*** New Corvette Z06 ***

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Famine
(and yes - I'm aware of the one Cerbera Speed 12 which was sold, but Pink Floyd scarcely count as members of the public, and no-one else has ever driven it other than them and TVR)
TVR bought it back, used it for parts for their race cars and then re-sold it via Autotrader and had the car re-built with a few improvements. And Skicrush, I agree with that comment to a degree, but I still see middle ground pople choosing the ever more popular 911 even if they're after performance, some people will be able to get the 911 round a track faster than they could in the Z06 (this is providing there is still a gulf in the feel of the cars), because the 911 will be easier to drive fast. I completely agree that it doesn't cost much to get fast lap times, but to get cutting edge technology does, if all you care about is a fast lap for a low price you'll get a kit car of some sort or a Radical or that Jaguar Palmer thingy. People looking for a car like the 911 are after the performance AND the image, as I've said a few times I can't speak for the US, but I can gaurentee you that Porsche and Ferrari wont so much as have to bat an eyelid at European sales if the Z06 goes on sale here.
 
Swift
However, on paper(and the track), the C6 owns the Carerra. I realize that paper isn't everything, but it's true. Which would I rather drive? The Carerra for the reasons that you have described. But which is the guy with about 70-90K going to buy at mid life crisis? That's the question.

I've pointed out many times in past the C6 makes the Carrera look bad on paper.

But you don't drive a spec sheet. Numbers tell you very little about the actual driving experience. If you care about driving, then the C6 and 911 are not as far apart as the numbers make them.

In both markets --the Carrera's and the Corvette's you will have a number of people who buy the image. These are the peopel who don't really think past the marketing literature, quote 0-60 times, but drive the cars the way they would drive an Accord and couldn't get 7/10ths out of their cars to save their lives.

You will then have a number of people who are enthusiasts. Oddly, these people in some ways are even worse than the posuers because they've become convinced that their car of choice is the be-all, end all of cars and nothing-- absolutely NOTHING will shake their faith in that mantra. Rather than figuring out what they like about a car and evaluating one based on how it accomodates their needs and desires, they choose a car to worship and shape their desires based on what the car does well and even what it doesn't do well.

It's this kind of narrow-minded tunnel vision that makes diehard 911 people unable to accept how great a car the Boxster is, Corvette freaks unable accept that a car that doesn't gush torque at idle can be fast and car people in general who think transverse composite leaf springs are "old tech".

Then there is the tiny fraction of pragmatists who can evaluate a car without bias and understand that each car is a series of design, manufactuering and economic compromises; that NO car is perfect and even cars that they may not choose for themselves may have merit in someone else's eyes depending on their needs/desires.

There are too many people in group A and B, not enough people in group C.


skicrush
I think it's pretty safe to say that generally speaking, drivers that are more performance oriented are going to go for the vette, and those that are more interested in a certain feel will go for the porsche.

I don't think that is very fair to the Porsche guys. Like I said in my reply to Swift, there will be a lot of posuers who buy the name, but there are many Porsche owners who track their cars. These people are quite performance oriented. There are also your fair share of Corvette owners who do nothing but wax them and drive the speed limit on Sundays. In fact, based on my own experience, the Carrera and the Corvette have roughly equal likelyhood to attact group A owners.

As you move up to the Z06 and GT3 (or Turbo), this likelyhood decreases. But I think the percentages stay about the same.

skicrush
I admit that this whole debate comes down to an issue of what the buyer is really looking for. No one buying any of these cars will be able to wring anything close to the official ring time out of their car, but it does give you an idea what your car is capable of once you get some experience driving it.

Agreed.

IMO, the speed differential between a Carrera S and C6 is minute enough to be a wash on the street. If you're ever going fast enough to find out on a public road, you should be locked up and your car impounded. For track events, it's a bit of a different story. But I've always advocated learning to drive fast in slow cars.


M
 
///M-Spec
I've pointed out many times in past the C6 makes the Carrera look bad on paper.

But you don't drive a spec sheet. Numbers tell you very little about the actual driving experience. If you care about driving, then the C6 and 911 are not as far apart as the numbers make them.

In both markets --the Carrera's and the Corvette's you will have a number of people who buy the image. These are the peopel who don't really think past the marketing literature, quote 0-60 times, but drive the cars the way they would drive an Accord and couldn't get 7/10ths out of their cars to save their lives.

