Logitech G Pro Racing Wheel

[IfAndOr]

Ha! @IfAndOr that's where I saw the bolt-length stipulations; it was Rich's video.

Yeah it's a good video for initial information. It covers a few of Tommy's questions as well, foams, bolts etc. I think many folks miss it on the G Pro webpage. There's also the mounting templates for the base and pedals available, plus some FAQs.

 

[Tommy moon]

Yeah it's a good video for initial information. It covers a few of Tommy's questions as well, foams, bolts etc. I think many folks miss it on the G Pro webpage. There's also the mounting templates for the base and pedals available, plus some FAQs.

I have referenced these videos, and they are excellent. However, I'm finding a lack of comprehensive information for a lot of stuff that goes be on general recommendations. Like I said, it's not just me but me being comfortable recommending an ecosystem that schools to invest their hard earned and entirely too limit resources too.

I still believe Logitech to be the best option, especially because they have an ecosystem beyond sim racing. However, I don't want to push something without more confidence. It's not my money and fanatec is still cheaper. For obvious reasons I don't want to go that route.

 

[tyoungbl]

I have referenced these videos, and they are excellent. However, I'm finding a lack of comprehensive information for a lot of stuff that goes be on general recommendations. Like I said, it's not just me but me being comfortable recommending an ecosystem that schools to invest their hard earned and entirely too limit resources too.

I still believe Logitech to be the best option, especially because they have an ecosystem beyond sim racing. However, I don't want to push something without more confidence. It's not my money and fanatec is still cheaper. For obvious reasons I don't want to go that route.

Dude what are you on about.

Anything specific you've asked has been responded to, many times with resources available from logitech.

If you are trying to outfit a US based school with pro racing gear (especially if console compatibility is a box to check) logitech g pro is a no brainer. The official support at the forum level is hands down better than anything else. If you go with fanatec, a German based company, to save a few hundred dollars be prepared for something to break and good luck getting ANY support let alone an actual RMA within any reasonable time frame. Be prepared to throw your schools money right out the window.

I dunno, it sounds like you've made up your mind as you're not listening to what everyone here is trying to tell you.

If you have a specific problem that hasn't been responded to ask and I guarantee someone here will have an answer to your question.

 

[Tommy moon]

Dude what are you on about.

Anything specific you've asked has been responded to, many times with resources available from logitech.

If you are trying to outfit a US based school with pro racing gear (especially if console compatibility is a box to check) logitech g pro is a no brainer. The official support at the forum level is hands down better than anything else. If you go with fanatec, a German based company, to save a few hundred dollars be prepared for something to break and good luck getting ANY support let alone an actual RMA within any reasonable time frame. Be prepared to throw your schools money right out the window.

I dunno, it sounds like you've made up your mind as you're not listening to what everyone here is trying to tell you.

If you have a specific problem that hasn't been responded to ask and I guarantee someone here will have an answer to your question.

 

[Tommy moon]

I'm sorry, I won't post about this anymore. Just real life issues I've had where the existing resources weren't dialed in enough from my experiences. I agree it is a no brainer...and I'm not trying to complain. I could have had my control box replaced on Logitech but was able to fix the issue I had and dropped the ticket.

I'm a big supporter. However the issues with GT7 were enough for me to post this before I have people to drop $10,000 on an upgrade.

 

[Yes No]

@Tommy moon

I think I now fully understand your frustrations. If you take a look back through this thread, you will see several conversations about how GT7 does some really funky/crappy stuff with our wheel that (unfortunately) is completely out of Logitechs control.


If you take a look for Logi_Rich posts, you will see that GT7 will make several changes to the wheel settings based on how you configure the wheel... And some of these settings might not get changed until you close and restart the game. PD also decided that there is a "safety concern" regarding the FFB with our wheel, so they put a cap on the maximum FFB torque of around 7-8nm. It's total bs and still haven't found anything dangerous about using the full 11nm torque via a drivehub.

FFB filter is a good example of how GT7 is making weird changes to our wheel... I've found that when I'm using the full 11nm torque, I will need to set the FFB filter to 1 because of oscillation issues when set to 2 or higher.


Please continue to post in here and ask questions. You might get some odd or rude responses from a few individuals, but we are all here to learn and to help each other out. I know this thread has been a huge to help to me from several awesome members that have taken the time to answer my (stupid) questions lol.

