Motorcycles in GT6 or future GT titles.

[olansk]

TT was my all time favourite game and I would love to see PD bring it back in an updated version, will it happen ? I have to be sincere and say no, not as a stand alone game, the sales figures of the first game probably won´t justify a new TT, PD might want to make it but I believe Sony will say no. However I do believe and hope that on the PS 4 there could be a slight possiblity we could see an DLC expansion pack that adds bikes to a future GT title. This is a much more feasible option, that will cut devolpment and production costs.

 

[another_jakhole]

Wait wait wait..... bikes are strange in GT.... but moon buggies are not? Plus; Kaz has openly stated he has a big passion for bikes and would include them if it was possible in the concept of GT, but it wasn't, hence they made TT.

He did say that. He was asked in an interview about the possibility of there being another Tourist Trophy by fans of GT (and TT) and replied that he would like to make another one. Considering that most won't buy TT2 when compared to GT6 or GT7, the best bet of there being another PD-created motorcycle/bike sim would be through including them in a GT game (whether we like it or not).

TT sold a great amount for a motorcycle/bike sim so why deny those of us who would like this implementation of bikes into a GT game the privilege of having a minor TT inclusion into the GT series? In the end, it's not any of ours call. And there's already a thread about bikes in GT that details the pros and cons of having them. The arguments against the hopes of having a semi-Tourist Trophy in Gran Turismo are mostly selfish and quite frankly ignorant, but there are a few points that do have substance to them.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motorcycles-in-gt6.260868/page-38

I don't want that, if PD want's they can bring back Tourist Trophy wich i loved also but for god sake no motorcycles in GT

Then we'll (potentially) have another GT PSP/VITA and/or Tourist Trophy that will delay the release of the next GT. Fair enough for you since you enjoyed TT on the PS2, but why would bikes in GT ruin your four-wheel driving experience?

 

[MatskiMonk]

The day motorcycles are added is the day I trade GT6 in. That will be the end of the franchise for me.

Why's it such a big deal if you don't mind me asking?

I'd support either option (TT2 or Bikes in GT), I'm certainly not a bike guy but TT was great.

 

[Griffith500]

The irony is that the most efficient way to make a TT successor is to have it as DLC / plug-in / add-on for GT6 (although that would suck for anyone who only wants TT, not GT). I'm sure online filters will work fine in segregating the chalk and cheese of exclusively car and motorcycle fans, whilst ensuring we true enlightened ones get to enjoy both as we see fit!

If people believe that PD shouldn't make another TT game, I think they need to rethink their sense of self importance.

 

[Dave A]

Sorry, I still can't see any valid arguments from any of you on why we shouldn't have bikes in GT6.

In your opinion, I've seen a few convincing arguments, including the most obvious one, GRan Turismo is about cars.

I keep hearing Tourist Trophy 2 this, Tourist Trophy 2 that. If they do release a TT2, do some of you not realize what they're going to do is use the same engine, tracks, and content as they did with GT4 and TT? For one, it wasn't much of a success at only 600k something.

The lack of success of Tourist Trophy then suggests PD should leave bikes alone.

Two, we're already complaining about delays or whatnot, and you'd rather them pour dedicated resource time away from GT and into a bike game itself with unique tracks and content?

No, we'd rather PD dedicate resources and time into improving Gran Turismo and adding new cars, features and tracks.

Three, all you're doing is really paying for the bike models, not necessarily a game itself. When I played TT, everything felt the same as GT4 (content, music, U.I, etc.). Back then was an exception because games couldn't be updated and DLC wasn't possible I don't see what's the harm in putting them together. Like Karts and F1s, they can easily be classed in career mode and completely separate from regular road cars. Online, we can easily make restrictions. I'd rather have them in one disc, rather than having to change discs/game to just enjoy bikes along the same content and U.I. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be if I want to drive a car around Nurbrugring, then as soon as I feel like hotlapping with bikes, I'd have to switch disc just to ride it around the SAME track, as oppose as to just going to the garage.

And here is the problem, the only way to make it work is to keep them separate. PD get away with the Karts because carts are a type of single seater car, a bike is not. Certainly if they were completely separate in the game I'd have no issue but that also makes their inclusion largely pointless.

