*** New Corvette Z06 ***

[Layla's Keeper]

And yet, if you'll cross the pond with me for a moment - live4speed - to Midwestern America, then you see Corvette as a quick and stylish sports car that can be had for very little money and can be maintained by the mechanics at the local shop at the end of the street.

I should know. We had a C4 Corvette in at the shop where I work for some regular maintenance (base model coupe with an automatic) and it used the same oil filter (Parts Master part #61040) as a Caprice. When all was said and done, the oil change, transmission flush and filter, and tune up cost the customer less than when we had done his 1998 Oldsmobile Aurora.

Yes, in England - because of poor distributorship and a lack of interest because of the already huge number of sports car companies in England - the Corvette is a lackluster car in amongst its pricing peers.

But here in Ohio, it's a steal.

And as for the size of the engine and the brute ideology of the car's spirit, I seem to remember a Mr. David Brown creating a gorgeous run of cars with much the same spirit.

 

[Dave A]

I'm not saying they're not a bargain in the US, I've always said they were, were discussing European sales right now not American ones. Thats why I'm being very specific with costs and competition, I'm not a Vette hater or anything I don't mind them but over here they cost too much for what they offer.

vettes = overpriced cheap
tvrs = overpriced unreliable

How about

Vettes = Over priced, cheaply made.
TVR's = Competitively priced, hand made.

Modern TVR's arn't unreliable, AJ8 engined models were considered to be but that was down to people treating the race car engines they had the same as any other road cars engine, the AJP6 is a much better engine and doesn't need as much special treatment. Also, I don't know how you can say TVR's are overpriced when I've just clearly shown that a competitive TVR can be had for £10k less. You can't be talking about US prices since TVR don't sell over there.

 

[skicrush]

Yes over here the Cayman S is less than a C6, the Cayman S costs £43k, a C6 costs £50kand I've seen them going for £55k, the C6 gets it's hass handed to it by the £49K TVR Sagaris and is in a similar performance bracket to the TVR Tuscan speed 6 which could be had for just over £40k, the new Tuscan 2 starts at £40k and again offers C6 levels of performance. The Marcos TSO starts at £45k, you can EVEN get a Noble for less and the BMW M3 costs less. People over here will not spend £50k on a car that will cost too much to service and has a cheap interior when any of the above can be had for less, I don't know why you don't ge it, the Corvette isn't popular over here and it never has been and the C6 will be no different. We like a £50 car to have either more luxury or decide it's a proper performance car and ditch any attempt at luxury and go for all out perfomance, the Vette is like a Sports car that wants to be practical, I'm sorry but the 911 is a practical sports car that offers a much nicer interior and a better image for only a small ammount more. On top of that, try selling a Vette second hand over here, you'll get pennies for it. We already see the Vette as over priced and cheap, we WILL let the price turn us away.

I'm starting to get confused ( not like it's that hard). But you say A) You'll get pennies trying to sell a vette second hand there, 2) that vettes sell for £55k there, and D) you insinuate that the C6 is either too luxury and not enough performance, or tries too hard to be a practical sprts car (and fails to compete with the 911) in that respect.

So, announced price for a vette in the UK is £45k. You're telling me £50-55k--that suggests that people ARE able to sell them for more than pennies second hand, since they're marking them up new over MSRP. If there's that kind of demand that they can do that new, they will sell used just as well.

It sounds to me like the Speed Six is in about the same category as the vette--just a few thousand cheaper, after all the import expense. Nothing wrong with that! And yes, the Sagaris is a much faster car. It's as quick as a Z06, for about the same money as a Cayman, but less than a Z06 will go for over there. Kinda makes you wonder what everyone could do if all they had to do was meet British gov't regulations. But it is a monster--there's no questioning that!

Second, as Layla's Keeper has noted, your average mechanic can do work on a vette no problem--even in the UK. Anyone that can work on your Monaro can work on your vette, and it shouldn't be any more expensive than the Monaro to work on--its all the same componentry. Say THAT about a TVR.

