NASCAR in GT6?

[Dolph Drago]

I think NASCAR has a place in Gran Turismo. "real race cars and real racers"? Sounds like your saying us NASCAR fans aren't "real" racers. For someone that doesn't seem very literate on the matter, that's a bit narrow-minded and snobby.

I think you just summed up what I was about to post. Not sure how NASCAR cars aren't "real race cars" and those of us that like to race them aren't "real racers" like anyone who races cars from other series.

 

[iRevelationz]

I think you just summed up what I was about to post. Not sure how NASCAR cars aren't "real race cars" and those of us that like to race them aren't "real racers" like anyone who races cars from other series.

I don't understand the logic (or lack of) and probably never will.

 

[Ganon83]

Take the three manufactor cars (Chevy, Ford, Toyota), make them blank, and basically turn them into blank RMs with maybe a couple of different livery options. Then add an Oval mode to track creator where you can control distance and banking.
Boom. NASCAR without even a need for licenses and unlimited ovals to race on, and less work PD uses on the cars/tracks

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

Good idea I hope PD is reading this thread,,,,,, if someone who can add that idea to GT6 reads that idea please post here and say if that might ge added. Thanks

 

[Starciller]

We need more of every type of motorsport.Anyway is any1 here from Mooresville NC?

I'm from about an hour east of Charlotte that's somewhat close

 

[Starciller]

Take the three manufactor cars (Chevy, Ford, Toyota), make them blank, and basically turn them into blank RMs with maybe a couple of different livery options. Then add an Oval mode to track creator where you can control distance and banking.
Boom. NASCAR without even a need for licenses and unlimited ovals to race on, and less work PD uses on the cars/tracks

We have a genius here!!

 

[LVracerGT]

You opine as if you have had some cup car seat time.

Nope, but I have enough seat time in real life, along with knowing a lot about the cars themselves. Not to mention I've done a lot of physics development with mods on GTR2 and rFactor. I also developed the formula for the GTP IndyCar Series to make them feel as close to real life as possible in the game. I feel confident enough to say I know how they should feel.

We don't need MORE. There are plenty of other areas of motorsport not as well represented as NASCAR already is.

This. You nascar fanboys have your nascar games. GT doesn't need to be invaded with nascar's garbage.

I think you just summed up what I was about to post. Not sure how NASCAR cars aren't "real race cars" and those of us that like to race them aren't "real racers" like anyone who races cars from other series.

Because nascar is a joke. It's WWE on wheels. It's dirty driving, fist fights, southern hicks and cheap beer, "competition yellows" because Goodyear can't develop a tire to save its life, much like Pirelli in F1 right now, and phantom yellows to create green white checkers to create a spectacular crash at the end to keep their ratings up. People don't watch nascar for the racing, they watch it for the driver hissy fits and crashes. Not to mention nascar keeps allowing the dirty driving to happen and is not doing anything about it. I'm curious how many cars need go hit the catch fence and injure fans and drivers before they wake up. It's not real racing. Period.

200 tops? You're not very familiar with NASCAR, are you? Give the cars running room and they'll blow right past 200. The pole speed at Michigan International Speedway last June was 203 MPH AVERAGE. Drivers were hitting 215 on corner entry.

Daytona is a bigger track than Michigan with a lot more banking for cars to lean on. Naturally speeds will be higher. In reality, NASCAR slows the cars down at Daytona with restrictor plates, which cuts the horsepower in roughly half. Unrestricted(like in GT5), they would indeed hit 225-230 by themselves, as proven in test sessions.

I am familiar with nascar. And I was referring to the speeds at Daytona on GT5. I know about restrictor plates. I've been watching and been involved with racing my whole life. And you saying they would hit 225-230 is pure speculation. The fastest lap speed without restrictor plates was 218.809 mph by Bill Elliot at Talledega. I don't think that would be beaten on Daytona, a tighter and bumpier track than Talledega. That's speculation also, but my original statement is true. The speeds are not realistic with the nascar on Daytona in GT5.

I would also like to see proof of these test sessions you speak of. Never heard of them.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

Nope, but I have enough seat time in real life, along with knowing a lot about the cars themselves. Not to mention I've done a lot of physics development with mods on GTR2 and rFactor. I also developed the formula for the GTP IndyCar Series to make them feel as close to real life as possible in the game. I feel confident enough to say I know how they should feel.



