Is France Going to Ban the Internal Combustion Engine?

Corsa

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Well they already lead the world in electricity production through nuclear power, so there will be no shortage of clean renewable electricity.
There might be a shortage in our wallets when electricity prices spike as fossil fuels are phased out.
 

JacoJa

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There might be a shortage in our wallets when electricity prices spike as fossil fuels are phased out.
It will have the opposite effect as renewables become more efficient and affordable (particularly solar and power storage). It definitely won't be all nuclear... that is darn expensive, and progress is slow.
 

homeforsummer

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I often think stories like that look more severe than they'll actually be in reality.

First, the date: 2040 is 23 years away, which is a pretty long time in automotive terms (if we say a typical model cycle is six years, that's almost four model cycles - think Volkswagen Golf Mk 10 or 11 by then...), and indeed in anyone's life. In all likelihood, the majority of regular, everyday automobiles will be either heavily hybridised or fully electric/fuel cell by then anyway. It was only six or seven years ago that there were only two or three EVs on sale at all, and now pretty much every car manufacturer sells one, while some sell several vehicles with some kind of electrification.

Second, it's a plan to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars - not a plan to end people's ability to drive them (though again, I'd be surprised if the average consumer isn't driving a hybrid or EV by then anyway). I imagine, while such things may be more heavily taxed, restricted in terms of location (think inner-city bans) or simply made expensive by the rising cost of fuel, people will still be able to drive regular vehicles fairly freely.
 
291
desmodan
what's an Xbox ?
As a self confessed Luddite, I'd like to say not on my watch.
But.....
Until all the eco mentalists stop demonising solid fuel its doomed, plus at some point it's gonna run out.
They tried catalytic converters which only work 10% of the time on 10% of cars.
They tried particle filters which only work ... Well let's face it they don't work.
And don't even get me started on ad blue .

So. For now . Embrace it while you can .
Until the governments decide which of its replacements is easiest to tax .
 

Famine

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Second, it's a plan to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars - not a plan to end people's ability to drive them (though again, I'd be surprised if the average consumer isn't driving a hybrid or EV by then anyway). I imagine, while such things may be more heavily taxed, restricted in terms of location (think inner-city bans) or simply made expensive by the rising cost of fuel, people will still be able to drive regular vehicles fairly freely.
Weeeeeeell... not necessarily. Paris is one of a few cities looking to ban diesel cars from entering it at all by 2025, and it has instituted a ban on pre-1997 vehicles and pre-2000 diesels from entering the city within the A86.

Once selling them is banned, driving them may not be far behind...
 

praiano63

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40 years is too too much time. Need to stop this as early as possible. When simulation will reach the top , for sure it will help a lot. We will not need cars that can reach 250kmh when roads are limited to 90kmh.
This guy Nicolas Hulot is not very trustable .
Do what i say not what i do.
In my opibnion a sailboat do the job.:lol:
hulot-nicolas-hors-bord.jpg
 

homeforsummer

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Weeeeeeell... not necessarily. Paris is one of a few cities looking to ban diesel cars from entering it at all by 2025, and it has instituted a ban on pre-1997 vehicles and pre-2000 diesels from entering the city within the A86.

Once selling them is banned, driving them may not be far behind...
That's an individual city though. London, with its surcharges for diesel vehicles for parking (a diesel car parked causes no more pollution than a petrol or even an electric one, of course...) and huge daily fees thankfully isn't representative of the rest of the country. Cities have their own unique problems that don't necessarily reply to the rest of a country.

I could absolutely see combustion-engined road traffic being banned entirely in somewhere like Paris or London in another 20-or-so years, but I'd be surprised if that extended to an entire country.
 

Famine

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That's an individual city though. London, with its surcharges for diesel vehicles for parking (a diesel car parked causes no more pollution than a petrol or even an electric one, of course...) and huge daily fees thankfully isn't representative of the rest of the country. Cities have their own unique problems that don't necessarily reply to the rest of a country.

I could absolutely see combustion-engined road traffic being banned entirely in somewhere like Paris or London in another 20-or-so years, but I'd be surprised if that extended to an entire country.
Indeed, but it's not something that's too unlikely. Nine UK cities have or are planning ULE congestion charging - and Paris's ban (which amounts to a ULEV zone with congestion charging at €22 a day for banned vehicles) is one of four in place or under proposal in mainland Europe.

