My 1993 Corvette! Post 280. Pics included.

[mustangGT90210]

No they aren't, they are bloated looking. The Sky is the one you need to look at if you want to go down that road...same car just looks a million times better.

Which then begs the question...How did Saturn do it??

 

[Joey D]

Which then begs the question...How did Saturn do it??

They didn't, Opel did it, then Daewoo stole it.

 

[mustangGT90210]

So are you telling me the Opel Speedster(?) is the Saturn Skye?

 

[Heldenzeit]

The Opel GT is the Saturn Sky. Which is a Pontiac Solstice, but better looking.

 

[YSSMAN]

So are you telling me the Opel Speedster(?) is the Saturn Skye?

Opel Speedster/Vauxhall VX220 = Lotus Elise

The Pontiac Solstice = Satun Sky, Opel GT, fancy Daewoo thingy, etc...

 

[LoudMusic]

I have a lot of seat time in S2000s; a very good friend of mine back in Florida used to have one. We even traded cars for the day from time to time. I enjoyed driving his stook very much; they are exemplary sports cars with only minor flaws and I would recommend them highly.

... I'm just not sure why LM thinks an S2k qualifies as a roadster whereas a Boxster does not.

BTW, 156 lb-ft of torque may not sound like a lot, but don't forget gears multiply torque and S2000s have crazy short gearing. It takes getting used to and if you're used to a lot of low-end grunt the S feels anemic at first. But at a full boogie the car scoots fairly well.

M

I dunno, personal opinion really. I think of a 'roadster' as being a small, lightweight, relatively featureless car. More like British convertibles from 30-odd years ago. When they start getting bigger and heavier they stop being so nimble and become more of a cruiser, even if they do have sport tires and an aggressive look. And I think of that as more of a "GT" group. The 350Z and Z3 both weigh nearly 400 pounds more than the S2000, which weighs nearly 400 pounds more than a Miata. I was surprised to see the Z4 and Boxster aren't as terribly piggy as I thought they were, but both weigh a bit more than an S. But I don't think of them as roadsters because, in my perception, they're marketed to old farts who want to think they have a raging sports car, but want to be pampered at the same time, and need a car they won't kill themselves in by accident.

That's not to say I don't like any of those cars. I think everything I've mentioned is actually pretty great (except the Boxster - the only reason to buy a Boxster is because you can't afford a 911). I just prefer the S2000 right now. It suits my personality. In 20 years I'll likely want something like a Z4 because it'll pamper me and keep me alive when I over estimate my aged reaction times

Yes the S2000 has low torque. But the car acts like a city car in the city, and when you want to flog it, it'll get up and run in a very special and unique way that will leave you very excited about driving. If you want to drag race at green lights it's not the car for you. If you want to enjoy beautiful weekend spirited drives it'll knock your socks off. If you want to go to the track or auto-cross days it's designed for that.

It's also actually more exclusive than the Z4, Boxster, and TT. And definitely moreso than the Miata. I would have 'settled' for a Miata if there weren't a bazillion of them on the road. I wanted a touch of exclusivity. So I could go on drives with twenty-nine cars just like mine

So I stand by it. The S2000 is the car he needs.

 

[///M-Spec]

I dunno, personal opinion really. I think of a 'roadster' as being a small, lightweight, relatively featureless car. More like British convertibles from 30-odd years ago. When they start getting bigger and heavier they stop being so nimble and become more of a cruiser, even if they do have sport tires and an aggressive look. And I think of that as more of a "GT" group. The 350Z and Z3 both weigh nearly 400 pounds more than the S2000, which weighs nearly 400 pounds more than a Miata. I was surprised to see the Z4 and Boxster aren't as terribly piggy as I thought they were, but both weigh a bit more than an S.

According to the Honda website, a 2008 S2000 weighs 2864 lbs.

A 2008 Z4 3.0i weighs 3020 lbs. That's 156 lbs.. or roughly 5% heavier than the Stook.

A 2008 Boxster weighs 2877 lbs. A mere 13 lbs heavier than the S.

FYI.

But I don't think of them as roadsters because, in my perception, they're marketed to old farts who want to think they have a raging sports car, but want to be pampered at the same time, and need a car they won't kill themselves in by accident.

That's more or less what I thought you might say. It's a fair view to hold and many people share your opinion.

But I think your weight argument is somewhat arbitrary (as well as somewhat incorrect). To the owner of one of those old British sports cars you mentioned, say a Triumph TR4 (which weighs 2100 lbs) ---a Miata would be something of a porker and the S2000, with it's leather seats, air conditioning, power top, power windows, locks and mirrors, fancy HID headlights and electric power steering... is like an orgy of comfort and convenience.