As for TT2 being more profitable? Think again because you have to think about distributing costs, retail share, and marketing, as oppose to a simple add-on on Sony's own PSN. Of course I'd rather have them free, but with all the demand of TT2, they'll probably charge us as DLC if bikes were to be incorporated to GT.

If TT wasn't a success as you said earlier then there can't be much demand really for TT2. People saying it's be cool on a forum is one thing but mass groups of the general public buying it is a different matter.

Bottom line is that bikes and cars racing against each other would take GT in the opposite direction of where it should be heading, which is to be as realistic as it can be. To include them as a separate mode would be fine, apart from the fact that their inclusion would be at the expense of improving to car side of the game. What you would end up with is 2 different games in 1 with the likelyhood of neither being given the attention and future development needed to make them as good as they otherwise would be. Also a game engine running physics for cars and bikes sinultaniously is not as efficient as one running cars or bikes only etc.

Ultimately a TT2 game with GT6's tracks released on the PSN would be best, but don't integrate them.

 

[Griffith500]

In your opinion, I've seen a few convincing arguments, including the most obvious one, GRan Turismo is about cars.

The lack of success of Tourist Trophy then suggests PD should leave bikes alone.

No, we'd rather PD dedicate resources and time into improving Gran Turismo and adding new cars, features and tracks.

Fundamentally, the concept of the term "Gran Turismo" has nothing to do with cars, except by popular association. The concept easily extends to motorcycles, which is why there are plenty of GT motorcycles. If you mean historically, then you're also wrong, as we've had cars and motorcycles together, prominently displayed to the world, all with GT branding all over it. It might not have been a saleable product (mostly because of a change of heart for the concept of GT HD altogether, i.e. away from nickel and diming for PS2 content), but it's still official marketing and demonstrates a clear desire on PD's part to continue with bikes.

The lack of success of Tourist Trophy was largely because it wasn't marketed. The fact that those who did learn about it and played, in the main would really really like a sequel says more about what it got right than about prevailing markets (i.e. awareness) for such a game. Let's not forget GT was in the same boat when it first launched, it just got a bigger push. Now it's expected that a racing game will be popular, despite still being the poor cousin in the wider gaming world.

I think PD can do as they wish with their resources, they've earned it - by definition. Unless you're going to suggest they adopt a communistic development model. You can wish for what you want by all means, but PD will do what they think is best for their business. I think GT can stand to lose a small amount of attention (modeling time, physics development) just to make a spin off; why can't you share?

 

[Dave A]

Fundamentally, the concept of the term "Gran Turismo" has nothing to do with cars, except by popular association. The concept easily extends to motorcycles, which is why there are plenty of GT motorcycles. If you mean historically, then you're also wrong, as we've had cars and motorcycles together, prominently displayed to the world, all with GT branding all over it. It might not have been a saleable product (mostly because of a change of heart for the concept of GT HD altogether, i.e. away from nickel and diming for PS2 content), but it's still official marketing and demonstrates a clear desire on PD's part to continue with bikes.

The literal definition of Gran Turismo does but Gran Turismo the game doesn't. Ofcourse there is the possibility it will evolve to include bikes, as another poster said ultimately its not our call, but right from the start KY has always talked about GT being to do with cars.

The lack of success of Tourist Trophy was largely because it wasn't marketed. The fact that those who did learn about it and played, in the main would really really like a sequel says more about what it got right than about prevailing markets (i.e. awareness) for such a game. Let's not forget GT was in the same boat when it first launched, it just got a bigger push. Now it's expected that a racing game will be popular, despite still being the poor cousin in the wider gaming world.
I think PD can do as they wish with their resources, they've earned it - by definition. Unless you're going to suggest they adopt a communistic development model. You can wish for what you want by all means, but PD will do what they think is best for their business. I think GT can stand to lose a small amount of attention (modeling time, physics development) just to make a spin off; why can't you share?

If you read my post I actually back the idea for a TT2 or even an addin to include bikes in GT as long as the bikes and cars don't race together (online you can do what you want as long as you filter races to include just one or the other) but cars and bikes shouldn't race on the same track in GT mode ever. IMO. I'm not a fan of bikes so I'm happier with more cars instead, but if bikes came and didn't alter the way GT is played then so be it but to do it that way means it would be more efficient to do a TT2 separately from a game performance perspective.

