No assists, a joke?

  • Thread starter Thread starter deftonesmx17
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You want to know the real reason why sports cars come with driver aids?

Lawyers.

A lot of people that can afford fast cars don't know how to drive them and the aids help them keep their cars on the road. I'd be pretty pissed if I wrapped my new Ferrari around a pole. Of course it wouldn't be my fault, so who do I blame? Ferrari. It's their fault for making a dangerous car and they should be forced to pay me a ton of money.

Exactly.

Personally I drive AIDS free because I enjoy the challenge, and when I beat a field full of people who are using all sorts of AIDS, it makes me feel great about my speed and car control.

I have more respect for my competition if they don't use AIDS either, but thats not to say that there aren't great drivers, and I haven't had great battles with those who do.

As for the argument that real cars have AIDS, yes, many do, but for the most part, they work NOTHING like the AIDS in the game.
 
If you are good enough to keep aids from coming on then it would still be better to leave them off for when you want to push your tires to the max in the corners. (for example in order to make a pass)

I will agree with that.
In my house though it is almost impossible for me to devote my full and uninterrupted attention to the game.

I'd say my main issue is that many cars in this game do not drive like they do in real life without assists.
As an owner of an early 70's C3 Stingray, I have never lost control of it in real life and only spin the tires when trying to do so. In GT5, the car is all over the place with no assists.
 
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I will agree with that.
In my house though it is almost impossible for me to devote my full and uninterrupted attention to the game.

I'd say my main issue is that many cars in this game do not drive like they do in real life without assists.
As an owner of an early 70's C3 Stingray, I have never lost control of it in real life and only spin the tires when trying to do so. In GT5, the car is all over the place with no assists.
What tires and what speed?
Don't forget that you drive faster in GT5 than you think.
A sting ray would fall under comfort soft since their tires are kinda dry and not exactly made for performance driving.
My brother have a C3 and he drove it in GT Legends and though it was super slippery when driving with the G25 but I told him that he was driving 90 in a 40-50 corner. The tiny screen makes it harder to feel the speed.
 
^^^
I fully understand what you are saying. I hardly ever feel like I am actually going fast in GT5.

For example, no ABS in GT5 is nothing like the real car. Without ABS in GT5, even pressing (not slamming) the brakes at freeway speed (65-75mph) can cause it to slide sideways. I've never had this happen in my real C3.

It just seems like the cars in GT5 are somewhat exaggerated compared to real life.
 

Depends on your ABS system. Some allow a little wheel-lock before kicking in (allows you to hook up the brakes faster) or the brakes are strong enough for momentary lock.

Or the brake bias is tuned properly for the car, allowing a bit of rotation under braking... which many ABS systems don't... or they cause the car to rotate too much... I've had rear ends step out on me because the ABS sensors in the rear were not properly calibrated, leading to trail-braking oversteer in undesirable situations.

ABS systems are not identical. The problem is that GT doesn't only fudge up that part (though no game accurately represents the behavioural differences of various ABS systems...), it also mucks up brake balance on many cars, as well.


So... more realistic? Not really. But ABS on in GT5 is not quite realistic, either. And without data on proper brake bias, it's up to the user to figure out what is.

Dont' get me started on ASM and TCS... neither of which can accurately represent the wide range of stability/traction systems out there (and I've played with them... trying to tweak them to where they feel and react similarly to real-life systems)... or SRF... which is nothing but an arcade physics tweak disguised as an "assist".

At least GT4 gave us a means of tweaking ASM, and I've gotten some Mercs to "feel" similar to how they drive in real life with it on, but GT5 doesn't.

I've never tried turning up the ABS so I do not know how it would effect braking performance in GT5. You may be right about the "realistic" part come to think of it. Increasing ABS may exacerbate braking distance whilst still doing nothing to prevent going into a skid. You think maybe the ABS in GT5 works just in the initial moment of brake engagement?
There is certainly something fundamentally wrong with the ABS in GT5 or we wouldn't need a "skid recovery" assist as well. No ABS in the world allows you to lock up then continue in a skid until you take your foot off or hit a wall.
That's why I'm thinking it only works during initial braking.

