How "Special" are PRO race Drivers?

[hampus_dh]

My money is on Rich.

I´ll double that and put in on a random Top 10 guy in iRacing.

EDIT: And just to continue the talk from Rich S, these are the words from three simracers (random guys) that got to test a proper simulator used by the F1 teams aswell as GP2 teams.

So still a simulator and not reality,

“It was a totally fantastic experience. It is totally different from what I feel at home,” Joe commented. “The forces you feel through the wheel and the mental concentration is another step. I’m used to doing a 90 minute race every Thursday night. But even doing a 10 lap run around Silverstone in a GP2 car, I couldn’t believe how mentally tiring it was. I was just thinking ‘Don’t make a mistake!’

10 laps...In a GP2 car....On a simulator...

But getting within 0.5s from Webber in a real F1 car in 30 laps should be a piece of cake no doubt..

 

[Sach]

Are F1 racers any more talented than elite fighter pilots (Blue angels, Thunderbirds) whom are paid "every day" wages? I refuse to believe it.

Wages don't have anything to do with it. F1 drivers make more money because they are responsible for generating more money, simple.

And this statement doesn't really have anything to do with pro drivers. Why compare fighter pilots to drivers? Can a statement about a fighter jet pilot really suffice to show that a pro driver isn't 'special' or talented at what they do?

 

[Small_Fryz]

I´ll double that and put in on a random Top 10 guy in iRacing.

EDIT: And just to continue the talk from Rich S, these are the words from three simracers (random guys) that got to test a proper simulator used by the F1 teams aswell as GP2 teams.

So still a simulator and not reality,

10 laps...In a GP2 car....On a simulator...

But getting within 0.5s from Webber in a real F1 car in 30 laps should be a piece of cake no doubt..

As a driver who has raced against guys from the top tier iracing championship plus raced with academy finalistist in gt5 I just want to back this up. I'm a quick driver who has been driving for years but no amount of practise will allow me get near those top Iracing aliens, let alone doing it for real. It's easy to get to a certain level but to truly exceed and be amongst the best 20 in the world is something else. Just like everything else in life...

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I´ll double that and put in on a random Top 10 guy in iRacing.

EDIT: And just to continue the talk from Rich S, these are the words from three simracers (random guys) that got to test a proper simulator used by the F1 teams aswell as GP2 teams.

So still a simulator and not reality,



10 laps...In a GP2 car....On a simulator...

But getting within 0.5s from Webber in a real F1 car in 30 laps should be a piece of cake no doubt..

I think that place uses what you called in another thread "Crapfactor" .

As a driver who has raced against guys from the top tier iracing championship plus raced with academy finalistist in gt5 I just want to back this up. I'm a quick driver who has been driving for years but no amount of practise will allow me get near those top Iracing aliens, let alone doing it for real. It's easy to get to a certain level but to truly exceed and be amongst the best 20 in the world is something else. Just like everything else in life...

I found that too generally. Like in GT for example, Arnaud has yet to be defeated in GT Academy Time Trial Rankings and he is insanely fast on other sim games too. It will take insane amount of practice to get to within 2 tenths of him. His raw pace is probably a lot faster than my potential limit.

Alonso in F1 struggled to beat Hamilton at will in 2007 after winning two back to back championships. It is hard to find speed. The footwork and steering of top tier racing drivers is immaculate, they make it look so easy when it is quite a very hard thing to even in the virtual world. General conclusion, it takes someone very special and with obviously some luck to get to top tier of any sport.

 

[homeforsummer]

How about two of the biggest names in English football history - Jack and Sir Bobby Charlton? Both full England internationals, both World Cup winners, both professional footballers in the highest league and brothers. More than that, they're both related to Jack Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), George Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Jim Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Leeds United), Stan Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Chesterfield), Jackie Milburn (Uncle; professional footballer, Newcastle United and England). Now that is a dynasty.

Fun fact: I'm related to the Charltons and Milburns through my gran. And Paul Scholes is my aunt's cousin.

Incidentally, I'm a hopeless footballer.

 

[Azuremen]

Rich S, you are just refusing to take into account some people simply have natural talent. Yes, others might be able to learn to be near that good, but I'll go off into a rather tangential but still related field - StarCraft.

