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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Furinkazen, Aug 26, 2011.
I think you're misunderstanding my position, try reading the first part of my statement again.
If that camera structure wasn't there, I dread to think how that crash might have transpired.
I was truly horrified at seeing that; a friend sent me the video with me not knowing what I was about to watch.
I'm surprised so many teams make the trip considering they usually have massive repairs afterwards. If they're really that desperate to write off a car, I'd be more than willing to make a journey to their shop with a sledgehammer at half the cost of running the race.
I was only following it at all because of the significance of it being the last race for Schnitzer with Charly Lamm at the helm (which was made sweeter given Gustl was driving and they took a double win)... but other than that, bringing together such a race for so many different championships, should take place at a circuit that isn't ******* garbage for racing and can actually do a full schedule of events justice without so many yellow flags and stupidly short races.
Naw I get your position...it’s a tough circuit which is hard to race at but can create really extroadanry racing moments, but it’s also dangerous....therefor abandoning the event should be considered.
There a lot of yellow flags...so. Watch a 24hr race from the Nurburgring, Le Mans, or Daytona, and count the hours upon hours upon hours of yellow flag and code 60 periods. Those races are getting to the point where literally 1/4 to 1/3 of the race is run under yellow. Should those events be abandoned as well?
Why not just expand that position one step further.
I’m suprised so many teams go motor racing, considering they usually have massive repair bills afterwards. If they’re really that desperate to burn money by driving in circles, I’d be more than willing to make a journey to their shop with a paper shredder to shred money for them, in a far safer manner
Why bother doing any of this?
I don't feel the need to swim in shark infested waters, does that mean I should just avoid swimming all together?
It's down to risk vs. reward and I'm just surprised so many teams deem it worthwhile considering how scarce funding is in motorsports. If you can't grasp that, than I can't help you.
Racing is dangerous. Always has been, always will be. But steps are taken to mitigate the danger. Tracks, cars and driver suits all have been heavily modified to make them safer for the human inside the car, as well as the workers and fans outside the car. But there gets a point where the trade-off reaches the point of diminishing returns. A point where you just can't make it any safer. A point where you have to ask "Is it worth it?" I'm not arguing for or against the Macau GP. The people who take the risks, the drivers, the team owners, the course owners are the ones who should be answering this question, not us fans. If the day comes when they say "No" then we can be disappointed, or relieved, or whatever, but we shouldn't be angry. We're not the ones taking the risks.
Because it's an unnecessary moving of goalposts.
Are you really unable to see the difference between a circuit which has had motorsport outgrow it like Macau and... say, Shanghai or Sepang? More modern Asian circuits that often have great races.
Sometimes circuits are past their sell by date because the size and demands of the motorsport series exceed what the track is capable of delivering or maintaining both in terms of safety and race quality. And yes, before you mention it as a counter-argument, a lot of people actually would like to see Monaco go too.
You don't get my position, you're going off on one resolving all events as being equal, then throwing in the word abandon, which I never used.
All events aren't equal, all risks aren't the same, and neither is the pay off for fans or drivers. An 18 lap one off sprint race on on a temporary track that offers virtually no overtaking opportunities for modern GT (for instance) cars is not the same as a 24 hour race on the Nordschleife for 160 cars (for instance), or the Belgian Grand Prix, the 24 hrs of Spa, or the 6 hours of Spa, and neither is an 8 lap race shortened by red flag after rider hospitalization, the same as a 236 mile TT race around the Isle of Man.
In either case, when it comes to danger, the risks need to be adequately addressed... by which I mean taking a pragmatic approach to the event design, and altering things where necessary, be it fences, kerbs, layout, infrastructure, timetable or regulations.
THE WEIRDEST THING ABOUT MACAO
The yearly chaos in front of the Grand Lisboa Hotel & Casino is mostly avoidable with a not-so-big modification.
You go from the Av. de Amizade (Friendship Avenue), a 4-lane avenue, to the Av. de Lopo Sarmento de Carvalho (2-time captain of Macau in the early 17th Century)... which is a 4-lane avenue too except it has a divider. If the government of Macao demolishes that stupid divider we would have 1 less spot for traffic jams and a better spot for overtaking, which would make that turn a lot less stressful and eliminate quite a bunch of crashes every year.
Good insight. If they can narrow the train of cars to its single file procession more gradually they might spend less time under yellow. What the circuit really needs to find a way of widening the route in a few more places to promote some overaking opportunities, rather than just cut down on yellow and red flags.