This. You nascar fanboys have your nascar games. GT doesn't need to be invaded with nascar's garbage.



Because nascar is a joke. It's WWE on wheels. It's dirty driving, fist fights, southern hicks and cheap beer, "competition yellows" because Goodyear can't develop a tire to save its life, much like Pirelli in F1 right now, and phantom yellows to create green white checkers to create a spectacular crash at the end to keep their ratings up. It's not real racing. Period.



I am familiar with nascar. And I was referring to the speeds at Daytona on GT5. I know about restrictor plates. I've been watching and been involved with racing my whole life. And you saying they would hit 225-230 is pure speculation. The fastest lap speed without restrictor plates was 218.809 mph by Bill Elliot at Talledega. I don't think that would be beaten on Daytona, a tighter and bumpier track than Talledega. That's speculation also, but my original statement is true. The speeds are not realistic with the nascar on Daytona in GT5.

I would also like to see proof of these test sessions you speak of. Never heard of them.

Spoken like a true, Red Bull Driver's search pick. (in real life.)
👍

 

[carracerptp]

A few more short track ovals would be great:
bristol motor speedway
Martinsville Speedway
I wouldn't say no to Pocono. But I could pass on the cookie cutter 1.5 mile ovals.

They only have 3 different cars now so why not give us a blank one to paint?

Still, licencing is would stop that I bet.

EDIT: A dirt oval would be to much to even imagine but...

And when did more tracks/cars in GT6 become a bad thing?

 

[Ganon83]

It would be nice if they added a Whelen Mod as well. Almost every driver in America starts out in some form of the Mod at their local track.

 

[LVracerGT]

A few more short track ovals would be great:
bristol motor speedway
Martinsville Speedway
I wouldn't say no to Pocono. But I could pass on the cookie cutter 1.5 mile ovals.

They only have 3 different cars now so why not give us a blank one to paint?

Still, licencing is would stop that I bet.

EDIT: A dirt oval would be to much to even imagine but...

And when did more tracks/cars in GT6 become a bad thing?

I would never say no to more tracks, I'm arguing that GT does not need to and should not become a nascar game. We don't need every driver of every team wasting PD's time. They have way bigger issues to work on and way better cars they could and should be adding.

 

[iRevelationz]

Nope, but I have enough seat time in real life, along with knowing a lot about the cars themselves. Not to mention I've done a lot of physics development with mods on GTR2 and rFactor. I also developed the formula for the GTP IndyCar Series to make them feel as close to real life as possible in the game. I feel confident enough to say I know how they should feel.



This. You nascar fanboys have your nascar games. GT doesn't need to be invaded with nascar's garbage.



Because nascar is a joke. It's WWE on wheels. It's dirty driving, fist fights, southern hicks and cheap beer, "competition yellows" because Goodyear can't develop a tire to save its life, much like Pirelli in F1 right now, and phantom yellows to create green white checkers to create a spectacular crash at the end to keep their ratings up. People don't watch nascar for the racing, they watch it for the driver hissy fits and crashes It's not real racing. Period.



I am familiar with nascar. And I was referring to the speeds at Daytona on GT5. I know about restrictor plates. I've been watching and been involved with racing my whole life. And you saying they would hit 225-230 is pure speculation. The fastest lap speed without restrictor plates was 218.809 mph by Bill Elliot at Talledega. I don't think that would be beaten on Daytona, a tighter and bumpier track than Talledega. That's speculation also, but my original statement is true. The speeds are not realistic with the nascar on Daytona in GT5.

I would also like to see proof of these test sessions you speak of. Never heard of them.

Actually, the fastest official lap without a restrictor plate is 212.809 set in 1987. At that time period, yes, Talladega was a slightly faster track than Daytona. A couple things need to be noted.

1. That was 26 years ago. Technology has improved, aerodynamics have improved, and engine efficiency has improved. Today's cars are A LOT faster than they were in 1987.

2. Daytona was recently resurfaced (making GT5's version outdated). It's smooth as glass now and handling is an absolute non-factor. Not only are the cars faster, but so is the track.

