Let's revisit counter-steering assist

[kjeldsen]

First off CSA doesn't make you faster. Second, I bet you play with ABS, is it fair that your allowed to compete against those that turn ABS off? How about people who have steering wheels and pedals, or those that mod their equipment to make braking and throttle control easier? should they be allowed to race against me on my DS4?

Fair is what is allowed by the rules of the game.

First off CSA doesn't make you faster. Second, I bet you play with ABS, is it fair that your allowed to compete against those that turn ABS off? How about people who have steering wheels and pedals, or those that mod their equipment to make braking and throttle control easier? should they be allowed to race against me on my DS4?

Fair is what is allowed by the rules of the game.

CSA does not make me faster... is simply wrong, depending on the car and the track it can make a difference, even for me with many hours in GTS. And when i am halfway through a race on Willow it is not by accident that the car behind me with all aids enabled is starting to gain on me.

I addressed the ABS and TCS stuff earlier in the thread, i would repeat it but there is a chance you would miss other points :-)

The Wheel vs DS4 discussion has plenty of threads and is another discussion, i have both and i am faster with my DS4 thanks to lots of practice and need more aids when i drive with the wheel if i want to compete.

 

[John Crellin]

CSA does not make me faster... is simply wrong, depending on the car and the track it can make a difference, even for me with many hours in GTS. And when i am halfway through a race on Willow it is not by accident that the car behind me with all aids enabled is starting to gain on me.

I addressed the ABS and TCS stuff earlier in the thread, i would repeat it but there is a chance you would miss other points :-)

The Wheel vs DS4 discussion has plenty of threads and is another discussion, i have both and i am faster with my DS4 thanks to lots of practice and need more aids when i drive with the wheel if i want to compete.

If people are catching you with TCS and ASM on then sounds like you need to 'git gud'

 

[kjeldsen]

If people are catching you with TCS and ASM on then sounds like you need to 'git gud'

They wouldn't catch me without, and the question is, should they even be on the same track as me then.

 

[John Crellin]

They wouldn't catch me without, and the question is, should they even be on the same track as me then.

Fair is what the rules allow for

 

[kjeldsen]

Fair is what the rules allow for

Sure, did i say otherwise?, i hope not. This is just another thread on the topic, just giving my opinion.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's fair to say I'm not overly keen to respond in these type of threads.
But I'll just say this.

No-one else is responsible for any one persons decision to use or not use aids apart from that person.
If you choose to run without any aids (although it seems that some are apparently legitimate such as ABS) that is your decision.

Comments such as "should they even be on the same track as me then" are ridiculous.

All aids are available for everyone.
If you think it helps, use them.
If you think others gain an advantage, use them.
Complaining that someone beat you, and then proportioning that loss to driver aids when you had exactly the same aids available to use yourself, seems self defeating and looking for excuses to me.

This elitism of I'm holier than thou because I don't use them (even though most still use at least one) is pointless.

 

[kjeldsen]

It's fair to say I'm not overly keen to respond in these type of threads.
But I'll just say this.

No-one else is responsible for any one persons decision to use or not use aids apart from that person.
If you choose to run without any aids (although it seems that some are apparently legitimate such as ABS) that is your decision.

Comments such as "should they even be on the same track as me then" are ridiculous.

All aids are available for everyone.
If you think it helps, use them.
If you think others gain an advantage, use them.
Complaining that someone beat you, and then proportioning that loss to driver aids when you had exactly the same aids available to use yourself, seems self defeating and looking for excuses to me.

This elitism of I'm holier than thou because I don't use them (even though most still use at least one) is pointless.

Yeah, the wording the "should they" were wrong, it should be would they be on the same track.

I thought this was common knowledge

The first post in this thread:

"This seems to be the rule now when it comes to competitive lap times on the leaderboards, especially in the Europe/ME/Africa region. Is this simply the accepted norm now?"

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Yeah, the wording the "should they" were wrong, it should be would they be on the same track.

Firstly, my apologies for singling out your sentence.
And I wasn't targeting the wording, I was targeting a more a general approach/attitude towards the issue, so it wasn't fair of me.

As a general rule I see the same top players putting down Top 10 lap times, generally without any aids except perhaps with ABS Default.
And that says to me it's possible.