Who EVER suggested that a vette ever even thought about being a luxury car? I think you're thinking about Porsche there, pal. And you say a PORSCHE is a better practical sports car for only a few thousand more? Try £13k more, for the base Carrera that isn't a whole lot of competition for the vette. Finished nicer? Sure, and it IS a Porsche. If that's what you're looking for, there's the Caddy XLR--a vette all dressed up nice, for what your Porche costs (over there). But how practical is 4.8 cubic feet of cargo volume (that's 0.14 cubic meters)? Compared to the vette's 22 cubic feet (0.66 cubic meters)? I don't think you can even get golf clubs in a Porsche! Maybe you just don't golf over there. Or maybe you just drive alone when you do.

You're really bolstering my arguement, here. It is priced about the same as all the other sports cars in its general class over there. So how is IT overpriced, while your beloved TVRs and Porsches are such great deals?

I think I've already seen the answer to that, based on info you provided--it is actually underpriced, and selling for well over MSRP.

 

[Dave A]

I think you missunderstood, a Vette here in Manchester NEW costs £50+k, a couple of years down the line, it will have lost a much higher portion of it's initial price than say a 911, Noble, Marcos or TVR. You Americans always babble on about how good the Vette is that you can drive it as an everyday car do the shopping and then put you're foot down when you want.

My comment about the 911 was simply that the 911 does that better, it has 2 more seats, okay you'll only get kid's in them but they're still there and that space can still be used for luggage and shopping as well as the storage in the front.

A TVR is not cheap to service, but it is cheaper than a lot of other sports cars and I don't have exact figures to hand regarding servicing, but if past Vettes are anything to go by it will cost a lot. And if a Vauxhall dealer CAN do it cheaper, I bet they don't. It's the managers that set the price, not the components in the car which do have a bearing on it, they ultimately don't decide it.

As for the Speed 6, you've contradicted you'reslef here, earlier I mentioned a 911 being only a few thousand more than a Vete, you said 13k isn't only, a Speed 6 can be had for 10k less than the C6, is that suddenly "just a few thousand cheaper"? It's not in the same price bracket as other cars in that performance range, The Sagaris should keep up with a Z06 and that costs less than the base C6. Many of the cars I mentioned are FASTER than the C6, the Tuscan 2 can be had for £39k, it beats the C6 on a circuit, the Noble M400 is within 5k more than the C6 and that just kicks it ass. You're comparing it to the prices of 911's over here, as much as I rate them I know you're spending a premium for the badge but the C6 is not competitivly priced and when it comes time to sell it, you'll struggle to find buyers and lose far more money than when you sell you're TVR. Also, ALL of the cars I mentioned have a niver interior and better re-sale value than the C6 so don't tell me the C6 is a bargain, it's not, if you want perfomance you can get a better car for over 10k less and not worrty about re-sale. I don't want to sound like I hate the car, it's just not worth £50+k.

 

[Joey D]

The Vettes are far from being cheaply made, GM spent billions in the development of the car. Plus its their flagship. They wouldn't let it be cheaply made. In fact its one of the better built GM's. I think you should learn about the production of the Vette before you make a comment like that. I've been to the plant in Bowling Green and I'm going back there soon on business.

Everyone I know who owns a Vette (many people) has never hada major problem with it, if they don't race it. If they race it, of course things will break.

And if the Vette doesn't provide you with the comfort you need to look at an XLR. It's a vette in Caddy clothes. In fact the Northstar was more powerful then the LS2 when it came out, GM dumbed down the XLR so it wouldn't be faster. You can easily fix that though. But I would take an XLR over a vette just due to the fact that you don't see many XLR's, plus they look damn cool.

 

[Dave A]

I didn't actually mean it like that as though it hasn't had millions spent on it, I meant along the lines of it's plastic interior, bad choice of words though. The XLR isn't on sale yet and it's set to cost around £70k. Let me ask you, Caddy XLR or BMW M5 for less, hmmmmmmm. I know what I'd pick. It's pointless arguing US made cars in the UK like the Vette, they all cost too much and lose that greta value they may have in the US.