 

[Griffith500]

The literal definition of Gran Turismo does but Gran Turismo the game doesn't. Ofcourse there is the possibility it will evolve to include bikes, as another poster said ultimately its not our call, but right from the start KY has always talked about GT being to do with cars.

If you read my post I actually back the idea for a TT2 or even an addin to include bikes in GT as long as the bikes and cars don't race together (online you can do what you want as long as you filter races to include just one or the other) but cars and bikes shouldn't race on the same track in GT mode ever. IMO. I'm not a fan of bikes so I'm happier with more cars instead, but if bikes came and didn't alter the way GT is played then so be it but to do it that way means it would be more efficient to do a TT2 separately from a game performance perspective.

I think it's obvious that PD will be aware of the tension between car and bike circles and pussy-foot around it accordingly. The fact that many people pretend to be against it in principle, but when pushed, actually qualify that by saying an apartheid of cars and bikes (even in the same game...) would be acceptable, is annoying though. Don't oppose it if you're not actually opposed.

A TT sequel would have bike-only content the way GT has car-only content already. Just adding bikes to the game won't mean that the game will be rejigged in its entirety to have bikes shoehorned in any which way. I don't think there's any point in limiting mixing them, though, even offline. People can do as they please, and that includes avoiding things they don't like - because it would in all likelihood, as stated, effectively be optional.

You edited your post after I started my reply.

 

[MatskiMonk]

PD's implementation of Bikes in TT was far better than they've managed to achieve with dirt/snow rallying in any GT game - it felt up to the GT standard... where as anything not-on-tarmac in GT seems badly done. I think it would bring more to the game than the dirt events do.

I'm a traditionalist when it comes to GT, but at the same time, I've got no problem with them adding content that would appeal to a lot of petrol heads.


.. but as I said before. I really liked TT, so I'd buy it if it were a separate game anyway. If they did release it as a separate game they should include the Isle of Man TT track, but not introduce it in to GT... that'd get the haters seething

 

[CarBastard]

What the hell am I supposed to do with a steering wheel and pedals then?

 

[v4orce]

What the hell am I supposed to do with a steering wheel and pedals then?

ebay,then buy helmet and gloves

 

[Dave A]

I think it's obvious that PD will be aware of the tension between car and bike circles and pussy-foot around it accordingly. The fact that many people pretend to be against it in principle, but when pushed, actually qualify that by saying an apartheid of cars and bikes (even in the same game...) would be acceptable, is annoying though. Don't oppose it if you're not actually opposed.

Most people are more opposed to the idea of cars and bikes in the same races more than being opposed to bikes point blank which is why a few have said they wouldn't be opposed if they were kept separate. There is a difference, there's no reason to argue that you refuse to accept the possibility of bikes under any and all circumstances, absolutes like that are stupid.

A TT sequel would have bike-only content the way GT has car-only content already.

Whoch would keep the cap people happy and give the bike people allthe bike game they want. Perfect.

Just adding bikes to the game won't mean that the game will be rejigged in its entirety to have bikes shoehorned in any which way.

Which would make there inclusion in GT rather pointless, they may as well do TT2 instead.

I don't think there's any point in limiting mixing them, though, even offline. People can do as they please, and that includes avoiding things they don't like - because it would in all likelihood, as stated, effectively be optional.

Only if the offline races where you mixed cars and bikes were in the arcade mode, but the added bonus of having both together would be a slower game. GT6 already pushed the PS3 hard, running two very different physics engines parralel to each other is taxing.

 

[Devil240Z]

Really? You think 57.5% against and 42.5% in favour of bikes in this game makes everyone happy?

The day motorcycles are added is the day I trade GT6 in. That will be the end of the franchise for me.

then I hate you.

 

[MustangCobra95]

It's kind of sad seeing so many people shoot down this idea. Obviously if it's included, there should be an option online where only cars and/or bikes are allowed on the track. I for one think that the including of bikes (with the right bike physics of course) will make this game much more diverse than it already is. I loved riding that Suzuki GSX-R 1000 and that MORIWAKI Motorcycle in Tourist Trophy.

