No Restrictions = No Challenge = No fun?

[Meoricin]

something else to consider is that not all of us have the will or the means to spend an absurd amount of money on wheels, pedals, special seats, etc.

with a DS3 and my average or less driving skills I simply am incapable of competing with you people with really hardcore setups who spend hours a day grinding every track and memorizing every corner.

does that mean I don't deserve to earn money, win challenges, and collect cars? Why should I have to spend hundreds of dollars ontop of the price of the game and thousands of hours of my life to complete a $50 video game?

You don't have to. Spend an equal amount of time and effort to someone who happens to have a wheel, and you will be able to beat everything in the game except getting gold in the Vettel challenges. You don't deserve to get the same out of a game as someone who puts far more effort in - what kind of logic is that? Effort should be rewarded, if you obtain all of the same rewards for no effort, then there's no reward for those who can be bothered.

Why do so many people playing games believe that all content should be available to everyone without effort? It completely defeats the purpose of a game, which is to offer a challenge.

 

[ludokid]

I don't know. If your not pro at a game like me the first ones were very frustrating with me spending my one hour of gt5 every couple days or so repeatedly pressing the restart button. I only managed 3rd in the fiat one and wasted money on a mini cooper for a challenge that I could not beat. The Lotus Elise challenge was arguably my favorite race I've done. So by saying that because there are no restrictions the races aren't fun doesnt make sense.

it's optional to do, if you master it, the reward is great!
it's not sth you HAVE to do, but sure, why not make 7 events, and make 2 of them with no restrictions, and lousy money and exp. but for the love of god, bring back restrictions..

 

[shinbone]

You don't have to. Spend an equal amount of time and effort to someone who happens to have a wheel, and you will be able to beat everything in the game except getting gold in the Vettel challenges. You don't deserve to get the same out of a game as someone who puts far more effort in - what kind of logic is that? Effort should be rewarded, if you obtain all of the same rewards for no effort, then there's no reward for those who can be bothered.

Why do so many people playing games believe that all content should be available to everyone without effort? It completely defeats the purpose of a game, which is to offer a challenge.

The purpose of gaming is to have fun. People don't play video games to get stressed out and chuck their console out the window.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

The purpose of gaming is to have fun. People don't play video games to get stressed out and chuck their console out the window.

Actually as is quite clear from a lot of peoples posts in this, and the dozen other treads on the same subject we do. The Lotus Top Gear challenge. I hate that challenge. They've butchered the car handling, made avoiding the other cars while avoiding cones and being fast insanely tricky and frustrating to the point of wanting to punch a hole in the TV. But when you do it, and it can be done with a pad, that buzz of sticking two fingers up at a challenge and satisfaction from besting something is what a lot of people get off on.

And this is what the first batch of challenges gave us. In fact they already were easy because the collision penalty system was off, but that's easy enough to practice some self control on.

There are some games I agree with you guys on. I played COD on easy because I just wanted to unwind and shoot some bad guys. I didn't want to be stuck replaying the same sections, I wanted to be Bruce Frickin Willis blasting bad guys like in a bad action movie where I can't lose. The game had harder settings for the real die hards, but I'm not one.

GT though, that's my game, I love real world motoring and this game gives me what I don't have in the real world, so I do have the patience and desire for the brutally uncompromised challenge. But there are just so few places to find it because they were so busy getting the way light bounces off an alcantara steering wheel they didn't have enough time to include a game with their graphics and physics engine. The initial Seasonal events were a promising sign that this would be delivered but now they've thought better of it.

 

[sjwk]

In related news, I predict that the next update addresses the frustrations that many people have with multiplayer where there's always someone who spoils it by being better. The further ahead you get, the more it slows you down so that everyone crosses the finish line together. "Hooray, everyone's a winner. Aren't you special?". Followed by rainbows and pictures of kittens.

Seriously though, like many others, I and the half dozen friends with GT5 did actually enjoy the challenge of the restrictions. For one thing, it encouraged me to start to learn how to tune the cars so they handled better and could take the corners faster. With no restrictions, it becomes easy to just bolt a bigger turbo on and not work to improve.

Sure, I can impose restrictions on myself but I have no way of knowing whether the race has been structured so that the stock car is remotely competitive whereas I assumed that where there were restrictions, the AI cars were picked to be fairly close. Naive I know!

 

[Devedander]

The purpose of gaming is to have fun. People don't play video games to get stressed out and chuck their console out the window.

