Political Correctness

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But the bottom line is....you are intelligent.

From your degree
From your job
From your interactions on these forums.

Sure you have weaknesses, as do geniuses, but you would be classed as intelligent.

Thank you for the compliment.

I think that what I'm trying to convey though is that there isn't a single "class" of intelligence, but rather many different types of flavors of intellectual aptitudes that I would consider intelligent. It's not a yes or no question, it's a surface. You might think I'm intelligent, but the reality is that it's only in some areas.

3D-Surface2.png
 
Thank you for the compliment.

I think that what I'm trying to convey though is that there isn't a single "class" of intelligence, but rather many different types of flavors of intellectual aptitudes that I would consider intelligent. It's not a yes or no question, it's a surface. You might think I'm intelligent, but the reality is that it's only in some areas.

3D-Surface2.png
That makes sense to me.
Again using the example of my father he would score very highly in a domain you would name but he probably wouldn't be classed as intelligent.

I think that's where we have to draw boudaries in classifying intelligence
 
That makes sense to me.
Again using the example of my father he would score very highly in a domain you would name but he probably wouldn't be classed as intelligent.

I think that's where we have to draw boudaries in classifying intelligence

I hope you concluded for yourself that "average" intelligence among ethnicities is at the least very difficult to measure. I understand where your statement came from, but the fact that "white" ethnicities perhaps have more succes in academics, technological advancements or in other fields does not accurately reflect it is a trait based on their genetics. The egyptians, Persians, Mongols and the greeks where once considered the most advanced, intelligent people in the world. Where are they now? What happened to their genetical superiority?
 
Welcome to the O&CE forum...
I think this response tickles me so much because of how thoroughly unnecessary such an introduction is. What's more, the statement it was in response to was itself emblematic of the sort of remark that the statement was [seemingly] condemning.
 
That's an easy one, generally at least. Holy Rome.

Exactly. At that time western europeans and scandinavians were considered inferior barbarians. The point was that the statement that average intelligence @HenrySwanson varies among ethnicities genitically is difficult to measure, so shouldnt be stated. At some point an ethnicity has been on the top op of being an advanced civilisation.
 
Exactly. At that time western europeans and scandinavians were considered inferior barbarians. The point was that the statement that average intelligence @HenrySwanson varies among ethnicities genitically is difficult to measure, so shouldnt be stated. At some point an ethnicity has been on the top op of being an advanced civilisation.
So you're saying it isn't stated now because more advanced tests could arise in the future negating/disproving the results?

Isn't that how science works?
 
So you're saying it isn't stated now because more advanced tests could arise in the future negating/disproving the results?

Isn't that how science works?
More like the existing evidence counteracts your conclusions if other ethnicities have been on top before now.
 
That's the thing - I don't have any conclusions. We don't have any conclusions.

But we do, there just is a 'movement' around that's using the old ideas to create the confusion you describe.

There is a conclusion:
1. until you decribe what is intelligence and how to measure it. We can't say that one group is more or less intelligent then others
2. Since multiple civilisations have been on the 'top' of the hierarchy it seems likely intelligence is not based on etnicity.
 
But we do, there just is a 'movement' around that's using the old ideas to create the confusion you describe.

There is a conclusion:
1. until you decribe what is intelligence and how to measure it. We can't say that one group is more or less intelligent then others
2. Since multiple civilisations have been on the 'top' of the hierarchy it seems likely intelligence is not based on etnicity.
Sometimes the Chinese have been on top. This happens when they have "The Mandate of Heaven". Perhaps the intelligence at the top of civilization is not the people themselves, but rather the gods/technologies they follow?
 
Sometimes the Chinese have been on top. This happens when they have "The Mandate of Heaven". Perhaps the intelligence at the top of civilization is not the people themselves, but rather the gods/technologies they follow?

It's an interesting hypothesis.

But it does need quit a few assumptions to be true for it to be accepted.
 
Sometimes the Chinese have been on top. This happens when they have "The Mandate of Heaven".

Most of the Holy Roman Empire observed the Divine Right of Kings (or God Mandate) and were far from achieving a superior understanding of technology, I'm not sure that grace brought them much.

Perhaps the intelligence at the top of civilization is not the people themselves, but rather the gods/technologies they follow?

Only if you subscribe to the Erik von Daniken (sp) school of thought. Which absolutely nobody should.
 
I interpreted your initial statement as stating that there is supiority among "races", but adressing it is "politically incorrect". I was adressing it as just "incorrect".

