Is it time to let go?

[strela]

People who didn't like the game right from the start should really let it go. Some are still whining after almost two years! Let it go!! Sure, just an advice you can simply ignore!

For me it's far from a perfect game, but than again, no other driving, racing game came even close to the time I spent with every single GT game. After almost two years I still play this game (not as often as I did one year ago but still) while I can't even remember where did I left the Grid Autosport disc. Well, who cares anyway!

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Since Forza is basically doubling the rate of release of GT, that would be FM10 and GT8 or FM14 and GT10, whichever you prefer. Now that I think about it, with a new game every 2 years, and the Forza Horizon series in there too, it might be enough to keep one going on a single console because the fresh, new content just keeps rolling in much more regularly.

That's true. Although with Forza's model you're essentially paying for the same car twice or thrice (e.g. car as DLC for FM6, again in Horizon 3, then from launch on FM7). Personally I find that a bit too much. GT's development rate is slow as hell, but at least PD doesn't do DLC sprees. So when you buy GT7, you'll know it has ~200 new cars that hasn't been seen before.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's true. Although with Forza's model you're essentially paying for the same car twice or thrice (e.g. car as DLC for FM6, again in Horizon 3, then from launch on FM7). Personally I find that a bit too much. GT's development rate is slow as hell, but at least PD doesn't do DLC sprees. So when you buy GT7, you'll know it has ~200 new cars that hasn't been seen before.

When you bought GT6, you had already paid for 90% of the cars if you bought GT5. Cars also came from GT3 and GT4. So you paid for them 2, 3 and 4 times. As far as DLC goes, I'd rather have the DLC spree. No one forces me to buy it, but if I want it I can. And they are included in the next game. That's how Forza goes from 0 next gen full premiums to 400+ in a couple of years and GT hasn't produced that many unique full premiums in 10 years. Forza has already equalled GT's unique premium car count and will surpass with the next game easily.

 

[cjr3559]

When you bought GT6, you had already paid for 90% of the cars if you bought GT5. Cars also came from GT3 and GT4. So you paid for them 2, 3 and 4 times. As far as DLC goes, I'd rather have the DLC spree. No one forces me to buy it, but if I want it I can. And they are included in the next game. That's how Forza goes from 0 next gen full premiums to 400+ in a couple of years and GT hasn't produced that many unique full premiums in 10 years. Forza has already equalled GT's unique premium car count and will surpass with the next game easily.

Agree PD has their work cut out for them to keep pace with T10. While I haven't studied the Forza car list that intensely, I've paid for PD's similar catalog of cars over a period of 15 years rather than 2, and physics and graphics (not including all standards) have improved over the time span.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Agree PD has their work cut out for them to keep pace with T10. While I haven't studied the Forza car list that intensely, I've paid for PD's similar catalog of cars over a period of 15 years rather than 2, and physics and graphics (not including all standards) have improved over the time span.

Only in the GT world is the same content paid for over and over, over an extended period of time, somehow better than more current gen/consistent quality content in a shorter period of time.

 

[FoRiZon]

Implying that most of Forza 6 assets are way different than on Forza 5.

Because of course not. Its has more engaging new content though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Implying that most of Forza 6 assets are way different than on Forza 5.

Because of course not. Its has more engaging new content though.

Implying nothing of the sort. Every succeeding game in a given generation is a continuation of the previous game. Forza 6 is a continuation of the entirely next gen content that came with Forza 5 and they are producing it at a rate that PD can only dream about.

 

[ImaRobot]

I've never been a one-platform guy, however, so I spent lots of time on Forza 3/4 in parallel to GT5/6, in parallel to all the PC sims. But for me Forza 3/4 never really hit the spot: poor lighting model, inbuilt tail-happiness which I just can't reconcile with any of my other sims, great car list and tuning but not enough track variety.
GT also has a much much larger community than Forza, as you can see by looking at the attendance on weekly time trials: Forza would always drop swiftly within 3-6 months after launch to 10,000-20,000 users per time trial, whereas GT5/6 maintained hundreds of thousands of users even in their second year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only leaderboards on GT are from the seasonal events, no? There are only a handful of those, so it'll attract a much larger audience then Forza. Forza's has leaderboards for 100~ different layouts spread out around 8 different car classes, then there are spec events, drift events, VIP events, auto cross events. The user base is going to be much more spread out compared to the handful of leaderboard events in GT. Can't really compare the two in that regard.