 

[skicrush]

I think you missunderstood, a Vette here in Manchester NEW costs £50+k, a couple of years down the line, it will have lost a much higher portion of it's initial price than say a 911, Noble, Marcos or TVR. You Americans always babble on about how good the Vette is that you can drive it as an everyday car do the shopping and then put you're foot down when you want.

My comment about the 911 was simply that the 911 does that better, it has 2 more seats, okay you'll only get kid's in them but they're still there and that space can still be used for luggage and shopping as well as the storage in the front.

A TVR is not cheap to service, but it is cheaper than a lot of other sports cars and I don't have exact figures to hand regarding servicing, but if past Vettes are anything to go by it will cost a lot. And if a Vauxhall dealer CAN do it cheaper, I bet they don't. It's the managers that set the price, not the components in the car which do have a bearing on it, they ultimately don't decide it.

As for the Speed 6, you've contradicted you'reslef here, earlier I mentioned a 911 being only a few thousand more than a Vete, you said 13k isn't only, a Speed 6 can be had for 10k less than the C6, is that suddenly "just a few thousand cheaper"? It's not in the same price bracket as other cars in that performance range, The Sagaris should keep up with a Z06 and that costs less than the base C6. Many of the cars I mentioned are FASTER than the C6, the Tuscan 2 can be had for £39k, it beats the C6 on a circuit, the Noble M400 is within 5k more than the C6 and that just kicks it ass. You're comparing it to the prices of 911's over here, as much as I rate them I know you're spending a premium for the badge but the C6 is not competitivly priced and when it comes time to sell it, you'll struggle to find buyers and lose far more money than when you sell you're TVR. Also, ALL of the cars I mentioned have a niver interior and better re-sale value than the C6 so don't tell me the C6 is a bargain, it's not, if you want perfomance you can get a better car for over 10k less and not worrty about re-sale. I don't want to sound like I hate the car, it's just not worth £50+k.

WEll, I never claimed it was a bargain--just asked if it could sell over there. I think we've established that YOU wouldn't buy one. The published price for a vette in the UK is £45k. You can only really go off MSRP, since dealers will always mark a car up to whatever they can get out of it. If its selling for more, its because they are UNDER priced--ie, there is more demand for them than there is supply for them. So no, the Sagaris is actually MORE than a base C6, and yes, a Speed Six is just a few thousand less--or was it not you who said "the TVR Tuscan speed 6 which could be had for just over £40k, the new Tuscan 2 starts at £40k and again offers C6 levels of performance." That's £5k, not the £13k that separates the vette and 911. And the Noble M400 is £56k--just less than a 911 Carrera.

In any case--it's price seems to be in line with competing cars. If it's a little high for a while, that's what happens with brand new cars. The Z06 is expected to sell for more than $10k over MSRP when it first comes out--that's just the price you pay for being one of the first to get one.

I guess I was trying to be a little too objective in this heated discussion. All the reasons you keep listing for not wanting a vette are reasons (over here) most people would list for NEVER wanting a Porsche. Except "cheap" would be traded for "stuck up" or "eurosnob." But that deosn't mean that Porsche shouldn't or can't sell cars here. Just like I don't think your views should be considered as general views, and just like I think the Corvette will do fine in Europe and the UK.

 

[Dave A]

I can gaurentee you that theres no demand here for the Vette.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/cadillac-corvette-08-05-05.asp?switched=on&echo=10800462
The list price is £46k for the coupe and £52k for the convertible, I haven't seen ANY coupe's for sale yet exept US imported ones a few months back.

The Speed 6 costs just under £40k which is still almost 7k less than a C6 coupe and over 10k less than the convertible. Also it's faster and it'll have a higher re-sell value, it's right hand drive, and it has a nicer interior. I did notice that the XLR is listed a lot cheaper on that site I linked than what I saw before so that must be a low spec and the other a high spec model. You contimue to think the Vette will do fine in Europe, but EVERY European you ask weather they like the Vette or not will tell you that it won't. We have cars that perfrom as well, have a nicer interior, hold value better and are cheaper, so why choose the Vette.

