Non-linear throttle

[John G]

And this helps us how?

Still we have no fix for GTS!!

Because it's never gonna happen on GTS so that's the only way you'll get a linear throttle.

If you're desperate I guess a progressive spring in your throttle pedal would help, increases the required force more where it gets more sensitive

 

[oneloadedbanana]

Geez, I just noticed this is issue after all this time. And once you discover it, it wrecks the game. Hopefully GT7 isn't plagued with this issue; Well, that and the infamous pit glitch.

 

[kilesa4568]

And once you discover it, it wrecks the game.

Really? It's that bad?

 

[Greycap]

Really? It's that bad?

No. Nowhere near. It becomes an issue at the moment you begin thinking about nothing else, which seems to be oddly common.

See from post #493 onwards on the previous page. Three different people used quite a bit of time and effort to see what it's all about and the results are freely viewable.

Another interesting thing is a quote from Ken Miles, the man who did most of the development driving for the Ford GT40 and Shelby Daytona Coupe. He specifically wanted a non-linear throttle.

Throttle linkage is very important. It must achieve two things: it must be smooth, and progressive—slow at first opening, getting faster.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a29798198/ford-gt40-mk-ii-le-mans-analysis/

 

[AfraidRacer]

No. Nowhere near. It becomes an issue at the moment you begin thinking about nothing else, which seems to be oddly common.

See from post #493 onwards on the previous page. Three different people used quite a bit of time and effort to see what it's all about and the results are freely viewable.

Another interesting thing is a quote from Ken Miles, the man who did most of the development driving for the Ford GT40 and Shelby Daytona Coupe. He specifically wanted a non-linear throttle.


https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a29798198/ford-gt40-mk-ii-le-mans-analysis/

I'm not going to contribute anything to the discussion but I appreciate how you quoted Ken Miles as if he was a GTP member.

 

[kilesa4568]

No. Nowhere near. It becomes an issue at the moment you begin thinking about nothing else, which seems to be oddly common.

See from post #493 onwards on the previous page. Three different people used quite a bit of time and effort to see what it's all about and the results are freely viewable.

Another interesting thing is a quote from Ken Miles, the man who did most of the development driving for the Ford GT40 and Shelby Daytona Coupe. He specifically wanted a non-linear throttle.


https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a29798198/ford-gt40-mk-ii-le-mans-analysis/

I've been following since the thread started and post 493 was the first reply that made any sense to me. The rest of the analysis went way over my head.

 

[Wake2skate]

I just recently noticed this ridiculous non linear throttle after modding my G29 break pedal with a stiffer rubber, I also swapped the clutch and throttle springs. Clutch is stiffer spring, helps rolling into it easier, but I was looking at the throttle telemetry and noticed it. Why is this not being changed? Like most things Sony related support is pretty non existent, even though this is a PD issue. But how do we all express our want for change in a way that gets someone’s attention. The game is for us and not for them in my opinion, start listening PD

 

[Greycap]

I took a stock BMW M4 to SSRX. A great car for such a test as the power curve is flat on a wide area, the rpm won't affect the power and all tests were done in the 6th gear which is where the car attains its maximum speed. I tested with the throttle bar at 50%, 75% and 100%.

50% throttle: 278 km/h
75% throttle: 308 km/h
100% throttle: 318 km/h

Let me tell you people one thing... I tried it in GT6, with the same M4, on SSRX. With a DS3.

The first thing I noticed was, surprise surprise, the very non-linear throttle. It took 5 or 6 mm of the measured 9 mm (doing my best with a ruler) of stick travel to get to 50% throttle bar. 100% was reached well before the physical stop.

And the speeds...

50% throttle bar: 243 km/h
75% throttle bar: 301 km/h
100% throttle bar: 330 km/h

As the point that doubling the speed takes eight times the power still stands, it means that between 50% and 75% there's a monstrous 90% increase in engine power, and between 75% and 100% another 32%. Between 50% and 100% throttle bar the power increases by a total of 150%, and that takes a movement of a quarter, at best a third, of the full travel of the stick.