Based on my preference for GT over Forza on previous gen, I made the decision last year to go PS4 (with the appropriate wheel purchase). And yes, the last few weeks had me eyeing up an Xbox One and TX wheelbase to go multiplatform again, but something is holding me back. Forza 6 still has that whiff of tail happiness, and the lack of dynamic lighting still holds it back graphically. I might cave and buy it, but I'm holding firm with the expectation that between the PC, Driveclub and GT7 I made the right call.

Tail happiness only happens when you modify a car and don't tune it

I, however, haven't all given up on GT. I'm holding onto hope that the jump to next gen is what they needed, and thought they should have done that with GT6. Until that time comes, I feel FM6 is doing more then enough for me.

 

[skazz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only leaderboards on GT are from the seasonal events, no? There are only a handful of those, so it'll attract a much larger audience then Forza. Forza's has leaderboards for 100~ different layouts spread out around 8 different car classes, then there are spec events, drift events, VIP events, auto cross events. The user base is going to be much more spread out compared to the handful of leaderboard events in GT. Can't really compare the two in that regard.



Tail happiness only happens when you modify a car and don't tune it

I, however, haven't all given up on GT. I'm holding onto hope that the jump to next gen is what they needed, and thought they should have done that with GT6. Until that time comes, I feel FM6 is doing more then enough for me.

I'm not interested in arguing about Forza's physics, just stating my viewpoint. Disagreeing is fine.
I was comparing Forza Rivals events with GT time trials. Obviously leaderboards per car/track are not a relevant measure. In fact, Rivals challenges always used to be per month and GT5/6 had time trials per 2 weeks and yet GT has a much larger audience.

 

[ImaRobot]

I'm not interested in arguing about Forza's physics, just stating my viewpoint. Disagreeing is fine.
I was comparing Forza Rivals events with GT time trials. Obviously leaderboards per car/track are not a relevant measure. In fact, Rivals challenges always used to be per month and GT5/6 had time trials per 2 weeks and yet GT has a much larger audience.

I wasn't arguing anything about physics, so no need to be so dismissive. Either way, I was obviously stating mine so it's not like anyone was confused about the matter. Forza's Rivals mode is not per month, its per any time any one wants to go in and try it. There is community events, but with access to so many Rivals leaderboards the user base gets spread out ridiculously. There is probably upward of 1000 different leaderboards to enter, and because of that I feel that people don't venture around too much, as it can be a bit intimidating.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I wasn't arguing anything about physics, so no need to be so dismissive. Either way, I was obviously stating mine so it's not like anyone was confused about the matter. Forza's Rivals mode is not per month, its per any time any one wants to go in and try it. There is community events, but with access to so many Rivals leaderboards the user base gets spread out ridiculously. There is probably upward of 1000 different leaderboards to enter, and because of that I feel that people don't venture around too much, as it can be a bit intimidating.

That's a good point. When you have hundreds of leaderboards the effort from the playerbase is obviously way more spread out. Hard to compare then.

 

[TJ13]

I kinda let it go once I heard seasonals going bi-weekly,
Then the same amount of events.
Nothing is new, Not really much of an online racer and with no real news on anything else I have kinda moved on.

 

[skazz]

I wasn't arguing anything about physics, so no need to be so dismissive. Either way, I was obviously stating mine so it's not like anyone was confused about the matter. Forza's Rivals mode is not per month, its per any time any one wants to go in and try it. There is community events, but with access to so many Rivals leaderboards the user base gets spread out ridiculously. There is probably upward of 1000 different leaderboards to enter, and because of that I feel that people don't venture around too much, as it can be a bit intimidating.