I posted that we don't know if there are differences between ethnicities.

You're the one making a conclusion that there isn't based on....what exactly?

Edit: I'm assuming you are saying there isn't rather than agreeing with me in saying we don't know
 
I posted that we don't know if there are differences between ethnicities.

You're the one making a conclusion that there isn't based on....what exactly?

Edit: I'm assuming you are saying there isn't rather than agreeing with me in saying we don't know

I am assuming there isnt. It is also almost impossible to measure correctly and to take out the cultural factors and correctly define what intelligence should be measured. An interesting article: https://www.theguardian.com/science...tic-iq-differences-between-races-are-unlikely


I also just dont like the point of view of assuming there is and then trying to prove it is true.
 
I am assuming there isnt. It is also almost impossible to measure correctly and to take out the cultural factors and correctly define what intelligence should be measured. An interesting article: https://www.theguardian.com/science...tic-iq-differences-between-races-are-unlikely


I also just dont like the point of view of assuming there is and then trying to prove it is true.
It just seems a weird assumption considering we have:

- Differences in height
- Differences in muscle mass
- Differences in bone density
- Differences in susceptibility to disease
- Differences in xyz

and then we assume that something that is a product of the most complicated organic matter on earth doesn't vary between populations "just because" seems intellectually lazy.

There is a succinct rebuttal to your article here:

https://medium.com/@jsmp/the-guardian-being-right-about-the-genetics-of-iq-is-unlikely-b9c16f3e4db4

To demonise Watson for pointing out the lack of progress in African civilisation as possible proof of intelligence differences is grossly unfair IMO, and I say that as someone who's half Caribbean.
 
- Differences in height
- Differences in muscle mass
- Differences in bone density

Can be explained by different diet and nutrition.

- Differences in susceptibility to disease

Can be explained by what diseases a particular group is and isn't exposed to naturally.

- Differences in xyz

Talk about being intellectually lazy. If there isn't anything else you can think of, don't artificially lengthen your list with "xyz."
 
Can be explained by different diet and nutrition.
Just on bone density alone:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/82/2/429/2823249

* Granted, if you are talking about diet and nutrition in previous generations accounting for some change down the line then that wasn't tested, but you'd need to be more specific.

huskeR32
Can be explained by what diseases a particular group is and isn't exposed to naturally
So you're saying that the diseases a group is or isn't exposed to influences their susceptibility but selective pressures on intelligence has no effect? Interesting :)

EDIT: I'm also not subscribing to just the "what you're exposed to" theory. Medicine is so broad and complex that there are so many differences in particular conditions and even their outcomes that I would just attribute it to what that population has been exposed to in the past.

huskeR32
Talk about being intellectually lazy. If there isn't anything else you can think of, don't artificially lengthen your list with "xyz."
There's more but I used it rhetorically. Surely I don't need to explain that?

- Blood group prevalence
- Effects of medications (e.g. in Medicine in the UK a first line drug for high blood pressure is something called an ACE inhibitor, providing you are younger than 55. However, due to differences in genetics blacks would be started on a different drug called a calcium channel blocker which has a totally different method of action.)
- Differences in lab test results (e.g. eGFR results for blacks)

Would it be better if I put "etc"?

This is all without going into more social differences like gang membership, % incarceration, political affiliation and so on
 
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It just seems a weird assumption considering we have:

- Differences in height
- Differences in muscle mass
- Differences in bone density
- Differences in susceptibility to disease
- Differences in xyz

and then we assume that something that is a product of the most complicated organic matter on earth doesn't vary between populations "just because" seems intellectually lazy.

I think it's fair to say that at birth, any person around the world has the same capacity for 'intelligence' as any other person. But, the environment that they grow up in dramatically shapes the way they think. Considering the brain's adaptability, I think it's folly to say or believe that the way a person's brain operates is predetermined by the population that they were born into.

The society that I was raised in, and more importantly my local environment, affected my development so that I have evolved into someone who is good at academic skills; so that I would fit the classic definition of intelligence. But, if I lived in an environment where academic skills are unknown and useless, then I'm sure I would have developed very different skills that would have been useful.

I'm sure that would hold true for many people around the world.
 
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Effects of medications (e.g. in Medicine in the UK a first line drug for high blood pressure is something called an ACE inhibitor, providing you are younger than 55. However, due to differences in genetics blacks would be started on a different drug called a calcium channel blocker which has a totally different method of action.)

Source for a genetic difference rather than the usual environmental findings around lifetime salt intake?
 
