No assists, a joke?

  • Thread starter Thread starter deftonesmx17
  • 295 comments
  • 26,265 views
deftonesmx17
ASM does not exist in real life and is a GT term.

ESC is more or less and for a lack of better explanation a combination of ABS and TCS in which the car detects driver input error and corrects it via automated braking to individual wheels and steering aassitance to avoid spins. So basically, ASM. I do not believe race cars have actual ESC systems, but some do use a form of TCS and ABS.
Click to expand...

It bloody does...ESP, ESC, ASM...all the same thing! Brakes for you if the systems thinks you're going too fast in the corner.
 
My car in real life has ABS and TCS. Every time I get in my starting procedure goes as follows:

Clutch in
Shifter neutral
Start engine
Clutch out
Fasten seatbelt
Hit the TCS off button
Disengage parking brake

And off I go. In the game, I always have all assists off except ABS since most cars in real life have ABS, and those that don't have brake pedal feedback to keep you from locking the brakes. I think the only car I used TCS on was the FGT, and that was because I didn't feel like losing the series for a momentary lapse of concentration.
 
Fast cars need aids

Slow cars don't require them

If you think you can drive fast cars without aids means you belittling the community and may you try driving endurance races without it lol
 
Destinkeys
I think I'll bring up Top Gear, as many seem to like that show.

You generally see Clarkson hooning around, talking about the TCS and ASC, and how they help him stay in control (even though he'll occasionally criticize them for being overly intrusive), then he'll turn off everything he can and just go spinning around almost every corner...

But when the Stig gets in the car for the fastest lap, he turns off EVERYTHING that can be turned off. If you are a 'tame racing driver', those aids just get in the way. But if you are a normal human being, they often make you faster.

I don't think the game is any different. The very best drivers get hindered by assists, and the worse need them at all times. Most of the rest of us are somewhere in between.

But MY goal is to get a feel for what a REAL race driver has to cope with, in a nice cheap consequence-less environment. So, I don't enable anything at all except for ABS-1. No, I'm CERTAINLY not faster this way. But at least I'm getting an idea what those amazing pro drivers have to cope with. My hat's off to them all...
Click to expand...



I feel the same 👍 👍
 
Parnelli Bone
...

ABS is the main exception to this. ABS is installed on most modern cars (and was a silent feature in previous Gran Turismos) and usually it does a better job at stopping a car in GT5 more safely without sliding or lockup, etc.
....
Click to expand...
Unless ABS are different today I'm sure ABS increase your braking distance IRL (maybe as well in GT5 ). There was a debate a few years ago if insurance should stop giving discounts on cars with ABS since they have shown not to reduce collisions. People brake straighter but required more distance to stop when ABS are activated.
 
Last edited:
Yeah if anything ABS needs to be turned up if your hung up on realism. My car doesn't lock up the brakes under ABS so why are the cars on GT5 still able to go into a skid on ABS 1?

For the record ABS allows you to stop in a shorter distance then is humanely possible without ( in the real world ). Why? because ABS can adjust braking force to individual wheels to suit the amount of grip present to them. When you drive without ABS all wheels get the same ( proportional ) braking force which means some wheels will reach there limits of adhesion while the others are still working correctly. Makes no difference how awesome a driver you think you are, unless you have a brake pedal for each wheel you will not outbrake a ABS fitted car.

Perhaps some of the first ABS systems out there increased braking distance slightly but I can assure you this is not the case these days.

Unless ABS are different today I'm sure ABS increase your braking distance IRL (maybe as well in GT5 ). There was a debate a few years ago if insurance should stop giving discounts on cars with ABS since they have shown not to reduce collisions. People brake straighter but required more distance to stop when ABS are activated.
Last edited by Zoom!Zoom!; Today
Click to expand...

I think you will find the argument was people were complaining that they would crash, then blame the ABS for increasing braking distance which was thrown back in their face with the argument "you would have been in an uncontrollable skid otherwise and would have had no control otherwise." "ABS allows you to still have steering input so that you can steer around and avoid the collision." I mean if you can steer but you just plough straight into whatever its your own fault. Not the fault of the car.
 