I don't disslike the C6 Vette, but I know it won't sell well over here, I know it's not a bargain over here compared to the US. No Corvette will pull the rich away from Porsche and the majority or people who bought a C5 Corvette in the UK were Americans. Guess what, theres not many of them here that can afford one. Also as I mentioned before, the Vettes are left hand drive ony, we drive on the left side of the road which means it's harder to drive, you can't see past the car infront as well to overtake, manouver ect. I can think of one reason to buy the C6, two if you count it's looks. The other is it actually does handle well, but then so does a TVR, Marcos, Noble, Weissman ect.

 

[skicrush]

I can gaurentee you that theres no demand here for the Vette.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/cadillac-corvette-08-05-05.asp?switched=on&echo=10800462
The list price is £46k for the coupe and £52k for the convertible, I haven't seen ANY coupe's for sale yet exept US imported ones a few months back.

The Speed 6 costs just under £40k which is still almost 7k less than a C6 coupe and over 10k less than the convertible. Also it's faster and it'll have a higher re-sell value, it's right hand drive, and it has a nicer interior. I did notice that the XLR is listed a lot cheaper on that site I linked than what I saw before so that must be a low spec and the other a high spec model. You contimue to think the Vette will do fine in Europe, but EVERY European you ask weather they like the Vette or not will tell you that it won't. We have cars that perfrom as well, have a nicer interior, hold value better and are cheaper, so why choose the Vette.

I don't disslike the C6 Vette, but I know it won't sell well over here, I know it's not a bargain over here compared to the US. No Corvette will pull the rich away from Porsche and the majority or people who bought a C5 Corvette in the UK were Americans. Guess what, theres not many of them here that can afford one. Also as I mentioned before, the Vettes are left hand drive ony, we drive on the left side of the road which means it's harder to drive, you can't see past the car infront as well to overtake, manouver ect. I can think of one reason to buy the C6, two if you count it's looks. The other is it actually does handle well, but then so does a TVR, Marcos, Noble, Weissman ect.

Do you have any facts to back up your assertions? Most C5's bought were bought by Americans? I could claim that most Porsches are bought by Germans, and who would you be to say otherwise? TVR and Corvette are cut from the same cloth. I can't blame brits for not liking them better than TVRs in the least. But I'm not familiar with anything on the continent that would compete with a TVR or vette at their general price range (which is much less than a porsche with comparable performance), and there is no TVR on the continent. So, the Vette looks like a pretty good deal to me! In fact, your whole arguement that vettes won't sell in the UK is based on the assumption that ANYONE would rather buy a TVR than a vette, which is completely rediculous.

And there is no other spec for the XLR, except the XLR-V, which hasn't even had it's price released in the states yet.

 

[svtsnake]

Modern TVR's arn't unreliable, AJ8 engined models were considered to be but that was down to people treating the race car engines they had the same as any other road cars engine, the AJP6 is a much better engine and doesn't need as much special treatment. Also, I don't know how you can say TVR's are overpriced when I've just clearly shown that a competitive TVR can be had for £10k less. You can't be talking about US prices since TVR don't sell over there.

you cant because it would be expensive as F. and when was the last time a TVR engine was used in another car?
infact has TVR ever won a 24hour race?

i dont have any experience with tvr nor do i care about them, but from what i hear even if it is hand made, it still feels cheap and ver unreliable like most british cars.

 

[Dave A]

When was the last time a C6-R used the same components as the base C6, NEVER don't start comparing a factory run race car to a road car. As for a TVR in the US, yes it would be very pricey they're too small to sell cheap in the US and make a profit.

As for other cars that will compete with the Vette on the same price level, theres loads. We get Noble's, Marcos's, Weissman's, the BMW M3 is only a little higher than the C6 convertible as is the Delfino, Jaguar's, the Evo FQ, I could go on for hours really but I can't be that arsed. I use TVR as an example because it's probably the closest to Corvette principles we have along with Marcos, these cars all offer the performance, nicer interior, better re-sale, right hand drive and a lower or similar cost, they are all reasons not to get the Vette.