- Effects of medications (e.g. in Medicine in the UK a first line drug for high blood pressure is something called an ACE inhibitor, providing you are younger than 55. However, due to differences in genetics blacks would be started on a different drug called a calcium channel blocker which has a totally different method of action.)
Someone had better let my GP and local cardiology department know. I'm black (or "a black" as you put it) and take an ACE inhibitor every day. Perhaps not being raised in Africa has something to do with it.

From what I understand CCBs are regularly prescribed alongside ACE inhibitors for more serious cases of hypertension (source: British Heart Foundation) so I'm not sure where the idea that it's a drug that's only used for black people or that black people can't use ACE inhibitors comes from.
 
Just on bone density alone:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/82/2/429/2823249

* Granted, if you are talking about diet and nutrition in previous generations accounting for some change down the line then that wasn't tested, but you'd need to be more specific.

Interesting read, but that study says it's subjects ranged in age from 25-36, yet concluded this:

Racial Differences in Bone Density...
We conclude that racial differences in BMD are established early in childhood

I'd like to see a study looking at dietary/nutritional or behavioral differences in young children before just accepting this as an inherent genetic difference.

So you're saying that the diseases a group is or isn't exposed to influences their susceptibility but selective pressures on intelligence has no effect? Interesting :)

I am definitely saying the former, yes. It's pretty basic biology and immunology at this point to note that populations are very susceptible to pathogens their bodies have not been exposed to, and therefore have no learned response to.

As for the latter, I'm just very much not convinced. The two are so wildly different topics, not to mention that intelligence is significantly harder to measure than immunological function, that comparing the two as you're attempting to do is neither interesting nor particularly illuminating of anything at all.

There's more but I used it rhetorically. Surely I don't need to explain that?

I know you used it rhetorically. Rhetorically means "in terms of rhetoric or speech intended to impress or persuade."

To "impress or persuade" is exactly why people use phrases like "and so on," or "etc." or "and xyz" - to give the impression their position is backed up by lots of evidence. If there are other things you feel illustrate your point, then specify them.

- Blood group prevalence

A quick look brought me to one article that says (emphases mine):

Distribution of Blood Types
These patterns of ABO, Rh, and Diego blood type distributions are not similar to those for skin color or other so-called "racial" traits. The implication is that the specific causes responsible for the distribution of human blood types have been different than those for other traits that have been commonly employed to categorize people into "races." Since it would be possible to divide up humanity into radically different groupings using blood typing instead of other genetically inherited traits such as skin color, we have more conclusive evidence that the commonly used typological model for understanding human variation is scientifically unsound.

--

- Effects of medications (e.g. in Medicine in the UK a first line drug for high blood pressure is something called an ACE inhibitor, providing you are younger than 55. However, due to differences in genetics blacks would be started on a different drug called a calcium channel blocker which has a totally different method of action.)

@UKMikey already handled this one.

- Differences in lab test results (e.g. eGFR results for blacks)

While I can find some sources confirming that eGFR results do indeed seem to be different among races, I haven't found anything that studies why those differences exist. And that's the question here, isn't it? Do you have any sources that conclude eGFR disparities are due to genetic makeup rather than environmental factors? Any other lab results other than eGFR? Or is this another rhetorical trick?

Would it be better if I put "etc"?

Nope, it would still be the same transparent effort to inflate your argument.

This is all without going into more social differences like gang membership, % incarceration, political affiliation and so on

How exactly would social differences lend any credence to your claim of inherent biological differences?
 
I think it's fair to say that at birth, any person around the world has the same capacity for 'intelligence' as any other person. But, the environment that they grow up in dramatically shapes the way they think. Considering the brain's adaptability, I think it's folly to say or believe that the way a person's brain operates is predetermined by the population that they were born into.

The society that I was raised in, and more importantly my local environment, affected my development so that I have evolved into someone who is good at academic skills; so that I would fit the classic definition of intelligence. But, if I lived in an environment where academic skills are unknown and useless, then I'm sure I would have developed very different skills that would have been useful.

I'm sure that would hold true for many people around the world.
Where do you have the data to support that?

