Is tyre degradation so high in GT5 thats its unrealistic? PD read!

[TCSdisable]

Was driving style always the same? Racing hard tires in the photos above appear to have suffered more from consumption than soft ones.

All powered by B-spec Drivers (33 and 34 class, Cool or Hot are 2)

just have some spinning during race.

But in my opinion...
On High Downforce wheel, how come these Tires could survival over 30 laps and All compound wear lay off almost are same?

Also, this all the time spin over 400 Km/h...

 

[novcze]

I spent 2 hours of testing on Nordschleife with tuned GT500 car.
After 2 laps (some 41km) on Racing Soft tires were almost completely gone and I had to drive VERY carefully in last quarter of the circuit. It's better to make pit stop every lap which is ridiculous, even the softest Pirelli F1 tires lasts much longer than that irl.

Racing Medium are fine for 2 laps, Racing Hard 3 maybe 4 laps, that's laughable.

We did race on 24h Nurburgring before update, 12 laps, we were on RM tires and we could do 4 laps on one set easily. Imagine same race after update, pit stop every 2 laps, that's five pit stops instead of two. Real pit stop simulator I guess.

 

[novcze]

I know, this is secret evil plan how to turn us into B-Spec bobs, now we have to brake way early, take corner without pushing and accelerate very gently

 

[atiger]

Don't give up yet! This tire wear issue is a game breaker for me and a lot of other people too; just google it and see for yourself. It shouldn't be too hard to fix... I hope LoL!

It certainly is for me. I've been playing this game almost exclusively since day one. No more. PD wrecked the game for me with this tire wear update.

 

[Zer0]

No drift involved, just safe profesional track driving with brand new stock tyres(mostly comfort medium in GT5).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGaqLQBnUM&t=37m45s

Looking at durability alone, while the average road car tyre is designed to have a lifetime of thousands of kilometres, an F1 tyre is built to deliver maximum performance for around 200km.

-Does driver style influence tyre design or selection?
Sometimes we see some differences in the wear rates and the balance, and that leads to adapting tyre fittings to each driver in terms of pressure, balance of pressure, and sometimes a number of laps for scrubbing the tyres. In some cases, even the direct tyre choice or compound can be different.

-Is a smooth track surface usually better on tyre wear?
It depends. If you have grip then you have less wear on this type of track, but if your grip is not sufficient you can slide, and as soon as you slide you have a lot of wear, so the answer is never known in advance. A smooth track can be very aggressive on tyres as soon as you loose grip and have a lot of sliding. A long sweeping curve is also more demanding, rather than a chicane.
Link

 

[Elwood74]

They are right to attempt to address the wear rates as they were wrong before. Race hard tires had virtually same wear rate as Race softs. But very different lap times.

For reference:
A set of Toyo RA-1's or R888's can be considered Race hards. Yield me ~8 days on track (~2hrs a day).

A set of Hoosier R6's, soft in comparison (but not 'pro' soft), have half the life of the Toyo's

I try to run them till they're nearly corded for cost savings. But their competitive performance is done by half-life.

'Spirited driving' on the street is leagues away from the abuse seen on track. A simple autocross is the equivalent of a month of street driving. Track temps/slip angles would shred them (tread pattern really hurts).

LeMans tire may be triple stinted but they certainly aren't what you'd fit into a GT5 category of 'Race tire'. Much longer endurance profile, whereas normal race tires are designed for max grip on lap 1-5. Endurance races also have a LONG time to rubber-in. This greatly improves grip.

Tire grip and wear rates are an incredibly complex issue. This update does attempt to distinguish the wear rate for lap time trade off. Durability just needs to be increased as a whole.

 

[godlameroso]

Agreed, I think tire wear for rs should be the same as before, and rm and rh should last 1.3 and 1.7x longer respectively. Has anyone tried the wear rates on sport and comfort tires, or were only the racing tires changed?

I also agree with the comments about giving us accelerated wear but as an option not as the de facto setting.

In either case I can't play as I'm on vacation, hopefully they will have addressed this issue by the time I get back.

It should be that you can use tire strategy to win not just slap on the grippiest tires because they give you a two or three second advantage per lap. I'm sure PD can sort this issue easily, give it a week or two.