You will then have a number of people who are enthusiasts. Oddly, these people in some ways are even worse than the posuers because they've become convinced that their car of choice is the be-all, end all of cars and nothing-- absolutely NOTHING will shake their faith in that mantra. Rather than figuring out what they like about a car and evaluating one based on how it accomodates their needs and desires, they choose a car to worship and shape their desires based on what the car does well and even what it doesn't do well.

It's this kind of narrow-minded tunnel vision that makes diehard 911 people unable to accept how great a car the Boxster is, Corvette freaks unable accept that a car that doesn't gush torque at idle can be fast and car people in general who think transverse composite leaf springs are "old tech".

Then there is the tiny fraction of pragmatists who can evaluate a car without bias and understand that each car is a series of design, manufactuering and economic compromises; that NO car is perfect and even cars that they may not choose for themselves may have merit in someone else's eyes depending on their needs/desires.

There are too many people in group A and B, not enough people in group C.

M

Just so you know bud. I was agreeing with you just elaborating a little. But you eloborated better then I did so thanks! :D
 
///M-Spec
I don't think that is very fair to the Porsche guys. Like I said in my reply to Swift, there will be a lot of posuers who buy the name, but there are many Porsche owners who track their cars. These people are quite performance oriented. There are also your fair share of Corvette owners who do nothing but wax them and drive the speed limit on Sundays. In fact, based on my own experience, the Carrera and the Corvette have roughly equal likelyhood to attact group A owners.

As you move up to the Z06 and GT3 (or Turbo), this likelyhood decreases. But I think the percentages stay about the same.



Agreed.

IMO, the speed differential between a Carrera S and C6 is minute enough to be a wash on the street. If you're ever going fast enough to find out on a public road, you should be locked up and your car impounded. For track events, it's a bit of a different story. But I've always advocated learning to drive fast in slow cars.


M

I drive a VERY slow car, but I drive it as fast as I can! So, it appears I've taken your advice to heart.

I can honestly say that I'd look at both cars if they were even in the same ballpark as far as price goes. And I would honestly get the Porsche if the porsche was more to my liking. A GT2 for a Viper price, for example. All three would be contenders, especially the vette and the porsche--much better handling than the viper. All three are at home lapping with the exotics (and beating them). If I was buying one to drive and play with on track days, assuming I was comfortable with the style of all 3 I would rank them Z06-GT2-Viper. Just based on what I know about their track performance, and knowing that you can more (vette and porsche) or less (viper) live with them on a daily basis.

The Z06 is the newest--it stands to reason that it would be the fastest at the moment. And no, very few drivers will ever be able to drive theirs hard enough for it to matter. In GT4 there are races you CAN win if you just drive a little better, and then there are races that can't win--your car just isn't up to it. These top end cars are in one group (Z06, 911 Turbo, Viper, Ford GT, F430); the base models are in another (C6, Carrera). Driving will make all the difference within the first group, even though technically, anyone could rank them consistently in order of fastest to slowest. And each one has it's distinct handling characteristics. The Z06 just happens to be the most accessible. But accessiblity is a separate issue.

I never meant to say that porsche drivers were not dead serious about competing. But...

Lots of people would take a boxster over a vette, even a Z06, for the porsche name plate. Lots of others would take one for its driving dynamics (see issue 2 of www.windingroad.com). But no one would take a boxster out with the serious intent of beating a vette at anything but fit and finish.

Or, you can look at it this way--people have lots of reasons for buying what they buy. People may buy vettes because they are great bang for your buck. Great performance for less $$$. The best performance they could afford. Ever since they built the Viper, no one has bought a porsche for that reason.
 
skicrush
Lots of people would take a boxster over a vette, even a Z06, for the porsche name plate. Lots of others would take one for its driving dynamics (see issue 2 of www.windingroad.com). But no one would take a boxster out with the serious intent of beating a vette at anything but fit and finish.

You'd be very suprised bud...you'd be very suprised. :dopey:
 
Swift
You'd be very suprised bud...you'd be very suprised. :dopey:
At what? People TRYING? :dunce:

Its in the same performance group as the 350Z and the S2000. I'm sure their drivers TRY to take vettes, too, hoping for a driver that isn't even halfway decent.
 
skicrush
At what? People TRYING? :dunce:

Its in the same performance group as the 350Z and the S2000. I'm sure their drivers TRY to take vettes, too, hoping for a driver that isn't even halfway decent.

My point exactly. The general populace doesn't understand what it takes for a car to "beat" another car. 9/10 times with cars in the same class it comes down to the driver, when we're talking about track times and what not. But americans are obsessed with two things. HP and drag racing. They don't know jack about gearing or tourque or anything like that. So they see that the HP on a Boxter is about the same as a Vette so I should be able to take them at a light....