If you have trouble believing that Europeans won't buy the Vette in General, do a poll for European users and see what the choose, pick say 20-25 cars similar price and performance and the C6. I can tell you what the most popular cars might be, living in Europe does give you a good idea what people generally like. I know people I work with generally wouldn't consider a Vette over here, in the US maybe but I've only worked with ONE person who woud consider a Vette in the UK, in 4 years and plenty would choose the other cars.

 

[svtsnake]

When was the last time a C6-R used the same components as the base C6, NEVER don't start comparing a factory run race car to a road car. As for a TVR in the US, yes it would be very pricey they're too small to sell cheap in the US and make a profit.

they both use the same 7.0 427 v8, the c6r is more strung out/built.
my point exactly, if tvr was so great why didnt they even turn them into racecas?
i mean they are so powerful and handle pretty great, surely they could follow rules and build a race car to actually compete right?

As for other cars that will compete with the Vette on the same price level, theres loads. We get Noble's, Marcos's, Weissman's, the BMW M3 is only a little higher than the C6 convertible as is the Delfino, Jaguar's, the Evo FQ, I could go on for hours really but I can't be that arsed. I use TVR as an example because it's probably the closest to Corvette principles we have along with Marcos, these cars all offer the performance, nicer interior, better re-sale, right hand drive and a lower or similar cost, they are all reasons not to get the Vette.

If you have trouble believing that Europeans won't buy the Vette in General, do a poll for European users and see what the choose, pick say 20-25 cars similar price and performance and the C6. I can tell you what the most popular cars might be, living in Europe does give you a good idea what people generally like. I know people I work with generally wouldn't consider a Vette over here, in the US maybe but I've only worked with ONE person who woud consider a Vette in the UK, in 4 years and plenty would choose the other cars.

i believe Europeans dont buy the vette cuz its american/expensive, and you're right about interior, but thats the only thing that lacks with the vette. other than that the engine is pretty good, not many cars have dry sump oil lubrication. and you can most certainly bet that the ls7's will be put into other cars/racecars.

 

[Dave A]

TVR do make race cars, they didn't enter a factory team into the LeMan 24hr's so what, neither did a lot of sportscar manufacturers. If you think that having a race car means you're road car is suddenly better you're wrong. The C6-R has different chassis componenets, suspension engine tuning it's a different car. It's very diferent. TVR have won loads of GT races in European GT series.

Why do European sports cars sell well in Europe but not in the US? And vice versa is the real question. It's all about the market's, what appeals to you doesn't quite hit the spot over here. Sure th LS7 is a great engine, the Marcos TSO uses it, but so's the AJP6, the difference is, TVR don't want the AJP6 in other cars, they get asked but they always say no, it';s about exclusivity you see. You won't find parts on you're TVR in other cars, thats a plus point for many people, Europeans LOVE exclusivity be it a good thing or a bad thing. The Corevttes track performance is very good, but I don't see the kind of person ho buy's a Vette ever going faster than what he normally would on a motorway which he can do in any number of sports cars. Again the Vette is left hand drive, now for the UK in particular, thats a big downer, it has a HUGE effect when it comes to selling and it also can up you're insurance. I agree that the C6 is a good car, it's offers good performance, good build quality despite the plastic interior and in the US at least, it's cheap, but over here it just doesn't add up as well when you combine the details like the interior with the left hand drive, the higher price, the lower re-sale. There may be an element of it's American, boo with some people I won't say there isn't. I wouldn't by one for the reasons give earlier and that'd be the case with a few people I know. I can see Corvettes on a daily basis if I want to, and I have been in one, and in the US you get this whole it's the best bang for you're bucks thing going, it'd need that over here AND right hand drive to get Brit's interested.

 

[Famine]

TVR do make race cars, they didn't enter a factory team into the LeMan 24hr's so what, neither did a lot of sportscar manufacturers.