Sorry, but me saying 225-230 is not speculation. Here's an article from the test:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/rusty-runs-unrestricted-car-news


228 MPH. Yes it's Talladega, but trust me, it doesn't make much difference. And remember, Daytona has been resurfaced even since that test and the cars have gotten even faster.

GT5's Daytona speeds are too fast, yes. But it's because PD didn't care enough to add restrictor plates, not that the cars aren't capable of hitting 230 MPH in real life.

Also, no one is saying Gran Turismo needs to be turned into a NASCAR game. We're saying a few more tracks wouldn't hurt. 23 real-life Sprint Cup tracks. GT5 has 2.

 

[KinLM]

Nope, but I have enough seat time in real life, along with knowing a lot about the cars themselves. Not to mention I've done a lot of physics development with mods on GTR2 and rFactor. I also developed the formula for the GTP IndyCar Series to make them feel as close to real life as possible in the game. I feel confident enough to say I know how they should feel.

This. You nascar fanboys have your nascar games. GT doesn't need to be invaded with nascar's garbage.

Because nascar is a joke. It's WWE on wheels. It's dirty driving, fist fights, southern hicks and cheap beer, "competition yellows" because Goodyear can't develop a tire to save its life, much like Pirelli in F1 right now, and phantom yellows to create green white checkers to create a spectacular crash at the end to keep their ratings up. People don't watch nascar for the racing, they watch it for the driver hissy fits and crashes. Not to mention nascar keeps allowing the dirty driving to happen and is not doing anything about it. I'm curious how many cars need go hit the catch fence and injure fans and drivers before they wake up. It's not real racing. Period.

I am familiar with nascar. And I was referring to the speeds at Daytona on GT5. I know about restrictor plates. I've been watching and been involved with racing my whole life. And you saying they would hit 225-230 is pure speculation. The fastest lap speed without restrictor plates was 218.809 mph by Bill Elliot at Talledega. I don't think that would be beaten on Daytona, a tighter and bumpier track than Talledega. That's speculation also, but my original statement is true. The speeds are not realistic with the nascar on Daytona in GT5.

I would also like to see proof of these test sessions you speak of. Never heard of them.

Biggest load of crap I've read all day.

I don't want more NASCAR in GT6. I don't want any really, since PD do a suckey job of incorporating it.

The cars don't handle well. But look at their weight. They don't need to, they spend most of their time on ovals. If they handled like F1 cars then there would be almost no car control needed and the races would suck.

But what pisses me off are all of your stereotypes. That's a huge load of garbage to say that nobody watches it for the racing. I, and my friends, certainly do. You get far more wheel to wheel action than any other sport.

To say it's not real racing is total ignorance. It's very real racing whether you're a fan of it or not. The dirty driving is simply a characteristic of it.

And those "drunk hicks" stereotypes you keep making? Well, I don't know how many fans of any sport will tailgate for over a WEEK to watch the race. It's the worlds largest spectator sport.

I don't want NASCAR in another GT game. But everything you're posting in this thread is ignorant rubbish that's only going to anger people considering its a NASCAR positive thread.

What the hell are you thinking doing this? If you don't want NASCAR in GT6 then just simply put it. But you don't have to make ignorant assumptions about how "It isn't real racing" and such because that's simply ignorant riff raff that's gonna get everybody stirred up in this thread. Use some common sense.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

I agree and NASCAR is only going to get more popular so GT should go ahead and add more NASCARs and tracks

 

[avens]

Current nascar is an americanized version of european racing, spectacle-oriented based on their demographic. Some prefer american football over rugby (first is more popular), some prefer nascar over f1 (the opposite). What PD should do is having both, just like there's ketchup and mayo on restaurants or speed transmitting both racing categories.

edit: Both are equally badly implemented in GT5. 2 F1 cars implemented in lackluster fashion, Nascar got more content but even worse racing and physics.

And just to clarify, pirelli itself is not the reason behind F1 currently being endurance racing-ish. They build the tires based on F1's specifications, to the point they said they could do tires twice better than the current ones. That move was made in order to make F1 more spectacle-oriented no matter if it hurt the actual sport, same goes to kers and drs, and it worked wonders compared to the schumi era.

 

[iRevelationz]

Biggest load of crap I've read all day.

I don't want more NASCAR in GT6. I don't want any really, since PD do a suckey job of incorporating it.