Hypothetically, if I see a circumstance where these same players are now using an additional aid, that tells me that aid helps for this particular car/track combo.
(It almost never happens, but you get what I mean).
But there is your evidence.
It tells me there is an advantage to use that aid.

If I decide not to, that's my decision.

People need to stop blaming other players or the game for their own decisions.

The aids are available for all.
And if it's such a big issue about being beaten by others, and if you come to the conclusion it's only the aid that gets them there, stop being stubborn and use the damn aid.
See how you go with using it.

People are happy to put forward reasons why blatantly exceeding track limits by ridiculous margins is fair game.
Irrespective of whether it gains you tenths through that sector, the game doesn't penalise you, so apparently just go for it.
This scenario is debatable.

The option of choosing particular aids when driving certainly isn't.
It's there if you want it.

 

[kjeldsen]

Firstly, my apologies for singling out your sentence.
And I wasn't targeting the wording, I was targeting a more a general approach/attitude towards the issue, so it wasn't fair of me.

As a general rule I see the same top players putting down Top 10 lap times, generally without any aids except perhaps with ABS Default.
And that says to me it's possible.

Hypothetically, if I see a circumstance where these same players are now using an additional aid, that tells me that aid helps for this particular car/track combo.
(It almost never happens, but you get what I mean).
But there is your evidence.
It tells me there is an advantage to use that aid.

If I decide not to, that's my decision.

People need to stop blaming other players or the game for their own decisions.

The aids are available for all.
And if it's such a big issue about being beaten by others, and if you come to the conclusion it's only the aid that gets them there, stop being stubborn and use the damn aid.
See how you go with using it.

People are happy to put forward reasons why blatantly exceeding track limits by ridiculous margins is fair game.
Irrespective of whether it gains you tenths through that sector, the game doesn't penalise you, so apparently just go for it.
This scenario is debatable.

The option of choosing particular aids when driving certainly isn't.
It's there if you want it.

I think that whatever options the game gives you is 100% fair play.

My little suggestion is simply to nerf the aids so that they are still there, still an option for those that need it but simply less attractive as you want to raise your game. In many ways it would make sense (as i wrote earlier) since it would give the players more progression and a clear path to improve.

 

[TamasToth]

It's fair to say I'm not overly keen to respond in these type of threads.
But I'll just say this.

No-one else is responsible for any one persons decision to use or not use aids apart from that person.
If you choose to run without any aids (although it seems that some are apparently legitimate such as ABS) that is your decision.

Comments such as "should they even be on the same track as me then" are ridiculous.

All aids are available for everyone.
If you think it helps, use them.
If you think others gain an advantage, use them.
Complaining that someone beat you, and then proportioning that loss to driver aids when you had exactly the same aids available to use yourself, seems self defeating and looking for excuses to me.

This elitism of I'm holier than thou because I don't use them (even though most still use at least one) is pointless.

All of it sound good and seems you're right, but... it is not that easy. This game have this options, legally to use this assists, having better results and _play_. While this game have the option to _drive_ and try to learn, improve - in reactions, in driving, not in game results -, beat yourself, and do it in simulated conditions (instead of playing). Both can be fun. Each to their own likings. And from this aspect, there is not any "elitism", just a difference in approach. Therefore the question (if they has to be on the same track on the same time) is valid.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

All of it sound good and seems you're right, but... it is not that easy. This game have this options, legally to use this assists, having better results and _play_. While this game have the option to _drive_ and try to learn, improve - in reactions, in driving, not in game results -, beat yourself, and do it in simulated conditions (instead of playing). Both can be fun. Each to their own likings. And from this aspect, there is not any "elitism", just a difference in approach. Therefore the question (if they has to be on the same track on the same time) is valid.

It is that easy, unless you decide to make it more complicated.
And if that is what you choose, then open lobbies allow for that.

Sport Mode is what it is.
This is the car, this is the track, go for it.

If you genuinely feel that others are gaining an advantage by using an aid that you aren't, then seriously trial using that aid.
What exactly is wrong with that?

I just run ABS default.
That's my decision.
What I don't do is look at replays and somehow try to qualify my result according to what others decide.