Where capitals go, countries follow - largely because a huge proportion of the population lives or works in it and they elect the same proportion of MPs (with London and the Southeast it's about 25%) who have absolutely no concept of what it's like outside tbe capital and think that what's good for Londoners/Parisians/Berliners is good for everyone.

I don't think it will be long before a nation proposes a ban on driving ICE cars - after all, when they can say 'we'll do this in 2050' they may as well be saying nothing, as whatever it is may well be utterly anachronistic by then - although it's likely to be a while before one will approach implementation.
 

homeforsummer

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MPs (with London and the Southeast it's about 25%) who have absolutely no concept of what it's like outside tbe capital and think that what's good for Londoners/Parisians/Berliners is good for everyone.
Well, that bit is certainly the case.
I don't think it will be long before a nation proposes a ban on driving ICE cars - after all, when they can say 'we'll do this in 2050' they may as well be saying nothing, as whatever it is may well be utterly anachronistic by then - although it's likely to be a while before one will approach implementation.
That's more my feelings on it. Inevitable at some stage, but effectively posturing when it's announced, because no country actually has to implement something like that for another five or six rotations of government.
 

Johnnypenso

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It will have the opposite effect as renewables become more efficient and affordable (particularly solar and power storage). It definitely won't be all nuclear... that is darn expensive, and progress is slow.
That's always the promise with renewables. I've yet to see it take effect.
 
22,518
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HamiltonMP427
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Well they already lead the world in electricity production through nuclear power, so there will be no shortage of clean renewable electricity.
There might be a shortage in our wallets when electricity prices spike as fossil fuels are phased out.

Why would prices spike? In my state we have two massive resources of electricity (three technically) power being harnassed, through the Hoover Dam and Palo Verde Nuclear power plant. We also (the third) have many solar plants already built or being built for additional electricity. Since these things have been around for years now and the prices haven't changed between them or getting your power from a gas power plant where is the increase?

Also I find it weird that the idea of combustion engines would be banned when combustion engines are a mechanical system of taking a certain material be it gasoline, alcohol, ethanol, methane, hydrogen, butane, and converting energy into work. So wouldn't it be more of a ban on gasoline not the actual principal of combustion engines?

That's always the promise with renewables. I've yet to see it take effect.

What are you talking about, it doesn't increase the price as claimed from the experiences I've had.
 

Johnnypenso

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What are you talking about, it doesn't increase the price as claimed from the experiences I've had.
Ontarians paid $37 billion extra for electricity from 2006-14, says auditor general Bonnie Lysyk

Ontario’s electricity consumers are being zapped for tens of billions of dollars due to overpriced green energy, poor government planning, and shoddy service from Hydro One, says auditor general Bonnie Lysyk....She found Ontario’s push to promote wind and solar energy is unnecessarily costly and the government ignored warnings from the now-defunct Ontario Power Authority that some power plants, like a biomass-fuelled station near Thunder Bay, were prohibitively expensive....Lysyk estimated consumers could end up paying $9.2 billion more for renewable energy over 20-year contracts issued under the Green Energy Act with guaranteed prices set at double the U.S. market price for wind and at 3.5 times the going rate for solar last year.
I can't speak for other areas of the globe that use free market forces to balance out the costs of electricity generation, but in Ontario, it's been proven time and time again over the last 15 years, that once the government gets involved, costs skyrocket. And skyrocket is not an exaggeration, it's literal. In a province that, 15 years ago, before the green energy madness, generated 85% of it's hydro with zero emissions, the idiots that run the province have more than doubled electricity prices in pursuit of a green energy unicorn that was completely unnecessary in our particular case. There is much more to it than this, but when you institute subsidies for individual citizens to generate solar electricity and give them a feed-in tariff of more than 10 times the market rate for hydro, it's not going to help keep costs down. When you have a contract for windmill construction and hydro generation that isn't tendered and a giant foreign congolomerate is given a behind-closed-doors sweetheart deal, it's not going to help keep costs down. When you see people in Canada with solar panels facing east and north or behind trees, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out there's something wrong with the program. We are the Great White North after all.