Last edited:
deftonesmx17
I know I will be hung from a tree for this, but I feel it needs to be brought up.

Am I the only one who has a good laugh at all the folks around here who constantly want to remind you how they never use any assists? I'm being serious, do they even know what realism is?

I for one use assists based on which car I am driving.
Am I driving a full blown race car or am I driving a stock production vehicle.

Surely if I go down to my local Lamborghini dealership and ask to drive the Murcielago and how to turn off the assists I will be laughed at. Therefore, you better believe I turn on TCS, ASM, and ABS when driving it in GT5.
Why you may ask? Because the real 🤬 car has a full blown state-of-the-art Electronic Stability Control system.

Furthermore, do those same people understand that some race cars do indeed have a form of traction control and/or other assists?
Traction control was only banned in Formula 1 at the start of the 2008 season. That says something right there. Therefore, guess what? When I drive the F2007, yes I turn on TCS.
Click to expand...

I do not think GT5 simulates real non ABS

in real life the race cars in LMP1 / 2 division use driving aids like active steering , TC , ASM , ABS
not so sure about ABS because ive seen DTM cars lock wheels quite a lot in races im not sure about the ABS part but for sure I knew Le Mans cars do use all sorts of mechanical driving aids

its impossible to go the fastest on endurance races in real life without the aids you wouldnt even last on an endurance race nor would you be quicker overall , they do use it so its normal

ABS in fomula have been banned since 1990 although because there is soft tyres and downforce they still brake quite good they only usually lock on low speed braking or when your high speed then you brake then it tends to lock when speed lowers but in Formula 1 in 2009 season traction control was banned because it was too easy although the F2007 itself was easy already without traction control , the new F1 cars of 2009-10/+ will be more driver made rather than aerodynamically or even mechanically aided driving

still if an LMP1 car was to have no aids at all it would be as hard as a Ferrari F10 to go around corners for long times
 
Last edited:
Depend what you are into. For drifting all you want on is abs 1. Everything else, when on, totally screws up a drift. No aids combined with comfort hards on a powerful car is not easy at first but rewarding when mastered
 
Zoom!Zoom!
Unless ABS are different today I'm sure ABS increase your braking distance IRL (maybe as well in GT5 ). There was a debate a few years ago if insurance should stop giving discounts on cars with ABS since they have shown not to reduce collisions. People brake straighter but required more distance to stop when ABS are activated.
Click to expand...

Most people makes a shorter brake distance with ABS. anyway I think you can't compare GT5 with real life. In real life, sometimes, you have to brake in a panic situation, for your life. Most people can't avoid blocking brakes in panic.
Have you ever driven in a spanish road? XD
 
deftonesmx17
I know I will be hung from a tree for this, but I feel it needs to be brought up.

Am I the only one who has a good laugh at all the folks around here who constantly want to remind you how they never use any assists? I'm being serious, do they even know what realism is?

I for one use assists based on which car I am driving.
Am I driving a full blown race car or am I driving a stock production vehicle.

Surely if I go down to my local Lamborghini dealership and ask to drive the Murcielago and how to turn off the assists I will be laughed at. Therefore, you better believe I turn on TCS, ASM, and ABS when driving it in GT5.
Why you may ask? Because the real 🤬 car has a full blown state-of-the-art Electronic Stability Control system.
Furthermore, do those same people understand that some race cars do indeed have a form of traction control and/or other assists?
Traction control was only banned in Formula 1 at the start of the 2008 season. That says something right there. Therefore, guess what? When I drive the F2007, yes I turn on TCS.
Click to expand...


really. ask Jeremy Clakeson when they do there tests on the latest Lambo he will tell you how much fun it is with it off and by the way alot techno assist in cars these days can actually ruin the car gear changes TC etc as per Top gear.
 
Last edited:
Ghost Rydor
Yeah if anything ABS needs to be turned up if your hung up on realism. My car doesn't lock up the brakes under ABS so why are the cars on GT5 still able to go into a skid on ABS 1?