It is what it is.
I have every opportunity to make the change if I wish.
And it isn't other peoples fault nor the games fault that I choose to continue with the settings I use.

Because frankly, I don't believe I would actually be any faster using those aids.
But that's just me.

 

[mirial]

And saying stuff like 'don't use aids in GTS as it will limit your driving ability in real life' is just laughable.

When I mentioned driving, I meant in the game itself, but since you mention real life, then I'd have to say it does as well. No assists, if anything gives you a much heightened sense of trying to prevent the car going over the edge in the game, and our driving input improves accordingly, and how we need to consistently look at the track correctly, which should in some way transfer to real life, whereas any increase in the number of assists used in the game, blunts this ability and users' input I would say gets crude over time because nobody is frightened of anything, which is why this forum is awash with complaints about crashers and rammers.

I doubt many have done it, but I'd like to think if anyone practiced like Billy-o with the R18 with no assists around the Ring until they put in fast, consistent laps, then even the best would emerge a slightly better driver when resuming their normal classes.

 

[Scaff]

When I mentioned driving, I meant in the game itself, but since you mention real life, then I'd have to say it does as well. No assists, if anything gives you a much heightened sense of trying to prevent the car going over the edge in the game, and our driving input improves accordingly, and how we need to consistently look at the track correctly, which should in some way transfer to real life, whereas any increase in the number of assists used in the game, blunts this ability and users' input I would say gets crude over time because nobody is frightened of anything, which is why this forum is awash with complaints about crashers and rammers.

I doubt many have done it, but I'd like to think if anyone practiced like Billy-o with the R18 with no assists around the Ring until they put in fast, consistent laps, then even the best would emerge a slightly better driver when resuming their normal classes.

You are aware that the R18 uses assists in reality?

As does every GT3 car, oh and GT4 as well.

 

[kjeldsen]

You are aware that the R18 uses assists in reality?

As does every GT3 car, oh and GT4 as well.

Do you have something on this, it has been mentioned several times, i am curious to what extent it is allowed and how it is implemented.

 

[iFerrari]

Do you have something on this, it has been mentioned several times, i am curious to what extent it is allowed and how it is implemented.

It depends on how much the drivers want them to be effective, they have like 15 different settings for both ABS and TC in GT3/GT4. In LMP2, LMP1 and GTE classes they have only TC available to make them just slightly harder to drive but in reality a car with no ABS and racing tyres in working range is not that hard to drive, GTS got that completely wrong that's why it's simply impossible to drive without it in game.

 

[Scaff]

Do you have something on this, it has been mentioned several times, i am curious to what extent it is allowed and how it is implemented.

The systems are far more advanced and adjustable that those found on road cars, and you will not find the drivers not using them.

I'm posting on my phone right now, but the sporting regulations for all these classes are available online.

People often also forget that F1 has had driver aids throughout its history from time to time, and the drivers again took advantage of them (and I'm fairly certain no one is about to accuse Senna of being a bad driver for using them).

 

[mirial]

You are aware that the R18 uses assists in reality?

As does every GT3 car, oh and GT4 as well.

I didn't know that, but that doesn't make it right from a purist's point of view. I'm sure the pro drivers would rather not have them given the choice. For the games, I've always thought it better to be more difficult than reality because we can afford to crash and spin until we get it right. I know there is an issue with the physics which limits our ability to feel the tyres, but I maintain everyone would be better off over time if only weak ABS were allowed. There are plenty of capable drivers doing GTS who maybe aren't as acrobatic as the few in the top ten without CSA and TC, so with persistence I'd say the majority can therefore learn to drive very respectably without them.

I think it's slightly unfair anyone getting better times than those not using CSA or TC, but it's not too big of an issue. I have more of an issue that default ABS is the required option to be competitive in most classes, because as @Stotty mentioned once, it is too efficient as ABS and also acts as ASM too, which really does remove the task of trying to skilfully and gently rotate the car on entry.

Default ABS is far too powerful and is wrong.

 

[Scaff]

I didn't know that, but that doesn't make it right from a purist's point of view. I'm sure the pro drivers would rather not have them given the choice. For the games, I've always thought it better to be more difficult than reality because we can afford to crash and spin until we get it right. I know there is an issue with the physics which limits our ability to feel the tyres, but I maintain everyone would be better off over time if only weak ABS were allowed. There are plenty of capable drivers doing GTS who maybe aren't as acrobatic as the few in the top ten without CSA and TC, so with persistence I'd say the majority can therefore learn to drive very respectably without them.