 

[Disavowed]

No drift involved, just safe profesional track driving with brand new stock tyres(mostly comfort medium in GT5).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGaqLQBnUM&t=37m45s

That's a good example of why you should use shaved tires for track days. Street tires with full treads get tread squirm which causes inconsistent grip/handling when driving at the limit. This same squirm also causes tires to overheat rapidly resulting in the "chunking" of the tires like in the photos. The STi comes stock with tires that I would consider to be "sport medium". Notice the shallower depth of the treads and the large tread blocks on the outer side of the tire. My stock STi tires lasted all of 12,000 km in spirited street driving.

Setting up the suspension with a little bit more negative camber for track days helps tremendously at the cost of slightly decreased tire life during normal driving... or you could pop for a set of adjustable camber plates.

Edit: BTW, the RX-8 is RWD and not FWD

 

[shirakawaa]

"chunking" of the tires like in the photos. The STi comes stock with tires that I would consider to be "sport medium".

No, not at all, I disagree completely.

If you check the accompanying images in the tire selection screen in GT5 you'll see that sports tires are semi-slick tires with a very limited amount of grooves. They also perform very poorly on wet surfaces compared to comfort tires, confirming that they're intended to be tires specific for trackday usage.

It's the "comfort" and "sports" definition for tyres in GT5 that is highly misleading and confusing. Also the fact that most cars come with one tire grade higher than what they would be supposed to have, doesn't help.

The STi in the photo above might have GT5-equivalent Comfort Soft tires, while the Integra or the RX-8 Confort Medium, in my opinion.

 

[Disavowed]

No, not at all, I disagree completely.

If you check the accompanying images in the tire selection screen in GT5 you'll see that sports tires are semi-slick tires with a very limited amount of grooves. They also perform very poorly on wet surfaces compared to comfort tires, confirming that they're intended to be tires specific for trackday usage.

It's the "comfort" and "sports" definition for tyres in GT5 that is highly misleading and confusing. Also the fact that most cars come with one tire grade higher than what they would be supposed to have, doesn't help.

The STi in the photo above might have GT5-equivalent Comfort Soft tires, while the Integra or the RX-8 Confort Medium, in my opinion.

Ok, so in GT5, "Sports" tires are like these?

http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/detail/advan_a048

 

[shirakawaa]

Ok, so in GT5, "Sports" tires are like these?

http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/detail/advan_a048

I don't have quick access to GT5 right now, but I think this is exactly the model depicted in-game.

 

[dr_slump]

LeMans tire may be triple stinted but they certainly aren't what you'd fit into a GT5 category of 'Race tire'. Much longer endurance profile, whereas normal race tires are designed for max grip on lap 1-5. Endurance races also have a LONG time to rubber-in. This greatly improves grip.

What do you actually want to say with this? It gives absolutely no information about the lifetime. When would they have to pit with these tires?
And what are "normal" race tires in your eyes?

Ok, so in GT5, "Sports" tires are like these?

http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/detail/advan_a048

Yes, Sport Medium or Soft I guess.

No drift involved, just safe profesional track driving with brand new stock tyres(mostly comfort medium in GT5).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGaqLQBnUM&t=37m45s

No surprise at all. Normal street tires aren't built for those conditions.
To say it direct: Your problem if you race with these tires.

 

[YukinoSuzuka]

I think PD made a small mistake, that's all !!

Now it's very difficult to find a good set up and today I will race on The Nordschleife in a Hot Hatch Challenge. Before the update it was possible to race 3 or 4 laps and do a 1 stop strategy in a race of 8 laps.

I can't race on RaceSofts this event without stopping 3 times ! That's 2 laps and the tyres are completely gone. 50km's on Racing Tyres is not realistic at all.

In my opinion it's very simple for PD : Make the Racing Soft-tyres like they were before the 2.02 Update and make the duration of the other tyres longer by each type of tyres and grade.

 

[Elwood74]

What do you actually want to say with this? It gives absolutely no information about the lifetime. When would they have to pit with these tires?
And what are "normal" race tires in your eyes?

Answer to that question is the question itself. In F1, Softs go ~10 laps (~15 minutes), 2 steps in hardness up 15 laps (25 minutes). Endurance softs 1 hour, Endurance hard 2 hours. What tire should they use? Compromise has to be made somewhere as it is just a game. It'd be nuts to have a selection of compounds for every single class of racing represented in GT5.

 

[Zer0]

I can't race on RaceSofts this event without stopping 3 times ! That's 2 laps and the tyres are completely gone. 50km's on Racing Tyres is not realistic at all.

Race soft tyres are also not realistic grip wise. I don't know why most people keep expecting realistic wear on them.

A simple test comparing a real lap will tell you how far are from a real slick tyre.