For the record ABS allows you to stop in a shorter distance then is humanely possible without ( in the real world ). Why?
Click to expand...
I just looked it up. http://www.aaafoundation.org/resources/index.cfm?button=abs#stop
Contrary to popular belief, ABS does not appreciably shorten stopping distances.
...
Under most conditions, a vehicle with a good anti-lock brake system can stop in a slightly shorter distance than an average driver could accomplish in the same vehicle without ABS; however, that is not the main purpose of ABS, and the difference is generally not great enough to notice or be of any real use.
ABS can actually lengthen stopping distances on some surfaces, such as loose snow, dirt, or gravel, because of effects that occur during locked-wheel skidding that are unique to those surfaces.
Click to expand...
 
Zoom!Zoom!
I just looked it up. http://www.aaafoundation.org/resources/index.cfm?button=abs#stop
Click to expand...

Yeah that pretty much confirms what I'm saying. The examples we are talking about are tarmac with a average grip. What country is that site based out of? Is it even up to date?

As a slice of personal experience I know that the first ABS units Honda used were operated by a 8 bit proccessor and were upgraded in the 90's? to 16 bit. Which means the faster the control module can proccess data the quicker and more effective the braking will be. God only know what speed they are using for the very latest generation.

Bottom line is computer controled braking over individual wheels is going to be superior to someone who has no control over how much force each wheel gets. If not then your ABS is dated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system
 
Ghost Rydor
Yeah that pretty much confirms what I'm saying. The examples we are talking about are tarmac with a average grip. What country is that site based out of? Is it even up to date?

As a slice of personal experience I know that the first ABS units Honda used were operated by a 8 bit proccessor and were upgraded in the 90's? to 16 bit. Which means the faster the control module can proccess data the quicker and more effective the braking will be. God only know what speed they are using for the very latest generation.

Bottom line is computer controled braking over individual wheels is going to be superior to someone who has no control over how much force each wheel gets. If not then your ABS is dated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system
Click to expand...
While I don't fully trust Wiki still even that article noted that people mistaken thinking ABS gives them superior control end up taking more risk which end up in a wreck.
 
Zoom!Zoom!
While I don't fully trust Wiki still even that article noted that people mistaken thinking ABS gives them superior control end up taking more risk which end up in a wreck.
Click to expand...

Well that maybe, but its besides the point.


Just to reiterate what I said earlier as well, I have raced my car at the track and it has ABS. There was no skidding. GT5 ABS by comparison is too weak at level 1 to be a accurate representation. You can brake heavily and easily send your car into a skid. So all you "realists" out there harping on about how your only assist is ABS 1, you might want to turn it up. That is if your truly interested in realism and not just using it as a pedestal to boost your self esteem.

I wouldn't mind betting that half the "no assists crowd" probably drive cars that drive themselves. Then wrongly give themselves a pat on the back for being such top drivers. Pretty easy thing to guess at since most the online players I come across are all about using the cheapest cars they can already.
I remember this jag off once kept telling me to turn off T/C. He was spamming a 4wd R8 all night whilst I was in unorthodox mid engined cars. Yeah nice try buddy, he probably had a steering wheel as well.
 
Don´t really care. Everyone drives how the feel more comfortable with.

I use only ABS on cars that I know they have ABS. Other than that, I used TCS once in the Nurburgring with rain when using the Peugeot HDi FAP, since I used to grind in that race, and winning on rain, even though its easy, it is stressing as hell (specially because I like cockpit cam).

To be honest, I think there is a little controversy with all this assist thing. Its true that most cars use assits, but it is true that these assits slow you down in GT5. Although it depend on what assist. For me, the only assist that really helps, is ABS.

I don´t know... For me, using assists is cheating, but at the same time, I use ABS in most modern street cars. Should I be using TCS and ASM also? Maybe yes, although I won´t. Maybe I´m contradicting myself...

Lets leave it like this: ABS in cars with ABS. Everything else off. ABS off and everything else in race cars and oldies.
 
lol I've been saying this to everyone the whole time. Almost every car now has ABS so why the hell would you drive without it? Its a good assist to have and irl its a ton more safe on the track. I've been getting tired of people saying "I run without ABS huhuhuhuhuhuhu." Ok and so? TC is w/e. I don't use it, but its someones choice. The gas on the controller is a bit harder then having a steering wheel.
 