Not to mention the fact that TVR are a cottage car maker - they just don't turn in enough profit, even with the Russian investment.

As for "demand" in Europe, I intend to test drive a C6 when the opportunity arises.

 

[Elegy]

Would TVR even be allowed to enter a race car? IIRC, don't they have that philosophy that anti-lock brakes, traction control systems, and airbags aren't really safety devices and therefore shouldn't be included on any car? Airbags I understand, but does anyone know if there are rules regarding the presence of traction control and anti-lock brakes in enduro racing? If not, then forget I said anything.

 

[Famine]

You won't find ABS on a race car. EVER.

TVR did enter Le Mans in 2004 and 2003. They just didn't this year.

 

[Elegy]

Huh. How very strange-brake lockups cause their fair share of accidents...but then again, maybe that should've tipped me off. Bah, forget it, I'm a moron.

 

[skicrush]

TVR do make race cars, they didn't enter a factory team into the LeMan 24hr's so what, neither did a lot of sportscar manufacturers. If you think that having a race car means you're road car is suddenly better you're wrong. The C6-R has different chassis componenets, suspension engine tuning it's a different car. It's very diferent. TVR have won loads of GT races in European GT series.

Why do European sports cars sell well in Europe but not in the US? And vice versa is the real question. It's all about the market's, what appeals to you doesn't quite hit the spot over here. Sure th LS7 is a great engine, the Marcos TSO uses it, but so's the AJP6, the difference is, TVR don't want the AJP6 in other cars, they get asked but they always say no, it';s about exclusivity you see. You won't find parts on you're TVR in other cars, thats a plus point for many people, Europeans LOVE exclusivity be it a good thing or a bad thing. The Corevttes track performance is very good, but I don't see the kind of person ho buy's a Vette ever going faster than what he normally would on a motorway which he can do in any number of sports cars. Again the Vette is left hand drive, now for the UK in particular, thats a big downer, it has a HUGE effect when it comes to selling and it also can up you're insurance. I agree that the C6 is a good car, it's offers good performance, good build quality despite the plastic interior and in the US at least, it's cheap, but over here it just doesn't add up as well when you combine the details like the interior with the left hand drive, the higher price, the lower re-sale. There may be an element of it's American, boo with some people I won't say there isn't. I wouldn't by one for the reasons give earlier and that'd be the case with a few people I know. I can see Corvettes on a daily basis if I want to, and I have been in one, and in the US you get this whole it's the best bang for you're bucks thing going, it'd need that over here AND right hand drive to get Brit's interested.

The Marco TSO does not use the LS7. Nothing besides the Z06, and maybe some GM concepts will get that engine for a while, if ever. The Marcos uses the 6.0 LS2 like the Monaro, if it uses anything, not the 7.0 LS7.

I refuse to believe that Europeans in general are as narrow minded as it is being suggested they are. Americans buy plenty of European and Japanese cars, and I think that most Europeans would consider themselves more open minded than Americans. While I think it goes without question that Americans are more interested in "hard numbers" and performance, I think it can also be said that Europeans are more interested in refinement and feel. Plus, lack of British RHD won't be a downer.

But neither of those statements should be construed as all encompassing. Just like many European makes sell a lot of vehicles in the states, based on Americans preferring their strengths over the "classic" Amican preferences, I think that a good number of Europeans will be interested in the Vette's strengths enough to purchase one. They do, after all, cost less and still beat the first two or three levels of the 911 as far as track performance goes, and the Z06 will beat them all, still for less than almost all the 911 line. (And I dont 'want to hear any TVR crap--they aren't sold in Europe. And they're as rough (or rougher) than the viper, and that's enough reason for a lot of people to buy vettes instead of vipers, so I imagine there will be a decent few who WILL prefer a vette over a TVR, even in the UK.)