For a more realistic wear first you will need to find the closest tyre regarding realistic grip.

People need to understand that tyre selection in GT5 do not represent the same real world tyre compounds or properties. All tyre grades are upscaled in grip and wear, being the R compounds in GT5 non existant in the real world.

Also the driving style and driving aids now makes a massive difference on how can last the tyres. That is more realism in the right tyres and exagerated realism in exagerated tyres. Mistakes and non smooth driving have magnificated wear consequences in the highest grip scale.

 

[Jav]

i really dont see the point in comparing gt5 to real life would never be the same this used to be a great game until update 2.2 i was all in how much time you spend twiking ur setup for exp. we just finish a gt 500 champ 30 laps those of us that spend lots of time twiking were able to do 15 laps in spa with rs tyres while others over did it with camber toe susp. manage 7 to 9 . what pd should have done increase grip and life exp. of the rm and rh tyres while leaving the racing soft alone 1 or 2 laps and ur tyres are dead thas popostruos.... most people dont do 20 or 30 laps they do 5 or 3 .... i personaly think that were pd must put their att its in the online servers no more lag desc. etc .
ps
PD u just killed gt5 now im just going to box my game until these problems are resolved....

100% agreed, is the league racers who are suffering the most from this huge mess, I we can only hope it gets fixed. If it doesn't I will very gladly throw GT5 in a shelf as soon as my series is completed and just do iRacing and rFactor wich are 100 times better anyways...

They are right to attempt to address the wear rates as they were wrong before. Race hard tires had virtually same wear rate as Race softs. But very different lap times.

For reference:
A set of Toyo RA-1's or R888's can be considered Race hards. Yield me ~8 days on track (~2hrs a day).

A set of Hoosier R6's, soft in comparison (but not 'pro' soft), have half the life of the Toyo's

I try to run them till they're nearly corded for cost savings. But their competitive performance is done by half-life.

'Spirited driving' on the street is leagues away from the abuse seen on track. A simple autocross is the equivalent of a month of street driving. Track temps/slip angles would shred them (tread pattern really hurts).

LeMans tire may be triple stinted but they certainly aren't what you'd fit into a GT5 category of 'Race tire'. Much longer endurance profile, whereas normal race tires are designed for max grip on lap 1-5. Endurance races also have a LONG time to rubber-in. This greatly improves grip.

Tire grip and wear rates are an incredibly complex issue. This update does attempt to distinguish the wear rate for lap time trade off. Durability just needs to be increased as a whole.

Oh God! The RA1 are the best tires ever!! Not the fastest R Compounds by any means, but my God were they kind on my pocket! I managed 1.5 seasons of TT and track days of 8 events per season consisting of practice on Saturday and timed sessions on Sundays, I only went out on 3 heats per day but that's a lot of miles compared to my brother's and other competitors using Hoosiers wich only lasted 2 weekends, but offcourse there was a good 2 second advantage from using Hoosiers...
Victoracers were good tires too, right in between the Toyos and Hoosiers in performance and durability.

Race soft tyres are also not realistic grip wise. I don't know why most people keep expecting realistic wear on them.

A simple test comparing a real lap will tell you how far are from a real slick tyre.

For a more realistic wear first you will need to find the closest tyre regarding realistic grip.

People need to understand that tyre selection in GT5 do not represent the same real world tyre compounds or properties. All tyre grades are upscaled in grip and wear, being the R compounds non existant in the real world.

Also the driving style and driving aids now makes a massive difference on how can last the tyres. That is more realism in the right tyres and exagerated realism in exagerated tyres. Mistakes and non smooth driving have magnificated wear consequences in the highest grip scale.

Dude GT5 is not realistic in anything, but it is a good entertaining game wich worked pretty well despite its many flaws, now this wear model is just a joke!

Do you even know what an R Compound tire is?

 

[dr_slump]

Answer to that question is the question itself. In F1, Softs go ~10 laps (~15 minutes), 2 steps in hardness up 15 laps (25 minutes). Endurance softs 1 hour, Endurance hard 2 hours. What tire should they use? Compromise has to be made somewhere as it is just a game. It'd be nuts to have a selection of compounds for every single class of racing represented in GT5.

Choosing an extreme isn't really a compromise.

 

[Jav]

Answer to that question is the question itself. In F1, Softs go ~10 laps (~15 minutes), 2 steps in hardness up 15 laps (25 minutes). Endurance softs 1 hour, Endurance hard 2 hours. What tire should they use? Compromise has to be made somewhere as it is just a game. It'd be nuts to have a selection of compounds for every single class of racing represented in GT5.