 

[IfAndOr]

However, I don't want to push something without more confidence. It's not my money and fanatec is still cheaper. For obvious reasons I don't want to go that route

If you're going to be purely using GT7 that'll be just PS5, so if you were thinking of upgrading to direct drive wheels it's really only Logitech or Fanatec to choose from at the moment. Logitech have their Trueforce, which I believe is great in GT7. Fanatec will (probably) have their Full force for the higher end base. For GT Fanatec have wheels that have specific controls that are used in the game, might be useful to quick access functions.

What age are the kids? I was just thinking that powerful DD wheels could be quite strong. Maybe the Fanatec 5Nm base might be sufficient.

I mean there's also the Thrustmaster TGT2. It's not DD but it's a decent belt drive base and GT themed wheel with extra buttons and dials. Plus it's got the GT only rumble transducer. Might also be worth considering.

 

[Tommy moon]

@Tommy moon

I think I now fully understand your frustrations. If you take a look back through this thread, you will see several conversations about how GT7 does some really funky/crappy stuff with our wheel that (unfortunately) is completely out of Logitechs control.


If you take a look for Logi_Rich posts, you will see that GT7 will make several changes to the wheel settings based on how you configure the wheel... And some of these settings might not get changed until you close and restart the game. PD also decided that there is a "safety concern" regarding the FFB with our wheel, so they put a cap on the maximum FFB torque of around 7-8nm. It's total bs and still haven't found anything dangerous about using the full 11nm torque via a drivehub.

FFB filter is a good example of how GT7 is making weird changes to our wheel... I've found that when I'm using the full 11nm torque, I will need to set the FFB filter to 1 because of oscillation issues when set to 2 or higher.


Please continue to post in here and ask questions. You might get some odd or rude responses from a few individuals, but we are all here to learn and to help each other out. I know this thread has been a huge to help to me from several awesome members that have taken the time to answer my (stupid) questions lol.

Thank you that is helpful....I never thought of turning the filter down that low. I run 11nm on wheel too...what do you have in game FFB sensitivity at?

 

[Tommy moon]

If you're going to be purely using GT7 that'll be just PS5, so if you were thinking of upgrading to direct drive wheels it's really only Logitech or Fanatec to choose from at the moment. Logitech have their Trueforce, which I believe is great in GT7. Fanatec will (probably) have their Full force for the higher end base. For GT Fanatec have wheels that have specific controls that are used in the game, might be useful to quick access functions.

What age are the kids? I was just thinking that powerful DD wheels could be quite strong. Maybe the Fanatec 5Nm base might be sufficient.

I mean there's also the Thrustmaster TGT2. It's not DD but it's a decent belt drive base and GT themed wheel with extra buttons and dials. Plus it's got the GT only rumble transducer. Might also be worth considering.

I know that's what's out there. We are running GT7 because for the past year we have ran this inside other major events where the big ticket games dominate. Part of it is drawing people in during open game time...it's difficult enough for new people to jump into GT7...anything beyond is too much.

We deal with High School and hopefully in 12 months colleges as well. There are scholarships and lots of Stem funding for schools for these eSports...but in the US racing hasn't caught on, we are hoping to change that.

Ultimately, I want to lower the barrier of entry and be able to recognize talent at a young enough age to eventually be spotted by real teams. Karting is cost prohibitive in Europe for most. In the US historically in sports...we excel when the lowest income brackets have access which is why I want this as broad and cost effective as possible.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of how fanatec has conducted business since winning the GT7 contract...I would much prefer staying with Logitech.

 

[Yes No]

Thank you that is helpful....I never thought of turning the filter down that low. I run 11nm on wheel too...what do you have in game FFB sensitivity at?

Keep in mind that the G Pro is limited to 7 or so nm torque, even if you have the wheel set to 11nm and in game torque set to 10. You can verify this by changing the display on the wheel base to show torque... Can't remember what the option is called but I think it's home screen option located towards the bottom of the options on the wheel base. The only way you can currently get the full 11nm torque is if you have a drivehub.

I like having a pretty heavy and sensitive wheel so I have the FFB sensitivity set to 10, FFB torque set to 10, and controller vibration set to 125 in game. On the wheel base, I have the torque set to 11nm, FFB filter set to 1, trueforce set to 100%, and dampener is set depending on the car and my mood lol... I typically have it set to around 50 when I'm using the Porsche 962c and typically the same with the other group c cars. On newer cars, I sometimes lower to around 20, but it just depends on the car.