#1 ABS should never allow you to go into a long uncontrollable skid.*

#2 Even in the event of being in such a skid the ABS should be able to pull the car out of it especially as the vehicle loses momentum.

* Dry, tarmac.
 
^^^
I fully understand what you are saying. I hardly ever feel like I am actually going fast in GT5.

For example, no ABS in GT5 is nothing like the real car. Without ABS in GT5, even pressing (not slamming) the brakes at freeway speed (65-75mph) can cause it to slide sideways. I've never had this happen in my real C3.

It just seems like the cars in GT5 are somewhat exaggerated compared to real life.
Adjust the brake bias, read this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=144575

Also do you play with a wheel or pad?...
 
I'd like to address something that is being largely overlooked here.

The "aids slow you/me down" argument.

If the aids are slowing you down that means you are making mistakes. If you were driving correctly, the aids would not be engaging. The reason why TCS-1 for example is slowing you down is because you are applying too much throttle and it has detected wheel spin. This also means that when not using aids, those same people are probably eating through tires at double the rate of others. If you are doing that, you're making mistakes pure and simple.
I own a car with Electronic Stability Control. The only time I see the ESC or ABS light flash is when I have made a mistake and the system made a response (or due to winter conditions). If I am not driving beyond the cars capabilities the systems have no reason to act upon anything.

I have no issue with those seeking a challenge. That is the only valid reason if you ask me. Even the "it makes me a better driver" logic is grasping at loose-ends. A video game is not going to make you a better real life driver as you can't feel the car like you can in real life. Therefore, real world experience is the only thing that will make you a better driver. GT5 is also not a real simulation, but merely what we like to call a simulation in the video game world.

Before anyone brings up GT Academy; it does not prove that GT made them a better driver. GT Academy merely gives those who are great at the game a chance to prove themselves on a real race track.

err. no, to go at maximum speed, you sometimes have to drive slighty over the limit, in the right time.

driving clinically like an AI will still let you go pretty fast, but very frequently a slight lockup in the rear brakes, a little power-on spin the the rear help the car rotates, keep momentum and keep revs up. With ABS and TCS on you won't have that, the effect is more evident when you drive a car that is not handling properly, where you have to manhandle it and throw it around.

As for if racing sim make you a better driver, it no doubts allow me to explore different lines and approaches, and give me a lot of seat time I won't have in a real car, the feel is different, but that's easy enough to adjust, if anything driving a real car feels more natural. However the principles or driving a real car and the associated skill is shared between a good sim and in real life. The main thing missing is just the variation in real life conditions, like being caught off with a cold brake and cold tires, or not knowing how slippery marble is on a real track etc.
 
imo it´s kind of a challenge to drive without aids, it raises the funbar for me. so i do this because i wanna have more fun and not because i´m a super-hardcore-ultra-professional sim racer :)

the only thing i turn on is abs (on 1) because pd *****d up pedal support for the g27. it´s nearly impossible to drive without it in gt5.

cheers :>
 
I'd like to address something that is being largely overlooked here.

The "aids slow you/me down" argument.

If the aids are slowing you down that means you are making mistakes. If you were driving correctly, the aids would not be engaging. The reason why TCS-1 for example is slowing you down is because you are applying too much throttle and it has detected wheel spin. This also means that when not using aids, those same people are probably eating through tires at double the rate of others. If you are doing that, you're making mistakes pure and simple.
I own a car with Electronic Stability Control. The only time I see the ESC or ABS light flash is when I have made a mistake and the system made a response (or due to winter conditions). If I am not driving beyond the cars capabilities the systems have no reason to act upon anything.

If your average laptime including mistakes is faster without AIDS, then AIDS slow you down.

It's very rare where I'm beaten online by someone using AIDS. Infact if you look at all the top drivers in any given server, they most likely don't have AIDS on.

If you're consistently winning races, without cheating or dirty tactics, then you're NOT driving incorrectly. In racing, cars are tuned to make it to the finish and fall apart as they cross the line. Conserving tires is pointless in a sprint race. It wouldn't happen in real life, so why should I do it in a game that simulates real life? I'm not making "mistakes", I'm winning races!

Have you ever watched a real race in your life? There are tonnes of lockups and skidding and occasional overdriving of the car.

