POLL. If you want standard cars to stay, why do you want them to stay?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YoungGTPlayer
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Why do you want standards to stay?


  • Total voters
    236
  • Poll closed .
Well things like livery editor and extensive modifications won't be possible on standards, will they? Unless they're planning to make two: one for premium and one for standards.
So, graphics, and whatever "extensive modifications" are.

Bear in mind that the "official" distinction in GT6 is for interior view only. Also, "Semi-Premiums".

EDIT: I disagree in principle that the Standards won't support a livery editor. The way I'd approach it, they would because it wouldn't make a difference. PD might take that route, certainly the editor itself would be built around the process I have in mind, but it remains to be seen if we even get the feature.
 
OK, so we've got visual modifications (graphics, mostly), and interior view (more graphics), and ... ?

I suppose adding "fidelity" would've made more sense; that user has a habit of framing those who don't like Standards as "expecting perfection" or something similar. Of course, ignoring that Kaz himself has said something to that effect... ;)

It really shouldn't be unreasonable to expect a higher quality of assets than what I was presented with fifteen years ago. But, to clarify my point; a livery editor won't be able to work identically between the two tiers - not really an issue of visual quality by itself, but about giving the user increased personalization options. Any hopes of an accurate, realistic damage model that takes into affect aerodynamics (even at simplified levels) are dashed with the current Standards. Actually, not just damage; piece-meal body kit application isn't really possible either, though I'll admit, I'm unsure if changing a bumper actually has any affect whatsoever on cars currently in GT6. Headlights and wipers aren't treated the same across both tiers.

Interior view, while certainly a graphical shortcoming, also does have an effect on gameplay for many players.
 
I suppose adding "fidelity" would've made more sense; that user has a habit of framing those who don't like Standards as "expecting perfection" or something similar. Of course, ignoring that Kaz himself has said something to that effect... ;)

It really shouldn't be unreasonable to expect a higher quality of assets than what I was presented with fifteen years ago. But, to clarify my point; a livery editor won't be able to work identically between the two tiers - not really an issue of visual quality by itself, but about giving the user increased personalization options. Any hopes of an accurate, realistic damage model that takes into affect aerodynamics (even at simplified levels) are dashed with the current Standards. Actually, not just damage; piece-meal body kit application isn't really possible either, though I'll admit, I'm unsure if changing a bumper actually has any affect whatsoever on cars currently in GT6. Headlights and wipers aren't treated the same across both tiers.

Interior view, while certainly a graphical shortcoming, also does have an effect on gameplay for many players.
There's nothing wrong with expecting it in principle. Expecting it when we've been told we're not getting it is another thing entirely.

The livery editor is, practically speaking, non-existent. We don't know how it works. I'd personally do it in a way that was totally agnostic as to the underlying geometry, and that's also the way an editor would be most intuitive to use. It's possibly unlikely PD would waste time on optimising for low-res geometry, should such a thing persist, or should such "optimisation" prove necessary. If the reason the Standard cars didn't get number stickers in the recent update is because they didn't want to spend the time manually placing them all, then we may be in luck; if it's because the method used to render them is incompatible with their geometry, we're probably not going to get a livery editor for Standards. Then again, dirt sticks to Standards just as it does Premiums... ;)

The damage model will never realistically affect aero, outside of fudges, for the foreseeable future, certainly not in real time. Those fudges could as easily apply to the Standards just the same. Of course, "aero damage" is relevant only to a small sub-section of cars and play styles, and strikes me as potentially being a somewhat sensitive area on the issue of "brands". Good to have, but I think it's unlikely to be anything but generic if implemented. The only thing that will really suffer is the visual representation of damage, unless tessellation can be leveraged, or if the Semi-Premium treatment spreads significantly.

The body parts are generally mere visual detail, they do not affect performance at all (except the "flat-floors", which aren't visually represented or available on all Premiums, and don't seem to work properly in the game anyway - oh, and the carbon bonnets, which are on some Standards, too). Even if they did affect performance, they needn't be visually represented, much as most of the modifications already aren't - the effort is in configuring all the cars in the game to have these parts. Any expectation that future games might have more visual representation of mods is probably wishful thinking; there are other places this is more appropriate and easily / efficiently achievable. Besides, Standards (and large car counts in general) seem most popular with those who don't modify their cars much, if at all.