 

[Tommy moon]

Keep in mind that the G Pro is limited to 7 or so nm torque, even if you have the wheel set to 11nm and in game torque set to 10. You can verify this by changing the display on the wheel base to show torque... Can't remember what the option is called but I think it's home screen option located towards the bottom of the options on the wheel base. The only way you can currently get the full 11nm torque is if you have a drivehub.

I like having a pretty heavy and sensitive wheel so I have the FFB sensitivity set to 10, FFB torque set to 10, and controller vibration set to 125 in game. On the wheel base, I have the torque set to 11nm, FFB filter set to 1, trueforce set to 100%, and dampener is set depending on the car and my mood lol... I typically have it set to around 50 when I'm using the Porsche 962c and typically the same with the other group c cars. On newer cars, I sometimes lower to around 20, but it just depends on the car.

Thank you! This is exactly what I'm after...125 and 100 must have A LOT of true force...I've tinkered with all of this...but never tried to lower ffb filter much. So with Low ffb filter it seems you can crank up the truforce without oscillations....however I typical run without dampener. Lately I've been running 35 vib, 100 tf audio, 7-8 nm game, 11 strength on wheel.

I've read both sides of whether it's better to run the ffb torque higher in game and lower in the base and vice versa. Haven't gotten a definitive answer on how that works in GT7.

See I started with a t300 and that failed shortly after warranty, I went csl elite PS4 which also went after 1.5 years or so. I take care of my stuff...so I've been super paranoid to do the wrong thing and overstress this thing. I know the force is muted...but I do get clipping where ffb goes out during certain trailbraking....I give these settings a shot.

Thank you

 

[Monkey Man]

Please continue to post in here and ask questions. You might get some odd or rude responses from a few individuals, but we are all here to learn and to help each other out. I know this thread has been a huge to help to me from several awesome members that have taken the time to answer my (stupid) questions lol.

You're a class act bro'.

 

[morfei1]

It's obvious the Logitech Pro is nerfed, because of the official Fanatec DD Pro wheel with max power of 8nm and there is nothing we can do about it. I'm not sure nor I care how exactly their new base DD+ perform exactly in GT7.... is it go above the 7nm limit or is also locked at 7nm max. Sadly, it is what it is and we have to get used to it.

I play a lot of ACC, AC, rf2, R3E, ASM2 and usually my sweet spot for FFB is about 5nm. Max power on the base and about 45-50% in the game with exception of ASM2, where I need to up the FFB slider at about 60-65% to get the same feeling I'm looking for. GT7 is no exception, my in game slider for FFb strength is at 5 and it's OK with various cars and tyres. TF Audio makes the game on another lvl.

If you expect to have the same feeling in a GT3 car running on RM tires and Golf 2 on CM tires, you are doing it wrong.

 

[Podger]

It's obvious the Logitech Pro is nerfed, because of the official Fanatec DD Pro wheel with max power of 8nm and there is nothing we can do about it. I'm not sure nor I care how exactly their new base DD+ perform exactly in GT7.... is it go above the 7nm limit or is also locked at 7nm max. Sadly, it is what it is and we have to get used to it.

I play a lot of ACC, AC, rf2, R3E, ASM2 and usually my sweet spot for FFB is about 5nm. Max power on the base and about 45-50% in the game with exception of ASM2, where I need to up the FFB slider at about 60-65% to get the same feeling I'm looking for. GT7 is no exception, my in game slider for FFb strength is at 5 and it's OK with various cars and tyres. TF Audio makes the game on another lvl.

If you expect to have the same feeling in a GT3 car running on RM tires and Golf 2 on CM tires, you are doing it wrong.

the GT DD Extreme is nerfed to 82% of full FFB

the Gpro is at about 73% of full FFB

 

[morfei1]

the GT DD Extreme is nerfed to 82% of full FFB

the Gpro is at about 73% of full FFB

So, I can consider that 12.3nm on Fanatec is safe but the 11nm full power on Logitech is not, or maybe they just protect my equipment . Well, this shows me even more that the nerf is on purpose just to handicap Logitech Pro and boost Fanatec in the GT7 community.