There are players who have played thousands of games who are still in the lower levels of play, and even those that have climbed ranks are still ridiculously inferior to top level players, some of which have only done this for a year or two. I myself play in the top 95% of players, I have over a thousand games played, but I know people who've played less than 100 games who will destroy me because that just get it[/it].

Back to motorsports, I was putting down competitive times at local autocross events with zero experience. Some people had been out there for years and couldn't get the hang of how to push a car without over doing it. I had never had any interest, what so ever, in driving before I was 16. I didn't care about motorsports till I was around 17 years old, so it wasn't like I was raised to drive or even taught theory. My dad didn't care about it much either.

Some people just get things, others do not. The people who perform at the absolute top tier of anything are people that get it and often were given the opportunity to practice it at a young age. This is the case with most things that require the type of precision found in any athletic or competitive endeavor.

 

[Hollidog]

I think a good example of supreme natural talent is this years Red Bull Racing line up. Look at Mark Webber, he is no slouch compared to any average joe, but compared to Sebastien Vettel, he is handily half a second slower than him in most qualifying sessions this year. This represents true raw talent to me, the ability to extract those final few tenths out of a car and to gain its absolute pace is something out of this world, there is a very select few who can do this, and there is a reason that only 32 people in the world have ever won a F1 world title. The car has an absolute pace, which I think is what you mean when you said something about given enough training, anyone can find the top speed of an F1 car. Well Im willing to wager you wouldn't even be able to drive the car out of the pit box, let alone get it around the first corner. The car does have an absolute pace, but drivers as good as Vettel or Alonso can eek out the extra one or two tenths that no one else can find, and that is why they are champions and why you and I are sitting behind computer screens arguing on the internet.

IMO, you can't really compare F1 drivers to any other racers, it is every racers goal to reach F1 or if its not, they can at least respect the talent that is required. NASCAR, IndyCar, even DTM and Le Mans racers are just guys who couldn't make it all the way but still got close to the top, however Le Mans and DTM is significantly comprised of ex F1 drivers.

 

[Tuck !]

I think a good example of supreme natural talent is this years Red Bull Racing line up. Look at Mark Webber, he is no slouch compared to any average joe, but compared to Sebastien Vettel, he is handily half a second slower than him in most qualifying sessions this year. This represents true raw talent to me, the ability to extract those final few tenths out of a car and to gain its absolute pace is something out of this world, there is a very select few who can do this, and there is a reason that only 32 people in the world have ever won a F1 world title. The car has an absolute pace, which I think is what you mean when you said something about given enough training, anyone can find the top speed of an F1 car. Well Im willing to wager you wouldn't even be able to drive the car out of the pit box, let alone get it around the first corner. The car does have an absolute pace, but drivers as good as Vettel or Alonso can eek out the extra one or two tenths that no one else can find, and that is why they are champions and why you and I are sitting behind computer screens arguing on the internet.

This!

 

[Schwartz]

Heres the question:
Are pro racers Athletes or skilled tradesmen?

 

[Ardius]

While Rich S's claims are insanely wild, the mindset he appears to have is a rather common one among the general public I feel. Or at least, to an average person who doesn't really stop to think about it. I think this is down experience. Most if not all people experience some kind of sporting activity and hence have something to relate and compare to when they judge talent. Motorsport is an oddball for sports as its relatively exclusive and close to impossible for the majority of children to experience.
As has been covered in previous topics about motorsport's image, the missing experience and the accessability is what causes people to to mis-understand or not really care about it.

The feel of the danger, the forces on your body, the sheer amount of concentration and skill it takes to really race a car or bike is not something easily appreciatable watching it on a TV screen. I actually think using fighter pilots is an interesting example - the general public accepts that flying a plane to the very limit is very demanding but it appears people aren't so accepting of racing drivers having a demanding job controlling a racing car. Despite the public not really having much experience of either.

I think part of this is simply a lack of education. There is plenty of material covering fighter pilots and the challenges they face. Not so for motorsports. Its all cyclical - motorsports aren't massively popular media-wise so they don't generate a lot of material that educates people but this in turn means motorsports struggle to increase their popularity.

So at least we have this thread now to educate anyone such as Rich S. But I don't expect him to be the last person to ask this sort of question about motorsport.

 

[Rich S]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

 

[Blitz24]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

So now you are stating that race car drivers aren't athletes? Why is this so?