 

[Dave A]

Sorry, that was my mistake about the Marcos. As for sales, American cars sell in Europe, cars like the Focus, cars like the Corvette never have. I'm not talking about everyday family cars, the few family cars we get from America sell ok-ish. It's more the sporty cars. It's no coincidence that the only American cars that get given a good on handling are the ones that have been tested over here, it's because our roads are different. IMy comment about US cars not selling in europe and vice versa may have been missleading, sure the Focus sells well here but theres only a fraction of American cars on sale in Europe altogether, and vice versa. American companies don't market their cars over here for a reason, and it's not because they will sell well, again you can switch that round. As much as you can't see it, Brit's will not buy a left hand drive Corvette or more than a right hand drive, faster, cheaper TVR Tuscan. The Vette has performance going for it, the TVR has that and the fact that it's cheaper to insure, right hand drive and will kep it's value more. Again I'm just using TVR as an example, theres a lot of cars that you can use this principle with.

As for the 911, it's all image. You get little kudos turning up in a Vette, you get lots in a 911. The 911 is the biggest automotive penis extension you can buy, simple as. Buy a Porsche, you're buying a great car and a great badge, buy the Vette and you're buying a great car, rich people couldn't care less that it's cheaper, if it was someone concerned about cost, they'd buy something cheaper than the Vette.

 

[skicrush]

Sorry, that was my mistake about the Marcos. As for sales, American cars sell in Europe, cars like the Focus, cars like the Corvette never have. I'm not talking about everyday family cars, the few family cars we get from America sell ok-ish. It's more the sporty cars. It's no coincidence that the only American cars that get given a good on handling are the ones that have been tested over here, it's because our roads are different. IMy comment about US cars not selling in europe and vice versa may have been missleading, sure the Focus sells well here but theres only a fraction of American cars on sale in Europe altogether, and vice versa. American companies don't market their cars over here for a reason, and it's not because they will sell well, again you can switch that round. As much as you can't see it, Brit's will not buy a left hand drive Corvette or more than a right hand drive, faster, cheaper TVR Tuscan. The Vette has performance going for it, the TVR has that and the fact that it's cheaper to insure, right hand drive and will kep it's value more. Again I'm just using TVR as an example, theres a lot of cars that you can use this principle with.

As for the 911, it's all image. You get little kudos turning up in a Vette, you get lots in a 911. The 911 is the biggest automotive penis extension you can buy, simple as. Buy a Porsche, you're buying a great car and a great badge, buy the Vette and you're buying a great car, rich people couldn't care less that it's cheaper, if it was someone concerned about cost, they'd buy something cheaper than the Vette.

That's all well and good, but like I said, I don't see what real competition the vette has besides TVR, and as they only sell TVR (and Nobles and Marcos) in the UK (oh yeah, plus the huge market of South Africa), British taste is hardly representative of the rest of Europe.

 

[Dave A]

Theres hundereds of like cars sold in the UK, literally hundereds of companies making light, fast, powerful sportscars. Theres a lot over the rest of Europe too, you just don't get 99% of them in the states. In the UK the Vette will fail on price and left hand drive, simple a that, in the rest of Europe theres not as much of market in general for these cars but theres plenty of competition still and it's still priced slightly above direct rivals and below prestige ones like the 911. Like I said, 911 buyers will still buy a 911 for the image, buyers concerned about cost will more likely save 15k euro's and buy a car just as fast. As far as the UK is concerned, I can be a lot more specific about the UK though, thats why I'm always using the UK as a marker. We have well over 100 sportscar specialist companies in the UK alone.

 

[Famine]

Prices will be even steeper in Scandinavia, where some countries have up to 35% tax on buying a car...

 

[skicrush]

Theres hundereds of like cars sold in the UK, literally hundereds of companies making light, fast, powerful sportscars. Theres a lot over the rest of Europe too, you just don't get 99% of them in the states. In the UK the Vette will fail on price and left hand drive, simple a that, in the rest of Europe theres not as much of market in general for these cars but theres plenty of competition still and it's still priced slightly above direct rivals and below prestige ones like the 911. Like I said, 911 buyers will still buy a 911 for the image, buyers concerned about cost will more likely save 15k euro's and buy a car just as fast. As far as the UK is concerned, I can be a lot more specific about the UK though, thats why I'm always using the UK as a marker. We have well over 100 sportscar specialist companies in the UK alone.