That's the surprise I'm talking about.
 
Swift
My point exactly. The general populace doesn't understand what it takes for a car to "beat" another car. 9/10 times with cars in the same class it comes down to the driver, when we're talking about track times and what not. But americans are obsessed with two things. HP and drag racing. They don't know jack about gearing or tourque or anything like that. So they see that the HP on a Boxter is about the same as a Vette so I should be able to take them at a light....

That's the surprise I'm talking about.

A light is the LAST place something like that ought to happen. The Boxster is down 160 hp (120 for the Boxster S) and 200 lbft of torque. The Vette would almost have to STALL to lose. A real (AutoX type) track is the only place where it would even think about having a chance.

The only reason someone would think it would win any kind of race is because it is a porsche. Which admittedly speaks well for their name. A carrera S is down some power too, but is a lot closer, and very close in performance. But there is a good reason a Boxster is $26k down on a Carrera.
 
skicrush
A light is the LAST place something like that ought to happen. The Boxster is down 160 hp (120 for the Boxster S) and 200 lbft of torque. The Vette would almost have to STALL to lose. A real (AutoX type) track is the only place where it would even think about having a chance.

The only reason someone would think it would win any kind of race is because it is a porsche. Which admittedly speaks well for their name. A carrera S is down some power too, but is a lot closer, and very close in performance. But there is a good reason a Boxster is $26k down on a Carrera.

Ask yourself this...are the the vette and the boxster a sports car? Are they within a few grand in price? If the answer to both is yes, then people are dumb enough to think that they have some equality on a performance level just for that reason.

Skicrush, I'm not disagreeing with you on your points you've made in the last few posts. All I'm saying is that we are in the minority of people that have a decent amount of knowledge about the automotive world. Most everyone else, is just driven by the "WOW" factor.
 
Swift
Ask yourself this...are the the vette and the boxster a sports car? Are they within a few grand in price? If the answer to both is yes, then people are dumb enough to think that they have some equality on a performance level just for that reason.

Skicrush, I'm not disagreeing with you on your points you've made in the last few posts. All I'm saying is that we are in the minority of people that have a decent amount of knowledge about the automotive world. Most everyone else, is just driven by the "WOW" factor.
Yeah, I know you weren't. I guess I was just saying how ignorant people are--there are lots of good competitive match ups. It's surprising how often so many people think bad pairings are a good idea.
 
skicrush
Yeah, I know you weren't. I guess I was just saying how ignorant people are--there are lots of good competitive match ups. It's surprising how often so many people think bad pairings are a good idea.

True true!
 
So, I guess the question is, after all this hard work, will GM sell any normal C6s, or more importantly, any Z06s in europe? And no, "over 210" doesn't really count. I know they're not terribly popular in the UK because of the no RHD thing, but what about the continent? They're gonna try--will it be worth their effort?
 
No, the Corvette will not sell well in Europe for a few reasons, one is the size of it's engine compared to rivals, we do look at that quite a bit. Second it has a plasticy interior, again thats a big no for a car in that price over here. Thirdly it has no kudos, it's not cool to own a Corvette over here, you'll get better responses from a Jag XK8 or 911 that if you pull up in a Vette. It's just overall, not the type of car Europeans in general are after regardless of it's track performance compared to a 911. Also it will be overpriced over here, a base C6 vette over here costs more than what you'd pay for a Z06 which pretty much nails the coffin shut for Europe sales.
 
Well, I do know that you guys tax displacement instead of actual mileage, which severely handicaps the corvette compared to other cars. It gets better mileage than porsche, but probably pays more tax because of the displacement.
 
skicrush
Well, I do know that you guys tax displacement instead of actual mileage, which severely handicaps the corvette compared to other cars. It gets better mileage than porsche, but probably pays more tax because of the displacement.

Actually, we don't - and the difference between 3.6 litres and 6.0 litres is nothing at all.

The UK's new car taxation system is based on emissions of carbon dioxide per mile. This also wouldn't affect any Corvette in relation to any Porsche, since they'll be in the highest band (D) anyway. And it's only £160 a year. What's that out of £50,000?
 
Famine
Actually, we don't - and the difference between 3.6 litres and 6.0 litres is nothing at all.