Sadly, for use it's a passion, but for them - it's just business.

 

[Yes No]

@Tommy moon

Can you describe in a bit more detail about your clipping issue? I used to think my wheel was clipping when I was trail braking (badly) because I would lose the FFB feeling while in going into the corner and partly thru the apex.

I finally realized what was happening when I went out with some friends to a go-kart track. I was pushing the kart pretty hard into the corners and started feeling the same thing that I was feeling on the G Pro.... The wheel got really lose and felt like the kart had suddenly installed power steering. I finally realized that the wheel felt like that because I was losing most of the traction on the front wheels. The G Pro does this also for the same reason, and does a really great job of stimulating the lose of traction... It's pretty awesome how light the wheel will get when losing traction. I haven't used other dd wheels to compare it but I'd imagine they do something similar.


Tldr; I thought the wheel was clipping but finally figured out that it's doing it on purpose to simulate the loss of traction.

EDIT: Forgot to add this part. If you don't like how lose the wheel gets in the corners, you can increase the dampener. I recommend starting at around 30 and increase it in intervals of 5 until you get close to what you like
.. then start doing an interval of 1 to fine tune it to what you like.

 

[morfei1]

There is no way to understand a wheel is clipping in GT7 even the weak g29. Clipping and locking the brakes are 2 completely different things. And yeah, GT7 simulates locking your fronts - overshooting the corner very clearly, probably from the begging of last summer when I got my G Pro.

The dampening should be just enough or a little bit more just to avoid oscillation. Anything more than that means losing/dampening the FFB details and there is no high enough torgue, even the max 11nm of the wheel, which can help you, if you don't drive properly.

 

[super_gt]

the GT DD Extreme is nerfed to 82% of full FFB

12.3Nm, but Fanatec has setting called FOR(force effect strength modifier) which if increased from 100 to 120 returns the torque to 14.76Nm(I haven't measured it, but I felt that the steering wheel is heavier in the middle of the corner).
Maybe Logitech also should implement such setting instead of waiting.

 

[tyoungbl]

12.3Nm, but Fanatec has setting called FOR(force effect strength modifier) which if increased from 100 to 120 returns the torque to 14.76Nm(I haven't measured it, but I felt that the steering wheel is heavier in the middle of the corner).
Maybe Logitech also should implement such setting instead of waiting.

Woah. Yeah why isn't this a thing? @LOGI_Rich could logitech do something like this instead of having to use the drivehub to modify the torque?

 

[Podger]

oh I'm just looking at the USB traffic and the range of values that are signed 16 bit and they don't go beyond 82% +/-... and drivehub just does for Gpro what fanatec does.

 

[chandrizzle]

Woah. Yeah why isn't this a thing? @LOGI_Rich could logitech do something like this instead of having to use the drivehub to modify the torque?

It makes sense for Logitech to hold out as long as possible because if they implement the change and PD lifts the limit, now you're possibly overdriving the DD motor. Not everyone will be updating their firmware right away (or ever), so there's potentially a lot of liability involved.

Podger has noted that his "fix" is temporary/beta, and it's not persistent nor enabled by default.

 

[tyoungbl]

It makes sense for Logitech to hold out as long as possible because if they implement the change and PD lifts the limit, now you're possibly overdriving the DD motor. Not everyone will be updating their firmware right away (or ever), so there's potentially a lot of liability involved.

Podger has noted that his "fix" is temporary/beta, and it's not persistent nor enabled by default.

I believe @LOGI_Rich said elsewhere that the torque is limited by the AC supplied to the base so it really can't go over what it is designed to output, external modifications or not.

 

[Tommy moon]

@Tommy moon

Can you describe in a bit more detail about your clipping issue? I used to think my wheel was clipping when I was trail braking (badly) because I would lose the FFB feeling while in going into the corner and partly thru the apex.

I finally realized what was happening when I went out with some friends to a go-kart track. I was pushing the kart pretty hard into the corners and started feeling the same thing that I was feeling on the G Pro.... The wheel got really lose and felt like the kart had suddenly installed power steering. I finally realized that the wheel felt like that because I was losing most of the traction on the front wheels. The G Pro does this also for the same reason, and does a really great job of stimulating the lose of traction... It's pretty awesome how light the wheel will get when losing traction. I haven't used other dd wheels to compare it but I'd imagine they do something similar.