 

[BHRxRacer]

All for it if they get the sounds right. That's assuming they finish making GT6 before they start making GT7, and finish GT7 before they start making GT8

 

[grog]

Its sad to see so many people assume that this is some how feasible.
It would only take another 5 years, so yeah its very simple (sarcasm).

When will this dead horse die?

TT 2 awesome, GT with bikes no bueno.

 

[Devil240Z]

I just don't see how much work it would really take I mean they did most of it making TT the first time. GT6 is already using PS2 assets. Just port over stuff from TT. There was already bike stuff buried deep within GT5 so its obviously on their minds.

 

[Griffith500]

Most people are more opposed to the idea of cars and bikes in the same races more than being opposed to bikes point blank which is why a few have said they wouldn't be opposed if they were kept separate. There is a difference, there's no reason to argue that you refuse to accept the possibility of bikes under any and all circumstances, absolutes like that are stupid.

Whoch would keep the cap people happy and give the bike people allthe bike game they want. Perfect.

Agreed!

Which would make there inclusion in GT rather pointless, they may as well do TT2 instead.

I mean that they can add a whole section of bike only races, and leave the car only races (already present) as they are. The inclusion of bikes in the game does not mean they will be put everywhere they weren't before. PD could add a few specific bike and car events, or whatever, too - I'm sure people could "tolerate" that one way or another.

Only if the offline races where you mixed cars and bikes were in the arcade mode, but the added bonus of having both together would be a slower game. GT6 already pushed the PS3 hard, running two very different physics engines parralel to each other is taxing.

The offline races can be whatever PD want them to be. As long as they don't encroach on the sacred and pre-established car-only domain, as above, what's the issue?

The physics are the same. Please don't let us thrash that fallacy out again. There are already 16 copies of physics running, it doesn't matter that some of the parameters are different.

 

[Dave A]

Agreed!



I mean that they can add a whole section of bike only races, and leave the car only races (already present) as they are. The inclusion of bikes in the game does not mean they will be put everywhere they weren't before. PD could add a few specific bike and car events, or whatever, too - I'm sure people could "tolerate" that one way or another.

Bike only races would be fine, but at the same time that makes the idea of including them in GT less logical and promoted the idea of a TT2 game more.

The physics are the same. Please don't let us thrash that fallacy out again. There are already 16 copies of physics running, it doesn't matter that some of the parameters are different.

No they aren't, the calculations and formulas required to simulate a bike bein ridden are vastly different to those used for driving a car. 2 different physics engines would be required 1 to manage the handling etc of cars and 1 for bikes. The fact that 16 different cars with different setups and different handling characteristics can bd driven together is one thing, but the calculations and formulas for each of those 16 cars are the same, for a bike you would need a whole new set of rules to be loaded into memory and that coul prove too taxing to manage in GT6 on the PS3 should they both be required at the same time.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I would like to have motorcycles. The only game that I think implemented bikes with cars extremely well was the Midnight Club series (Specifically 3 and LA).

 

[Griffith500]

Bike only races would be fine, but at the same time that makes the idea of including them in GT less logical and promoted the idea of a TT2 game more.

Except that TT2 would just be, say GT6 with all the cars removed. I think the most logical option is to leverage what installed base you have by making it "plug in" to GT6, and maybe offer it as a standalone digital download as well. It's hardly the end of the world if you choose not to buy it.

No they aren't, the calculations and formulas required to simulate a bike bein ridden are vastly different to those used for driving a car. 2 different physics engines would be required 1 to manage the handling etc of cars and 1 for bikes. The fact that 16 different cars with different setups and different handling characteristics can bd driven together is one thing, but the calculations and formulas for each of those 16 cars are the same, for a bike you would need a whole new set of rules to be loaded into memory and that coul prove too taxing to manage in GT6 on the PS3 should they both be required at the same time.

Sorry, the same universe "runs" bikes and cars in the real world. It's time to take things seriously here. Any "special" calculations required for bikes would improve the car simulation, incidentally.