The headlights' effect on the environment, and their controls, are the same between tiers now, there's just no visual representation on the Standard cars' exteriors; but the wipers are a strange one, I'll admit. It might be related to the black-frame, no bodywork interior views of the Standards, despite the GTPSP "version" of the view having visible exterior parts. I'm drawn to the issue of geometry culling and backface rendering; perhaps the PSP could use a screen-space method thanks to its low res and (relatively) high bandwidth. Or maybe it's the moving viewpoint (screen shake etc.) on PS3 that's messing things up.

There is an aesthetic concern with the interior view discrepancy, which does lead to a difference in experience for those who rely on it. I'm not convinced the black frame is functionally that inferior, though. But then I don't care for a cockpit view since it doesn't work very well with a narrow field of view, so it's all functionally inferior to me. We'll see what horrors an HMD unearths with Standard interiors soon enough! :dopey:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned physics, though! Surprised, but thankful.
 
It's like that Lancer @SuzukaStar mentioned. I got one in GT5 (never bothered with it in GT4) because I was curious as to where (or rather what) the Evo's came from, thinking it'd be a bit of fun to laugh kindly at the humble roots and that, and how quaint it was etc., thinking it'd be like the even older one is :dopey:

Actually, as it turned out, it's a cracking (fun) car in its own right, and one of my favourites now. This, really, is the essence of Gran Turismo, for me, and always has been. Similarly, I was overtaken by my favourite R33 Skyline on my way to work today; it's not been seen since GT2, and without which I probably wouldn't have a favourite R33. :(

I'm sure there are still other gems in the game that I've yet to discover.

Once upon a time, playing GT, for me, was all about making ballistic missiles and attempting to hot-lap Complex String or the Nürburgring with mates and a few beers, and before that it was all about the split-screen battle using carefully matched cars; but now it's more about finding those little gems of physical interaction. But even in the early days, there was an emphasis on choosing new cars to try.

I'm glad to be able to go back over what I might have missed from earlier games.
 
I've had a great idea. It's a little controversial but brilliant.

What they should do is make two GT7's. One with just Premium cars for all of us who have our heads screwed on properly and a Standard Edition for everyone else who doesn't seem to have any common sense. That way people who don't want them can avoid them completely and have a properly finished, next-gen experience and those who do can fork out extra money to get them instead of ruining the next-gen experience for everyone else! :D

Like I said, a great idea.
 
I've had a great idea. It's a little controversial but brilliant.

What they should do is make two GT7's. One with just Premium cars for all of us who have our heads screwed on properly and a Standard Edition for everyone else who doesn't seem to have any common sense. That way people who don't want them can avoid them completely and have a properly finished, next-gen experience and those who do can fork out extra money to get them instead of ruining the next-gen experience for everyone else! :D

Like I said, a great idea.
No, just include an option when starting a new game, and have that option available in the menus. Nobody's ruining your experience but you.

OK, that's maybe a little close to Buddhist "mind over matter" nonsense (ahem), but then again I do enjoy the exaggeration of the optical injuries people claim to suffer. Who are you to deny me this pleasure?! :dopey:
 
I don't wanna lose the 54 vette,or the Chevelle, or the cougar...

I could go on.
 
No, just include an option when starting a new game, and have that option available in the menus. Nobody's ruining your experience but you.

OK, that's maybe a little close to Buddhist "mind over matter" nonsense (ahem), but then again I do enjoy the exaggeration of the optical injuries people claim to suffer. Who are you to deny me this pleasure?! :dopey:

True, I do avoid Standards as it is with GT6. They just shouldn't be in GT5, let alone GT7.