That would be sweet! But I'm afraid it just aint gonna happen in GT5 and I highly doubt it will on GT6 or any GT game for that matter... You might wanna try iRacing though!

 

[Zer0]

Dude GT5 is not realistic in anything,

It is in more than one thing if you understand how the game works and adjust it accordingly. Obviously if you play always with RS tyres is not much.

Do you even know what an R Compound tire is?

I know what it is not.

Real Life lap record (R) = 6:47,500

GT5 time (SM) = 6:47,362
GT5 time stock (RH) = 6:09
GT5 time (RS) = 5:5x ??

 

[dr_slump]

I know what it is not.

Real Life lap record (R) = 6:47,500

GT5 time (SM) = 6:47,362
GT5 time stock (RH) = 6:09
GT5 time (RS) = 5:5x ??

Car?

 

[Jav]

It is in more than one thing if you understand how the game works and adjust it accordingly. Obviously if you play always with RS tyres is not much.

Actually the only GT5 id do is league racing, we use RS on GT1/RH on Super GT and Comfort Softs on the GT86 league. Other than that all I do is iRacing/rFactor.
For the rare ocation on wich I play GT5 casualy I look for Nurb rooms with tuning restriction.

I know what it is not.

Real Life lap record (R) = 6:47,500

GT5 time (SM) = 6:47,362
GT5 time stock (RH) = 6:09
GT5 time (RS) = 5:5x ??

On your last post you said R Compunds doesn't exist on the real world, wich leads me to believe you have no clue what they are.
Lap times is not all of the experience. Do you really think the Zonda R is gonna spin its tires on 6th gear at 140 MPH? GT5's tire model is broken, physics engine is broken, GT5 is NOT a simulator by any means. What it is is a very entertaining game with somewhat accurate renditions.

 

[Zer0]

On your last post you said R Compunds doesn't exist on the real world, wich leads me to believe you have no clue what they are.

"People need to understand that tyre selection in GT5 do not represent the same real world tyre compounds or properties. All tyre grades are upscaled in grip and wear, being the R compounds (in GT5) non existant in the real world."

I made more clear now. I mean that GT5 R tyres extreme performance don't exist in the real world.

Lap times is not all of the experience. Do you really think the Zonda R is gonna spin its tires on 6th gear at 140 MPH? GT5's tire model is broken, physics engine is broken, GT5 is NOT a simulator by any means. What it is is a very entertaining game with somewhat accurate renditions.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4734300#post4734300
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq6V2H9tHo8

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Car?

Zonda-R, click on the times.

 

[Jav]

I made more clear now. I mean that GT5 R tyres extreme performance don't exist in the real world.

Now in that particular statement I agree with you 100%, but the problem the physics engine in GT5 has is that in order to somewhat replicate real world handling dynamics of a car you need to go to the extremes of the Race tire range.
That is why GT5 is not a simulator. GT5 is a very good game, but stills has some ways to go before honoring their claim to be the real driving simulator.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I'm annoyed by faster tire wear now, but I'll get used to it.

But they should have just increased what RM and RH can go by 5 and 10 laps respectively.

That way, fuel loads can be an added factor for races like Le Mans.

I really hope PD reverses the decision, and instead make the RMs and RHs last a lot longer than now.

 

[Jav]

I'm annoyed by faster tire wear now, but I'll get used to it.

But they should have just increased what RM and RH can go by 5 and 10 laps respectively.

That way, fuel loads can be an added factor for races like Le Mans.

I really hope PD reverses the decision, and instead make the RMs and RHs last a lot longer than now.

I can only hope they give us the ability to adjust wear to replicate that.

 

[Zer0]

Now in that particular statement I agree with you 100%, but the problem the physics engine in GT5 has is that in order to somewhat replicate real world handling dynamics of a car you need to go to the extremes of the Race tire range.
That is why GT5 is not a simulator. GT5 is a very good game, but stills has some ways to go before honoring their claim to be the real driving simulator.

Is not a sim because you need to change the default game tyres? the problem would be if GT5 only had an R selection of tyres but having a full range of lower grip tyres is not a problem in the game. Anyway everyone with their opinion.

Another interesting one:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5580059#post5580059

 

[2011Z]

I can only hope they give us the ability to adjust wear to replicate that.

I agree. The ability to adjust tire wear would be great, but I'd personally leave it where it is now. I really like the fast tire wear. Strategy and Racecraft have now become factors.. just like real racing.