Even if they used different models, it's really not hard to make them computationally equivalent, or more, or less, or whatever you want (depending on the fidelity you're going for).
It's still fallacious to suggest, arbitrarily, that running bikes is more computationally expensive than cars, and there is no reason to suggest running both models side-by-side on different entities (so they won't actually be required "at the same time" at all) would be any different. You can run an X2014J on the same track as other cars, and they use vastly different sound models, for example.

Loading lines of code is not really demanding of memory, and the key quantities being calculated are more or less the same in either case (universal, even) - there's even two fewer tyre contact patches (and suspension items, and brakes and no ARBs etc. etc.) on a bicycle. PD have already done it, anyway.

But here we are, thrashing out the old fallacy once again.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Oh come on, why is everyone so sensitive about having bikes in GT. Not like you'll be forced to use them or there'll make GT feel like an arcade racer...

 

[Unknown?]

I'm for it. How about something where it's like A/B-Spec in GT4? Where you can do any event race but have to choose either or. So if you start a race with a bike it's all bikes but you start with a car it's all cars? That way you can complete the career with what you want and bikes/cars are entirely optional.

 

[xlsound]

Then we'll (potentially) have another GT PSP/VITA and/or Tourist Trophy that will delay the release of the next GT. Fair enough for you since you enjoyed TT on the PS2, but why would bikes in GT ruin your four-wheel driving experience?

It wouldn't ruin my four wheel experience but it would turn GT into something that it isn't, i don't want this game to become something like Dirt series, Colin Mcrae was the best rally game in my opinion and it was ruined when they jumped into the first Colin Mcrae Dirt, then they added buggys, trucks and all source of vehicles and competitions that add nothing to do with the pure rally experience and completly destroied my favorite rally game. I wouldn't mind to wait( i still have to wait another year for gt6 to be what it was supposed to be on release date) for a new game more time if it means that i would get a finished game on release date.

 

[Dave A]

Except that TT2 would just be, say GT6 with all the cars removed. I think the most logical option is to leverage what installed base you have by making it "plug in" to GT6, and maybe offer it as a standalone digital download as well. It's hardly the end of the world if you choose not to buy it.

That's all fine, all we're doing here is disagreeing on the means of providing a new experience for bike fans. As long as it didn't affect the way you play GT if you chose not to want or use bikes then obviously that's not really causing any issues for those people.

Sorry, the same universe "runs" bikes and cars in the real world. It's time to take things seriously here. Any "special" calculations required for bikes would improve the car simulation, incidentally.

Even if they used different models, it's really not hard to make them computationally equivalent, or more, or less, or whatever you want (depending on the fidelity you're going for).
It's still fallacious to suggest, arbitrarily, that running bikes is more computationally expensive than cars, and there is no reason to suggest running both models side-by-side on different entities (so they won't actually be required "at the same time" at all) would be any different. You can run an X2014J on the same track as other cars, and they use vastly different sound models, for example.

Loading lines of code is not really demanding of memory, and the key quantities being calculated are more or less the same in either case (universal, even) - there's even two fewer tyre contact patches (and suspension items, and brakes and no ARBs etc. etc.) on a bicycle. PD have already done it, anyway.

But here we are, thrashing out the old fallacy once again.

this is where I disagree, in the real world bikes and cars operate together, a ge does not simulate the entire real world spectrum of physics. They very often use loopholes and quick averages to cut down on the ammount of data required to be calculated. There is zero reason why GT6's physics engine would be able to simulate a bike leaning into a corner as it is, just the same way There's no reason it would be able to simulate a rider shifting position, leaning forward, back or to the sides etc, on top of that the entire behaviour or riding in 2 wheels is vastly different to driving on 4. You are trying to simplify things massively here, a few lines if code would not make a lot of difference but we're talking thousand and thousands of lines of extra code being refreshed hundereds of times a second x the number of vehicles in the race. It's a big deal, I'm not saying it would be impossible, but I am saying it would be taxing. How that would affect the overall gameplay is only guessable. The only way to guarentee that it doesn't is to run 2 different physics engines, 1 for cars an 1 for bikes and to load them seperately. This would provably mean you could either race just cars or just bikes though.