Source for a genetic difference rather than the usual environmental findings around lifetime salt intake?
I'm confused by your conclusions:

With a high salt diet and isradipine, mean systolic blood pressure (SD) in hypertensive patients of African ancestry (n = 42) was: placebo 155.2 (19.3) vs. isradipine 139.3 (15.0) mm Hg; a difference of −15.9; and in patients of European ancestry (n = 92) placebo 156.9 (14.5) vs isradipine 142.1 (13.0); a difference of −14.8. With low salt, systolic blood pressure in patients of African ancestry was placebo 142.9 (17.0) vs isradipine 135.8 (15.6); a difference of −7.1; and in patients of European ancestry placebo 143.5 (14.6) vs isradipine 135.9 (12.3), a difference of −7.6 [40]. In addition, with high salt intake, the mean blood pressure lowering effect of calcium blockers exceeded the effect of ACE inhibitors in patients of African, but not of European ancestry [41].


And the conclusion:

Available data are inconclusive regarding why patients of African ancestry display the typical response to antihypertensive drugs. In lieu of biochemical or pharmacogenomic parameters, self-defined African ancestry seems the best available predictor of individual responses to antihypertensive drugs.


Someone had better let my GP and local cardiology department know. I'm black (or "a black" as you put it) and take an ACE inhibitor every day. Perhaps not being raised in Africa has something to do with it.

From what I understand CCBs are regularly prescribed alongside ACE inhibitors for more serious cases of hypertension (source: British Heart Foundation) so I'm not sure where the idea that it's a drug that's only used for black people or that black people can't use ACE inhibitors comes from.
Do you have diabetes?

ACEI are preferred agents for those with diabetes but the NICE guidelines for non-diabetics are that someone who is 55 or younger is prescribed an ACEI only (unless it isn't controlled in which case you have more anti hypertension drugs) unless they are of Afro-Caribbean descent in which case they would have a CCB as first line.

Also, where did I say "a black"?

Interesting read, but that study says it's subjects ranged in age from 25-36, yet concluded this:



I'd like to see a study looking at dietary/nutritional or behavioral differences in young children before just accepting this as an inherent genetic difference.
I guess but that's assuming they had different nutritional patterns before the study that suddenly changed at the onset of the study.

huskeR32
I am definitely saying the former, yes. It's pretty basic biology and immunology at this point to note that populations are very susceptible to pathogens their bodies have not been exposed to, and therefore have no learned response to.

To me that seems odd as you are including one source of change but excluding another because it is a different type of selective pressure.

huskeR32
As for the latter, I'm just very much not convinced. The two are so wildly different topics, not to mention that intelligence is significantly harder to measure than immunological function, that comparing the two as you're attempting to do is neither interesting nor particularly illuminating of anything at all.

I find it interesting. Could be alone in that though....


huskeR32
A quick look brought me to one article that says (emphases mine):
That still doesn't address the differences though..

huskeR32
While I can find some sources confirming that eGFR results do indeed seem to be different among races, I haven't found anything that studies why those differences exist. And that's the question here, isn't it? Do you have any sources that conclude eGFR disparities are due to genetic makeup rather than environmental factors? Any other lab results other than eGFR? Or is this another rhetorical trick?

So something called creatine kinase also varies between ethnicities.

As for sources saying environmental factors all you need to do is log in to an NHS path lab computer and see that you change the eGFR reading by a multiple based on race and regardless of environmental circumstances to hopefully prove my point.

huskeR32
Nope, it would still be the same transparent effort to inflate your argument.
But then I'd have to provide an exhaustive list, something I definitely don't have the intelligence fo

huskeR32
How exactly would social differences lend any credence to your claim of inherent biological differences?
I think biology can influence societal differences, but as I only have an AS in Psychology I'd be happy to be disproved.
 
Available data are inconclusive regarding why patients of African ancestry display the typical response to antihypertensive drugs. In lieu of biochemical or pharmacogenomic parameters, self-defined African ancestry seems the best available predictor of individual responses to antihypertensive drugs.

You still seem to be extrapolating that to a genetic cause when there's no such conclusion in the review.

Source
We included environmental as well as biological factors, but we are aware that in a real world setting, differences in access to care, clinical management and adherence to treatment may have more impact on morbidity and mortality of patients of African ancestry than the differential response to antihypertensive drugs

and

Source
we systematically gathered evidence on biomarkers that may predict the response of individual persons of African ancestry to different types ofanti-hypertensive drugs. However, pharmacogenomics yield heterogeneous, insufficient evidence, and the low renin levels found with greater frequency in patients of African ancestry do not, or do not adequately, predict responses to antihypertensive drugs.
 
That's a global health concern.

I'm simply asking, why do we in the UK stratify patients based on ethnicity when it comes to antihypertensives.

So how does one conclude from that information, that there are genetic differences beween ethnicities that define potential in intelligence?
 
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