Is it just me?

[exitor]

Cars need to be viewed in their own context. Cars of the 1960s were nothing like cars of the 1990s - the availible technology was very different. In the racing context, forced-induction peaky small-block aluminum engines are much more efficient than big, low-peaking, wide-torquing iron engines, especially in the hp/displacement ratio.

This being said, there is no reason to feel really special when your twin-turbocharged small-block Japanese car can outperform an american muscle car from the 60s - you have 40 years worth of engineering advances on your side.

On the other hand, those who are into 'yee-hawww that good ol' muscle from the us-of-a can out-drag all them gosh durn rice burning hunks a crap' need to remember that modern draggers like that are using a lot of tech to strengthen the blocks that isn't exactly from the 1960's, they burn pure alcohol, and they can't turn corners.

The reason people consider TT supras, skylines, etc to be so great is that they can make 600+ horsepower and still be driven to work.

In the classic group, the souped up '62 Buick Special is by far my fav.

 

[98cobra]

You think a Supra sounds better than 528 Hemi with open headers??? What's da matter wich you boy? You have probably never heard a large American V8 with open headers before have you? Have you ever felt the concusion they generate? Or even better yet, have you ever heard a top fuel dragster? Not on TV, I'm talkin in the bleachers at the track! It's mandatory to wear ear plugs if you wanna hear the next day! And when they go by it's like your vision gets blurred there is so much power! I would recomend an NHRA drag racing event to any motor head! And can I see some figures of what it would cost to get 1000+ib.ft. of tourqe from turboed up Supra? Just curios, cause you can get that out of 528 for about, oh, $30 - $40k.



"THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT!" Kip Napolean

Man, you gave me flashbacks of when I went to the NHRA event in Pomona California. Oh yeah what a rush. The cars sound amazing with 16,000 horsepower starin' right in front of you.

 

[Jmac279]

OK, Jmac 279. All of those facts are nice, but i dont really see your point. Whose side are you on? Well, that doesn't really matter either, because thats not what this thread was about. It was about whether you like American Muscle cars in GT4. I personally do, because my '70 Chevelle 454 kills anything from Japan made in 1970, not to mention a lot made in much more recent years. but that doesn't mean i don't like imports, too. All sports cars are cool in their own right, no matter where, or when, they were made.

I'm not on anyone's side ...

My points ...

Power is generally related to the vehicle's class rather than the displacement of the engine ... Like I said before, it's cheaper to make power with a larger engine ... It's a different design philosophy ...

Fuel economy isn't really related to displacement either ... Most of the least economical vehicles in the world have engines that are less than 6 liters in displacement ...

http://www.cars.com/carsapp/nationa...=/advice/bestworst/mileage/04_best_worst.tmpl

Notice a trend ? They're all a) High performance vehicles with high compression ratios or b) Big, heavy vehicles (mostly trucks) with poor aerodynamics ... Thus, one would draw the conclusion that fuel economy is more related to a richer fuel/air mixture, vehicle weight, and aerodynamics ...

And reliability of an engine is hardly dependent on displacement and has much more to do with quality of parts, quality of design, and the strength of the internals in relation to the force within the engine ...

 

[loki993]

im definitly in the muscle car camp. as for the comment about the supras for 30 - 40k you can get numbers like that. turbos actually make immense amounts of torque. i like the muscle cars in the game but it seems to me that they have been limited a bit. they dont make as much power as they should in my opinion. i think i maxed the cuda at a bit over 700hp. cant really remember. i know for a fact a head and cam package for a 440, that sells for about 3-4k will get you well north of 500hp. i thought they should be getting around the 900 and above mark in my opinion. some people just dont get muscle cars. theres nothing in to world like the sound a big block makes with the caps off. and the radio??? who needs a radio when you have to beutiful v8 sound blasting in the car. plus anyone whos listning the radio while running an 10-11 sec quarter is an idiot anyway. thats the last thing you should be doing. as for big motors teraing themselves apart, ive seen MANY 200, 300000 mile original cars from the 60 still running today. how about ford chevy and dodge trucks? many with over 300000 and still going strong, so that arguments shot. oh and old trallys being bad and junky, the powerglide which was first made in the 50s i believe is one of the most soughtafter trannies for dragracing today, if they broke they wouldnt be. and there was a reason the called the muncie m-22 the rock crusher. mopar a-833, the tranny authirized for use behind every hemi built. want to talk rear ends? dana-60, couldnt breake it if you tried. put down 400 ft-lbs in a civic on slicks and see how fast you throw a gear or snap a half-shaft.

 

[loki993]

sorry about venting, i love my mopars. i just couldnt resist the 440 cuda, sublime of course.