We cannot escape this. There is no free market here in electricity generation, it's all tightly controlled and regulated by the morons we elect and we are doomed for decades because of it. We are locked into contracts we cannot get out of.

FYI, the Auditor General here is an impartial, non-political watchdog that keeps an eye on the government. Their reports are often scathing and rightly so, and just as often ignored by the government of the day.
 
22,518
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HamiltonMP427
That's always the promise with renewables. I've yet to see it take effect.

What are you talking about, it doesn't increase the price as claimed. I paid the same for my AC running when I was on a gas
Ontarians paid $37 billion extra for electricity from 2006-14, says auditor general Bonnie Lysyk

I can't speak for other areas of the globe that use free market forces to balance out the costs of electricity generation, but in Ontario, it's been proven time and time again over the last 15 years, that once the government gets involved, costs skyrocket. And skyrocket is not an exaggeration, it's literal. In a province that, 15 years ago, before the green energy madness, generated 85% of it's hydro with zero emissions, the idiots that run the province have more than doubled electricity prices in pursuit of a green energy unicorn that was completely unnecessary in our particular case. There is much more to it than this, but when you institute subsidies for individual citizens to generate solar electricity and give them a feed-in tariff of more than 10 times the market rate for hydro, it's not going to help keep costs down. When you have a contract for windmill construction and hydro generation that isn't tendered and a giant foreign congolomerate is given a behind-closed-doors sweetheart deal, it's not going to help keep costs down. When you see people in Canada with solar panels facing east and north or behind trees, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out there's something wrong with the program. We are the Great White North after all.

We cannot escape this. There is no free market here in electricity generation, it's all tightly controlled and regulated by the morons we elect and we are doomed for decades because of it. We are locked into contracts we cannot get out of.

FYI, the Auditor General here is an impartial, non-political watchdog that keeps an eye on the government. Their reports are often scathing and rightly so, and just as often ignored by the government of the day.

Well that's too bad, I mean you also live in a place that has more water due to the great lakes, and yet my water bill is significantly lower and we live in a drought...go figure.
 
1,500
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This whole climate change thing is a scam in the first place to lower our living standards and to subsidize emissions from ecological hellholes like China and India. Our Companies leave to those countries who have zero regulations and destroy the environment while free trade creates even more emissions.

Why is nobody pointing this out? That those that tell us we have to safe the planet support the idea of shipping Products across the globe to safe wage money?
 
22,518
United States
Arizona
HamiltonMP427
This whole climate change thing is a scam in the first place to lower our living standards and to subsidize emissions from ecological hellholes like China and India. Our Companies leave to those countries who have zero regulations and destroy the environment while free trade creates even more emissions.

Why is nobody pointing this out? That those that tell us we have to safe the planet support the idea of shipping Products across the globe to safe wage money?

Well one, there are two threads that you can visit to take this up at. That being the climate thread that talks about this, which isn't really apart of the thread you've currently posted on. And the Conspiracy thread for when and if you can't post substantial evidence to prove that this is actually happening.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/global-warming-discussion-thread.64596/
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-illuminati-and-other-conspiracy-theories-thread.290602/
 
4,463
United States
United States
This whole climate change thing is a scam in the first place to lower our living standards and to subsidize emissions from ecological hellholes like China and India. Our Companies leave to those countries who have zero regulations and destroy the environment while free trade creates even more emissions.

Why is nobody pointing this out? That those that tell us we have to safe the planet support the idea of shipping Products across the globe to safe wage money?

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/sea-level/

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/


Damn heckin' SJW scams to take away my V12 F1 engines reeeeeeee
 
1,500
Germany
Germany
And the Conspiracy thread for when and if you can't post substantial evidence to prove that this is actually happening.
Trudeau supports global free trade.
Trade means you transport things around the globe in Planes, Boats and trains with massive emissions. Meanwhile he claims to fight climate change and emissions. Either he is schizophrenic or lying.
Damn heckin' SJW scams to take away my V12 F1 engines reeeeeeee
Al Gore says we are all dead in 10 Years....
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...k-expires-climate-change-fanatics-wrong-again
Guess not
http://www.dailywire.com/news/13415/so-al-gore-was-wrong-about-global-warming-joseph-curl

 
22,518
United States
Arizona
HamiltonMP427
Trudeau supports global free trade.
Trade means you transport things around the globe in Planes, Boats and trains with massive emissions. Meanwhile he claims to fight climate change and emissions. Either he is schizophrenic or lying.