AIDS are put in street cars to prevent poor unskilled drivers from driving beyond the car's capabilities for insurance reasons. They're not there to make you a faster driver, and they don't.

Not many racecars have TC or ABS despite what some here would have you believe, nevermind skid control and other unrealistic AIDS like that.
 
When I play GT5 I turn off all the aids except ABS1 unless I'm drifting then ABS is off, in real life when I own a car I turn off/take out all the aids including ABS. I don't use ABS1 in GT5 because I think thats how ABS works in real life, I use it because I can't be bothered to setup every car's brake balance to feel like a real car, it's much easier to set ABS1 as it's not a bad compromise.

I don't go around boasting that I use all aids off except ABS1 but I do find it funny the way I see people boasting about it all the time on this forum, even when it has nothing to do with the conversation, some people just have to leave everyone know they do it.

I damaged a car once IRL because of TCS and I've always hated it even before that, and I find it funny when people boast about having things like that in their real car.... kind of the opposite of GT5.
 
driving clinically like an AI will still let you go pretty fast, but very frequently a slight lockup in the rear brakes, a little power-on spin the the rear help the car rotates, keep momentum and keep revs up. With ABS and TCS on you won't have that, the effect is more evident when you drive a car that is not handling properly, where you have to manhandle it and throw it around. With ABS and TCS on you won't have that, the effect is more evident when you drive a car that is not handling properly, where you have to manhandle it and throw it around.

As for if racing sim make you a better driver, it no doubts allow me to explore different lines and approaches, and give me a lot of seat time I won't have in a real car, the feel is different, but that's easy enough to adjust, if anything driving a real car feels more natural. However the principles or driving a real car and the associated skill is shared between a good sim and in real life. The main thing missing is just the variation in real life conditions, like being caught off with a cold brake and cold tires, or not knowing how slippery marble is on a real track etc.
I'd really like to hear how a brake lockup is a good thing unless you want to force a slide. Yes it happens in real life, but you normally see it right before an accident (or interruption to normal flow) or because of a malfunction. Regardless, a slide can be force with aids as well.
If the tires are spinning, you are losing forward momentum. As for rotate, the only plus of no aids is that you can effectively force some over steer.
Also, if driving manual you can use the clutch to keep revs up. If you are racing automatic, you might as well be using aids anyways.

A car that needs manhandled is not a good handling car and should probably not be raced. I'm not sure what your experiences are, but modern cars do not need to be manhandled that much. Even old cars don't exactly need manhandled because as I stated, I have no issues in my real C3 Stingray.

It is not making you a better driver. It is making you a better video game driver. I know people who can rock GT5, but are horrid drivers in real life. GT5 is not a proper enough sim in order to. All you are learning is the track layouts of a few real world circuits and a bunch of fantasy tracks.

Adjust the brake bias, read this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=144575

Also do you play with a wheel or pad?...
This to me means GT5 is severely flawed. If cars do not even have proper brake bias (or even close approximation) by default, how on earth can anyone honestly swallow that the other individual car characteristics are even proper?

If your average laptime including mistakes is faster without AIDS, then AIDS slow you down.

It's very rare where I'm beaten online by someone using AIDS. Infact if you look at all the top drivers in any given server, they most likely don't have AIDS on.

If you're consistently winning races, without cheating or dirty tactics, then you're NOT driving incorrectly. In racing, cars are tuned to make it to the finish and fall apart as they cross the line. Conserving tires is pointless in a sprint race. It wouldn't happen in real life, so why should I do it in a game that simulates real life? I'm not making "mistakes", I'm winning races!

Have you ever watched a real race in your life? There are tonnes of lockups and skidding and occasional overdriving of the car.

AIDS are put in street cars to prevent poor unskilled drivers from driving beyond the car's capabilities for insurance reasons. They're not there to make you a faster driver, and they don't.

Not many racecars have TC or ABS despite what some here would have you believe, nevermind skid control and other unrealistic AIDS like that.

I believe you misunderstood me. A good driver will be just fine when not using aids because they are still not pushing the car and its tires past the point of relevant effectiveness.

How can you ask me if I have ever watched a real race in my life right after telling me that tire conservation is not important? Short races are not nearly as common as races where tire conservation is key due to race length.