 

[jamesdelux]

I just put a super-charger in my CHEVY CHEVELLE SS = 610 BHP, sweet jesus what fun yyyyyyyeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Driftster]

Baaahhhh....👎 You just havent had the opportunity to stand next to a 528 Mopar Hemi with 900+ Hp and 1000+ lb.ft. of tourqe, (let me see your turboed up supra make that kinda tourqe!!!) and OPEN HEADERS screaming at 7500 rpm down the 1/4 mile in the 9's at the Mopar Nationals in Columbus Ohio! Once you've experienced that you will quickly become hooked on the good ole American Muscle cars many of us have come to love today! So quit yur winning about larger engines this and larger engines that.... And remember this, you dont feel 22lbs of boost coming out of a costly turbo charger, What you feel is the 1000+ lb.ft. of tourqe coming out of naturaly aspirated, fuel injected, 528 CUBIC INCH HEMI! You dont feel hp, you feel tourqe!

I've stood next to a azz load of American muscle cars, I live in freakin Arizona. I either see TTA's Cuda's Stangs Maro's GSX(T)'s Super Bee's Superbirds or ....Civic's and Sentra's...All but the TTA's and GSX's I can't stand the sound or feel of.

 

[Velocity]

Wow I honestly am pleasantly surprised by the turn out on this thread!

GT4 kicks ass!

(and currently it's my ass that's being kicked...)

 

[Velocity]

Im absolutely all about the muscle cars in GT4! Especially the 71' Super Bee because I own a 73' Charger, and they are the same body style as the 71'. Well, it is'nt exactly mine, but me, my dad, and brother restored it. It has won several awards, including a best of show and a very elite Best Paint, in show with over 500 cars! Thought you might like to see it Velocity, since you like Chargers.👍 👍 👍

Nice dude nice! I notice she's got duals. 360 or 440? I assume not a 383 because they'd quit production on them by then. Auto or stick? Console or tree?

 

[Velocity]

i dont mind the muscle cars but they are no tteh best...they have horrible turning and are really only used for a few races...and tahts fine but why waste the money just to drive one when there are plenty otehr faster and better cars on the game

'Cause it's enriching and makes you a bit more of a conissure. Wow that one has to be spelt wrong. That and it's you know, not real money or anything. It's very easy to make money in a video game so why not spend it?

I could understand hanging on to money if like PD had a cash out option at the end of the game....think of it!!!

*salavatates*

To each their own though.

 

[Velocity]

I gotta say i much prefered the old american styling, i can look at muscle cars and say they look pretty sexy in there own meat-headed kinda way, American cars these day im sorry to say have lost all of that beauty and replaced chrome with horrible chunks of cheap plastic 👎

I agree! With the exceptions of the Ford GT and the new Mustang. Ford has done well with their retro styling as of days late. It looks a lot like the Mach 1!

Now if only Dodge had done that with the Charger....which in my oppinion is a complete let down. I mean why even bother calling it a Charger. It looks absolutely nothing like it! Why not call it the 300huh?

Looks wise to me in 98% of cases the old Muscle had it looks wise on todays new stuff. And price wise there is no comparison. If you're a muscle car guy you can get your dream machine for about the price of a decent mid level new car. I can't say the same for most of the sporty exotics.... 100,000 for an NSX? I love the car but come on! Only 276 hp? If I spent that much on a muscle car you'd easily be pushin' 600 plus horse power...that is conservative...depending on the engine of course.

And sound? Sorry you fans of the "cherry bomb" or "fart cannon" exausts on these new cars are missing out on the sound of a real engine. I could never understand why anyone would want their car to sound like an sickly anemic motorcycle.

I'm not slaggin' anyones taste. Just riffin'.

 

[Velocity]

I think so dude

*looking back over the last 4 pages of posts* Some how I don't think so.

 

[Velocity]

Really? You think?
Hmmmmm........I think that if you put a 6 liter or larger engine in just anything that it'll take a car with 3 liters or less.
Duh...........
Most tuners or imports are 2-4 liters. Most muscle are 6-8 liters.
go figure.
It's comments like that one that make me laugh at american car fans.
Of course the car will give the imports a run for their money.......they have almost TWICE THE ENGINE SIZE.
When american cars can consistantly run the same times, handle as good, and last past 200k miles with minimal maint like the imports, that will be the day I start buying American. Until then, I'll just laugh at the idiots who think that they can compare a car with 8 liters to a car with 3..................