Think for a moment about all the comfort, safety and convenience features your S2000 has. It has almost everything a Z4 has. How "featureless" is it?

..and compared to something like a Lotus 7, we may as well all be driving Bentleys.

Your other argument that the S is much lighter is, as I've shown, an exaggeration in one case and a gross exaggeration in the other.

BUT, I would not argue the S is very exciting to drive. Remember, I have seat time. I've autocrossed one. I'm fully aware of what a sharp, precision tool the car is. I am also, I believe (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) the only person in this thread that also has significant (beyond a test drive) seat time in the 986 and Z4.

And I'm saying the Boxster and Z4 are easily in the same ballpark when it comes to "fun to drive" "agility" "connection between car and drive", etc. Seriously, you should drive them both before you make any judgments on that. The S does not have a monopoly on that and is not in some special, altogether different category than the others, sorry to tell you. It's a good car. It brings a very unique powertrain to the table, has --hands down-- the best shifter/transmission of the 3 and is priced lower.

A solid choice, but not the be-all end-all.

BTW, I'm disappointed you resorted to a little character assassination about 'old farts who think they have a raging sports car' in order to make your point about the S2k. After all, we 'old farts' could easily make the same silly kind of ad hominem attacks about how the S2000 is marketed: "towards naive kids who will drink the Koolaid because they've been driving FWD crapboxes most their lives and therefore won't know any better" or something like that.

Yes the S2000 has low torque. But the car acts like a city car in the city, and when you want to flog it, it'll get up and run in a very special and unique way that will leave you very excited about driving. If you want to drag race at green lights it's not the car for you. If you want to enjoy beautiful weekend spirited drives it'll knock your socks off. If you want to go to the track or auto-cross days it's designed for that.

Like I already said, I've got plenty of seat time. I'm familiar with all that.

It's also actually more exclusive than the Z4, Boxster, and TT. And definitely moreso than the Miata.

How do you figure? Because Honda made less of them?

If you wanted snob-appeal, you should have gone for the Porsche

So I stand by it. The S2000 is the car he needs.

Well, despite my overall word count in this thread, I'm going to decline to assume I know what the OP needs. I'm glad you're enjoying your S, though 👍


M

 

[Heldenzeit]

Wow, lots of arguing going on here. No problem, it's for my benefit as it seems.

I will look into S2000s, but if the insurance is too high then I wont bother.

Found this on autotrader:

There's a way to ruin a sports car. FAIL!

 

[///M-Spec]

Wow, lots of arguing going on here. No problem, it's for my benefit as it seems.

Welcome to GTP, where we can't agree on the color of ****

This thread is a group hug at the finish line compared to some of real arguments we're had around here. Take a gander at all 124 pages of the GTR thread, if you dare.


M

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Found this on autotrader:

There's a way to ruin a sports car. FAIL!

Once I found something similar on craigslist, except it was an Elise. The guy said it was great for picking up the ladies.

 

[LoudMusic]

The weight comments were specifically targeting the 350Z and Z3. I honestly didn't even look up the TT.

As for features, yes I am aware the S2000 has quite a few more features than a 30 - 40 year old British roadster. But a BMW or Porsche is going to have significantly more. Like power seats with lumbar and heat, adjustable steering wheel, navigation, perhaps even bluetooth support for a phone? I don't really consider safety items to be features. Is a seat belt a feature? "Hey! This bad boys got seat belts, whoohaa boy howdy!" Not so much. Airbags go in that group, too. Now, performance enhancements like traction control and ABS may be a different story, but that's kind of gray area, and an S2000 in the $15,000 range won't have that but a BMW or Porsche will.

Exclusivity and snob-appeal are not the same thing.

(Hummer) H2 sales were initially strong, but fell to 28,898 for 2004 and 23,213 for 2005.

That's more sales in one year than the three highest years of the S2000. People who drive H2s are generally considered to be snobby, but they're apparently not terribly exclusive. People who drive S2000s tend to be rare (exclusive?), but don't appear to be snobby.

Anyway, if you want a 'modern' roadster I think the Miata is #1. But if you want a little more of a kick in the pants I'd go S2000. Ah, and rollbars are nice too.

The problem here is that you're an old fart. Your view is skewed

Clearly you can not choose a Z4, as there is too much technology involved. And clearly you can not choose a Boxster, because you should have bought a 911. And clearly you can not choose a TT because your grandmother will think it's cute. And clearly you can not choose a 350Z because it's a lard ass. And clearly you can not choose a Z3 because it's an overpriced overweight Miata. Which brings us to the Miata which will remove your head should it go belly side up.