 

[iridegravity]

Interesting thread. Lots of different areas of discussion. nice job OP. To answer the original question. I would say that a Pro Race Driver is not all that special. Im going to say that applies to the average racer that is just good enough at his skill set to make a career out of it. There's plenty of examples out there of people getting oppertunity based either on nepotism, sponsor dollars you can rake in or ponying up the dough yourself to bank roll your hobby. Motorsports in general is not played on a level playing field for all it's participants. Only the greats in motor sports could be considered special. The Sennas and Schumachers and legends from the past. I would argue to finish that Sebastian Vettel has yet to prove he is anything special. Lewis Hamilton has put together some special races, but special for a race driver means winning in multiple years for multiple teams. Means you were more than just the guy in the right spot at the right time. Honestly, I think a driver's championship is the least competitive thing in all forms of sport.

 

[Schwartz]

It really depends the type of racing it is.
Pro racers all have insane reflexes (better than those of almost any sport) but some types of racing require more physical and mental strength and endurance again both physically and mentally. Depending on the type of racing, I believe you could call a pro racer an athlete rather than a skilled tradesman
Dictionary Definition of athlete -person trained or gifted in sports or physical exercises

 

[nitrorocks]

It really depends the type of racing it is.
Pro racers all have insane reflexes (better than those of almost any sport) but some types of racing require more physical and mental strength and endurance again both physically and mentally. Depending on the type of racing, I believe you could call a pro racer an athlete rather than a skilled tradesman
Dictionary Definition of athlete -person trained or gifted in sports or physical exercises

Exactly! I think all drivers are athletes, it doesn't matter what kind of racing. People are just ignorant and think that racing isn't a sport

 

[f40]

I would argue to finish that Sebastian Vettel has yet to prove he is anything special. Lewis Hamilton has put together some special races, but special for a race driver means winning in multiple years for multiple teams. Means you were more than just the guy in the right spot at the right time.

Jim Clark wasn't anything special?

 

[iridegravity]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

I think you have to give credit to a race driver for being some kind of athlete because they have to maintain a relative state of fitness, Which is extremely high at F1 levels, so high in fact, the majority of average people could not attain it even if motivated too. People pass out on roller coasters at 3+ g's.
These guys maintain G loads far exceeding that, which requires quite a healthy physique, not to mention a well developed psyche to avoid fear.

Some people who deserve more credit as athletes might be Extreme sports greats who are engaging in dangerous activitys without the benefit of a cockpit, but your average baseball player, especially a pitcher is way less an athlete and more of a specialized trade person.

 

[Schwartz]

I think you have to give credit to a race driver for being some kind of athlete because they have to maintain a relative state of fitness, Which is extremely high at F1 levels, so high in fact, the majority of average people could not attain it even if motivated too. People pass out on roller coasters at 3+ g's.
These guys maintain G loads far exceeding that, which requires quite a healthy physique, not to mention a well developed psyche to avoid fear.

Some people who deserve more credit as athletes might be Extreme sports greats who are engaging in dangerous activitys without the benefit of a cockpit, but your average baseball player, especially a pitcher is way less an athlete and more of a specialized trade person.

I agree with everything but...
You can't say a pitcher is not an athlete. They have alot of the same traits as F1 drivers now that I think about it.
1. Endurance- Pitchers (especially starters) need insane enurance to throw 100+ pitches in a game.
2- Physical strength- As a pitcher you need to be in top physical shape (C.C. Sabathia excluded XD) to be able to throw upwards of 90 mph. This includes arm, core, and leg strength
3- Mental Strength- Pitchers must handle ALOT of pressure over the course of a game (considering they control it) and you cant crack under pressure
4- Fearlessness- Just like a race driver, you could be seriously injured or killed in less than a second if you get a line drive to the head and have zero time to react. You must be brave to pitch as well as race cars.
So when you think about it, baseball pitchers are very much like race car drivers .

