Is SRF really that unrealistic?

[Scaff]

To decide which grip level is more realistic you can compare real & game laptimes. That way you'll find even without SRF there is too much grip.

Lap time will not give you a measure of what tyre is most realistic in terms of grip at all, lap time comparisons are pretty much worthless in this regard, due to a large number of factors.

Not least of which would be that you could have a modelled tyre that has too little longitudinal grip and too little lateral grip (or the opposite), give close to 'real' lap time and yet still be totally out in terms of grip and performance.

Much bigger factors are difference in track temperature, humidity, surface make-up (how rubbered in it is), fear factor, etc.

Lap time comparisons are simply not a good tool for this at all.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

When I make replicas, I always built the car to spec as in real life, then I fitted comfort medium tires, from there I will drive and tune it, when I have access to real life onboard recording, I use that as reference when driving from driving line, gear changes and cornering speed. Usually I'll find the tires that consistently gives very close lap time to real life quickly from between comfort medium and soft to sports medium. I don't drive like those aliens, I let go off the throttle when shifting gears, blip on downshift, to make it a bit slower in shifting as I used stick

If these are meaningless, then I should stop making replicas

 

[FussyFez]

But is that with or without SRF?

Without. No question

 

[CRANK_U1]

lol leave them be @et_ These are non-srf worshippers here. You ill never convince these people.

 

[et_]

I've built many replicas, some of my Best Motoring cars replica can be very close in lap time, I compared cornering speed, gear change and lines taken from onboard video to my replay, they are very close, I also made the replica in as close as possible in terms of power, weight, gear ratio, suspension and LSD. Some of the quickest tuned car from Best Motoring usually uses comfort soft for normal tires in Best Motoring lap, while when the tuned car IRL Best Motoring uses S tires, the equivalent is sports medium in GT6. I never need to use sports soft, which I consider close to racing hard slick IRL. GT6 stock car tire that came as default usually need to go down 1 level or 2 to get closer to real life road tire.

All of course SRF OFF, no aids ( no brake assist ).

You say shift points, racing lines, corner speeds is about the same as IRL, but who's driving? give the car to an alien and all those things will be completely different.


edit: @CRANK_U1 : I kind of agree with them, there should not be a magic button to increase grip unrealistically, but I'm not convinced thats what SRF is, even tho thats what it says.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You say shift points, racing lines, corner speeds is about the same as IRL, but who's driving? give the car to an alien and all those things will be completely different.

Know the term replicate My aim is not to beat the real life lap time, but to get close to it, if you try my replicas, particularly the Best Motoring ones, you should have better idea.

If an alien is driving, the lap time would be much faster, as usually alien don't drive like they would in real life, they often exploit the game to get as quick as possible like in GT Academy or TTs. Then the only way is to drop the tire another level

 

[et_]

Know the term replicate My aim is not to beat the real life lap time, but to get close to it, if you try my replicas, particularly the Best Motoring ones, you should have better idea.

If an alien is driving, the lap time would be much faster, as usually alien don't drive like they would in real life, they often exploit the game to get as quick as possible like in GT Academy or TTs. Then the only way is to drop the tire another level

Of course not, I get that, but if its possible to make that much time just by exploiting the game, then the game itself is'nt realistic enough. and the difference between alien speed and normal people speed is smaller with SRF ON.

 

[ezfaun]

Your tunes feel just like my replica tunes from forza. That in itself makes me a happy customer. Cause my xbox broke..

 

[Vegard]

lol leave them be @et_ These are non-srf worshippers here. You ill never convince these people.

Great contribution to the tread 👍

Perhaps you could share your observations on how SRF functions instead of just posting flame bait?

 

[Z1-AV69]

I think it's the seat of the pants feedback that makes the real life easier. But I would still disagree with you.
If you make the penalty for going off the track the same in real life and the game the lap times would be similar.
Give me a supercar and I know I have to pay for repairs if I trash it.
Give me the same car in GT and make a deal I would also have to pay thousands if I crash.
When trying to replicate my real life car in GT6 I go for SH or SM tires and no SRF. The car is 1500kg BMW with 400hp and LSD. It feels closer to real life than comfort tires and SRF on.