Then that's a change since Forza 4, and without having tried it, doesn't seem for the better. The beauty of a limited set of monthly events is that you focus the participation. You can be sure your friends list will provide a nice challenge for every event.

Shame.

 

[ImaRobot]

Then that's a change since Forza 4, and without having tried it, doesn't seem for the better. The beauty of a limited set of monthly events is that you focus the participation. You can be sure your friends list will provide a nice challenge for every event.

Shame.

It wasn't any different in Forza 4. There was community monthly events, but everything else was always available all the time. As it is right now, there is no shortage of lap times for me to beat. So I'm not seeing how its a bad thing.

Here's to hoping PD adds online leaderboards for every track. Was a bit sad only being able to compare yourself to yourself in GT. Although, with no system that sticks cars in certain brackets, all the leaderboard times would just be filled with the fastest car. So that's something that I hope get's revamped as well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Then that's a change since Forza 4, and without having tried it, doesn't seem for the better. The beauty of a limited set of monthly events is that you focus the participation. You can be sure your friends list will provide a nice challenge for every event.

Shame.

It is a shame that GT doesn't have both regular events and leaderboards for various car/track combinations. Best of both worlds. Once you've had your fill of the regular event, there are lots of leaderbaords to attack. Makes it easy to set up friendly competitions among friends on any leaderboards if they are sortable by "friends only".

 

[skazz]

i think that's a good summary:

• per car+track leaderboards are good (although when you can tune cars you need to set limits, like per class per track as Forza does).
• Regular community events (which Forza still has, thanks ImaRobot for the clarification) to compete against with friends are good.
• Not splitting up the user base across too many challenges is good.

I was just thinking about Assetto Corsa: you can specify the exact time, track temperature and track grip (how rubbered in it is). Trouble with that is tracking fastest laps against friends invariably requires you to race in optimal conditions (warm, maximum grip). However, if you put that all together you end up wanting a leaderboard for each car at each tuning level on each track with each potential type of track conditions at any time of day in the wet, mist, cloud or sunshine. Obviously that's too much data and split, so where do you draw the line?

 

[Johnnypenso]

i think that's a good summary:

• per car+track leaderboards are good (although when you can tune cars you need to set limits, like per class per track as Forza does).
• Regular community events (which Forza still has, thanks ImaRobot for the clarification) to compete against with friends are good.
• Not splitting up the user base across too many challenges is good.

I was just thinking about Assetto Corsa: you can specify the exact time, track temperature and track grip (how rubbered in it is). Trouble with that is tracking fastest laps against friends invariably requires you to race in optimal conditions (warm, maximum grip). However, if you put that all together you end up wanting a leaderboard for each car at each tuning level on each track with each potential type of track conditions at any time of day in the wet, mist, cloud or sunshine. Obviously that's too much data and split, so where do you draw the line?

In AC I use RSR Live Timing which IMO, would be a great model for any game to follow. Every car/track combination is used and you have various levels of assists and track conditions from wide open to PRO, with a couple in between. You can look at the rankings for each track as a whole or you can sort by PRO or other categories. That way you can compete with an equal level of assists and for the overall lead at each track with each car. It's also live updated, so as you complete a new fastest lap, it updates while the game is running. It's also free, supported by donations, so if a couple of guys working on a pc for lunch money can do something this cool, surely the wizards at PD could do something even more specatacular on the PS4.

 

[Polsixe]

Wake me up when September comes, er, I mean when the next Server Maintenance is announced. Must amortize that $59.99 a bit longer.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I don't see any reason to let go yet, you can still play other racing games while also going back to GT6 from time to time. GT6 is probably the most popular sim racing game still. Next GT game should be out within a year or two and may be the best racing game ever created, I really hope they can top pCARS and Assetto Corsa in physics and FFB department though but for sounds and graphics, it seems like it will be really awesome.