The baffling thing is that everyone seems to be OK with the throttle in GT6 but GT Sport is a huge problem while, if anything, GT6 is by far the worse offender.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Let me tell you people one thing... I tried it in GT6, with the same M4, on SSRX. With a DS3.

The first thing I noticed was, surprise surprise, the very non-linear throttle. It took 5 or 6 mm of the measured 9 mm (doing my best with a ruler) of stick travel to get to 50% throttle bar. 100% was reached well before the physical stop.

And the speeds...

50% throttle bar: 243 km/h
75% throttle bar: 301 km/h
100% throttle bar: 330 km/h

As the point that doubling the speed takes eight times the power still stands, it means that between 50% and 75% there's a monstrous 90% increase in engine power, and between 75% and 100% another 32%. Between 50% and 100% throttle bar the power increases by a total of 150%, and that takes a movement of a quarter, at best a third, of the full travel of the stick.

The baffling thing is that everyone seems to be OK with the throttle in GT6 but GT Sport is a huge problem while, if anything, GT6 is by far the worse offender.

What's even more crazy is, throttle in real life is not linear either, but in an opposite way to GT (i.e. you get more torque increase early on, then it levels off - so it's more of a "n" curve than the "u" curve in GT if that makes sense). Both Niels (the main physics dev for Automobilista) and Aris (Assetto Corsa) mentioned this in their streams. This is part of the reason why pulling off from a deadstop in GT is always difficult to do without any wheelspin. In real life you can feed a little throttle and the car would move, but in GT you need quite a lot of throttle and by that point you're past what the tyres can handle.

What a mess.

 

[Groundfish]

This thread is sort of funny, imo.
It seems the sim community wants throttle input % to equal engine power output % in a linear fashion for all cars.
The assumption here is that this is how things ‘should be’.
Imo there’s an awful lot more to look at than such a simplified viewpoint.
Number one though, regardless of what’s true or not any driver ought to be able to acclimate to a cars power delivery in relation to throttle position with practice. Imo if you cannot control how much throttle you employ than any discussion of how things ‘should be’ is moot anyways.
That point aside, I think there’s an awful lot more complexity to this issue than a simple edict that throttle input percent should equal engine output power percent in a 1-1 relationship across all vehicles in a sim. Certainly this would not be anything close to an accurate representation of reality.
Simply look here at these power curves from in game...

Now then, clearly these curves are different. I would assume these curves represent wide open throttle and the power produced from low rpm to maximum rpm.
So essentially like if you had the engine on a dyno at rear wheels, because it says power output of the vehicle, so at the rear wheels...
So ask yourself this, why would anyone expect from power delivery curves so different that all these cars out to be the same? Imo irl they won’t be.
In game they drive very differently.

I think what’s being alluded to above re throttle curves in the previous posts is the flow curve of a butterfly valve like you would find in a throttle body of some cars.
A typical flow curve for a butterfly valve is here...

Guess what THAT matches what was just mentioned above, BUT, that represents a FIXED pressure operation.
If the application were in an engine with varying intake conditions even THAT would vary as well in terms of measured flow...
So the assumption being made in this thread is basically that in game throttle response shouldn’t relate to internal combustion engines AT ALL.
The assumption is that it would be more like an electric motor run by a very advanced variable frequency drive that would electronically tune the power curves of both torque and HP to be a single line at a perfect 45 degree angle starting at zero and going to maximum RPM.
That simply has no relationship to reality whatsoever guys.
The in game curves don’t look like that so in game doesn’t either.
Further there’s a lot of variation between cars with a throttle body, or like a two stroke carb on the kart which is maybe a slide, and factor in the needle jet vs coming on the main jet vs the pipe and you are never never never going to have a 1-1 throttle opening to power there.
That’s probably the most simple internal combustion engine in game!
It’s characteristics are not linear.
So drivability wise modern cars many have direct injection, turbos,
and there’s fly by wire, so there’s so much variation and complexity in the real world.
Imo it’s a ridiculous oversimplification to assume all throttles of all vehicles should have perfect 1-1 relationship to power output.
It’s PREPOSTEROUS to oversimplify like that, IMO