I fully agree seat of pants feedback etc. is what makes real life easier. My question is if the simulation should do better in offering replacements or compensations. SRF may be a tool for that.
Of course there is also a strong argument against that since everyone had to learn to drive real cars too. I remember when I drove a real car for the first time (long time ago), it was hard.

I don't think you would get the same laptimes, you would pay more from driving in game. You don't get that instinct of danger or the better feedback just from playing mind tricks with money.

@Scaff:
Sure laptimes aren't the be all end all for comparison. Especially in GT6 the main difference seems to be from less drag and not grip. @Stotty did a comparison between the best McLaren 12C lap in mike's list and the Sport Auto Supertest. Apex speeds at low speed were quite similar, but in fast corners (and topspeeds) GT6 was much faster.
Surely all the points you mention make a difference, the question is if big enough to explain the difference in laptimes without assuming more grip (at high speeds) in game?

 

[Scaff]

Surely all the points you mention make a difference, the question is if big enough to explain the difference in laptimes without assuming more grip (at high speeds) in game?

More than enough.

I've driven the same car at the same track one day after the other and a temp change of a few degrees is more than enough to alter laptimes. If you can get that kind of variation in the same place, with the same car in reality then comparisons to a sim (any sim) are next to worthless in terms of what tyre is realistic.

 

[Z1-AV69]

More than enough.

I've driven the same car at the same track one day after the other and a temp change of a few degrees is more than enough to alter laptimes. If you can get that kind of variation in the same place, with the same car in reality then comparisons to a sim (any sim) are next to worthless in terms of what tyre is realistic.

The comparison post is here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/my-obsession-with-the-nordschleife.302221/page-8#post-9338063

The difference was 15 mp/h at Flugplatz e.g. There is a video at SportAuto with some impressions from Horst's lap, the weather wasn't as sunny as GT6 but dry track. I'm lacking the real life experience, but the difference seems too big to me?

 

[Scaff]

The comparison post is here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/my-obsession-with-the-nordschleife.302221/page-8#post-9338063

The difference was 15 mp/h at Flugplatz e.g. There is a video at SportAuto with some impressions from Horst's lap, the weather wasn't as sunny as GT6 but dry track. I'm lacking the real life experience, but the difference seems too big to me?

That's exactly my point. The differences between reality and sims are too much to be able to make any comparisons worthwhile.

 

[et_]

That's exactly my point. The differences between reality and sims are too much to be able to make any comparisons worthwhile.

and thats why the SRF ON option could be the most realistic.

 

[Scaff]

and thats why the SRF ON option could be the most realistic.

I don't even remotely see how lap time comparisons being a poor judge of a sim accuracy supports that case at all.

 

[et_]

I don't even remotely see how lap time comparisons being a poor judge of a sim accuracy supports that case at all.

people are saying SRF gives unrealistic ammount of grip, and that may be true, but its the way the grip is being deliverd that I think feels closer to reality with SRF on. throw all speed, laptimes and total grip out of the window, and that is what you end up with.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

people are saying SRF gives unrealistic ammount of grip, and that may be true, but its the way the grip is being deliverd that I think feels closer to reality with SRF on. throw all speed, laptimes and total grip out of the window, and that is what you end up with.

The way the grip is being delivered is unrealistic when SRF is on. In real life you don't get rewarded for breaking traction heavily, there is no magic fairy dust being sprinkled on car tyres when trying to drive car to its limit and beyond. In real life you will back out of throttle enough to gain some traction back and same goes for GT6 without SRF but with SRF, you get even more aggressive with throttle application to use all the advantage SRF brings.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Of course not, I get that, but if its possible to make that much time just by exploiting the game, then the game itself is'nt realistic enough. and the difference between alien speed and normal people speed is smaller with SRF ON.

In my experience that's not true. In the few TT's that I've run with SRF vs. those without SRF, my lap time differential from the top to me is about the same and my ranking is relatively the same. And with or without SRF it's all the same names at the top of the leaderboard. SRF moves the bar equally for all people. Slower people don't gain exponentially vs. aliens, at least not in my experience. A guy like @doodlemonoply is routinely about 2 seconds faster than me in TT's (depending on track length of course and when I make a concerted effort) regardless of the car/tire/aids combination. Of course he's at the top...and I'm not...