MadBullBunny
lol I've been saying this to everyone the whole time. Almost every car now has ABS so why the hell would you drive without it? Its a good assist to have and irl its a ton more safe on the track. I've been getting tired of people saying "I run without ABS huhuhuhuhuhuhu." Ok and so? TC is w/e. I don't use it, but its someones choice. The gas on the controller is a bit harder then having a steering wheel.
Click to expand...

the ability to slighty lock up the brake can help turn in, it's faster, hence I run without ABS.

This is a racing game, unless you only exclusively run cars in factory condition, I don't see why one should run a car with "realistic" aids, the ABS is something you can easily overide with a new chip or even just disconnecting some sensors.

It's not about realism for me, it's about having full control.
 
Ghost Rydor
Well that maybe, but its besides the point.


Just to reiterate what I said earlier as well, I have raced my car at the track and it has ABS. There was no skidding. GT5 ABS by comparison is too weak at level 1 to be a accurate representation. You can brake heavily and easily send your car into a skid. So all you "realists" out there harping on about how your only assist is ABS 1, you might want to turn it up. That is if your truly interested in realism and not just using it as a pedestal to boost your self esteem.

I wouldn't mind betting that half the "no assists crowd" probably drive cars that drive themselves. Then wrongly give themselves a pat on the back for being such top drivers. Pretty easy thing to guess at since most the online players I come across are all about using the cheapest cars they can already.
I remember this jag off once kept telling me to turn off T/C. He was spamming a 4wd R8 all night whilst I was in unorthodox mid engined cars. Yeah nice try buddy, he probably had a steering wheel as well.
Click to expand...

Depends on your ABS system. Some allow a little wheel-lock before kicking in (allows you to hook up the brakes faster) or the brakes are strong enough for momentary lock.

Or the brake bias is tuned properly for the car, allowing a bit of rotation under braking... which many ABS systems don't... or they cause the car to rotate too much... I've had rear ends step out on me because the ABS sensors in the rear were not properly calibrated, leading to trail-braking oversteer in undesirable situations.

ABS systems are not identical. The problem is that GT doesn't only fudge up that part (though no game accurately represents the behavioural differences of various ABS systems...), it also mucks up brake balance on many cars, as well.

So... more realistic? Not really. But ABS on in GT5 is not quite realistic, either. And without data on proper brake bias, it's up to the user to figure out what is.

Dont' get me started on ASM and TCS... neither of which can accurately represent the wide range of stability/traction systems out there (and I've played with them... trying to tweak them to where they feel and react similarly to real-life systems)... or SRF... which is nothing but an arcade physics tweak disguised as an "assist".

At least GT4 gave us a means of tweaking ASM, and I've gotten some Mercs to "feel" similar to how they drive in real life with it on, but GT5 doesn't.
 
I assume this doesn't apply to SRF, ie. "God Mode", since it really doesn't seem to have any basis in reality, just as a tool to help beginners post comparable times to more veteran players.

All the rooms I've hosted have had TCS and ASM disabled. This is because most times, we're running fairly low-powered street cars on street rubber. We leave ABS on because as most people have pointed out, it's almost universal in real life these days (though the TVR's are an exception in modern times ;)). If it's an open track style event where we're all just bringing whatever we feel like, I might allow TCS just because for those who want to run insanely high-powered cars, it's better for it to be controllable than potentially ruin other peoples' runs.

I'll agree with the sentiment that it's up to everybody how they want to play their game, it always has been; but the people I run online races with all prefer aids off, so we stick to that.
 
Conflabbit...if I'm going to be playing such a fine game by means of a stick adorned with colorful buttons, then you better bet your finest Bosnian steer that I'll be playing with that little flashy exclamation point in the corner of my screen.

When we're done with the aid supremacists, can we rag on the hoity-toity $600 wheel owners? Please?