If you want to compare cars...........hows this for reality
Toyota Supra (the last version they made) versus......Chevy Malibu.
that's a little more of the same engine size......in the 3 liter class.
Or maybe take the newer Impala's....they have a 3.4 liter.
Sorry, but the supra would smoke the Malibu or Impala any day of the week.
Why can the Japanese make engines that are smaller yet produce well over the HP that the same size american engines make?
I was told it's because the Japanese make their engines a little tighter to spec (they throw out 3 parts for ever 1 the americans do that are off spec) and thus can squeeze that much more performance out............but I don't know. Does anyone have a logical explanation?

Yes when comparing 60's tech with todays it's called 40 years of development. Funny how these newer cars don't seem able to hold a much higher if higher at all corner speed than the muscle cars in GT4.

And also the 302, 340's and 350's (that would be the 5.0 litre class to the metric fans) are capable of putting out a great deal of horsepower, weigh less than their big block brethen and subsequently handle and accelerate better to. You can't compare a big block car to a small block in terms of handling. It ain't fair.

Not only that but I've seen some pretty killer 3.7 litre slant six engines out of the 60's as well. Though stock they are absolutely gutless. But un-killable.

A little respect for the fore fathers!

 

[Velocity]

HAHAHA Simplicity of old engines?!?! THAT IS THE MOST HILARIOUS THING I'VE EVER HEARD.
You've obviously never looked under the hood of a 1984 Grand Wagoneer.

Let's compare that to

You know less about cars than you let on. No one in their right mind would even consider comparing anything from the early 80's with a new engine. There is so much retarded stuff on those 80's and late 70's smog motors that you can not compare. GO back a little further. Try the mid to late 60's. Take a look under the hood of that. That's simple. You can fix it yoursefl to. I'd like to see you fix a new import. Right you can't. You have take it to the shop and let them soak you for parts and labour.

Again depends on your perspective.

 

[Velocity]

Baaahhhh....👎 You just havent had the opportunity to stand next to a 528 Mopar Hemi with 900+ Hp and 1000+ lb.ft. of tourqe, (let me see your turboed up supra make that kinda tourqe!!!) and OPEN HEADERS screaming at 7500 rpm down the 1/4 mile in the 9's at the Mopar Nationals in Columbus Ohio! Once you've experienced that you will quickly become hooked on the good ole American Muscle cars many of us have come to love today! So quit yur winning about larger engines this and larger engines that.... And remember this, you dont feel 22lbs of boost coming out of a costly turbo charger, What you feel is the 1000+ lb.ft. of tourqe coming out of naturaly aspirated, fuel injected, 528 CUBIC INCH HEMI! You dont feel hp, you feel tourqe!

I wish you'd warned me before posting that! Now I gotta change my shorts!

*still salavatating*

 

[Velocity]

Supra's are well able to make that kind of torque too, so i wouldnt be talking. Honestly, how nice the V8 sounds, i think a Supra has even better sound. Costly turbocharger? Its not so costly.

Let's not forget that turbo and nitrous wear out an engine faster too! Let's see what these little 2 and 3 litres make with N/A tuning. Without forced induction of some kind they're pretty weak. EFI and turbo are truly wonderful advents in automotive technology.

If you apply all of todays technology to yesterdays cars you'd have absolute monsters on your hands! Suspension too. A truly weak point on older muscle.
Same as the the old Bias ply tires. No comparioson with todays stuff.

 

[Velocity]

Guys please this is the GT4 section of the forums, if you want to debate this take it to the automotive section.

Any ways I really like the muscle cars in GT4, I'm glad they put the Grand National in there, also the Buick Special is pretty sweet to (it needed the air bags though). The only one I think needs some help is the GTO they put in the game, they really should have put a better one in.

Hey chill I started the thread and it's okay by me. Let's not get to heated though. What difference does it really make if we post this debate here or on a different thread? We're talking about GT4 and cars from all walks of life. I think that's what PD had in mind. No one will get hurt if the thread for this conversation is here as opposed to the automotive section.

Though I didn't see it going this way to be honest....

 

[Joey D]

No you guys are doing the infamous imports vs. muscle cars battle which does not belong in this thread. Nor does it belong on this forum, get back on track.

 

[Velocity]

No you guys are doing the infamous imports vs. muscle cars battle which does not belong in this thread. Nor does it belong on this forum, get back on track.

I don't know man but like all these replys would suggest that no one is really bothered by it but you.

 

[Joey D]

Because I dislike newbies like you that don't know how to post in proper forums and I'm sure the mods would not like it either if they weren't swaped with work.

 

[Velocity]

Because I dislike newbies like you that don't know how to post in proper forums and I'm sure the mods would not like it either if they weren't swaped with work.