 

[fastone371]

Just to explain it as simply as possible I think the problem in the game is that there is too big of a power gain between 1/2 and full throttle. In real life there is very little difference between 3/4 and full throttle and only moderate differences between 1/2 and full throttle opening. Most of the airflow increase happens between idle and 1/2 throttle opening in real life. It makes sense because generally speaking it takes high speed velocity to produce good torque and acceleration where as wide open throttle increases airflow but reduces velocity which is what you are looking for to maintain high speed/high RPM's

 

[Groundfish]

between 1/2 and full throttle. In real life there is very little difference between 3/4 and full throttle and only moderate differences between 1/2 and full throttle opening

Again that is oversimplified and in reality it’s application dependent due to a myriad of factors being ignored as I explained above.

ost of the airflow increase happens between idle and 1/2 throttle opening in real life

I showed the butterfly valve flow curve above and that’s what your saying here.
Remember though that’s at the VALVE ITSELF.
Often in cable operated throttle there’s a cam profile in there also.
There’s simply way way way too many variables to make sweeping statements like this.
But I put up the curve for the valve itself which is what you are alluding too and is true.
It’s not the full story though.
I’m not going to get into a pissing contest.
There’s way way way too many variables.
I’ve said before I prefer more resolution in throttle at under 50 percent because in game that’s the most critical area.
Once the diffs locked power down baby!

Edit look at the flow curve for the butterfly valve I put up above. Look how much flow rises very very fast at partial opening. In terms of percent open to flow increase there’s a large flow increase without the valve moving much at all.
In control terms HIGH GAIN. In vehicle terms if your throttle were just like that you get BIG INCREASE in power at very little throttle on exit.
Hi spin out.

I just had to post. I’m not going to continue because from the thread it’s obvious most posts are making incorrect assumptions and applying those across the board.
PREPOSTEROUS

 

[kilesa4568]

Torque curves vary between cars but the throttle curve in GTS doesn't so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

In control terms HIGH GAIN. In vehicle terms if your throttle were just like that you get BIG INCREASE in power at very little throttle on exit.
Hi spin out.

Other than standing starts, it's not that big a problem as we're usually carrying speed and picking up the throttle again when it's higher in the range. Spinning out under it is just an operator error.

To me, the throttle is unnecessarily aggressive but knowing that it's the same for every car makes it that much easier to adapt to. In fact I'd call the throttle curve a quirk rather than a bug or problem that needs 'fixing'.

 

[meekrab]

Just to explain it as simply as possible I think the problem in the game is that there is too big of a power gain between 1/2 and full throttle. In real life there is very little difference between 3/4 and full throttle and only moderate differences between 1/2 and full throttle opening. Most of the airflow increase happens between idle and 1/2 throttle opening in real life. It makes sense because generally speaking it takes high speed velocity to produce good torque and acceleration where as wide open throttle increases airflow but reduces velocity which is what you are looking for to maintain high speed/high RPM's

I know exactly what you're talking about, and car manufacturers do that to make their commuter cars seem stronger than they are, to make the test drive more impressive.

Cars that actually have significant horsepower often have a lazy initial throttle response because they'd simply be unsafe if they had the snappy kind of throttle response you're describing. I drove a 400 horsepower GTO for a few years and it was night and day different, the initial bit of throttle travel would barely move the car, and then from 1/2 throttle to 3/4 was a huge jump, very similar to how GTS acts.

 

[fastone371]

Again that is oversimplified and in reality it’s application dependent due to a myriad of factors being ignored as I explained above.



I showed the butterfly valve flow curve above and that’s what your saying here.
Remember though that’s at the VALVE ITSELF.
Often in cable operated throttle there’s a cam profile in there also.
There’s simply way way way too many variables to make sweeping statements like this.
But I put up the curve for the valve itself which is what you are alluding too and is true.
It’s not the full story though.
I’m not going to get into a pissing contest.
There’s way way way too many variables.
I’ve said before I prefer more resolution in throttle at under 50 percent because in game that’s the most critical area.
Once the diffs locked power down baby!