That's true. Although with Forza's model you're essentially paying for the same car twice or thrice (e.g. car as DLC for FM6, again in Horizon 3, then from launch on FM7). Personally I find that a bit too much. GT's development rate is slow as hell, but at least PD doesn't do DLC sprees. So when you buy GT7, you'll know it has ~200 new cars that hasn't been seen before.

I find GT development quite rapid and really efficient, maybe best in the genre.

In AC I use RSR Live Timing which IMO, would be a great model for any game to follow. Every car/track combination is used and you have various levels of assists and track conditions from wide open to PRO, with a couple in between. You can look at the rankings for each track as a whole or you can sort by PRO or other categories. That way you can compete with an equal level of assists and for the overall lead at each track with each car. It's also live updated, so as you complete a new fastest lap, it updates while the game is running. It's also free, supported by donations, so if a couple of guys working on a pc for lunch money can do something this cool, surely the wizards at PD could do something even more specatacular on the PS4.

GT5P leaderboards would be awesome to have back again, shame GT5 or GT6 doesn't have them but this post makes it seem like they will be back in the next game: Link

 

[bremics]

That's true. Although with Forza's model you're essentially paying for the same car twice or thrice (e.g. car as DLC for FM6, again in Horizon 3, then from launch on FM7). Personally I find that a bit too much. GT's development rate is slow as hell, but at least PD doesn't do DLC sprees. So when you buy GT7, you'll know it has ~200 new cars that hasn't been seen before.

GT6 got 126 new cars over GT5, including duplicates, a standard (the Jag sedan), the NASCAR's (too be fair FM6 did the same thing with the Formula-E), the camouflage Corvette and lost some standards such as the Jensen.

I expect a lot less than you from GT7 in terms of cars and content.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Since Forza is basically doubling the rate of release of GT, that would be FM10 and GT8 or FM14 and GT10, whichever you prefer. Now that I think about it, with a new game every 2 years, and the Forza Horizon series in there too, it might be enough to keep one going on a single console because the fresh, new content just keeps rolling in much more regularly.

Forza releasing every 2yrs means we could have GT7 and Forza7 releasing on the same year. But GT5 had dynamic time of day and weather in 2010 and Forza6 in 2015 is still not having it on a newer console let alone 360 IMHO there is no point in releasing game every 2yrs if there is not enough things they can change. GT7 I think we are going to see it and I do not see any reason why they should follow the pattern of 2yrs and DLC like every other games.
I really hope they do not rush GT7 and then provide updates to improve it rather than moving to DLC or GT8 immediately



Few days back I saw there are still more than 100K people in GT6 time trail I agree with skazz, GT community is just much bigger than other games. So obviously not everyone is letting it go.

 

[Imari]

I find GT development quite rapid and really efficient, maybe best in the genre.

In what sense?

 

[bremics]

Forza releasing every 2yrs means we could have GT7 and Forza7 releasing on the same year. But GT5 had dynamic time of day and weather in 2010 and Forza6 in 2015 is still not having it on a newer console let alone 360 IMHO there is no point in releasing game every 2yrs if there is not enough things they can change. GT7 I think we are going to see it and I do not see any reason why they should follow the pattern of 2yrs and DLC like every other games.
I really hope they do not rush GT7 and then provide updates to improve it rather than moving to DLC or GT8 immediately



Few days back I saw there are still more than 100K people in GT6 time trail I agree with skazz, GT community is just much bigger than other games. So obviously not everyone is letting it go.

And Forza has had competent AI, solid 60 FPS/1080p, online leaderboards and a liverly editor since 2007. Also I can still play said game and place on the online boards nearly 9 years later.

They also got rid of standards in 2009.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

In what sense?

In every sense. They seem to be the most forward thinking developer in the genre.

 

[Com Fox]

In every sense. They seem to be the most forward thinking developer in the genre.

I'm sure if not communicating with fans, making promises they can't keep as well as relying on updates to fix game issues is forward thinking.