Well not to argue but I'm not a newb. New name. I've been around for about a year. Never posted though.

On top of that my original post does involve GT4 and the muscle cars in it so it's not like it was out of place. It became out of place.

All I'm saying is that the conversation already started it's already done. Why complain now? Seems rather pointless.

I will say no more about it.

 

[super_brrd]

yeah Driftster man, come on. A Grand Wagoneer isn't even muscle, much less a car. and anything from the 80's is gonna be junk anyway, even though it's a jeep, which freakin' rock. you can't compare it and a new Honda.

 

[Sage]

*Ahem*

Let's quit the useless "imports vs. muscle cars" bickering – this thread was made to discuss muscle cars in GT4, nothing else. Everybody got that?

 

[S31Ender]

edit. Note moderators comment.

 

[MCX]

... The chance to drive pieces of history is awesome! I love being able to run the best of the '60s against the *cough* average of the new millenia. Yes even I admit that todays exotics are far and away above the old school in terms of efficiency and handling. ...

Sir, I'd like to remind you that this forum is for GT4 game discussion only. Thank you for your cooperation. 👎

 

[Velocity]

Sir, I'd like to remind you that this forum is for GT4 game discussion only. Thank you for your cooperation. 👎

I will say it again. The posting IS about GT4 and the cars in it. Is that not what the game is about? Racing cars? So you're saying that I'm not allowed to compare different models as I discover them through the game or ask if anyone is enthusiastic about the old muscle in GT4? Like lay off people. Find a better cause and fight for it.

I can understand the problem with the the bickering part, but if you look real close you'll probably find that I didn't start that.

You're seriously beating a dead horse. My god nothing offensive was even said in the post you're alluding too. The cough and following text in the post was my way of saying that as much as I love muscle cars in GT4 there really only a match for garden varitey sport cars of today. Why are some making such a huge deal out of this? If it was a wrong post in a wrong section of the fourm then why did the MODs allow it?

I really don't want to fight with anyone here. I'm just blown away at how touchy some folks are.

We have some very sensitive people on this forum.

It is crystal clear to me now why the MODs NEED to be strict. We have fragile minds to protect.

 

[MCX]

heh. I was just commenting on what the mods said. I agree with you. Please note the in my previous post. I was quoting what you said to illustrate to the mods that this game is about cars, and a lot of people buy the game to drive cars that they can't or don't own in real life.

I think that car discussion is perfectly at home in a forum about a "real driving simulator".

Maybe I'm wrong. Whatever, it's not the first time and it won't be the last.

 

[Velocity]

heh. I was just commenting on what the mods said. I agree with you. Please note the in my previous post. I was quoting what you said to illustrate to the mods that this game is about cars, and a lot of people buy the game to drive cars that they can't or don't own in real life.

I think that car discussion is perfectly at home in a forum about a "real driving simulator".

Maybe I'm wrong. Whatever, it's not the first time and it won't be the last.

Well then to you sir I say my appologies for any tension or tensions caused by my posts. 👍 And in this case I'd say you're right. I guess I mis read the post like I think some people did with mine.

No hard feelings.

 

[MCX]

Well then to you sir I say my appologies for any tension or tensions caused by my posts. 👍 And in this case I'd say you're right. I guess I mis read the post like I think some people did with mine.

No hard feelings.

It's cool, I hope you accept my apologies as well. Sarcasm is notoriously difficult to convey on the internet.

Hopefully everyone will chill out a bit and continue discussing the old cars that are featured in the game. 👍

 

[JohnBM01]

When I play-tested GT4, I didn't try out any American muscle cars. I did race the Viper (if you consider it a muscle car) around New York. Damn, man. That Viper is killer. I think the pinnacle of American muscle cars in racing has to be Trans-Am. I don't know the deal too well, but who can forget seeing Boss Mustangs, Challengers, and such owning the tracks of America? Today's Trans-Am are still mostly American machinery with wonderful engine noise, close to Australian V8 Supercar sounds. The last old American machine that I got in and enjoyed was the Shelby Cobra (GT3). I know I been chatting about racing a Shelby Cobra with the top down on the beautiful Costa di Amalfi course. And guess what? I still cannot wait. Okay, so it isn't American muscle tearing up America, but the muscle and pony cars shouldn't disappoint.

And as far as you go, Live4Speed, TVRs are basically out-the-box race cars. Come on now. Light weight. Great horsepower. Basically, these are street legal race cars, and if you can tame the Speed 12, you're the man (or the woman, if you're a GT Girl). But if you're in American muscle and can put a TVR on the shelf, you're tough to beat.

Of course, if you want America vs. British, just play GT1's "US vs. UK" series.