 

[Griffith500]

All you have to know are the forces operating on an object. That object needs a specific shape, size, mass, centre of mass - the latter ideally by way of integrating "distributed" point masses, such as the engine, drivetrain, driver, fuel tank etc. (which GT has never done, and really should, it'd solve a lot of the weirdness) plus some vague notion of the "bodywork". The same applies to a bike as it does to a car, and could technically be a pre-compute step where you can store things like an array of mass moments of inertia or something. No difference.

The forces come from several things, one of which is rigid body contacts. In GT, that seems to be done through a proxy geometry, like a "bounding box", but probably better approximating the actual shape. Intersection tests feed forces directly into the above. No difference for bikes and cars.

The main force of interest comes from the tyres. All that needs is data for bikes, much as GT5 had data per car. There's a bit of extra scope for angle of lean, depending on the tyre and it's cross-section, but the process is broadly the same. There's a bit of complication regarding the contact point migrating around the tyre, but that's also easily resolved in pre-compute. The steering keeps the bike upright by applying a restoring force through the front tyre (which drops out of the tyre model as it would for the steering on a car) should it start to fall over. This is analogous to driving on two wheels in a car. No difference.

Things that are of importance on a bike, but are often "ignored" for cars include the wheels' momentum and gyroscopic forces. These are trivial to calculate, and you only have two tyres to deal with, so there's plenty of room for that extra calculation. Adding these calculations to a car sim would improve its accuracy. No difference.

What's often ignored in cars also is the idea of a dynamic centre of gravity. Very important on a bike due to the leaning and rider movement. Movement of fluids etc. in a car give rise to similar effects, and suspension movements technically do the same, so its inclusion for car simulation is also a plus. No difference.


The real meat and potatoes of the difficulty is the input. That was controlled with an adjustable AI in TT (because there are so many instinctive inputs that a rider makes that can't be replicated on a controller, as such; it's adjustable because there are so many individual riding styles), and would need to return. It's unlikely that is really much of a burden either, no more than ABS, TCS etc. and would technically be a part of the steering animation calculations in this case, all of which are in the game already. Again, the lack of two suspension and tyre model instances probably allows room for any "excess" per bike over a car.

Again, code weighs practically nothing in terms of memory. The computational cost of that code has no relation on the number of lines, directly. There is no reason to "load" the models separately at all. Again, the sound gives a direct example of two very different models in use side by side. The AI themselves probably use a different physics model as it is, so it's total nonsense to suggest that it's not possible. Also: PD have already had bikes and cars running together on ordinary hardware.


There is no technical limitation; it's all in your head. I'm afraid there is nothing to hide behind but your irrational fear of bikes polluting other people's copies of the game.

 

[Scuderia Paul]

I would rather they be kept separate but if GT7, let's say, was to feature motorcycles I would would be fine. I have no interest in bikes in reality but the games are usually enjoyable.

 

[stormbringer]

Why stop at motorcyles? lets try to get all sorts of transportation in GT

PD Please add the following ASAP

1- Motorcycles
2- Trains
3- Airplanes (fighter jets would be awesome...race em on the runway)
4- Horse/Donkey carts
5- Mopeds
6- golf carts
7- 18 wheeler trucks
8- USPS and UPS delivery vans
9- unicycles and bicycles
10- Feet (pedestrian races)
11- Buses (especially the double decker london ones, with a horn that shouts " 'ey Govner")
12- forklifts

There are plenty more id like to see in GT, but i shouldnt ask too much of PD. Just add a few of the above...ok?

 

[Scuderia Paul]

4- Horse/Donkey carts

We have a few of those already...

 

[MatskiMonk]

snip...

There is no technical limitation; it's all in your head. I'm afraid there is nothing to hide behind but your irrational fear of bikes polluting other people's copies of the game.

I'm not disagreeing with you (in fact I agree with you). But, I would assume there was/is something more taxing about putting bikes through the Playstation 2's processor, since there were never more than 2 bikes in track in TT... vs. the 6 cars in GT4. I'm not saying it was the physics, maybe just having dynamic models (rider movement etc.)? Let's not forget that part of TT tuning wasn't anything to do with the bike, it was the riding form too.

Given this, it's not unreasonable to think that bikes put more load on the processor... though it may not be as noticeable on the PS3 as it was on the PS2.