 

[bremics]

In every sense. They seem to be the most forward thinking developer in the genre.

How so? By keeping and using assets from 2001? Including font, cars and tracks? By adding the ability to drive the moon rover for an hour?

Other than VGT, they've been doing the exact same thing for almost 15 years.

That's not a bad thing of course, good graphics/physics and lots of cars/tracks is obviously great for a racing game.

But other than the basics, the AI is likely the same as it's been the last decade, features like drag racing has been removed, online leaderboards which are in basically every racing game from PS2/XBOX onwards are still absent, course maker and B-SPEC from the previous title on the same console are missing (if you think the "B-SPEC" in GT6 compares in anyway to the separate mode in GT5 where you hire and train your own team [for lack of better term] while watching them grow...)...

Gran Turismo hasn't changed since the beginning. Was it forward thinking then? Absolutely.

+edit+
GTAcademy I guess? I kinda ignore that since my country is excluded and even if it wasn't I'm not one of the 0.01% who have a chance in hell of making it.

 

[cjr3559]

And Forza has had competent AI, solid 60 FPS/1080p, online leaderboards and a liverly editor since 2007. Also I can still play said game and place on the online boards nearly 9 years later.

They also got rid of standards in 2009.

And to keep going around and around ad infinitum, Forza still doesn't have dynamic weather and time on their third generation console no less. You'd think they could accomplish this by their 6th title.

(EDIT: I added the condescending laughing smiley for JohnnyPenso)

 

[skazz]

And Forza has had competent AI, solid 60 FPS/1080p, online leaderboards and a liverly editor since 2007. Also I can still play said game and place on the online boards nearly 9 years later.

They also got rid of standards in 2009.

Um, the Forza games on Xbox 360 were 720p, remember (with a crapload of jaggies in order to hit 60 FPS). Forza only moved to 1080p on the Xbox One in 2013.

 

[Imari]

In every sense. They seem to be the most forward thinking developer in the genre.

Being forward thinking and being rapid and efficient are not even slightly the same thing.

I could see how one might label them forward thinking, and that's probably an interesting discussion as to which parts of their design are legitimately ahead of the curve and will be considered a standard part of the genre in 5 to 10 years, and which parts are just experimental.

But rapid and efficient are not two adjectives I would use to describe them. For the obvious reasons that their development cycles are currently some of the longest in the genre, as measured by GT5 and the arguably still incomplete GT6, and as measured by their rate of car/track production.

Um, the Forza games on Xbox 360 were 720p, remember (with a crapload of jaggies in order to hit 60 FPS). Forza only moved to 1080p on the Xbox One in 2013.

Both Forza and GT made sacrifices last gen to meet graphical goals. Forza was a solid 60fps and scaled up a lot to 1080p. GT was a wobbly 60fps and only scaled up a little bit to full 1080p.

They both had the same idea and the same approach, it's just that one optimised for a solid frame rate and one preferred less graphical artifacts. Swings and roundabouts.

If FM4 wasn't 1080p, then neither was GT5 and GT6. Which means that Gran Turismo is still yet to reach proper 1080p in 2015. You take your pick on how you'd like to sell it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And to keep going around and around ad infinitum, Forza still doesn't have dynamic weather and time on their third generation console no less. You'd think they could accomplish this by their 6th title.

(EDIT: I added the condescending laughing smiley for JohnnyPenso)

Tradeoffs. All games make them. Dynamic time and weather is about the only thing I can see where Forza is behind, but it's a tradeoff they've made to achieve a rock solid 1080/60. Same reason they don't have 40 cars on track and Project Cars uses only 80k polygons in their cars. Same reason GT6 has no standing starts and the worst AI in all of sim racing but arguably is the best looking racing game on the console. I'm guessing that if we had a poll, most people would have traded off dynamic weather for better AI in GT6 if that was an option. You can have lots of bells and whistles, but if the core of gameplay is weak, the game is weak.