 

[CSLACR]

I hear people saying RS tires have unrealistic grip so often...

The real life pole for SuperGT last year at Suzuka I'm told was a 1:51 something, can that be replicated with less then RS tires? I know 57-58's can be had on RH's, but I highly doubt 51's can be had with anything less then RS.

 

[Jav]

Is not a sim because you need to change the default game tyres? the problem will be if GT5 only had an R selection of tyres but having a full range of lower grip tyres is not a problem in the game. Anyway everyone with their opinion.

Another interesting one:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5580059#post5580059

Again you are only focusing on lap times, with no interest whatsoever on vehicle dynamics and handling capabilities and charachteristics.
I can tune a Ferrari 458 to go arround the Ring in the same time as a 458 GT, now does that makes the experience a true simulation of a 458 GT or a 458 road car at all? The answer is no, not in a million years! GT5 uses a set of 5-10 different car physics distributed across every car in the game as they see fit. Now tell me is that a real simulation?
The Sport tire range is great, so is the Comfort but they are good for street cars. When you step up to race cars from DTM up you really need the Race tire range to somewhat recreate what each car is capable of.
Now you mention the Zonda R using RH tires in stock form, designed by the game creators to be that way, do you honestly believe you understand and know the game better than the people who made it?

 

[Zer0]

Again you are only focusing on lap times, with no interest whatsoever on vehicle dynamics and handling capabilities and charachteristics.
I can tune a Ferrari 458 to go arround the Ring in the same time as a 458 GT, now does that makes the experience a true simulation of a 458 GT or a 458 road car at all? The answer is no, not in a million years! GT5 uses a set of 5-10 different car physics distributed across every car in the game as they see fit. Now tell me is that a real simulation?
The Sport tire range is great, so is the Comfort but they are good for street cars. When you step up to race cars from DTM up you really need the Race tire range to somewhat recreate what each car is capable of.

What lap times? you did not read my last links right? were all about handling.. the close lap times are a consequence of that.

One of the members of my small driving-community is a Croatian vice-champion in rally, he also drove numerous hill-climbs, asphalt rallies, drove hundreds of national and international races in rally and road and naturally he cloaked thousands of kilometers on race tracks driving many race-prepped machines.

We discussed many times regarding exactly that - how accurate can handling and tire-response are based on his experience and feeling of what car/tires are doing.

Of all games he drives and has driven, he finds Richard Burns Rally as having the best weight-physics ever created. However, as far as actual feel of handling is concerned, he praises only Gran Turismo, but with some constraints > he highlights RUF BTR and RUF Yellow Bird on Sport Hard/Medium tires compound as being the closest to real life he ever experienced virtually.

For all other games he says that although they can be more attractive/have more options/more pronounced some effects, none of them actually captures the "simulation" of actual handling as GT does with S1 and S2 tire compounds. He notes that all other games just nullify the twitches of high-powered cars produced when pushing to the limit and that level of actual grip is just too great. He highlights how lateral movement and weight-transfer in all other games is being deliberately toned-down (or made wrong).

Interesting is how he praises the work done by PD in tire-department, but also with some constraints. He finds all compounds in "Racing" class too grippy and he concludes they were made in order to make game more playable. He finds that level of snap, grip and peak of real-life racing tires is perfectly simulated with S2 (Sports Medium) compound on stock cars, while S3 is the real-life equivalent of performance for race cars.

As for driving on edge with "normal" tires, he highlights N3 and S1 compounds, although he personally finds N2 (Comfort Medium) being closest to grip levels of street tires when being driven on street car (without any race prep). Link.

Now you mention the Zonda R using RH tires in stock form, designed by the game creators to be that way, do you honestly believe you understand and know the game better than the people who made it?

I posted this in the other thread, I guess you did not read:

"Remember the tyres used in the Coulthard Seasonal Event(comfort softs). The recomended tyres by Polyphony to match the real life performance in the R8 comparison at Laguna Seca(comfort medium). The low grip tyres used for the GT Academy competitions(comfort and low sports tyres for race cars). Etc.."

And now compare those official tyres designated by the game creators for realism with the default tyres of any of those cars in the game. Also compare that selection with the professional driver opinion posted above.

One thing is the default car configuration(mostly towards to the casual player with toned down realism, more grip and all aids on) and another a realistic configuration to match the real car behaviour and performance in its stock pure form(realistic grip tyres and no aids). GT games always have come like that since GT1. Do you remember the special control tyres(sim) in older GTs?