This whole argument of "why is what you guys want more important than what we want" is just ridiculous.

Imagine this:

You go to dinner and find out that while you were expecting turkey, there is no turkey and instead there is now greenbeans.

Some people say "But I like turkey and not green beans, why isn't there any turkey like there has been every other night?"

And others say "Hey us vegitarians can now enjoy the dinner too! Why are you turkey lovers more important than us?"

And anyone with any sense can sit back and see this isn't a mutually exclusive situation... the answer isn't only one of you can be happy but rather why aren't both of you happy? Why isn't there turkey AND greenbeans?

That's the problem is everyone is all caught up in "you aren't more important than me!" instead of looking at the real issue and that is that giving YOU what you want doesn't in any way necessitate taking away what I want... it's just a coincidence they happened at the same time and instead of hating on each other for it the obvious best solution is to just try and get what both people like at the same time and make everyone happy.

So instead of meat eaters arguing with vegetarians about turkey vs greenbeans, how about we all try to get the cook to make Turkey AND greenbeans?

See what I am saying?

I am hungry now.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

This whole argument of "why is what you guys want more important than what we want" is just ridiculous.

Imagine this:

You go to dinner and find out that while you were expecting turkey, there is no turkey and instead there is now greenbeans.

Some people say "But I like turkey and not green beans, why isn't there any turkey like there has been every other night?"

And others say "Hey us vegitarians can now enjoy the dinner too! Why are you turkey lovers more important than us?"

And anyone with any sense can sit back and see this isn't a mutually exclusive situation... the answer isn't only one of you can be happy but rather why aren't both of you happy? Why isn't there turkey AND greenbeans?

That's the problem is everyone is all caught up in "you aren't more important than me!" instead of looking at the real issue and that is that giving YOU what you want doesn't in any way necessitate taking away what I want... it's just a coincidence they happened at the same time and instead of hating on each other for it the obvious best solution is to just try and get what both people like at the same time and make everyone happy.

So instead of meat eaters arguing with vegetarians about turkey vs greenbeans, how about we all try to get the cook to make Turkey AND greenbeans?

See what I am saying?

I am hungry now.

The cook already was making greenbeans, and tofu with A-Spec and B-Spec.
We had our chipolatas with the Special Events and finally the turkey was served with the Seasonal ones. Then on the sly they changed it over to quorn when no one was looking and all the vegetarians are telling us it tastes just like meat

 

[Devedander]

The cook already was making greenbeans, and tofu with A-Spec and B-Spec.
We had our chipolatas with the Special Events and finally the turkey was served with the Seasonal ones. Then on the sly they changed it over to quorn when no one was looking and all the vegetarians are telling us it tastes just like meat

Exactly... I left out entirely the fact that the vegetarians already had plenty to enjoy before the turkey even showed up

 

[deviln3]

The whole Aspec section is filled with Restrictions..

If you don't want it to be an easy win, don't use super soft slick tires for your car, its that simple. Don't over upgrade your car.. you are to blame for the race being super easy.

I think this way its fine, cause it makes it accessible for all the people that want to enjoy the game, and the rest of you elitists can just choose not to over upgrade it.

I just race the event, and if I'm too far behind the lead car, I upgrade a little bit more and its fun for me. I don't want to get stuck on a single race and just struggle struggle to make this game a chore to play. At the moment its really fun and I'll keep playing

 

[-=DV=-]

What happened to the days that games were about skill, And if YOU werent skilled enough to do something, Tough, Either strive to imrpove and practice. Or do something else. This whole "accesibility" thing that has got games catering to the lowest common deminator is really turning them into a bore. Those asking what it matters if I can do it without modding my car, and you need to mod your car? These things are challenges, the idea of a challenge is that it is a benchmark of skill. Its like if 2 people ran 100 meters and compared their times....but one person decided 50cm=1 meter and another decided 120cm=1 meter...It makes both claims and both results tottaly irrelevent of each other. Challenges ARENT MEANT TO BE FUN. They are a test of your skill. They are meant to be CHALLENGING, and incredibly rewarding mentally if you pass it. They are meant to force you to improve, learn and become better. That is the reward.

The moment GT went online, It became a competative racing game. To be competative all must be on the same playing field. Wether it be online racing, Time trailling, Or completing challenges that will award you with credits to build your racing cars. These things flat out need restrictions. If your not good enough to Gold....then try harder, watch some people race, read some racing guides, spend more time on the track. Whatever it takes. If person X is able to do it with certain restrictions. Then with enough practice person Y,Z and W will be able to aswell.
What ever happened to taking on a challenge to improve yourself? Now everybody just wants to max tune a car, turn aids on and zombie their way through a game without so much as challenging themselves the slightest or improving at all!