The UK's new car taxation system is based on emissions of carbon dioxide per mile. This also wouldn't affect any Corvette in relation to any Porsche, since they'll be in the highest band (D) anyway. And it's only £160 a year. What's that out of £50,000?
Interesting. Is that just the UK, or is that all EU countries? Our system works like this:
Ave. at least 22.5: No Tax
At least 21.5, but less than 22.5: $1000
At least 20.5, but less than 21.5: $1300
At least 19.5, but less than 20.5: $1700
At least 18.5, but less than 19.5: $2100
At least 17.5, but less than 18.5: $2600
At least 16.5, but less than 17.5: $3000
At least 15.5 , but less than 16.5: $3700
At least 14.5, but less than 15.5: $4500
At least 13.5, but less than 14.5: $5400
At least 12.5, but less than 13.5: $6400
Less than 12.5: $7700

They have a formula for combining city and highway, but it is NOT straight forward. The C6 was the first 400 hp car to avoid any gas guzzler tax, and the Z06 will be the first 500+ hp car to avoid it. I know that's not a ton of money when you're buying a car that costs that much, but with the price of petrol as high as it is over there, won't that plus the actual mileage it gets count for anything?
 
No - this is annual road tax. Tax on new car prices is constant - 17.5% - and is reflected in the sales price.
 
Famine
No - this is annual road tax. Tax on new car prices is constant - 17.5% - and is reflected in the sales price.
Damn, that's gotta hurt. Here in Delaware it's 2.75%.
 
ep, the 17.5% VAT is a stinger, we pay that on all non-wholesale puirchases..
 
Duke
Damn, that's gotta hurt. Here in Delaware it's 2.75%.
:sick: That's crazy. We pay sales tax, and the gas guzzler tax on top of that. you pay the sales tax when you register your car, so you can't just go to a state with no sales tax (like Oregon) to purchase your car. The gas guzzler tax is a one-time shot though--you pay at the pump after that. But man, your CO2 tax is crazy! 35% of the cost of the car!! Which looks like it's at least 30% for anything that costs over £25-30k! I hope I'm reading that wrong!

So, I just noticed that a Monaro costs £30k. That's $57k, for what we pay $33k for. A vette over there is about £45k for what we pay $50k for. And a BMW 330i costs £29k and $36k, and an M3 costs £42k and $47k. So, it seems like the vette's cost there is about in line with what people pay for other performance oriented cars. About £1000 less per $10,000 US cost, 330i notwithstanding. The monaro seems to sell well enough--even though it has to deal with the same disadvantages the vette has. Why will the same challenges be so prohibitive for the vette?
 
The Monaro can be serviced at any Vauxhall dealer. There's eleventy billion of them.

A Corvette could only be serviced at a Chevrolet dealer. As of last year there were none of them - though since Daewoo have now become Chevrolet, there's some again, but their expertise lies with ex-Daewoo cars, and not Corvettes..
 
Famine
The Monaro can be serviced at any Vauxhall dealer. There's eleventy billion of them.

A Corvette could only be serviced at a Chevrolet dealer. As of last year there were none of them - though since Daewoo have now become Chevrolet, there's some again, but their expertise lies with ex-Daewoo cars, and not Corvettes..

Apparently, GM has been trying to bring the vette out from under the Chevrolet brand extension to be its own brand, directly under GM. Or at least making an effort to make it appear that way, at least overseas (I wouldn't want to be associated with Chevroletwoo, either).

The Corvette is going to be sold through Cadillac Dealers, through the same company that administrates most of the (all?) Vauxhall dealerships. At least in the UK. But the engine and a lot of the components are the same, and could probably be worked on at your Vauxhall dealer.
 
We haven't got any Cadillac dealers either...

If Corvettes were to be sold they'd have to be sold either through Vauxhall dealers (NOT happening) or Corvette dealers - who could charge what they liked to service a car already 60% more expensive that it ought to be.
 
Famine
We haven't got any Cadillac dealers either...

If Corvettes were to be sold they'd have to be sold either through Vauxhall dealers (NOT happening) or Corvette dealers - who could charge what they liked to service a car already 60% more expensive that it ought to be.
What, like BMW charges 60% more than they ought to, but that's OK? The prices are nearly the same--here and there. With the same difference between them.

And I take it that there's no dealer in your neck of the woods.
There's one in London, Birmingham, and Manchester so far. They sell both Cadillacs and Corvettes. http://www.thecarfanatics.com/news/bulletins.php?show=2211041
 
skicrush
What, like BMW charges 60% more than they ought to, but that's OK?

Which BMWs are you talking about? And what does this have to do with the Corvette??


M
 
skicrush
What, like BMW charges 60% more than they ought to, but that's OK? The prices are nearly the same--here and there. With the same difference between them.