As for "There are tonnes of lockups and skidding and occasional overdriving of the car"; these are called mistakes. They also normally lead to a car sliding off the track, almost hitting another car, spinning, etc. Not a single one of those will improve a lap time so I am not sure what point you were trying to make except for that mistakes happen.

Then there was this one, "In racing, cars are tuned to make it to the finish and fall apart as they cross the line."
Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing my ass off. Again, you asked if I watch real races ever; do you even know the regulations of Formula 1? If you did there is no way in hell you'd of made that comment. Eight engines for nineteen races is clearly not falling apart as they cross the line....

Despite what you may think, TC is used in racing. While in most sanctioning bodies it is banned, that does not mean it doesn't happen. The whole reason why Formula 1 allowed it there for a few years was because they were having so much trouble controlling its use.

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/racelogic.html
 
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How can you ask me if I have ever watched a real race in my life right after telling me that tire conservation is not important? Sprint races are not nearly as common as races where tire conservation is key due to race length.

Sprint races are very common in racing where road cars are used, which happens to be the vast majority of cars in this game.

As for "There are tonnes of lockups and skidding and occasional overdriving of the car"; these are called mistakes. They also normally lead to a car sliding off the track, almost hitting another car, spinning, etc. Not a single one of those will improve a lap time so I am not sure what point you were trying to make except for that mistakes happen.

Not true at all. Since you keep referring to F1, watch Lewis Hamilton drive. One of the fastest drivers in F1, and he's constantly sliding the car and driving at its limit. He finished his first season tied with his double world champion teammate by driving this way, so no, it doesn't lead to a car sliding off the track.

The there was this one, "In racing, cars are tuned to make it to the finish and fall apart as they cross the line."
Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing my ass off. Again, you asked if I watch real races ever; do you even know the regulation of Formula 1? If you did there is no way in hell you'd of made that comment. Eight engines for nineteen races is clearly not falling apart as they cross the line....

I'm not sure why you keep referring to F1 since out of over 1000 cars in GT5, only 2 are F1 cars. Yes, modern day F1 cars are engineered to last exactly how long the rules state they have to, and not a second longer. A few years ago when those rules didn't exist, they were engineered to last the length of one race. Over engineering slows the cars down. This is why Newey's cars, the most successful car designer in F1 are known to be some of the most fragile.

Remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEDj7uZWxyc

Despite what you may think, TC is used in racing. While in most sanctioning bodies it is banned, that does not mean it doesn't happen. The whole reason why Formula 1 allowed it there for a few years was because they were having so much trouble controlling its use.

Again with the F1. Yes TC is hard to legislate in racing series where standardized ECU's aren't used, but it's NOT used as commonly as you think it is, and it works nowhere near as well as it does in the game. The TC used in series where TC is not allowed is done through software hacks. It's quite different from the TC in road cars.
 
This to me means GT5 is severely flawed. If cars do not even have proper brake bias (or even close approximation) by default, how on earth can anyone honestly swallow that the other individual car characteristics are even proper?
No, that means that brake bias is an adjustable parameter and not locked like most of the internal parameters of every car. Almost all serious sims need some tweaks in the default setups and in that regards the tweaks needed in GT5 are minimal to obtain a proper RL handling(tyres, aids and brake bias specially if you play with no ABS).

The only "fault" of PD here is giving a default value for all cars and letting the player to select the most realistic bias in every car, but again ABS off is suposed an option for advanced users that know the basics of a car.

Pad user right?...

It is not making you a better driver. It is making you a better video game driver. I know people who can rock GT5, but are horrid drivers in real life. GT5 is not a proper enough sim in order to. All you are learning is the track layouts of a few real world circuits and a bunch of fantasy tracks.
You can rock at the game playing with a pad, aids and racing tyres and you can rock at the game playing with a wheel, clutch, without aids and comfort tyres(similar to the GT Academy rules).

In the finals of the GT Academy there was people driving sports cars very fast with no previous track experience. I doubt those people performed the same training with a pad in Mario Kart.
 
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Sprint races are very common in racing where road cars are used, which happens to be the vast majority of cars in this game.
Tire wear is important regardless of race length. Road car racers also normally can't afford a new set of tires each and every race so therefore, yes they must without a doubt be concious of tire wear.