Edit look at the flow curve for the butterfly valve I put up above. Look how much flow rises very very fast at partial opening. In terms of percent open to flow increase there’s a large flow increase without the valve moving much at all.
In control terms HIGH GAIN. In vehicle terms if your throttle were just like that you get BIG INCREASE in power at very little throttle on exit.
Hi spin out.

I just had to post. I’m not going to continue because from the thread it’s obvious most posts are making incorrect assumptions and applying those across the board.
PREPOSTEROUS

I find that throttle control is far too c

Again that is oversimplified and in reality it’s application dependent due to a myriad of factors being ignored as I explained above.



I showed the butterfly valve flow curve above and that’s what your saying here.
Remember though that’s at the VALVE ITSELF.
Often in cable operated throttle there’s a cam profile in there also.
There’s simply way way way too many variables to make sweeping statements like this.
But I put up the curve for the valve itself which is what you are alluding too and is true.
It’s not the full story though.
I’m not going to get into a pissing contest.
There’s way way way too many variables.
I’ve said before I prefer more resolution in throttle at under 50 percent because in game that’s the most critical area.
Once the diffs locked power down baby!

Edit look at the flow curve for the butterfly valve I put up above. Look how much flow rises very very fast at partial opening. In terms of percent open to flow increase there’s a large flow increase without the valve moving much at all.
In control terms HIGH GAIN. In vehicle terms if your throttle were just like that you get BIG INCREASE in power at very little throttle on exit.
Hi spin out.

I just had to post. I’m not going to continue because from the thread it’s obvious most posts are making incorrect assumptions and applying those across the board.
PREPOSTEROUS

Throttle opening from 3/4 to full throttle on virtually all gas engines there are only subtle power output differences in real life, even from half opening to full throttle you will see only marginal gains, this is at the air valve but it is pretty true at the accelerator pedal too. What I see in GTS is that fine throttle control from 50% to full throttle on the graph is very hard to modulate consistently and GTS puts has far too much power output in this range.

 

[GTSportster]

I'm using the thrustmaster t3pa pedals and I'm at full throttle at around 70%. Does anyone else have this issue?

Yes. Well, maybe not 70% of the time but it's either full throttle of 30% throttle. It's very difficult to get anything between that. I thought maybe better sensors would help, but I guess not after reading this thread.

 

[VBR]

Deleted...

 

[fisheye]

Wreckfest has a throttle sensitivity setting for the DS4 R2 button but GT Sport doesn't? That makes no sense. When you want 50% throttle you get too little or too much... every time.

 

[KosmoKazi]

I do find the GTS throttle input map to be really weird and it does prohibit me from being better.

With no g-forces to relate the acceleration force to where my foot thinks it is, and an unnatural throttle map, it is really hard to modulate the throttle especially in the top 25% where the margins are, once you get to 75 K' speed score or more...

Combined with some strange modeling dynamics where throttle and brakes overlap, or at the tail ends of the throttle input (1), and the kind of excessively long Logitech G29 throttle pedal travel, I do wish it was different or customizable.

(1) The dynamic of how the car behaves in-turn, at 10% or low throttle input, compared to 0% throttle input, is flat out wrong. It applies way too much engine braking torque at low throttle, and prevents the car from turning/rotating. In reality, a car that is better balanced with a bit of trailing throttle should turn better than a car that is coasting completely and has shifted more weight to the front tires.... the model is simply wrong in GTS and this is really annoying when you know it, and this is exaggerated by the weird throttle mapping.

...and strangely enough, the game DOES reward the same dynamic while braking... if you are careful to ease up on the braking to even out the weight distribution while entering a turn, you can turn in easier. Why the game behaves differently comparing this braking dynamic to the coasting/throttle off dynamic, I'll not understand, but I'll say it's outright wrong and it's an area I struggle with. Made worse by the throttle mapping quirks.