I think it's slightly unfair anyone getting better times than those not using CSA or TC, but it's not too big of an issue. I have more of an issue that default ABS is the required option to be competitive in most classes, because as @Stotty mentioned once, it is too efficient as ABS and also acts as ASM too, which really does remove the task of trying to skilfully and gently rotate the car on entry.

Default ABS is far too powerful and is wrong.

Racing is racing in my view. If the regulations allow for close, competitive racing I don't care what aids the do or don't include.

You could put the exact same argument forward for improvements in Tyre technology or Aero and the benefits it brings.

Take for example 24hour races, yes ABS and TC have made the drivers more consistent, but that's changed the racing from being a 24 hour endurance race into a 24 hour sprint race. With the cars running at 10/10ths for the entire events.

As such, no I don't personally subscribe to the 'purist' argument at all. Particularly given that anyone judging this on how aids work in GTS is getting a very false perspective on how the operate.

 

[TamasToth]

It is that easy, unless you decide to make it more complicated.
And if that is what you choose, then open lobbies allow for that.

Sport Mode is what it is.
This is the car, this is the track, go for it.

If you genuinely feel that others are gaining an advantage by using an aid that you aren't, then seriously trial using that aid.
What exactly is wrong with that?

I just run ABS default.
That's my decision.
What I don't do is look at replays and somehow try to qualify my result according to what others decide.

It is what it is.
I have every opportunity to make the change if I wish.
And it isn't other peoples fault nor the games fault that I choose to continue with the settings I use.

Because frankly, I don't believe I would actually be any faster using those aids.
But that's just me.

I didn’t say anything wrong or anybody’s fault. Just different aproaches.

 

[kjeldsen]

The systems are far more advanced and adjustable that those found on road cars, and you will not find the drivers not using them.

I'm posting on my phone right now, but the sporting regulations for all these classes are available online.

People often also forget that F1 has had driver aids throughout its history from time to time, and the drivers again took advantage of them (and I'm fairly certain no one is about to accuse Senna of being a bad driver for using them).

I searched a bit and i can only find ABS and TCS described but not in great detail, i expect CSA and ASM to be there as well?

 

[Scaff]

I searched a bit and i can only find ABS and TCS described but not in great detail, i expect CSA and ASM to be there as well?

Why?

I didn't specify which ones , and CSA is made up by PD.

 

[kjeldsen]

Why?

I didn't specify which ones , and CSA is made up by PD.

That's the impression I got from your post with CSA being the main point of this thread and all. TC is on many of the steering wheels in the game so that is hardly a surprise. ABS to some extent since I have watched plenty of full lock ups in many races but again that would depend on the racing series regulations.

 

[simsimsheree]

Fair is what the rules allow for

No, the rules is what the rules allow for. Fair got nothing to do with rules.

Rules can be changed. Fairness can't. Maybe we should go back to steroids in athletics. I mean, it surely can't be 'fair' to forbid those that can't compete at the top levels to use an 'aid' to better performance? LOL

Me, my take on the aids is, it underscores how terrible the new car physics and tire model is compared to GT6. GT6 didn't even NEED much in the way of aids to make a car drivable. You certainly didn't get this level of angst when GT6 started to forbid ASM or TC in races in lower power cars, and a lot of racing was still done on CS tires at lower PP's.

IMHO, PD traded one bad physics/tire model for an even worse one, and aids is all that can help the less-skilled even play, now.

 

[John Crellin]

No, the rules is what the rules allow for. Fair got nothing to do with rules.

Rules can be changed. Fairness can't. Maybe we should go back to steroids in athletics. I mean, it surely can't be 'fair' to forbid those that can't compete at the top levels to use an 'aid' to better performance? LOL

Fairness is subjective, Rules are objective. If I dont think its fair that others have wheels and brake pedals , but you do, then how do we agree on an objective format for the race? In gaming, fairness is made objective by setting a set of rules that everyone must operate under, this means any advantages gained by one, should by rule, be allowed for others, otherwise no objective winner can be agreed upon. Therefore, we premise fairness by an objective set of measures (the rules) and we all follow them. Rules can change, and when they do, the athletes/ gamers must conform to them for fair competition. In the case of steroid use, it is against the rules, so it becomes unfair when some athletes break those rules and dope, but it was not unfair back before they were banned because everyone had the option to use them.