Not true at all. Since you keep referring to F1, watch Lewis Hamilton drive. One of the fastest drivers in F1, and he's constantly sliding the car and driving at its limit. He finished his first season tied with his double world champion teammate by driving this way, so no, it doesn't lead to a car sliding off the track.
Isn't it funny that he is also largely criticized for his aggressive driving being borderline dangerous as well? There is a clear difference between driving at the limits and beyond the limits.
I'm not sure why you keep referring to F1 since out of over 1000 cars in GT5, only 2 are F1 cars. Yes, modern day F1 cars are engineered to last exactly how long the rules state they have to, and not a second longer. A few years ago when those rules didn't exist, they were engineered to last the length of one race. Over engineering slows the cars down. This is why Newey's cars, the most successful car designer in F1 are known to be some of the most fragile.
You don't like me referencing F1, so how about Indy Car? I can do this all day. I don't care how yesterday race cars were engineered; let’s talk about today’s cars and today’s regulations. You know, because if you were to enter a series today you would be held to today’s rules and regulations.

Since you are so adamant now about road cars, road cars are not at all engineered to be raced or constantly pushed to the limit. Instead, they are designed for normal driving.

Faults, yeah they happen; what was the point here exactly? Formula 1 cars themselves are overengineered, thus prone to faults; as is every mechanical invention known to man. GT5, "the super sim", does not include mechanical faults. Therefore, why are you even talking about them?

Again with the F1. Yes TC is hard to legislate in racing series where standardized ECU's aren't used, but it's NOT used as commonly as you think it is, and it works nowhere near as well as it does in the game. The TC used in series where TC is not allowed is done through software hacks. It's quite different from the TC in road cars.

Excuse me for referencing a world sport since most of their rules are widely known.
Standardized ECU's are not used in all racing competitions.
Are you having trouble staying on Road Cars vs Race Cars? You seem to have an issue with me even bringing up race cars by saying most of GT's cars are road cars. Well then, road cars have TC and there is no ban against them. Road car racing is actually where TC is most commonly used because of the high number of amateurs.
No, that means that brake bias is an adjustable parameter and not locked like most of the internal parameters of every car. Almost all serious sims need some tweaks in the default setups and in that regards the tweaks needed in GT5 are minimal to obtain a proper RL handling(tyres, aids and brake bias specially if you play with no ABS).

The only "fault" of PD here is giving a default value for all cars and letting the player to select the most realistic bias in every car, but again ABS off is suposed an option for advanced users that know the basics of a car.

Pad user right?...


You can rock at the game playing with a pad, aids and racing tyres and you can rock at the game playing with a wheel, clutch, without aids and comfort tyres(similar to the GT Academy rules).

In the finals of the GT Academy there was people driving sports cars very fast with no previous track experience. I doubt those people performed the same training with a pad in Mario Kart.
Seriously dude, that is an excuse? Just admit it is a fault already; I know it’s hard to swallow that the "Ultimate Driving Simulator" isn't so ultimate...

Fault #1 - most stock cars do not come with an adjustable brake balance controller installed. Want to know what it's like to drive the real car; tough 🤬 because GT5 already ruined it before you even have a chance to by giving it an upgraded brake system as stock.

Fault #2 - most stock cars do not come with a 50/50 brake bias by default

Fault #3 - brake balance information is readily available and would have been insanely easy to implement correctly

Pad user at my house and wheel user at friends. I've done both plenty enough and yes cars are easier to drive with a wheel, but it does not change the fundamentals of the game or its faults.

As for your comments on GT Academy; you do understand that those people were probably good drivers to begin with, right? You can be a good driver without track experience. It also works the other way around and you can be a horrible driver with track experience. Example, my bother-in-law is the worst driver I have ever seen and he has track experience.
 
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Seriously dude, that is an excuse? Just admit it is a fault already; I know it’s hard to swallow that the "Ultimate Driving Simulator" isn't so ultimate...