I guess that's the thing--the UK is a HORRIBLE marker--your gov't standards are such that many of your little boutique car companies can't sell cars outside of the UK because they dont' meet the newer standards adopted by everyone else. Its great for you having performance cars, but it is terrible for using the UK as a standard for the rest of Europe--you guys (rightly, I think) don't even use the same money as everyone else. On top of that, you keep harping on RHD--which is only an issue in Britain. Now, I'm not terribly up-to-date on all the little boutique manufacturers all ove the rest of europe, but I've never heard of ANY (and I have heard of Noble, Marcos, TVR, Caterham, etc.). And you didn't even mention one!

None of those things are bad things, but they all make the UK a terrible standard to go by.

 

[Famine]

Weismann, Koenigsegg (that's a biggie - 7'38 on only a single 'Ring lap without altering customer-adjustable factory settings or closing the track off for a private session), Donkervoort, Spyker, Gillet (getting into GT now...) - and I'm pretty sure you'll have heard of Ruf...

 

[Elegy]

It's no coincidence that the only American cars that get given a good on handling are the ones that have been tested over here, it's because our roads are different.

In and around the bigger cities, perhaps, but the further out into the backwoods you get, you'll find roads that are just as twisty, uneven, poorly maintained, and challenging to drive as any in Europe. Even in some of the towns, it gets pretty interesting; there's a few roads in the nearest town to where I live that are still cobblestone!

 

[skicrush]

Funny, isn't it, that the very car we happen to be talking about was tuned "over there."

Weismann, Koenigsegg (that's a biggie - 7'38 on only a single 'Ring lap without altering customer-adjustable factory settings or closing the track off for a private session), Donkervoort, Spyker, Gillet (getting into GT now...) - and I'm pretty sure you'll have heard of Ruf...

I've heard of all of those but Weismann--but what are the price points for those cars? Marcos and TVR definitely ARE price competitive with Corvette, but of the European makers you've listed, I've never had the impression that any of them but the Donkervoort were anywhere near £50k. Or even £70k.

 

[Dave A]

I don't see how thats funny since we all agree that the C6 handles well, it kind of backs up my point.

Okay, now onto small sportscar companies in the UK and Europe, I'm only going to list a few that I know of already rather than seach.

Pilbeam
Dax
Ginetta
L & B cars
Donkervoort
Dare
Ultima
MTX
Lamberti
Kaipan
K-1
Le Patron
Charon
Beta Plus
J.A.K.
VM
Victor
Enzmann
Black Baron
Leighton
Dutton

Okay that's off the top of my head and theres LOADS more than that. A Lot of these arn't based in the UK either.

 

[Famine]

The Weismann Roadster is an M3 in drag. It's ~£50k and slower, but easier to drive, than a Tuscan.

 

[skicrush]

OK, so now, how about a little info--price (not of their Smart car, but of their competitive model), type (not just FR, but "Donkervoort is basically a Caterham 7", "Radicals are basically road legal prototype cars", "The Weismann Roadster is an M3 in drag," etc).

From the examples that Famine threw out, it seems like they're pretty expensive, or they have the Caterham 7 philosophy--which is great, but they're definitely not "normal" cars. How many of these are really competition for 911 Carreras or M3s?

P.S. How so Famine? Do they paint rainbows on them or something?

 

[Famine]

The most obvious one on the list is the Dax. They are kit Cobras. £20,000 will buy you the kit and an engine of your choice, but rather than the lethal Cobra suspension you get a de Dion set-up. Very pleasant, and gives these fake-snakes handling to if not match the power, come rather close.

Ginettas are gorgeous - just extremely lightweight toy cars. They don't have the power to keep up on longer tracks.

Ultima uses Corvette engines, oddly, and not a lot of anything else - giving them epic power-to-weight ratios. They're really road-legal race cars.

And rainbows? Huh?