 

[t3kc0h]

So, I have this theory, it may sound stupid at first, but think about it. What if... SRF ON is the way PD recreated as the most realistic, and SRF OFF is a unrealistic tool to reduce grip? The reason I even considered this is that in the latest FT-1 seasonal event, the fastest way was to drive with a tiny bit of sliding, and it lets go much smoother too, so you can balance the car on that tiny bit of slide through the corner quite easily. with SRF ON the car grips more, and when it finally lets go, it lets go more violently. and with SRF ON, any form of sliding WILL slow you down. To me, that sounds like the more realistic option.

Look at it this way, you can make a chart of how tyre slip affects the grip, and the line would look roughly like the ones below, even IRL. This is just an estimation from my point of view, the lines could be slightly different, but what line is closest to reality SRF or non SRF? Its just a matter of figuring out how the line should be drawn to reflect reality. Anyway, this is somewhat how I experience it in game:

What I'm trying to say is, maybe the blue line is the one closest to reality.

Thoughts on that guys? Mind blown or am I just an idiot with a keyboard?

SRF does not increase grip, it is like TCS in a way to where it reduces power to the wheels to keep from sliding. It does not reduce grip when taken off, but there is no artificial dampening of the power to the wheels.

 

[et_]

The way the grip is being delivered is unrealistic when SRF is on. In real life you don't get rewarded for breaking traction heavily, there is no magic fairy dust being sprinkled on car tyres when trying to drive car to its limit and beyond. In real life you will back out of throttle enough to gain some traction back and same goes for GT6 without SRF but with SRF, you get even more aggressive with throttle application to use all the advantage SRF brings.

I'd thought you'd realized by now that: Yes, SRF changes how grip is being delivered, and yes, the grip is higher. But it does NOT reward you for breaknig traction!! maybe it does'nt punish you as much, but keeping it within traction limits will benefit you even with SRF on! God damnit people, you're starting to piss me off, sure I need to drive more without SRF, but you sure as hell need to drive more WITH SRF ON.

In my experience that's not true. In the few TT's that I've run with SRF vs. those without SRF, my lap time differential from the top to me is about the same and my ranking is relatively the same. And with or without SRF it's all the same names at the top of the leaderboard. SRF moves the bar equally for all people. Slower people don't gain exponentially vs. aliens, at least not in my experience. A guy like @doodlemonoply is routinely about 2 seconds faster than me in TT's (depending on track length of course and when I make a concerted effort) regardless of the car/tire/aids combination. Of course he's at the top...and I'm not...

Maybe, It just seems to me that the times is tighter when SRF is off, but that could be because of a shorter track...

SRF does not increase grip, it is like TCS in a way to where it reduces power to the wheels to keep from sliding. It does not reduce grip when taken off, but there is no artificial dampening of the power to the wheels.

Now thats just plain wrong!

 

[Z1-AV69]

In my experience that's not true. In the few TT's that I've run with SRF vs. those without SRF, my lap time differential from the top to me is about the same and my ranking is relatively the same. And with or without SRF it's all the same names at the top of the leaderboard. SRF moves the bar equally for all people. Slower people don't gain exponentially vs. aliens, at least not in my experience. A guy like @doodlemonoply is routinely about 2 seconds faster than me in TT's (depending on track length of course and when I make a concerted effort) regardless of the car/tire/aids combination. Of course he's at the top...and I'm not...

That's actually a strong point for the theory SRF is just flat out more grip or any other linear improvement. If it would be the magic assist some like to make it, my guess would be the super-aliens could exploit it more.

(I do Seasonals just for the paintchip and never use SRF somewhere else, I can't tell.)

 

[Scaff]

people are saying SRF gives unrealistic ammount of grip, and that may be true, but its the way the grip is being deliverd that I think feels closer to reality with SRF on. throw all speed, laptimes and total grip out of the window, and that is what you end up with.