As for your comments on GT Academy; you do understand that those people were probably good drivers to begin with, right? You can be a good driver without track experience. It also works the other way around and you can be a horrible driver with track experience. Example, my bother-in-law is the worst driver I have ever seen and he has track experience.
I already admitted that is a fault, but a very minor and easily fixable(if you want). Now you pretend to make this new to you aspect of the game a new bashing argument instead of trying the solution and post your new impressions.

If you was talking about legal driving in the roads and no track driving I agree, GT5 is not a driving school and does not make a better driver.
 
I already admitted that is a fault, but a very minor and easily fixable(if you want). Now you pretend to make this new to you aspect of the game a new bashing argument instead of trying the solution and post your new impressions.

If you was talking about legal driving in the roads and no track driving I agree, GT5 is not a driving school and does not make a better driver.

Saying the word fault in parenthesis is not admitting the fault, but sidestepping it; quoting a word implies sarcasm and everyone knows that.

The brake balance controller being installed by default is also not new to me, neither are the tuning options. I'd just like to hear a good reason as to why I should have to make adjustments off the bat to each and every car in order to make the "Ultimate Driving Simulator" simulate they way they drive; that is an oxymoron.

Furthermore, a brake balance control is a form of an assist; not necessarily 100% for the driver, but for the car as well.

I should probably clarify myself on the better driver comment.
My bother-in-law is pretty decent when he hits the track on the weekends. He however, can't drive in GT5 to save his life even with the wheel. As for his road driving, he hasn't hit anyone yet, but I'd call it borderline reckless.

What I was trying to point out is that certain people are naturally more gifted at certain things than others. You can't deny that some musicians, artists, singers, athletes, writers, dancers, etc. have this thing called natural talent. What makes a race car driver any different; auto racing is a sport, no?
Those without natural talent only gained talent through real life practice.
How did I learn how to play the guitar, by picking one up.
How did I learn how to play soccer, by attending practice.
How did I learn how to drive a car, by driving one.
 
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Tire wear is important regardless of race length. Road car racers also normally can't afford a new set of tires each and every race so therefore, yes they must without a doubt be concious of tire wear.


Isn't it funny that he is also largely criticized for his aggressive driving being borderline dangerous as well? There is a clear difference between driving at the limits and beyond the limits.

You don't like me referencing F1, so how about Indy Car? I can do this all day. I don't care how yesterday race cars were engineered; let’s talk about today’s cars and today’s regulations. You know, because if you were to enter a series today you would be held to today’s rules and regulations.

Since you are so adamant now about road cars, road cars are not at all engineered to be raced or constantly pushed to the limit. Instead, they are designed for normal driving.


Faults, yeah they happen; what was the point here exactly? Formula 1 cars themselves are overengineered, thus prone to faults; as is every mechanical invention known to man. GT5, "the super sim", does not include mechanical faults. Therefore, why are you even talking about them?



Excuse me for referencing a world sport since most of their rules are widely known.
Standardized ECU's are not used in all racing competitions.
Are you having trouble staying on Road Cars vs Race Cars? You seem to have an issue with me even bringing up race cars by saying most of GT's cars are road cars. Well then, road cars have TC and there is no ban against them. Road car racing is actually where TC is most commonly used because of the high number of amateurs.

I don't want to waste much more time arguing as we will never agree and I have better things to do.

Bottom line is I like to drive without assists, as it provides the greatest challenge and allows me to have more complete control of the car.

I race online in GT5 every night against extremely fast drivers and its VERY rare where I'm beaten by a driver who uses assists. If you want to race against me with assists on, thats fine, but I'll probably beat you.

:)
 
I don't want to waste much more time arguing as we will never agree and I have better things to do.

Bottom line is I like to drive without assists, as it provides the greatest challenge and allows me to have more complete control of the car.

I race online in GT5 every night against extremely fast drivers and its VERY rare where I'm beaten by a driver who uses assists. If you want to race against me with assists on, thats fine, but I'll probably beat you.

:)

That just means you are better at GT5 than me and I fully accept this response 👍
 
Turning off all assists has to do more with the driver ability than what the car "in real life" has as options.

I run an online league and insist that no aids are on. I feel it requires you to drive more realistically. But that is my league and my opinion. I guessing that we won't be seeing you in on of our events. :)

When playing single player, I TRY to no use any aids... but occasionally I cave adding abs and tcm.
 