Al Gore says we are all dead in 10 Years....
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...k-expires-climate-change-fanatics-wrong-again
Guess not
http://www.dailywire.com/news/13415/so-al-gore-was-wrong-about-global-warming-joseph-curl


I've supplied you with the proper thread to discuss and read about climate change. Not saying your wrong or right, just where to post things rather than turn this thread into an existing thread, this is about combustion units facing a potential ban not climate change theory. Not sure what Canada's leader and his stance has to do with this thread's article.
 
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Corsa

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Why would prices spike? In my state we have two massive resources of electricity (three technically) power being harnassed, through the Hoover Dam and Palo Verde Nuclear power plant. We also (the third) have many solar plants already built or being built for additional electricity. Since these things have been around for years now and the prices haven't changed between them or getting your power from a gas power plant where is the increase?

Also I find it weird that the idea of combustion engines would be banned when combustion engines are a mechanical system of taking a certain material be it gasoline, alcohol, ethanol, methane, hydrogen, butane, and converting energy into work. So wouldn't it be more of a ban on gasoline not the actual principal of combustion engines?



What are you talking about, it doesn't increase the price as claimed from the experiences I've had.

Who has those massive resources of electricity in their lobbyist back pocket?
Whenever government touches resources the price will rise.
Especially if the world decides to shift away from fossil fuels, you think uncle sam is just going to let all that tax revenue on fuel disappear like a fart in the wind?

Negative.

They will find a way to increase the price of power and attach some crafty name to their new tax.
And none of that even includes the effect of supply and demand because suddenly we all need alot more juice to plug in our Teslas.
 
1,500
Germany
Germany
XXI
They will find a way to increase the price of power and attach some crafty name to their new tax.
At least you get it. Its nothing but a tax scam to fill the pockets of a few.

We pay more for everything yet those climate agreements are mostly not even binding. Or cant be achieved.
 

Corsa

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At least you get it. Its nothing but a tax scam to fill the pockets of a few.

We pay more for everything yet those climate agreements are mostly not even binding. Or cant be achieved.

Agreed.
I believe the potential France plan is just the beginning, other countries may adopt similiar policy.
I also hope to still be alive, in which case I'm going to start looking into entry level investments and electical production futures.
I can't imagine a world without the internal combustion engine, but I suppose in 1850 people couldn't imagine a world without a horse either.
Our civilization moves quickly.
 
11,918
Australia
Melbourne
Neomone/GTP_Imari
If it was for guys like you we would still running steam cars...

Did you know that there were actually electric cars back in the late 1800s? They obviously didn't ultimately manage to compete with internal combustion, because electric technology simply wasn't capable at that point of matching the easy developments that IC made. Still, early on there were significant benefits, they were quiet and didn't cough black smoke everywhere.

The moment that electric provides a better value proposition to people than internal combustion, you'll see the vast majority of buyers flock to it. At the moment, electric cars are expensive and limiting. Not many people want to pay more money for a downgrade. Particularly in larger countries where there's substantial distance between population centres.

I find myself at the moment looking for a new car. I drive ~100km each way to work. I looked at an electric car. It's basically $40k and up, even used, in Australia. For that I can get the mother of all 5 year old luxury cars, and I can still drive down the Great Ocean Road and back without running out of juice. Or I can just spend $20k, get a great car, and spend the other $20k on chips and beer.

There's nothing wrong with being practical and waiting until a technology is actually mature.
 

homeforsummer

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Did you know that there were actually electric cars back in the late 1800s? They obviously didn't ultimately manage to compete with internal combustion, because electric technology simply wasn't capable at that point of matching the easy developments that IC made.
Capability actually wasn't a problem - early electric cars were generally as capable as combustion and steam ones, as well as being more reliable, quieter and easier to operate.

What killed off the technology in its early days was, ironically, the electric starter motor, which helped remove one of the more tiresome aspects of driving a combustion-engined vehicle, and the discovery of vast oil reserves which suddenly made petroleum both plentiful and vastly cheaper than it had been.