"Uhhhhhhh....me mum got me a new TRS64900 wheel and it costs $9000 but I don't like it cuz it doesn't feel like real alligator skin so I'm going to chuck all my toys out of the pram."
 
I personally state the aids i'we not been using when talking about the performance of cars for example. This is so that everyone can realistically compare their experiences with mine. I might feel just a little bit pride too though. :p

For me the reason for not using driving aids in GT5 is the fun factor. Driving SLS AMG with sports hard tires and using only ABS at 1 on Nordschleife is one of the most fun things to do in this game. Also driving the TVRs without any aids is really exiting (including the mental Speed 12). The cars just feel so much more alive. :)
 
In all my cars I drive with everything off :) adds more fun to the game also it's another better pp system ... I don't use it and my little bro has most of it on. Good fun
 
Offline I usually run abs 1 and tcs 1-3, depending on the car

Online, I can do tcs 0 if the room requires it

As has been mentioned a few times, go with what you want 👍
 
The only aids i always use is the abs. But i am a complete failure at driving anything Le Mans Prototype at very high speeds like this as they just spin their wheels all the time.
But i dont put the traction control on them because, and this might make no sense, i feel it makes them harder to control...?
I think it is how the TCS has been implemented thats my problem with it, that it (sort of) acts at the throttle, limiting what you put in there with the red box.
Ive also never quite got the effect an on/off asm is meant to give after the three way setup of gt4, where it occasionally saw some use.
Does anyone feel the same?
 
I mentioned it, myself... not having the three-way, ten-level control you had in GT4 sucks big time.

Yeah, yeah... such fine control is kind of unrealistic on a stock car, but there is an aftermarket controller that does similar, Whiteline's Black Box:

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Adjustable-Stability-Control/A_111046/article.html

http://www.globalperformanceparts.c...s/whiteline-black-box-handling-bias-modifier/

I haven't thought about it again, till now. It's been years since I first read about it.

Would be nice to have this level of control... as with Brake Bias and ABS settings, it would help us to more accurately model a road car's behavior.
 
You want to know the real reason why sports cars come with driver aids?

Lawyers.

A lot of people that can afford fast cars don't know how to drive them and the aids help them keep their cars on the road. I'd be pretty pissed if I wrapped my new Ferrari around a pole. Of course it wouldn't be my fault, so who do I blame? Ferrari. It's their fault for making a dangerous car and they should be forced to pay me a ton of money.
 
in some countries the cars have to have BY LAW abs/tcs etc.


i drive with no TCS, abs usually off or at 1. its more of a challenge. and i like to go sideways.
 
I'd like to address something that is being largely overlooked here.

The "aids slow you/me down" argument.

If the aids are slowing you down that means you are making mistakes. If you were driving correctly, the aids would not be engaging. The reason why TCS-1 for example is slowing you down is because you are applying too much throttle and it has detected wheel spin. This also means that when not using aids, those same people are probably eating through tires at double the rate of others. If you are doing that, you're making mistakes pure and simple.
I own a car with Electronic Stability Control. The only time I see the ESC or ABS light flash is when I have made a mistake and the system made a response (or due to winter conditions). If I am not driving beyond the cars capabilities the systems have no reason to act upon anything.

I have no issue with those seeking a challenge. That is the only valid reason if you ask me. Even the "it makes me a better driver" logic is grasping at loose-ends. A video game is not going to make you a better real life driver as you can't feel the car like you can in real life. Therefore, real world experience is the only thing that will make you a better driver. GT5 is also not a real simulation, but merely what we like to call a simulation in the video game world.

Before anyone brings up GT Academy; it does not prove that GT made them a better driver. GT Academy merely gives those who are great at the game a chance to prove themselves on a real race track.
 
Last edited:
@ Deftonesmx17
Tire wear doesn't come in play in almost all races except endurance races. Also you want to put your tire around 105% to get the most speed around corners. I read some people online were using hand brakes to go around corners faster.
If you are good enough to keep aids from coming on then it would still be better to leave them off for when you want to push your tires to the max in the corners. (for example in order to make a pass)
 
Last edited:

Latest Posts

Back