 

[Groundfish]

I know in real life off throttle behavior under the limit, cars seem to turn better than in game.
This is the limit of tires capability we seek in the game, and pro racers in real life apply this idea.

Applying 10percent throttle on entry will shove you wide, compared to ‘driving the limit’

I agree though in real life, driving under limit, a little tiny throttle stabilizes the car nicely vs coasting.

RE THROTTLE in a game like rfactor2 coming from GTS I end up a little heavy on throttle at times on exit risking me pushing wide.
The mapping in that game can be changed but default it’s a bit more sensitive towards min throttle and a touch less so towards max.

These games all love trail braking almost everywhere, you don’t want to use throttle entering turns in these games, you want to set the cars speed and balance to get max apex speed without compromising the ability to get on power ASAP.

Gts with a more sensitive mapping at partial throttle would only make things more difficult since 90 percent of time once you get to half throttle you can go full shortly thereafter.

I think overall most cars in a coast in GTS in most cases tend to push more than is intuitive, but you really don’t wanna be coasting 95-99 percent of the time you’re losing time doing it in game. (Excepting ff)

I will say also potentiometer brakes suck imo for anyone who has ever driven a real car.
You can make them work but they aren’t intuitive and aren’t consistent and only make sim racing more difficult.

Ultimately, what are you doing trying to use throttle entering a turn? You’re not at limit that way in these games.

I think overall driving in a sim game requires certain adaptations but fundamentally all standard concepts apply. I think finding the limits is very difficult in either case, given that various drivers have varying abilities to set the cars balance. Depending on balance it’s easy to be at limit but that limit may be artificially low compared to what’s possible in a better balanced car.
Look at the aliens. Or the best pros in real life.
They are faster because they raise the cars limits from our artificial ones to the actual limits, or close.
Everybody is trying to drive the limits but it’s just not easy. Many times aliens have their best vested by Uber aliens like Fraga.

Imo the throttle mapping has little to do with why people have trouble getting faster and more consistent.
A lot has to do with things like using a bigger tv having a better pedal set with a good brake, having more time to practice, using good sound settings ensuring tire squeal is heard, having more time to practice...having good fundamental understanding of what one is trying to do also.
Not being too proud to use in game aids...having more time to practice...
It’s not throttle mapping lol. I could do great in gts with only two throttle positions 50 percent and 100 percent. Brakes are more important imo.
You watch Fraga, he almost without fail goes straight to 50 percent to stabilize the car then full.

 

[fisheye]

I know in real life off throttle behavior under the limit, cars seem to turn better than in game.
This is the limit of tires capability we seek in the game, and pro racers in real life apply this idea.
View attachment 1007573

Applying 10percent throttle on entry will shove you wide, compared to ‘driving the limit’

I agree though in real life, driving under limit, a little tiny throttle stabilizes the car nicely vs coasting.

RE THROTTLE in a game like rfactor2 coming from GTS I end up a little heavy on throttle at times on exit risking me pushing wide.
The mapping in that game can be changed but default it’s a bit more sensitive towards min throttle and a touch less so towards max.

These games all love trail braking almost everywhere, you don’t want to use throttle entering turns in these games, you want to set the cars speed and balance to get max apex speed without compromising the ability to get on power ASAP.

Gts with a more sensitive mapping at partial throttle would only make things more difficult since 90 percent of time once you get to half throttle you can go full shortly thereafter.

I think overall most cars in a coast in GTS in most cases tend to push more than is intuitive, but you really don’t wanna be coasting 95-99 percent of the time you’re losing time doing it in game. (Excepting ff)

I will say also potentiometer brakes suck imo for anyone who has ever driven a real car.
You can make them work but they aren’t intuitive and aren’t consistent and only make sim racing more difficult.

Ultimately, what are you doing trying to use throttle entering a turn? You’re not at limit that way in these games.