So CLEARLY the only choice in the matter is the S2000.

CLEARLY!

 

[LoudMusic]

Wow, lots of arguing going on here. No problem, it's for my benefit as it seems.

I will look into S2000s, but if the insurance is too high then I wont bother.

Found this on autotrader:

There's a way to ruin a sports car. FAIL!

Argument schmargument. /////////M is just a confused old fart. Eventually he'll fall asleep in his rocker and we'll draw on his face.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Welcome to GTP, where we can't agree on the color of ****

This thread is a group hug at the finish line compared to some of real arguments we're had around here. Take a gander at all 124 pages of the GTR thread, if you dare.


M

I already know where that is headed.

Hmm...I was looking at a BMW 850i and thought; are there any other big GT coupes with manual transmissions? The 850 and 840 are too old now and have too many miles, otherwise they sound appealing. Maintenence and gas on a V12 would suck though.

Boxsters have better weight distribution than a 911 and they are cheaper, two things that are good in my book.

 

[Leonidae]

there's plenty of older V12 ( 70's / 80's) Jaguars, but i don't even dare to think about how much their maintenance is.. but take a look.

 

[Heldenzeit]

there's plenty of older V12 ( 70's / 80's) Jaguars, but i don't even dare to think about how much their maintenance is.. but take a look.

I used to work at an independent Jaguar repair shop. It seems that all we ever had in there were XJ-S's. They are wonderfull cars to drive, but any kind of maintenence on those cars are a real pain.

Here's a decent one though.

 

[LoudMusic]

7 series had a V12.

 

[Heldenzeit]

S2000

This one has the perfect color combo. Low miles, price is within budget. Huge aftermarket for one.

 

[McLaren]

Clearly you can not choose a Z4, as there is too much technology involved.

And that has absolutely zero effect on the way that car feels to drive. I drove a Z4 Roadster the last time I was at Classic, and that car is still amazing to drive, much more than any of the S2000s I drove before settling on the Si. The amazing pickup, the incredible suspension, it was more exciting than the 330. The S2000, as nice as they were, didn't project the same feelings, but that may be because I've always been impressed with BMWs, and have never had a long history with any company like I have had with them.

BTW, exclusivity depends on locations, and I'll tell you this. I see as many Z4s as I see S2000s here, and the latter are the snobs. I've gotten snobs who have talked trash about my 5 or the TL. It's the BMW guys though, who have given me compliments on the TL, and respect the decision that I chose a 5 over other BMWs.

As far as I've seen, the BMW guys are more mature around here, and the S2K owners are nothing but young kids trying to street race 5 Series'.

Hmm...I was looking at a BMW 850i and thought; are there any other big GT coupes with manual transmissions? The 850 and 840 are too old now and have too many miles, otherwise they sound appealing. Maintenence and gas on a V12 would suck though.

You should be able to find a few low mileage 8 Series, actually. However, the problem isn't the engine or gas, it's the electronics at or around 100,000 miles, and they tend to be real expensive to repair.

7 series had a V12.

And were sometimes plagued by the same problems as above.


If you want a 7 Series Helden, get a E38 740 model. The V8's a little more reliable, and any of the E38 models are incredibly fun cars.

 

[Heldenzeit]

For now, I've really lost interest in a sedan. I dont like carting around people and I just dont need the extra space. I would much prefer an 850 over a 760. I just dont need four doors.

 

[McLaren]

Who said you had to cart people around, or that the extra space has any effect on the car? I have 3 sedans and neither is problem of any sort.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Who said you had to cart people around, or that the extra space has any effect on the car? I have 3 sedans and neither is problem of any sort.

I just dont like the idea of my friends wanting me to cart them around all the time. Only a half of all my friends drive. Pansies.

 

[McLaren]

Well, you could say, No. 💡
Never stopped me.

 

[Joey D]

I just dont like the idea of my friends wanting to cart them around all the time. Only a half of all my friends drive. Pansies.

I know how that goes, my friends are convinced my car is to small and uncomfortable to ride in.

I would say go with the Z4, I've always loved that car and I think it would the perfect choice for you. Plus you have the added benefit of telling people you own a BMW.

 

[Heldenzeit]

Well, you could say, No. 💡
Never stopped me.

Ok, you win.

Say, what is insurance like on an S2000?

 

[mustangGT90210]

S2000

This one has the perfect color combo. Low miles, price is within budget. Huge aftermarket for one.