Personally I'd look at ditching the GT3 race completely to give the bike race, the F3 and the touring cars more time to work with... or at best, make it a GT4 race instead, this would help consolidate the requirements of the safety infrastructure a little... although if a crash fence facing one of the most high energy areas on the circuit cannot withstand a 550kg open wheeler hitting it, I think they need to re-evaluate what they believe the barrier systems can actually cope with.
Yeesh, imagine Floersch's accident, but with a GT3 Bentley or something.
The photographers bunker would have been obliterated and I suspect the people on the ground underneath wouldn't have been as lucky as they were...
... I'd assume the probability of a GT car arriving with that kind of speed and in the air is probably lower though.
I just showed the replays to a work colleague & although he was shocked at the speed of the accident, his first comment was, “How lucky was she to clear the concrete wall.”
I hadn’t thought of that point until then & it does raise the question of whether she would’ve been more seriously injured had that happened.
I’m just glad that following some serious rehab, she’ll be able to continue her career.
Good thing that structure was there. She'd had collided with the building.
This article shows the multiple factors that likely saved her.
Motorsports has made a lot of phenomenal strides in driver safety in the past 10-15 years. So much so that I remarked to my father the other day how nice it was to see a large GT crash and just know, instinctively that the drivers would be fine.
We've had the HANS device, superb. We've got the collapsing structures along high speed corners (the foam stuff), superb. We've got incredible material sciences, superb. We have amazing helmets which meet increasingly strict criteria, superb. We've got great emergency response teams, mobile doctors, helicopters, etc.
One thing we haven't made a break-through on (in my opinion) is curbs and curb materials. Normally they don't produce such horrific results as Macau, but they frequently cause issues during the race - while at the same time we have increasing issues with track limits. I'd really like to see some well thought out solution to this. A material solution that dissuades drivers from crossing.
Sticky paint doesn't work. (great at helping slow cars safely, but doesn't dissuade the drivers much)
Grass doesn't work (great at dissuading but becomes a skating rink for cars out of control)
Sand doesn't work (great at slowing cars, but creates yellow flags too easily)
Curbs work, but create some problems on occasion (as seen here). I'd like to see a robust material solution which slows cars, maybe even risking minor damage to splitters etc. (in the way a curb can) without the ability to launch a car, or send it veering out of control. Perhaps a material that can be laid out in strips, much like sticky paint, but more aggressive --- with the ability to help slow or catch an out of control car (assuming it's not airborne of course).
It just seems like the one thing we haven't cracked, and it's something that would benefit tons of series. Perhaps some kind of much larger/robust "astro-turf" that's made from used motorsport tires ---so it can be cheaply acquired or produced?
Even the team realise this accident was nothing to do with how safe Macau is or the nature of the track, it was just one of those freak accidents with the physics just right (or rather wrong). Street tracks are challenging and the Guia circuit is not all that different from Singapore, Monaco or even Baku.
Quite, a car can get launched by kerbs at many tracks given the correct scenario, so I wouldn't class Macau as the cause of the accident... but, how it goes about mitigating the risks and controlling the severity of an accident is down to them.
A catch fence facing a braking zone from one of the highest speed sections of the track failed to contain a stray car, it failed in front of an area designated for marshalls and photographers, and it failed at a point where accidents occur at pretty much every event... Open wheelers getting airborne isn't a freak occurrence, crashes at Lisboa aren't freak occurrences, people being in that area wasn't a freak occurrence... The fact there was a temporary fence and enclosure there says the organisers were attempting to mitigate the risk, but the fence clearly was not adequate to sustain an impact with that kind of energy... that is the problem, and that's all on Macau.
Macau is a grade 3 circuit, Monaco (somehow) is a grade 1, so is Baku, and Singapore, so in the FIA's eyes it's clearly possible for tight city circuits to be safer... if Macau is the important event that it's made out to be, maybe it's time the FIA got them to raise their game.
Considering Macau's a street circuit - and a really narrow one at that - why should track limits even be enforced there?
Check the article posted above - people were cutting the corner.
My post wasn't limited to Macau...but racing in general.
An entirely artificial problem if you ask me. The track's already lined up by walls on all sides - no point in adding even more limitations beyond that.
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!
Unless you install a chicane or you have a superwide corner and want to make it much slower, THERE IS NO POINT IN ADDING TRACK LIMITS TO A STREET CIRCUIT!
I agree with what you said but look at the swimming pool section of Monaco now compared to how it used to be as well as St. Devote. I think widening the tracks in these areas creates less of a chance of an incident which I believe is the intent but then gives the drivers the opportunity to cut the track. It's a difficult balance.
First I’ve seen it from it’s point of origin.
Such an unfortunate set of circumstances.
In case you aren't familiar with the source image...