I guess this is one of the reasons I personally just cant get into video games the same way I used to. There is very little replayability if everything can be seen/completed/unlocked by a monkey that is suffering from concussion.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

The whole Aspec section is filled with Restrictions..

If you don't want it to be an easy win, don't use super soft slick tires for your car, its that simple. Don't over upgrade your car.. you are to blame for the race being super easy.

I think this way its fine, cause it makes it accessible for all the people that want to enjoy the game, and the rest of you elitists can just choose not to over upgrade it.

I just race the event, and if I'm too far behind the lead car, I upgrade a little bit more and its fun for me. I don't want to get stuck on a single race and just struggle struggle to make this game a chore to play. At the moment its really fun and I'll keep playing

Ok I'm going to inverse that argument as an exercise. I already know it's a flawed argument but bear with me:

The whole Aspec section is filled with easy winnable races you can just over power the AI on..

If you don't want it to be an challenge, use SRF and play bumper cars, its that simple. Don't drive too slow.. you are to blame for not being good enough to win the race.

I think the old way was fine, cause it makes it a game worth playing, and the rest of you casual gamers who can't best it, bronze and silver are still an achievement.

I just race the event, and if I'm too far behind the lead car, I look over my lap times and see if they are consistent. I don't want to get stuck on a single race over and over trying to find the difficulty sweet spot to make this game a chore to play. At the moment its now just an exercise in strolling round a track without any real challenge with a fat pointless pay out of make believe money and experience points rather than a real feeling of accomplishment of having tested my metal and beat something

 

[deviln3]

Ok I'm going to inverse that argument as an exercise. I already know it's a flawed argument but bear with me:

The whole Aspec section is filled with easy winnable races you can just over power the AI on..

If you don't want it to be an challenge, use SRF and play bumper cars, its that simple. Don't drive too slow.. you are to blame for not being good enough to win the race.

I think the old way was fine, cause it makes it a game worth playing, and the rest of you casual gamers who can't best it, bronze and silver are still an achievement.

I just race the event, and if I'm too far behind the lead car, I look over my lap times and see if they are consistent. I don't want to get stuck on a single race over and over trying to find the difficulty sweet spot to make this game a chore to play. At the moment its now just an exercise in strolling round a track without any real challenge with a fat pointless pay out of make believe money and experience points rather than a real feeling of accomplishment of having tested my metal and beat something

I agree you can over power your car in the Aspec mode, but that's always been the case in GT series.

Just to be clear I play with all assists off, I use a DFGT wheel and I sometimes turn ABS to 1. To be honest though, I'm a silver level racer, I don't have all Gold in challenges.

As for being pissed off at the game being accessible to all the people, considering that the games these days need to sell millions of copies you should be thanking all the casual fans for buying a copy and supporting the future GT6 game. If it wasn't for the game being accessible and fun for everyone who plays it, the game would sell like a pc game and be developed to a similar level.

 

[Devedander]

I agree you can over power your car in the Aspec mode, but that's always been the case in GT series.

Just to be clear I play with all assists off, I use a DFGT wheel and I sometimes turn ABS to 1. To be honest though, I'm a silver level racer, I don't have all Gold in challenges.

As for being pissed off at the game being accessible to all the people, considering that the games these days need to sell millions of copies you should be thanking all the casual fans for buying a copy and supporting the future GT6 game. If it wasn't for the game being accessible and fun for everyone who plays it, the game would sell like a pc game and be developed to a similar level.

I don't think either of us are pissed off that it's more accessible to all people... I am happy to make it as accessible as possible... I say unlock all cars in arcade mode right off the bat!

But what I AM unhappy about is that the part that WAS fun for me has now been removed.

Again it's not an us vs them sort of thing... it can be more accessible AND still challenging for me. Don't mistake the two for being the same thing...

There is a difference between being unhappy it's accessible for everyone and being unhappy a feature that made it challenging for me is now gone.

Keep it accesible for all, just give me the part I liked back... you said it yourself... make it fun for everyone who plays, that includes people like me!

 

[klondike]

I think is stupid that they removed the restrictions.

Before it was fun and challinging to see if I could win the races, now its just another boredom.