Turning off all assists has to do more with the driver ability than what the car "in real life" has as options.

I run an online league and insist that no aids are on. I feel it requires you to drive more realistically. But that is my league and my opinion. I guessing that we won't be seeing you in on of our events. :)

When playing single player, I TRY to no use any aids... but occasionally I cave adding abs and tcm.




Driving a Peugeot 908 or an Audi R1 without TC is not "more realistic"
 
I'd really like to hear how a brake lockup is a good thing unless you want to force a slide. Yes it happens in real life, but you normally see it right before an accident (or interruption to normal flow) or because of a malfunction. Regardless, a slide can be force with aids as well.
If the tires are spinning, you are losing forward momentum. As for rotate, the only plus of no aids is that you can effectively force some over steer.
Also, if driving manual you can use the clutch to keep revs up. If you are racing automatic, you might as well be using aids anyways.

A car that needs manhandled is not a good handling car and should probably not be raced. I'm not sure what your experiences are, but modern cars do not need to be manhandled that much. Even old cars don't exactly need manhandled because as I stated, I have no issues in my real C3 Stingray.

It is not making you a better driver. It is making you a better video game driver. I know people who can rock GT5, but are horrid drivers in real life. GT5 is not a proper enough sim in order to. All you are learning is the track layouts of a few real world circuits and a bunch of fantasy tracks.

I am not talking about a full lockup with smoking pouring out, but a small lockup with a slight chipping sound in the tire at the end of the braking stage, just as you rotate the car at turn in. As you have said it the ability to force oversteer is the main gain, when the car's natural tendency isn't perfect ( and trust me even most race car isn't, even a WTCC touring car and a lesser Formula 1 can have inherent balancing issues that has to be driven around) that extra control is what separates a quick lap and a perfect lap. You can still rotate it with aids if you have really sophisticated electronic differential like in WRC some years ago, you can even programme it so it works better than human control, but that is real life and not GT5, from my experience in GT5 the aids kills that aspect of dynamic control a whole lot.

As for "A car that needs manhandled is not a good handling car and should probably not be raced." the is just the reality, while the term manhandling isn't as ham-fisted as it suggest, it just mean situation where the car itself cannot perform perfectly and has to be compensated by extra driver input and correction.

A Stock car isn't perfect in handling, A V8 supercar isn't, in fact maybe only the best formula racers can achieve "perfect handling" in not very often intervals.

Let's take your stingray for example, I am sure when you drive it near the limit you won't be driving it like a formula racer, you will have to cancel the understeer with some extra steering input, in order to exploit the front slip angle, and you will also use extra throttle to help bring the rear around, while in the process performing some neutral countersteer (countersteer not in the opposite direction, but just reduced lock), any of those action are active driver correction made because the car does not handle perfectly. Now just look at any ring lap time attach video, you are bound to see corrections here and there, active or passive. If the qualities of those drivers does not satisfy you, look at F1 onboard videos of mid 80's, look at those qualifying laps and you will how driving over the limit is almost mandatory when the car isn't perfect.

I think I am in a special position when it comes to the effect of sim-racing. I raced kart competitively since 8, and uptil 12 on a national level, so my sensory and motor function where trained on real "cars". However I lacked the fund to race professionally so I have been sim-racing since. When I was karting I was mostly driving by instincts and feel, it is only when I was older that I understand the finer points of driving and it very often it comes from my experience in sim-racing, finer points such as load control, economical use of tires, endurance vs sprint driving and so on. Now I am older, having a profession and can do the odd weekend racing series I find myself a more matured driver, not necessarily faster over one lap (lack of real life seat time and repair bill does make you more conservative) but in a real race, I am much more efficient and result orientated, making less strategic and driving mistakes, I also learn tracks much faster than most people, so I think the sim experience does indeed make me a better driver.

I am also certain that if you throw two person of equal talent an no real experience in a real car, one without any sim experience, and one with some years behind a virtual wheel, the one with virtual experience will learn a whole lot faster.
 
For the Le Mans style prototypes or the F1 cars, I usually set the TC to 5. Or if I leave TC off I will put Skid Recovery on. No big deal. I'm not going to make the game "not fun" just to say that I never use TC or Skid Recovery. And, I don't really care what the "elitists" think, because I am confident that I can beat them in a sportscar (non-RM) race with all of the aids off.
 