That's perfect. I'm a sucker for that red interior, but that's the 9000RPM screamer! Go for it:tup:

 

[Heldenzeit]

Rosso S2000

This one has 10000 less miles than the silver one and has some aftermarket parts in it already. The center exhaust is the same style that I fabricated for my car. The wheels I would change, but overall I think that this one is better than the silver one.

 

[YSSMAN]

Say, what is insurance like on an S2000?

Last I checked on an S2000 for me (Male, 21, clean driving record, $500 deductible) it was about $150 a month. That's not too bad considering my Celica is $125 (same rates). The Miata, however, seems to dip down to the $115 range last I had checked... So you're going to want to triple-check with your local insurance agency.

 

[///M-Spec]

The weight comments were specifically targeting the 350Z and Z3. I honestly didn't even look up the TT.

As for features, yes I am aware the S2000 has quite a few more features than a 30 - 40 year old British roadster. But a BMW or Porsche is going to have significantly more. Like power seats with lumbar and heat, adjustable steering wheel, navigation, perhaps even bluetooth support for a phone? I don't really consider safety items to be features. Is a seat belt a feature? "Hey! This bad boys got seat belts, whoohaa boy howdy!" Not so much. Airbags go in that group, too. Now, performance enhancements like traction control and ABS may be a different story, but that's kind of gray area, and an S2000 in the $15,000 range won't have that but a BMW or Porsche will.

Not true. Have you looked at a Z4 or Boxster standard features and option list?

Without spending too much time bogged down into the minutia, an '08 S2000 ($34,300) actually has features that are not on a base spec Z4 3.0i ($36,700), like a power top (adds weight, of course) and HID headlights. Everything you listed above are actually options on the base Z4.

Let me repeat this to make it crystal clear: a base S2000 and a base Z4 have virtually the same equipment. The S has a standard power top, leather and HID headlights. The Z4 has two extra cylinders.

Look for yourself:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Cont...Z4Roadster30i/features_and_specs/default.aspx

http://automobiles.honda.com/s2000/price.aspx?Model=AP2148ENW

Here's the caveat: Z4s almost never exist in the wild without options. So power seats, which are heavy, will be common. But aside from that particular feature, most options on the Z4 are of the fairly lightweight and/or unobtrusive variety. Premium sound, universal garage door opener, heated seats, auto dimming mirrors, etc.

Bottom line is a typical Z4 is better equipped than an S2000, but very few of these features (power seats being the only exception) are either very heavy or detract from the mission of driving.

The Boxster is pretty much the same story. Almost everything is a (pricey) option on those cars.

Exclusivity and snob-appeal are not the same thing.

Yes it is. Only snobs care about exclusivity

That's more sales in one year than the three highest years of the S2000. People who drive H2s are generally considered to be snobby, but they're apparently not terribly exclusive. People who drive S2000s tend to be rare (exclusive?), but don't appear to be snobby.

Oh common. You're so snobby about the S2000 you refuse to consider the Z4 and Boxster proper roadsters Elitist much?

Anyway, if you want a 'modern' roadster I think the Miata is #1. But if you want a little more of a kick in the pants I'd go S2000. Ah, and rollbars are nice too.

This car would like to disagree. Makes the Miata look almost like an Escalade.



..and if you want a little more of a kick in the pants, my car would like to disagree too.



Yes. It's the M


BUT, in the price range the OP is looking at, the S2000 is a very good choice. Not the ONLY or BEST choice, but a pretty sweet proposition nonetheless.

The problem here is that you're an old fart. Your view is skewed

Clearly you can not choose a Z4, as there is too much technology involved. And clearly you can not choose a Boxster, because you should have bought a 911. And clearly you can not choose a TT because your grandmother will think it's cute. And clearly you can not choose a 350Z because it's a lard ass. And clearly you can not choose a Z3 because it's an overpriced overweight Miata. Which brings us to the Miata which will remove your head should it go belly side up.

So CLEARLY the only choice in the matter is the S2000.

CLEARLY!

Disagree, but A+ reply.

Argument schmargument. /////////M is just a confused old fart. Eventually he'll fall asleep in his rocker and we'll draw on his face.

Best time to catch me is when I'm dehydrated and passed out in the pool after a night of debauchery with girls half my age Hef style. If you mix up my medications, I'm liable to rant for hours about the evils of the Truman administration and how this country's gone straight to hell since John Wayne died.

I think I'm going to sig your post, though


M

 

[LoudMusic]

I have new respect for you. It doesn't really matter to me what brand you drive, so long as the top comes off and it's blue.

(The Elise is schweet, but good luck finding one for $15,000. And I prefer an automatic top - you know, old man conveniences and all.)

 

[G.T]

You want me now?