And belive me I am not one of these super elitist drivers who can just gold everything with ease. But I like the challenge and the satisfaction I get when i finally do it even I had to try more times than I could count.

I shouldent have to spend more time, trying to figure out wich car can win the race without being overpowered, that I spend actually driving the races.

But I gues this is just what the games industry is becoming now. There is far between really good games that gives a challenge, because average Joe he just wants something he can complete first time he try'es else he will get upset and bored with it.

 

[Meoricin]

What they really need, for the whole game, is a difficulty level selector. 'Casual' difficulty, where there are no restrictions, you can use driving aids, whatever. Maybe they give you a free car every day or something.

Then they have 'Professional' or something, where driving aids are restricted, there are heavy race restrictions, and as a distinguishing feature you get something next to your name online to show which mode you play in.

That way people could choose whether they wanted a challenging game, or a movie where they push buttons. Those who wanted to actually play a game wouldn't have to spend all their time trying to work out what reasonable restrictions are, and could have fun completeing a proper challenge.

 

[limesutam]

Restrictions or not, I'm glad they just keep bringing out more events.

I enjoy racing cars that I never would have if it weren't for these events.

Regarding the restrictions in A-spec mode:

For me, on the tracks I like, I leave the racing as tight as possible, but on tracks I hate, I just tune the crap out of my car for finishing sake.

Personally I like the fact that I control the difficulty. I have no trouble losing and coming back again with a fresh tune to see how I've improved.

But I know a lot of my friends just will not ever lose to a P.C if they have anything to say about it.

 

[buziii]

I'm getting a headache from reading the long posts in this thread! Why do I keep coming back here and reading it? I have free will to restrict myself...don't I?

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

What the game really needs is a option at the beginning of the game to take all the money out of it. Everything would be free to those who just want to drive the damn cars. Those who want to protect the integrity of their single player AI racing experience can skip it and continue on grinding away at Indy looking down their noses at others.

 

[Zelvik]

The one annoying thing is that you have no idea for what kind of tuning level those challenges were designed for. IMHO thats especially true for the tyre type that is used. A race that would be challenging using sports hard could be hardly at all challenging when using sports medium. At least give those who want to be challenged this basic information in the challenge description.

The problem with the setup we have now is, that we have no whatsoever clue of the basic design of the challenge before not having driven it at least several times. At least I dont like trying a challenge several times before figuring out what config it was designed for to present a challenge. Do one motor tuning one tyre level too much and it becomes too easy, dont do one you are supposed to and they are not beatable.

 

[darqpassenger]

If you want a challenge, impose some restrictions on yourself.

I am now with a I-MIev trying to beat the Indy 500 on A-spec. So much fun there!

 

[eSZee]

So instead of meat eaters arguing with vegetarians about turkey vs greenbeans, how about we all try to get the cook to make Turkey AND greenbeans?

See what I am saying?

I am hungry now.

Simple, bring your own turkey. Why can some people impose restrictions on themselves and be happy but for some reason you can't? I know you've gone over this but to me it makes no sense why restrictions put in place by PD are different than those you put in yourself, just cause you couldn't get around them? Do you have control issues?
WHat if with new updates, PD wrote restrictions in the description but didn't enforce them, just so that you have a guide on how you might proceed.
That is the only way that has potential to work for everyone. There's nothing stopping those who aren't great drivers and there's nothing stopping you from using restriction suggestions, well, maybe egos.

The one annoying thing is that you have no idea for what kind of tuning level those challenges were designed for.

You kind of do. Just slap on the next better tire and you should be set. Actually, most if not all challenges can be done with a stock, unmodified car.

 

[JasonMann]

Totally agreed. To each his own. And all these people in here claiming how easy these challenges are and that they passed the leader on the first lap and won by 1000 seconds and did it all stock on hard tires.....right.

Even with some careful tuning, a lot of these challenges are pretty tough.

The Ford GT in Trial Mountain comes to mind. This is a real challenge. No way anyone is passing the leader by the finish if you keep the GT stock. No way. I'm not a great driver in GT5 by any means, but even after learning the track and getting the hang of the car, there isn't any way that I'm going to overtake a 580-hp supercar with a ~25 second lead in 5 laps in my 530-hp Ford GT. I don't know, maybe it's possible, but it seems like a longshot.

It seems, at least for this race, that tuning is not just an option, but necessary to win.