The cars don't handle well. But look at their weight. They don't need to, they spend most of their time on ovals. If they handled like F1 cars then there would be almost no car control needed and the races would suck.

But what pisses me off are all of your stereotypes. That's a huge load of garbage to say that nobody watches it for the racing. I, and my friends, certainly do. You get far more wheel to wheel action than any other sport.

To say it's not real racing is total ignorance. It's very real racing whether you're a fan of it or not. The dirty driving is simply a characteristic of it.

And those "drunk hicks" stereotypes you keep making? Well, I don't know how many fans of any sport will tailgate for over a WEEK to watch the race. It's the worlds largest spectator sport.

I don't want NASCAR in another GT game. But everything you're posting in this thread is ignorant rubbish that's only going to anger people considering its a NASCAR positive thread.

What the hell are you thinking doing this? If you don't want NASCAR in GT6 then just simply put it. But you don't have to make ignorant assumptions about how "It isn't real racing" and such because that's simply ignorant riff raff that's gonna get everybody stirred up in this thread. Use some common sense.

Very well said, all of it. Some people need to grow up and learn some manners.

*standing ovation*

 

[LVracerGT]

Biggest load of crap I've read all day.

The cars don't handle well. But look at their weight. They don't need to, they spend most of their time on ovals. If they handled like F1 cars then there would be almost no car control needed and the races would suck.

I never said they should handle well. I know they don't handle well, when in GT5 they handle as good as a purpose built road course race car, say the Corvette RM for example. Which isn't realistic, which is the point I was making. I don't know how much clearer I can make that. Maybe try reading what I actually type before you accuse me of something I didn't say.

You get far more wheel to wheel action than any other sport.

Absolutely false statement. The reason the cars stay side by side is because of the restrictor plates which forces bump drafting and pack racing. If you want real wheel to wheel racing, watch IndyCar. Those guys go wheel to wheel at higher speeds and don't touch because of the obvious consequences. That, my friend, takes real skill. It doesn't take much talent to put a fender on the guy next to you to wreck him or move him out of the way. It takes MUCH more talent to adjust your front and rear bars to get the car to handle better and then run inches from the guy next to you and complete a CLEAN pass.

To say it's not real racing is total ignorance. It's very real racing whether you're a fan of it or not. The dirty driving is simply a characteristic of it.

To say it's not real racing is not ignorance, it's fact based opinion. Racing in nascar is as real as WWE wrestling. It looks real, but it's controlled.

I agree and NASCAR is only going to get more popular so GT should go ahead and add more NASCARs and tracks

You should try doing some research before you make claims. Nascar is losing TV ratings and fans. Have you seen the stands at the races this season? They're almost bare. Bristol looked like they had to give away tickets.

 

[Northstar]

You should try doing some research before you make claims. Nascar is losing TV ratings and fans. Have you seen the stands at the races this season? They're almost bare. Bristol looked like they had to give away tickets.

There aren't really any racing series' currently that aren't losing fans, even F1 is losing fans.

Also, the only "real" racing is rally racing.

 

[iRevelationz]

Absolutely false statement. The reason the cars stay side by side is because of the restrictor plates which forces bump drafting and pack racing. If you want real wheel to wheel racing, watch IndyCar. Those guys go wheel to wheel at higher speeds and don't touch because of the obvious consequences. That, my friend, takes real skill. It doesn't take much talent to put a fender on the guy next to you to wreck him or move him out of the way. It takes MUCH more talent to adjust your front and rear bars to get the car to handle better and then run inches from the guy next to you and complete a CLEAN pass.


To say it's not real racing is not ignorance, it's fact based opinion. Racing in nascar is as real as WWE wrestling. It looks real, but it's controlled.

And again, your severe lack of knowledge is showing. Restrictor plates are only used at Daytona and Talladega. That doesn't mean tight racing isn't possible on other tracks, whether it be with or without contact. Even at plate tracks, you're running 200 MPH with a car a foot in front of you, a foot left of you, a foot right of you, and foot behind you. One small mistake by anyone and half the field is gone. If that's what you call easy, you should immediately stop wasting time on internet forums and get out there and win yourself about 30 consecutive IndyCar titles. But being that you're still here, there's no cause for concern.

