how privelage overcame the need to demonstrate ability (as I have again raised this point before and had it ignored).


Scaff

 

[Famine]

Family ties make up a huge percentage of motor racing participants. Having a family member in a pro sports league seems to be more rare. We dont know percentages because such data has not been collected. Were the only ones talking about it.

Motor racing families have the money from the get go. Now that doesnt mean well of people are bad; for the most part I like anyone who's nice to me. I do not hate race car drivers, I simply say that it is a close nit circle of people rather than a broad spectrum of available talent.

Sports families are facing stiffer competition, therefore not everyone in the family can race. Yes this is an opinion (there's no statistics to prove it) but the empirical evidence looks to confirm it.

The Bodines, The Allisons, The 2 Bellof's, The Bianchi's, The Brabham's, the Cheevers, the 2 Franchitti's, The 2 Gordon families, the labonte's, The Earnhardts, the 2 Schumacher's who both raced F1 at the same time, the Truex brothers in Nascar, The Simmon's brothers in Indy car, A.J. Foyt IV, The Brazillion Sperafico family, etc, etc, etc.

Try this, which is just families with two members who've played professional football. It's quite a list, and it doesn't include families where one was a professional footballer and others played other sports. There's some huge names in there (the Charltons/Milburns, the Allens, the Lampards/Redknapps and the Ferdinands as above).

Try Second Generation MLB players too. Or NHL families...

The point remains:

Family members seem to have the same talents for the same sports regardless of the sport...

 

[daan]

The Bodines, The Allisons, The 2 Bellof's, The Bianchi's, The Brabham's, the Cheevers, the 2 Franchitti's, The 2 Gordon families, the labonte's, The Earnhardts, the 2 Schumacher's who both raced F1 at the same time, the Truex brothers in Nascar, The Simmon's brothers in Indy car, A.J. Foyt IV, The Brazillion Sperafico family....one who died.

The Jarett's, the Waltrips, etc..... Thats more than you listed, if I included a line of text for each it would be a damn long post.

You forgot the Hills (Graham and Damon), Sennas (Ayrton and Bruno), Stewarts (Jimmy, Jackie and Paul) and the Brundles (Martin and Alex). Anyway, all it does is open a few more doors as you've got a "name" but you still need talent.

But anyway, what does all this have to with you being within half a second of Webber after 30 laps in the RB7? And you still haven't answered Scaff's question...