No they are not.

People are saying that SRF magically gives you more grip when you reach a certain limit. I'm not sure why you have repeatedly ignored this point over and over again, enough people have said it now yet you seem determined to ignore them.

To be blunt i you think that the manner in which SRF delivers grip is close to reality I can only presume that your track time is very limited in regard to actually pushing a car up to and past the limits of slip. I've spend a fair amount of my working life on track and proving grounds and SRF doesn't deliver grip in anything like a realistic manner.

You started this thread based on some seriously flawed assumptions, that when pointed out you have also pretty much ignored, and seem intent on continuing in the same vein. Now moving to the point of changing the 'opposing view' in an attempt to support your own.

You have provided no evidence at all to support your claim, either in regard to the level of grip that SRF provides or the way in which it provides it is realistic. The GT series has some issues in regards to tyre physics, but switching SRF on certainly doesn't improve things in terms of reality at all.

 

[t3kc0h]

God damnit people, you're starting to piss me off, sure I need to drive more without SRF, but you sure as hell need to drive more WITH SRF ON.

Considering I drift, this isn't an option.

 

[Scaff]

God damnit people, you're starting to piss me off, sure I need to drive more without SRF, but you sure as hell need to drive more WITH SRF ON.

Cut the attitude now.

Attack another member in this manner again and you will be shown the door.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I'd thought you'd realized by now that: Yes, SRF changes how grip is being delivered, and yes, the grip is higher. But it does NOT reward you for breaknig traction!! maybe it does'nt punish you as much, but keeping it within traction limits will benefit you even with SRF on! God damnit people, you're starting to piss me off, sure I need to drive more without SRF, but you sure as hell need to drive more WITH SRF ON.

It kicks in only when it senses breaking off traction, that is why using lower gears is generally quickest with SRF on. I have quite a lot of experience with SRF on as it is forced on quite a bit in the game and most seasonals are with it allowed. If you drive the same car and tyres with and without SRF, you will see what I mean.

If you look at how you drive without it, it is more realistic techniques, now then drive car with SRF on and you will see at same point you may be putting power down with more progression, you have a little throttle progression then flat out. When the physics realise you have wheelspin, instead of slowing you down, it gives you grip as a reward. There is an operating window where it works, if you go to over the top then it bites but if it didn't do that then it would be a bit ridiculous as imagine if it meant you will always have perfect traction no matter what you do, it would become too arcadey.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's actually a strong point for the theory SRF is just flat out more grip or any other linear improvement. If it would be the magic assist some like to make it, my guess would be the super-aliens could exploit it more.

(I do Seasonals just for the paintchip and never use SRF somewhere else, I can't tell.)

No and no..sorry. It's not more grip all around otherwise it would feel like going up a tire grade or two because it makes that much difference in lap times. What it does is this which is not the same as just more grip:

If you look at how you drive without it, it is more realistic techniques, now then drive car with SRF on and you will see at same point you may be putting power down with more progression, you have a little throttle progression then flat out. When the physics realise you have wheelspin, instead of slowing you down, it gives you grip as a reward. There is an operating window where it works, if you go to over the top then it bites but if it didn't do that then it would be a bit ridiculous as imagine if it meant you will always have perfect traction no matter what you do, it would become too arcadey.

And no, super aliens can't exploit it any more than we can. We adapt to driving with SRF just as super aliens do, taking 2 or 3 seconds a lap off, but we're still 2, 3, 4 or more seconds behind due to our overall limitations in skills, reflexes, experience etc.

 

[et_]

No they are not.

People are saying that SRF magically gives you more grip when you reach a certain limit. I'm not sure why you have repeatedly ignored this point over and over again, enough people have said it now yet you seem determined to ignore them.

To be blunt i you think that the manner in which SRF delivers grip is close to reality I can only presume that your track time is very limited in regard to actually pushing a car up to and past the limits of slip. I've spend a fair amount of my working life on track and proving grounds and SRF doesn't deliver grip in anything like a realistic manner.