I've been here over 6 years and I still don't know how to properly embed a YouTube video, but have a look at these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5jqTIBUaFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEtH-RZq91s

You've proven how immature and disrespectful you are with your stereotypes. After watching those, if you can still tell me that's not real racing and it doesn't require talent, you're nothing more than a fanboy and a troll with an inflated ego.

 

[carracerptp]

I would never say no to more tracks, I'm arguing that GT does not need to and should not become a nascar game. We don't need every driver of every team wasting PD's time. They have way bigger issues to work on and way better cars they could and should be adding.

I agree on the first part.

The second part depends on the player.

Absolutely false statement. The reason the cars stay side by side is because of the restrictor plates which forces bump drafting and pack racing. If you want real wheel to wheel racing, watch IndyCar. Those guys go wheel to wheel at higher speeds and don't touch because of the obvious consequences. That, my friend, takes real skill. It doesn't take much talent to put a fender on the guy next to you to wreck him or move him out of the way. It takes MUCH more talent to adjust your front and rear bars to get the car to handle better and then run inches from the guy next to you and complete a CLEAN pass.

Only 2 tracks run plates, and bump drafting only happens at those tracks normally.

I take it you don't watch this sport often so I don't see why it's a big deal if someone dares to want Nascar (sprint cup) over say Grand-am.

 

[Dolph Drago]

I think everything iRevelationz and KinLM said holds true. I have no idea what could have happened to make you so biased against NASCAR. From what I've read, every statement made sounds like you've never watched a NASCAR race in your life other than maybe highlights on ESPN.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

NASCAR would have more fans if Dodge (mopar) were still in it but thats another topic all together.

 

[LVracerGT]

And again, your severe lack of knowledge is showing. Restrictor plates are only used at Daytona and Talladega.

You keep assuming I have a lack of knowledge about nascar. You shouldn't assume, it makes you look like a fool. I'm well aware those are the only two tracks that use restrictor plates, and the regulations of the cars and the way the races are operated.

If that's what you call easy, you should immediately stop wasting time on internet forums and get out there and win yourself about 30 consecutive IndyCar titles. But being that you're still here, there's no cause for concern.

This right here leads me to believe you know very little about racing, because if you did you would know the amount of money it takes to even get started, let alone get to a top tier series. This was nothing more than a personal shot at me, and you have no idea how hard I've tried to get into racing and what I've gone through to be unsuccessful so far and how frustrating it is. And if you don't believe me, I would love to prove you wrong and shove those words down your throat. I've already made a fool out of one person on these forums for thinking I can't drive, and it was live streamed and commentated on by the GTPodcast crew.

Strike one.

You've proven how immature and disrespectful you are with your stereotypes... you're nothing more than a fanboy and a troll with an inflated ego.

First, it's not a stereotype when the majority of nascar fans are poorly educated southerners. That's not a shot, it's a fact. Anyone who's been to a nascar race and looked around won't take long to figure that out. Your personal attack against me in the second part of that quote, is immature and disrespectful, and against the AUP.

Strike two.

If you can't argue with me without attacking me personally, the get lost. I will not hesitate to report you if you do this again.

I think everything iRevelationz and KinLM said holds true. I have no idea what could have happened to make you so biased against NASCAR. From what I've read, every statement made sounds like you've never watched a NASCAR race in your life other than maybe highlights on ESPN.

Again, blatant assumptions. And I'm not biased, I'm strongly opinionated. My first exposure to motorsports was nascar and I watched when Ricky Rudd won the Brickyard 400. I've been in touch with nascar for a long time. My opinions are a product of years of watching the sport and seeing what has gone on with the way the series conducts itself.

 

[iRevelationz]

You keep assuming I have a lack of knowledge about nascar. You shouldn't assume, it makes you look like a fool. I'm well aware those are the only two tracks that use restrictor plates, and the regulations of the cars and the way the races are operated.



This right here leads me to believe you know very little about racing, because if you did you would know the amount of money it takes to even get started, let alone get to a top tier series. This was nothing more than a personal shot at me, and you have no idea how hard I've tried to get into racing and what I've gone through to be unsuccessful so far and how frustrating it is. And if you don't believe me, I would love to prove you wrong and shove those words down your throat. I've already made a fool out of one person on these forums for thinking I can't drive, and it was live streamed and commentated on.