And I take it that there's no dealer in your neck of the woods.
There's one in London, Birmingham, and Manchester so far. They sell both Cadillacs and Corvettes. http://www.thecarfanatics.com/news/bulletins.php?show=2211041
We don't have any Cadillac dealers in Manchester yet. The only way to buy a Cadillac or a Corvette or pretty much ANYthing American in Manchester is through Bauer and Millet. So far theres no Cadillac dealer in Manchester and if theres a showroom being built or set up for it I've not notice it yet. I know it's been announced there will be one but there isn't one yet. And they will still cost a **** load to service just like they always have along with the Vette's. As for the comment the the Vette is 60% more than it should be, it is over here, BMW's prices are cometitive for their market, but if you mention the Vette's price over here straight away it's beaten by TVR, Marco's and others, a C6 costs more than the new Cayman S here it's well over priced.
 
skicrush
:sick: That's crazy. We pay sales tax, and the gas guzzler tax on top of that. you pay the sales tax when you register your car, so you can't just go to a state with no sales tax (like Oregon) to purchase your car. The gas guzzler tax is a one-time shot though--you pay at the pump after that. But man, your CO2 tax is crazy! 35% of the cost of the car!! Which looks like it's at least 30% for anything that costs over £25-30k! I hope I'm reading that wrong!

So, I just noticed that a Monaro costs £30k. That's $57k, for what we pay $33k for. A vette over there is about £45k for what we pay $50k for. And a BMW 330i costs £29k and $36k, and an M3 costs £42k and $47k. So, it seems like the vette's cost there is about in line with what people pay for other performance oriented cars. About £1000 less per $10,000 US cost, 330i notwithstanding. The monaro seems to sell well enough--even though it has to deal with the same disadvantages the vette has. Why will the same challenges be so prohibitive for the vette?
So, now I'm quoting myself to answer everyone's questions.

Is an M3 seriously MORE than a Cayman in the UK? This info is off the respective MFG websites today. I guess I just don't see why the vette is so overpriced. Compared to what? Is BMW as overpriced as the corvette is? I admit, one car is not a very representative sample. But the Monaro/GTO was right in line with the same cost, too. I'll check porsche.

[EDIT] Ok, here's what I found. The Cayman, is, indeed, less than the Vette in the UK at £44k. And $15k more than it in the US, where logic would argue to LOWER the price to be that much more attractive than the vette. But this logic prevails:
Autoweb
http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/614
In this case, affordability equals $58,900. That’s about $15,000 more than a 400-horsepower Chevy Corvette that sells for $43,710. There’s also the 333-horsepower BMW M3 that’ll run ya $47,300. Maybe you’d rather have a Mercedes-Benz SLK55 AMG for $60,500. And don’t forget about the toys from Nissan – a 350Z Track model offers 300 horsepower for $34,600, and a 298-horsepower Infiniti G35 coupe with a six-speed manual transmission sells for $33,350.

“Yeah, but it’s a Porsche.” That mentality, at home in the mind of one of our editors and echoed by legions of Porsche fans, will surely help make the 2006 Cayman S a success.

And Porsche is right to price their car at that level. There is a huge gap between the Boxster and the 911 Carrera. But it is the odd man out--the other cars I've looked at (including the 911s) are marked up similarly to the vette in the UK. But, I'm still checking other sports car imports.

I guess the net effect it that people that are shopping for a sports car will not be handicapped by the vette's price, since it is still quite a bit less than the 911s that will actually compete with it. And right in line with pricing of most other cars in its general ballpark. If I was GM making that decision, I'd have likely made the same decision.
 
Yes over here the Cayman S is less than a C6, the Cayman S costs £43k, a C6 costs £50kand I've seen them going for £55k, the C6 gets it's hass handed to it by the £49K TVR Sagaris and is in a similar performance bracket to the TVR Tuscan speed 6 which could be had for just over £40k, the new Tuscan 2 starts at £40k and again offers C6 levels of performance. The Marcos TSO starts at £45k, you can EVEN get a Noble for less and the BMW M3 costs less. People over here will not spend £50k on a car that will cost too much to service and has a cheap interior when any of the above can be had for less, I don't know why you don't ge it, the Corvette isn't popular over here and it never has been and the C6 will be no different. We like a £50 car to have either more luxury or decide it's a proper performance car and ditch any attempt at luxury and go for all out perfomance, the Vette is like a Sports car that wants to be practical, I'm sorry but the 911 is a practical sports car that offers a much nicer interior and a better image for only a small ammount more. On top of that, try selling a Vette second hand over here, you'll get pennies for it. We already see the Vette as over priced and cheap, we WILL let the price turn us away.
 
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