 

[simsimsheree]

It didn't USED to be illegal to dope.

This is the point we currently are at. But fairness showed that artificial aids were not good for the sport, and THEN they were made illegal. Try to think beyond where things are NOW.

Like I said a while back, follow the history of allowed aids in GT5/6, you will see that they gradually start to get disallowed. Why? By your reckoning, how could that have been fair? But also, by your reckoning, as soon as they WERE the rules, they were fair!

So, PD banning steering assist would make it fair, right? 💡

 

[John Crellin]

n the case of steroid use, it is against the rules, so it becomes unfair when some athletes break those rules and dope, but it was not unfair back before they were banned because everyone had the option to use them.

read this^^

But fairness showed that artificial aids were not good for the sport

Health risks showed that they were unsafe and forced people to take risks that they otherwise wouldnt take. It had nothing to do with 'fairness'

Like I said a while back, follow the history of allowed aids in GT5/6, you will see that they gradually start to get disallowed. Why? By your reckoning, how could that have been fair? But also, by your reckoning, as soon as they WERE the rules, they were fair!

So, PD banning steering assist would make it fair, right? 💡

yes, if PD banned the aids and then someone used them, then it would be unfair. whats your point? you are arguing that CSA is unfair, im saying it isnt. Whether something is desirable is different than whether something is fair...

 

[simsimsheree]

Actually, no, I'm not arguing CSA is unfair. But I am also arguing that if PD banned it, it wouldn't be unfair... LOL

I'm afraid, back in the real world, only one person wins in any race. Giving those that can't an aid to make them delude themselves they are better than they are isn't really preparing the kids for that painful fact! Personally, I don't think CSA is the answer.

I think a better tire and physics model is the answer. Then, like real cars, you wouldn't need a nanny holding your steering wheel!

 

[John Crellin]

Actually, no, I'm not arguing CSA is unfair. But I am also arguing that if PD banned it, it wouldn't be unfair... LOL

ok now we agree

I'm afraid, back in the real world, only one person wins in any race. Giving those that can't an aid to make them delude themselves they are better than they are isn't really preparing the kids for that painful fact!

In the real world they use aids, TCS is a thing that real professional drivers (even the winners) drive with. Its only a delusion if they are given a handicap that others don not have access to. If you want to talk the real world lessons, then how about a lesson in the stupidity of purposely handicapping yourself for pride? Purists wont win an F1 series.

I think a better tire and physics model is the answer. Then, like real cars, you wouldn't need a nanny holding your steering wheel

Again, some modern cars are undriveable without assists. nowadays they are not fully mechanical, but instead, more computerized. I mean the whole concept of AWD is an "'assist' but i bet you wouldnt argue that AWD cars have a nanny holding your steering wheel.

Lancia might have argued that 4wd was an assist in rally back in the day when audi introduced their new quattro. but i bet we can all agree that it has improved rally racing for the better

 

[TenderLoins]

If people are catching you with TCS and ASM on then sounds like you need to 'git gud'

Exactly.

They wouldn't catch me without, and the question is, should they even be on the same track as me then.

I hate to break it to you but TCS and ASM both slow you down. If they made you faster the top guys would all be using them.

I use ABS only in GR4, ABS and CSA in GR3 and will never compete with the top drivers. Nobody is winning Championships because they have an aid switched on. All the so called purists need to get over themselves and just play the ****ing game.

 

[simsimsheree]

Exactly.


I hate to break it to you but TCS and ASM both slow you down. If they made you faster the top guys would all be using them.

I use ABS only in GR4, ABS and CSA in GR3 and will never compete with the top drivers. Nobody is winning Championships because they have an aid switched on. All the so called purists need to get over themselves and just play the ****ing game.

If TCS doesn't make you faster, once again, PD's physics and handling models need work. Because in the real life series they ARE allowed in, everybody uses them. I'm guessing they don't use them because they make you slower, right? LOL