Driving a Peugeot 908 or an Audi R1 without TC is not "more realistic"
Even if these race cars have these aids they are put in for safety reasons which does take away from the driver own ability to out race other drivers. The same with Nascar restrictor plates. They are used to slow the cars down for safety so they can't reach over 200mph at Daytona and Talladega. These restrictor plates again take away driver ability to out race other drivers which cause all the cars to bunch together. Some argues this itself put the drivers in danger of "The Big One".
This same thing was mention in another thread about GT5 tracks, IRL they would be too dangerous yet these tracks are fun in sims . This is one advantage sims has over real life. The same when racing without any aids on. Other racing titles like RacePro at the highest difficulty knocks out all aids not necessary to make it more realistic (like the real races) but to make the game more challenging.
 
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The same with Nascar restrictor plates. They are used to slow the cars down for safety so they can't reach over 200mph at Daytona and Talladega. These restrictor plates again take away driver ability to out race other drivers which cause all the cars to bunch together. Some argues this itself put the drivers in danger of "The Big One".

Hold on, what? The use of restrictor plates on ovals such as Talladega and Daytona make driving skill much more evident. All the cars are traveling at about the exact same speed and the only way to pull ahead is by drafting and perfect cornering, meaning the only way to out race the other driver is through teamwork and driver skill.


Large post that does not need quoted
Wonderful response 👍
 
Hold on, what? The use of restrictor plates on ovals such as Talladega and Daytona make driving skill much more evident. All the cars are traveling at about the exact same speed and the only way to pull ahead is by drafting and perfect cornering, meaning the only way to out race the other driver is through teamwork and driver skill.
Teamwork yes , driving skill no, which is why Dale Earnhardt has trouble winning at Daytona. The fact all the cars are pack in like can of sardines is because it's harder to out drive the other drivers. This is why even in Nascar games including NR2003 these tracks were the most boring of all tracks.
 
Am I the only one who thinks this thread is a bit of a troll? And what's the point of cussing in the middle of all that. The OP just seems like an angry troll.
 
It really depends on which car im using....since i leave 90% of my cars bone stock the cars true characterisc show... Driving the Mclaren F1 without any aids is damn near impossible to drive fast in an online race (even with racing softs) so i put tcs to 4 and put Skid recovery ON......compared to my LP670-4 SV, i leave abs at 1 and turn EVERYTHING off and pretty much destroy any car that is close in performance i.e enzos, zondas etc...
 
Am I the only one who has a good laugh at all the folks around here who constantly want to remind you how they never use any assists?

being easily amused myself, i too, find this kinda funny

ABS 1 ALL OTHERS OFF :sly:
 
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I guess I haven't come across too many people being that rude about it. Some people like to point out that they race with no aids, and they have every right to be proud of it as it takes a different skill set and a lot of practice. Some people also like to point out that they are better than every body else because they like to point out that they are better than everybody else. It's basic human behavior.

Personally I race with no aids. Not because it's more or less realistic, not because it inflates my ego, but because I find it more FUN as well as challenging. It's quite possible to do, whether using a wheel or a controller, but gives you a good workout on either. What other people choose to do is up to them and has nothing to do with whether they are worthwhile people or racers or not. That said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't take at least a little extra pride from beating those who use them, and a little less pain from losing to them.

It's not as if there's much in the way of realism going on in the game anyway, whether aids are on or not. As many have said, the aids in game are generic and not mimicking the real life behavior. The views are all in some way wacky. All of the cars sound really weird, although I haven't run the game through a 10,000 dollar sound system, but even TV comes closer. I seriously doubt very many of the cars actually match their real performance exactly. So whether or not a car has ABS or TC or similar in real life isn't going to make or break the realism.


TL,DR: Drive what you want, it's all about what makes it fun. People brag and tease others. GT5 is just a video game.


Also: The statement I've seen here frequently, generalized as "I drive with no assists and ABS 1," is an oxymoron. That actually does sound like someone trying to invent a way to brag. Kind of like "I've never lost a race... that I didn't quit out of because I was losing."
 

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