Well, i did that race with racing mediums and an oil change. passed the leader on lap 4, wasnt that hard. GT5 A.I. are easy, the only way to control how hard they are is the type of car their using.

 

[Devedander]

Simple, bring your own turkey. Why can some people impose restrictions on themselves and be happy but for some reason you can't? I know you've gone over this but to me it makes no sense why restrictions put in place by PD are different than those you put in yourself, just cause you couldn't get around them? Do you have control issues?
WHat if with new updates, PD wrote restrictions in the description but didn't enforce them, just so that you have a guide on how you might proceed.
That is the only way that has potential to work for everyone. There's nothing stopping those who aren't great drivers and there's nothing stopping you from using restriction suggestions, well, maybe egos..

Actually I have said many times that would be great! I personoally would like to see it paired with a bonus for meeting the restrictions or something but really my concern is that I want to be given a challenge that is very hard but possible without having to do the grind of figuring out where that limit lies myself.

Again, it's one thing to say "just limit yourself" but it's not at all the same thing... there is a large area between restrictions given and don't just overpower the crap out of your car.

Look at the immaculate challenge... arriving at those suggestions took a group of people many hours each over many days... that's what your suggestion amounts to, grind and work at FINDING the restrcition - that's not at all the same as enjoying racing the resctiction.

And it's been pointed out many times - how do you know it's appropriate to upgrade a part and not just a case of you haven't practiced enough?

Try your example out, you take a stock car to a race, you finish 20 seconds off first. 20 tries later you are 10 seconds off first. 50 tries later you are 9 seconds off first.

Now answer me this: Is it time to upgrdade my car becuase the race is not possible in my current configuration or do I just need to practice more and any upgrade is indeed overpowering my car?

Before you rush and say "clearly you need to upgrade" I probably put 4 dozen tries into the Focus challenge and never got closer than 5 seconds to first... its entirely doable, I just didn't get good enough yet.

That's the problem with your suggestion, it's not at all a replacement for being given restrictions (optional or not), it's an entirely different thing all together. It's solid advice to not overpower your car, but it's not the same as being given a proven and tested challenge in the least bit and that's the problem with everyone suggesting it as if it is.

Well, i did that race with racing mediums and an oil change. passed the leader on lap 4, wasnt that hard. GT5 A.I. are easy, the only way to control how hard they are is the type of car their using.

Try that with sports hard... it's an entirely different story.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

I'm still surprised so many people who obviously have little competitive desire for a challenge have been willing to strongly debate this issue Like GT says: 'Take it to the track'.

Maybe we should impose a voluntary limitation that if you can't argue in rhyming form you shouldn't debate the issue to make it more challenging on ourselves?

 

[Cainius]

it's the internet, always safer to talk the anonymous talk than walk a virtual walk

 

[eSZee]

I'm still surprised so many people who obviously have little competitive desire for a challenge have been willing to strongly debate this issue Like GT says: 'Take it to the track'.

Maybe we should impose a voluntary limitation that if you can't argue in rhyming form you shouldn't debate the issue to make it more challenging on ourselves?

Racing stock cars in the events is not a challenge? Doing the GTI Nurb event with a stock or barely modified GTI Mk1 is not a challenge?

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Racing stock cars in the events is not a challenge? Doing the GTI Nurb event with a stock or barely modified GTI Mk1 is not a challenge?

Can all the events be won with a car in stock form?

 

[eSZee]

Can all the events be won with a car in stock form?

There might be one that can't but otherwise yes, restrictions would obviously not change that as they allowed you to change everything and only limited weight, tires, and power.

 

[Devedander]

There might be one that can't but otherwise yes, restrictions would obviously not change that as they allowed you to change everything and only limited weight, tires, and power.

Wait, are you talking seasonal or all A spec too?

Either way, I find it highly suspect that you can win most events with a totally stock car. Have you actually done this? Have you golded most of the events sans oil change, no upgrade parts and on stock tires?

 

[Merquise]

There might be one that can't but otherwise yes, restrictions would obviously not change that as they allowed you to change everything and only limited weight, tires, and power.

Ahem sorry but thats not true...
From the latest batch of SE's, the Miev is rather easy on stock, the SuperGT is easy on stock but the other 3 are really hard if not impossible.

I drive with skid recovery off, and I;m allergic to front wheel drive cars, and that Volvo race is virtually impossible to me with stock cars.
Also the Dodge race with a stock car? I dont think anyone has done that yet...
And the VW Golf in a stock car..... I seriously doubt it's doable.