Strike one.



First, it's not a stereotype when the majority of nascar fans are poorly educated southerners. That's not a shot, it's a fact. Anyone who's been to a nascar race and looked around won't take long to figure that out. Your personal attack against me in the second part of that quote, is immature and disrespectful, and against the AUP. Strike two.

If you can't argue with me without attacking me personally, the get lost. I will not hesitate to report you if you do this again.



Again, blatant assumptions. And I'm not biased, I'm strongly opinionated. My first exposure to motorsports was nascar and I watched when Ricky Rudd won the first Brickyard 400. I've been in touch with nascar for a long time. My opinions are a product of years of watching the sport and seeing what has gone on with the way the series conducts itself.

So you tell me I look like a fool for making assumptions (that are based off your posts), then you turn around and make assumptions off my posts.

Strike one.

You're labeling most NASCAR fans as idiots. Whether it's a fact or not, it's disrespectful. I'm a NASCAR fan, and although I'd consider myself to have above-average intelligence, I still take your label as an insult to both me and the sanctioning body I enjoy.

Strike two.

You started the insults. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. I will not hesitate to report you if you do this again.

Oh and by the way. Ricky Rudd didn't win the first Brickyard 400. Just saying.

 

[Ganon83]

Dale Earnhardt was the first man to win the Brickyard 400

 

[LVracerGT]

So you tell me I look like a fool for making assumptions (that are based off your posts), then you turn around and make assumptions off my posts.

Strike one.

You're labeling most NASCAR fans as idiots. Whether it's a fact or not, it's disrespectful. I'm a NASCAR fan, and although I'd consider myself to have above-average intelligence, I still take your label as an insult to both me and the sanctioning body I enjoy.

Strike two.

You started the insults. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. I will not hesitate to report you if you do this again.

Oh and by the way. Ricky Rudd didn't win the first Brickyard 400. Just saying.

Go ahead and report me, I never singled you out or personally insulted or attacked you. You sir have, which is grounds for banning. On top of that, you mock me. Who's being immature and disrespectful again? Oh yeah, you. Forgot.

I would also like to know like to know what assumptions I made of your posts? I made none. I stated one instance where you were quoted making a blatantly obvious shot at me. And my bad on the 400 reference, I was very young when it happened. I'll go back and edit my post so it's correct.

 

[iRevelationz]

I would also like to know like to know what assumptions I made of your posts? I made none. I stated one instance where you were quoted making a blatantly obvious shot at me. And my bad on the 400 reference, I was very young when it happened.

"This right here leads me to believe you know very little about racing, because if you did you would know the amount of money it takes to even get started, let alone get to a top tier series."

You're assuming I know little about racing based off my posts. I made assumptions based off your posts. They're both the same thing, so if my assumptions made me look like a fool, then it has to work both ways.

And what you were quoting there, I'm well aware it takes a lot of money to get into racing. Simple sarcasm. Can be difficult to pick up on via text, so I suppose that was my mistake. If money wasn't an issue, I would've played my hand years ago. I'm not, because there's simply no point as I lack the financial backing. Yeah it sucks, but that's just how it is.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

Please quit with the word wars lets get back on subject. I think it may also work to have the Daytona 500 in GT6s endurance races. I would run it.

 

[iRevelationz]

Please quit with the word wars lets get back on subject.

Not a bad idea. This has gone on long enough. Some of us want NASCAR in GT, some don't. At the end of the day, either it's in or it isn't. Not much we can do about it.

 

[LVracerGT]

"This right here leads me to believe you know very little about racing, because if you did you would know the amount of money it takes to even get started, let alone get to a top tier series."

You're assuming I know little about racing based off my posts. I made assumptions based off your posts. They're both the same thing, so if my assumptions made me look like a fool, then it has to work both ways.

And what you were quoting there, I'm well aware it takes a lot of money to get into racing. Simple sarcasm. Can be difficult to pick up on via text, so I suppose that was my mistake. If money wasn't an issue, I would've played my hand years ago. I'm not, because there's simply no point as I lack the financial backing. Yeah it sucks, but that's just how it is.

I was well aware it was sarcasm. And it seems like you're just trying to make nice now, which I have not interest in doing. This has gotten way off topic now so I'm going to remove myself from this thread.