You started this thread based on some seriously flawed assumptions, that when pointed out you have also pretty much ignored, and seem intent on continuing in the same vein. Now moving to the point of changing the 'opposing view' in an attempt to support your own.

You have provided no evidence at all to support your claim, either in regard to the level of grip that SRF provides or the way in which it provides it is realistic. The GT series has some issues in regards to tyre physics, but switching SRF on certainly doesn't improve things in terms of reality at all.

1. if SRF gives you magic grip at a certain point, the transition should be more noticable, if grip physics is altered altogether, who says one way is right and the other is'nt. GT6 does'nt feel that realistic no matter if its on or off.

2. my track time is limited, although I have been to a track a number of times, that still gives me some experience.

3. I'm not ignoring anything, but people are not reading OP/misunderstands it. and the responds from some people are not accurate, Fact is we're all agreed on most parts.

4. I have not shown any evidence, because there is no evidence, but I dont think you have any evidence to prove otherwise either?

5. I've not changed the opposing view one bit as far as I'm concerned.

6. I'm sorry for the atitude, but it was not directed to anyone in particular.

It kicks in only when it senses breaking off traction, that is why using lower gears is generally quickest with SRF on. I have quite a lot of experience with SRF on as it is forced on quite a bit in the game and most seasonals are with it allowed. If you drive the same car and tyres with and without SRF, you will see what I mean.

If you look at how you drive without it, it is more realistic techniques, now then drive car with SRF on and you will see at same point you may be putting power down with more progression, you have a little throttle progression then flat out. When the physics realise you have wheelspin, instead of slowing you down, it gives you grip as a reward. There is an operating window where it works, if you go to over the top then it bites but if it didn't do that then it would be a bit ridiculous as imagine if it meant you will always have perfect traction no matter what you do, it would become too arcadey.

First off, sorry for the atitude, I hope you did'nt take it the wrong way as it was'nt directed to you per se.

Now, to be fair, a little bit of wheelspin benefits you without SRF aswell, and my point is, it feels like, in fact, SRF OFF allows for a bit more wheelspin before punishing you. and maybe thats because SRF is giving more grip, so the tyres dont let go but when you slip to much, that extra grip is removed.

 

[Z1-AV69]

No and no..sorry. It's not more grip all around otherwise it would feel like going up a tire grade or two because it makes that much difference in lap times. What it does is this which is not the same as just more grip:

And no, super aliens can't exploit it any more than we can. We adapt to driving with SRF just as super aliens do, taking 2 or 3 seconds a lap off, but we're still 2, 3, 4 or more seconds behind due to our overall limitations in skills, reflexes, experience etc.

From what I know I agree it adds grip when you would need it because you lost it. But that has two effects:
1. the true limit is a certain amount further "out", which explains why the super-aliens get the same gap. Even "normal" Aliens just reach that outer limit just like the old.
2. it makes the limit softer or wider because you feel the (same?) grip at the normal level and again the SRF-step further out. This makes it easier to drive with SRF but it doesn't matter at all at the very competitive levels.

The second part is why I think SRF could be a viable assist for less trained players. I quoted the InsideSimRacing comparison between GT6 and Forza 5 on page 3 and his critique on GT6 was a lack of feedback for the limit of grip. With enough practice you learn to be sensible enough, sure. But GT might be a little too hard in this regard to be realistic. Just to be clear: I don't say SRF is the realistic way to do it, probably not. But as compensation for some deficits of the simulation it might be justified.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

First off, sorry for the atitude, I hope you did'nt take it the wrong way as it was'nt directed to you per se.

Now, to be fair, a little bit of wheelspin benefits you without SRF aswell, and my point is, it feels like, in fact, SRF OFF allows for a bit more wheelspin before punishing you.

No problem.

So you answered your thread question with that, in real life when at say a racing track, do you think you are going faster when you get more wheelspin or less? What would you do in that situation, would you push even harder on throttle or less?

 

[et_]

No problem.

So you answered your thread question with that, in real life when at say a racing track, do you think you are going faster when you get more wheelspin or less? What would you do in that situation, would you push even harder on throttle or less?

Less of course, breaking traction slows you down, both IRL, SRF ON and OFF.