I think overall driving in a sim game requires certain adaptations but fundamentally all standard concepts apply. I think finding the limits is very difficult in either case, given that various drivers have varying abilities to set the cars balance. Depending on balance it’s easy to be at limit but that limit may be artificially low compared to what’s possible in a better balanced car.
Look at the aliens. Or the best pros in real life.
They are faster because they raise the cars limits from our artificial ones to the actual limits, or close.
Everybody is trying to drive the limits but it’s just not easy. Many times aliens have their best vested by Uber aliens like Fraga.

Imo the throttle mapping has little to do with why people have trouble getting faster and more consistent.
A lot has to do with things like using a bigger tv having a better pedal set with a good brake, having more time to practice, using good sound settings ensuring tire squeal is heard, having more time to practice...having good fundamental understanding of what one is trying to do also.
Not being too proud to use in game aids...having more time to practice...
It’s not throttle mapping lol. I could do great in gts with only two throttle positions 50 percent and 100 percent. Brakes are more important imo.
You watch Fraga, he almost without fail goes straight to 50 percent to stabilize the car then full.

When I adjusted the throttle saturation in Wreckfest the throttle control from 0% to 100% was a nice smooth transition on R2. You can't do that in GT... When you want 50% you get 10% or the nitrous bottle boost. I guess this is where wheel/pedal users gain an advantage. You can feel it more when you turn TCS off.

 

[Groundfish]

When I adjusted the throttle saturation in Wreckfest the throttle control from 0% to 100% was a nice smooth transition on R2. You can't do that in GT... When you want 50% you get 10% or the nitrous bottle boost. I guess this is where wheel/pedal users gain an advantage. You can feel it more when you turn TCS off.

Yes long pedal throw vs short r2 travel distance.
For me it’s key to understand the picture I posted before.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Figured I would mention that I added a Ricmoetch throttle spring to my T3PAs. Anyone that hates the mapping should at least try them out. It doesn't fix everything but consistency is better.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Is this a problem with the DS4 controller when using the right joystick as fuel / brake?

 

[fastone371]

When I adjusted the throttle saturation in Wreckfest the throttle control from 0% to 100% was a nice smooth transition on R2. You can't do that in GT... When you want 50% you get 10% or the nitrous bottle boost. I guess this is where wheel/pedal users gain an advantage. You can feel it more when you turn TCS off.

The throttle is just as bad for wheel users, it's extremely difficult to modulate the throttle between 50% and 100% and the last 30%-40% percent of pedal movement does nothing because the car is already at full throttle.

 

[manion]

I don't mind the throttle not being linear but it's near impossible to modulate it above 50-60% I think linear would be better than the on/off switch we have now. I'm sure they can fine tune it a bit from what it is now.

 

[Groundfish]

e last 30%-40% percent of pedal movement does nothing because the car is already at full throttle.

Your credibility becomes shaky when you state untruths like this.
The throttle is not full already at 30-40 percent travel left lol.
The pedal is less sensitive 0-50 then more sensitive 50-100 yes.

 

[Skinny McLean]

I've actually tried GTS with a linear throttle (I have pedals with user-configurable response curves) and I didn't like it at all, it just felt horrible. E.g. when exiting a hairpin turn, I could barely get on the throttle without excessive wheel-spinning, and I'd imagine driving under wet conditions (or with worn tires) to be nigh impossible. So the throttle is probably not why you aren't a world champion yet.

But of course racing games should allow players to adjust dead-zones and response curves as they wish.

 

[Groundfish]

So the throttle is probably not why you aren't a world champion yet

But but but, LINEARITY!
Lol I agree with you wholeheartedly.
There’s a large subset of gamers that will make excuses and try to “blame the game”

 

[fastone371]

Your credibility becomes shaky when you state untruths like this.
The throttle is not full already at 30-40 percent travel left lol.
The pedal is less sensitive 0-50 then more sensitive 50-100 yes.

Really??? So I guess that means you have raced in my rig?? When I watch the graph on screen compared to accelerator position this is accurate.