Tldr; I thought the wheel was clipping but finally figured out that it's doing it on purpose to simulate the loss of traction.

EDIT: Forgot to add this part. If you don't like how lose the wheel gets in the corners, you can increase the dampener. I recommend starting at around 30 and increase it in intervals of 5 until you get close to what you like
.. then start doing an interval of 1 to fine tune it to what you like.

I know what you mean when you get to the limit the car gets very light. I can actually overpower the wheel too... Going beyond the friction circle etc. This is not that, this is a loss of force feedback before I'm at the limit.

This is why I've been curious as to Is it the wheel or the in-game that you give the game headroom for. My struggle is I'm a solid A driver... But I'm no alien... And trying to figure out exactly what was going on or how to resolve it is tough because there's simply aren't many guys using this wheel on GT7.

Hence one of my reasons for the initial frustration with not having more detailed higher level information.

 

[Tommy moon]

I know what you mean when you get to the limit the car gets very light. I can actually overpower the wheel too... Going beyond the friction circle etc. This is not that, this is a loss of force feedback before I'm at the limit.

This is why I've been curious as to Is it the wheel or the in-game that you give the game headroom for. My struggle is I'm a solid A driver... But I'm no alien... And trying to figure out exactly what was going on or how to resolve it is tough because there's simply aren't many guys using this wheel on GT7.

Hence one of my reasons for the initial frustration with not having more detailed higher level information.

I also understand a lot of this is not logitech's fault. That just makes this more troublesome. I really wish there was a couple high level streamers using Logitec on GT7. Which is something we could easily rectify...I'm just not sure how committed they are to the GT7 space to do so. Before anyone mentions Kireth...that's part of the issue not a solution.

 

[chandrizzle]

I also understand a lot of this is not logitech's fault. That just makes this more troublesome. I really wish there was a couple high level streamers using Logitec on GT7. Which is something we could easily rectify...I'm just not sure how committed they are to the GT7 space to do so. Before anyone mentions Kireth...that's part of the issue not a solution.

Have you tried starting from the recommended settings on the Logitech website? https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/8358055253271-In-Game-Settings-for-Pro-Wheels

There are per-game wheel settings (GT7 is one of them) in the table lower down the page, and in the last column there are screenshots that show the in-game settings that pair with it.

Could be one of the settings is too high and clipping early? Kinda like setting an audio EQ wrong and getting distortion even at low volumes.

 

[Yes No]

@Tommy moon I'm wondering if you are experiencing these issues due to the way that GT7 changes several settings directly related to the G Pro. Have you tried playing ACC or other racing games that do not put so many limitations on our wheel? I'm also curious if you are possibly changing the max rotation on this wheel... If I recall correctly, it is not recommended to change the rotation to anything other than 1080 degrees for GT7.

I will see if I can try and recreate your issue with going past the friction plate when I get home from work tonight. I know the wheel feels way too light at the capped 72% of the max FFB in GT7... One of the many reasons I use a drivehub. At the full 11nm torque, I find that it has a decent enough amount of FFB torque to keep me from accidently over powering the wheel ... I'm guessing it would be possible to turn past the rotation limit if I was only using the capped 72%, I'll try it out tonight and let you know.

@chandrizzle I have tried maxing out every setting both on the wheel and in GT7, along with using the drivehub for the full 11nm torque and have yet to feel any distortion or clipping with my setup. I'm curious if others have experienced clipping or distortion.

 

[Tommy moon]

Have you tried starting from the recommended settings on the Logitech website? https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/8358055253271-In-Game-Settings-for-Pro-Wheels

There are per-game wheel settings (GT7 is one of them) in the table lower down the page, and in the last column there are screenshots that show the in-game settings that pair with it.

Could be one of the settings is too high and clipping early? Kinda like setting an audio EQ wrong and getting distortion even at low volumes.

Yes, I have. Also it's different from car to car. I often go back to those settings and "start over". I know I came in hot....but I really have spent LOTS of time exhausting options. I understand a lot of this is personal preference, I also know very well how complicated this is for Logitech.

It's certainly not their fault how Sony and fanatec have handled things. I also really want Logitech to succeed, I think there is a huge console user base using their entry level product. Honestly I think the types of things we are trying to do could actually help that.