 

[SkateNj]

I think being a pro race driver is something special. Im in no way shape or form a racing driver but im trying to get into karting and im starting to get into a better physique(running,toning up my muscles). I even have a tad bit of trouble coping with a 100cc go kart. I was also really scared on my first full pace lap.
Remember, It also takes a massive amount of balls which sets racing drivers apart from most athletes. I think is also way more stressful racing cars than doing sports like american football and stuff in that nature

 

[nitrorocks]

I think being a pro race driver is something special. Im in no way shape or form a racing driver but im trying to get into karting and im starting to get into a better physique(running,toning up my muscles). I even have a tad bit of trouble coping with a 100cc go kart. I was also really scared on my first full pace lap.
Remember, It also takes a massive amount of balls which sets racing drivers apart from most athletes. I think is also way more stressful racing cars than doing sports like american football and stuff in that nature

Yeah I totally agree. I have a 100cc kart and it can be a workout at times.

 

[Azuremen]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

You clearly have never driven a car hard. It is physically taxing and requires quite a bit of training and endurance.

Hell, I am imagining you've not done much driving at all.

 

[nitrorocks]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

The Ignorance continues...........

 

[Sach]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

Really?

/thread


Don't think this is even a reasonable discussion at this point.

 

[nitrorocks]

Really?

/thread

Don't think this is even a reasonable discussion at this point.

Lol that's what I was thinking

 

[Scaff]

Sim racers are good at sim racing. Real drivers are good at real driving.

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

Facts can be proven please do so, because if you continue to present opinion as fact you are going to start running into problems with the AUP.

Oh and answer my damn question.

You clearly have never driven a car hard. It is physically taxing and requires quite a bit of training and endurance.

Hell, I am imagining you've not done much driving at all.

That's basically the question I asked and for near two days now its been ignored, which in itself is very telling. Particularity as he first answered me with a question (which I was respectful enough to answer) and despite me asking repeatedly it has been avoided at every turn.


So here we go again.

Rich S please answer the following with your next post:

Have you ever driven a track car that generates a good amount of downforce (and therefore lateral Gs) on a track for any period of time?

Scaff

 

[Tuck !]

Maybe at some point I'll try karting, although I dont even know where to start. I like the Ferrari academy, sounds kind of cool.

I think from this we can infer that the answer is no?

 

[TheCracker]

But it doesnt change the fact that drivers are "tradesman" athletes are athletes.

Rich - You keep mentioning the word 'athletes' what sport or sports are you talking about in particular?

 

[Sohvakettu]

Pro racers all have insane reflexes (better than those of almost any sport) but some types of racing require more physical and mental strength and endurance again both physically and mentally.

They don't have insane reflexes. Me and you and certain smoking, drinking and over weight gent working for BBC have as fast reaction time as any F1 driver. It comes down to the purposefull training and experience. They seem to react faster because they know unconsiously what to do while unexperienced driver would freeze because he would need to figure out the situation as it happens and that's too slow.

The purposefull training isn't just driving in circles. It's about setting a goal for every practice session you do and working towards that aim methodically. Experienced trainer and knowledge in other fields of knowledge that might be aplied to the training might speed the process as you have a better idea where to start.

PS: I might be confused about the meaning of the word reflexes in this thread though? I take it to be related to the physical reaction speed of the body.

Edit: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1221515023583576967#docid=-3023624473044901440 about reactions

 

[homeforsummer]

Rich - You keep mentioning the word 'athletes' what sport or sports are you talking about in particular?

Tiddlywinks can be a hell of a strain on your fingers...

The feel of the danger, the forces on your body, the sheer amount of concentration and skill it takes to really race a car or bike is not something easily appreciatable watching it on a TV screen. I actually think using fighter pilots is an interesting example - the general public accepts that flying a plane to the very limit is very demanding but it appears people aren't so accepting of racing drivers having a demanding job controlling a racing car. Despite the public not really having much experience of either.

This raises an interesting point. I do wonder whether the relatively high-profile deaths of Marco Simoncelli and Dan Wheldon in short succession highlighted to a wider audience that motorsport really can be risky.

It's very easy to assume it's all fun and games when the sport actually has a very good safety record so fatal accidents are a bit of a reality check. Perhaps in a way even more so given the fatal car accident in Devon/Cornwall a few weeks back which highlighted very publicly that even normal roads aren't always the safest of places.

 

[hampus_dh]

I think that place uses what you called in another thread "Crapfactor" .

That´s Rfactor Pro, huge differences and to make it even less like Rfactor Pro the teams have their own packages to simulate stuff that it´s not even worth calling Rfactor pro anymore.

Then you have most teams that have own-built software. Williams for example built their software long before Rfactor was thought of.