To answer your question I thought of that and tweaked with those settings. This week I'm actually okay...brands hatch... So not too much heavy breaking.

 

[Tommy moon]

@Tommy moon I'm wondering if you are experiencing these issues due to the way that GT7 changes several settings directly related to the G Pro. Have you tried playing ACC or other racing games that do not put so many limitations on our wheel? I'm also curious if you are possibly changing the max rotation on this wheel... If I recall correctly, it is not recommended to change the rotation to anything other than 1080 degrees for GT7.

I will see if I can try and recreate your issue with going past the friction plate when I get home from work tonight. I know the wheel feels way too light at the capped 72% of the max FFB in GT7... One of the many reasons I use a drivehub. At the full 11nm torque, I find that it has a decent enough amount of FFB torque to keep me from accidently over powering the wheel ... I'm guessing it would be possible to turn past the rotation limit if I was only using the capped 72%, I'll try it out tonight and let you know.

@chandrizzle I have tried maxing out every setting both on the wheel and in GT7, along with using the drivehub for the full 11nm torque and have yet to feel any distortion or clipping with my setup. I'm curious if others have experienced clipping or distortion.

I really appreciate this. I don't mess with the rotation. Rather than have you have to put a bunch of time in, I'll just check back in when I'm having that issue specifically again... This week the car and track combination... She's working pretty good at the moment.

Really thank you all. Instead of trying to recreate it. I'll just pop in when I'm experiencing the issue and then maybe we tackle it. It's just nice to know I can work these issues out now.

 

[Tommy moon]

Have you tried starting from the recommended settings on the Logitech website? https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/8358055253271-In-Game-Settings-for-Pro-Wheels

There are per-game wheel settings (GT7 is one of them) in the table lower down the page, and in the last column there are screenshots that show the in-game settings that pair with it.

Could be one of the settings is too high and clipping early? Kinda like setting an audio EQ wrong and getting distortion even at low volumes.

Audio eq? I run 35 vibration and 80-100 TF audio

 

[Tommy moon]

@Tommy moon I'm wondering if you are experiencing these issues due to the way that GT7 changes several settings directly related to the G Pro. Have you tried playing ACC or other racing games that do not put so many limitations on our wheel? I'm also curious if you are possibly changing the max rotation on this wheel... If I recall correctly, it is not recommended to change the rotation to anything other than 1080 degrees for GT7.

I will see if I can try and recreate your issue with going past the friction plate when I get home from work tonight. I know the wheel feels way too light at the capped 72% of the max FFB in GT7... One of the many reasons I use a drivehub. At the full 11nm torque, I find that it has a decent enough amount of FFB torque to keep me from accidently over powering the wheel ... I'm guessing it would be possible to turn past the rotation limit if I was only using the capped 72%, I'll try it out tonight and let you know.

@chandrizzle I have tried maxing out every setting both on the wheel and in GT7, along with using the drivehub for the full 11nm torque and have yet to feel any distortion or clipping with my setup. I'm curious if others have experienced clipping or distortion.

I understand this may be GT7 specific...what I'm saying is If I stick with GT7... Then I have two options Fanatec and Logitech. I know enough about what was going on at Fanatec over the years to not want to do business with them.

I love the idea of drivehub for myself. However if that was the solution for schools etc... then I certainly don't need Logitech.

If I go PC...then my choice would be Hoan at VNM or Asatek most likely.

So for me it's less about whose fault it is or how much I like Logitech. It's about making the right choice,. Honestly if Logitech is not prioritizing the GT7 user base then that's totally fine. I don't blame them for not adding gear because they need a big enough install base. I even understand why they throw their big $100,000 season on ACC and now Forza.

Sony would never let them do such an event that would dwarf GTWS. I think it's criminal that You have to be 18 to compete only because the first thing they do when you get to live event is sign over your likeness rights. So they haven't been paying these guys and they're actually forcing them to sign over in order to compete.

I see these live events as an opportunity to maybe change this. Look most likely we fail but we're trying to do something. I'm frustrated because I feel like this could easily be fixed with just a couple partnerships with the right streamers/sponsored drivers. That way there wouldn't be so much guesswork, in regards to my initial post topic.

This has been a little passion project of mine for a while now. It's looking like, It's going to stall out at the goal line. I just don't know how I can get inner City/less fortunate kids to cover the costs of going PC.