Maybe there should be a charity set up for people who desperately need standard cars and we give £3 ($5) a month to aid these struggling, emancipated people who survive off of jagged, 10 year old assets?.. We can call it Standaid!! :dopey:
 
Your jokes are amazing, what book did you get them from?
True, I do avoid Standards as it is with GT6. They just shouldn't be in GT5, let alone GT7.

Maybe there should be a charity set up for people who desperately need standard cars and we give £3 ($5) a month to aid these struggling, emancipated people who survive off of jagged, 10 year old assets?.. We can call it Standaid!! :dopey:
 
Your jokes are amazing, what book did you get them from?

Unfortunately I've not been able to read since I bought the Suzuki Alto Works so no books I'm afraid. :(


I don't mean to troll but it was there for the taking :p . The whole pros/cons, fors/againsts standards thing is just going too far. There's been about 6,000 of these threads now and it's always the same argument each time. Half the people want them, half the people don't and it's purely laziness that PD are putting them in the next game because quantity is apparently better than quality... I mean, who would want 8 pristine Skylines, one representing each era of the car when you can have 46 jagged, mix-matched ones of 3 different qualities just to make a car list longer than The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy..? :crazy:
 
Unfortunately I've not been able to read since I bought the Suzuki Alto Works so no books I'm afraid. :(


I don't mean to troll but it was there for the taking :p . The whole pros/cons, fors/againsts standards thing is just going too far. There's been about 6,000 of these threads now and it's always the same argument each time. Half the people want them, half the people don't and it's purely laziness that PD are putting them in the next game because quantity is apparently better than quality... I mean, who would want 8 pristine Skylines, one representing each era of the car when you can have 46 jagged, mix-matched ones of 3 different qualities just to make a car list longer than The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy..? :crazy:

You just don't seem to understand basic logic. By leaving standards in, they cater for everyone. Leave them out, and they only cater for those who only want premium(50% of people you say)
 
You just don't seem to understand basic logic. By leaving standards in, they cater for everyone. Leave them out, and they only cater for those who only want premium(50% of people you say)
It doesn't cater to anyone buying a next gen console and expecting all next gen quality visual content in future games...you know...like in every other game you buy.
 
You just don't seem to understand basic logic. By leaving standards in, they cater for everyone. Leave them out, and they only cater for those who only want premium(50% of people you say)

... And everyone who wants standard cars isn't understanding the even simpler logic of a "next-gen game". Next-gen is short for Next Generation, meaning looking forward towards a new era. If you just keep regurgitating the same old assets from decades ago then it's never going to be next-gen, it's just going to be slightly-improved-gen... It baffles me that people can't grasp that.

Either way, I couldn't give a rats arse about people who want standards to survive. Move on, we're not in 2005 anymore. :rolleyes:
 
So the people who only want Premiums are also catered to by leaving Standards in?

: O





Basic logic is fun!

Yes, because they don't have to use standards. Especially if there is an option in game 'premium only' as has been suggested by many.
 
Just leave the standard cars in the dealership because they are not hurting anyone or anything being in their
 
Just leave the standard cars in the dealership because they are not hurting anyone or anything being in their
Heavens to Betsy, what a revelation!




Yes, because they don't have to use standards.
Unless we're talking about a game structure like GT5, in which case that argument falls apart before you even get out of the second event hall (not that that stopped people from still using it long after GT5 released, of course).

Especially if there is an option in game 'premium only' as has been suggested by many.
You mean only if there is an option in game "Premium Only" (either a literal option as talked about above, or a figurative one where the "Don't like don't drive" rebuttal actually applies), at which point the logical construct is completely different from the one you deemed to be so basic.
 
Heavens to Betsy, what a revelation!





Unless we're talking about a game structure like GT5, in which case that argument falls apart before you even get out of the second event hall (not that that stopped people from still using it long after GT5 released, of course).


You mean only if there is an option in game "Premium Only" (either a literal option as talked about above, or a figurative one where the "Don't like don't drive" rebuttal actually applies), at which point the logical construct is completely different from the one you deemed to be so basic.

Why are you still clinging to GT5 arguments, when they don't apply to GT6? Dramatic effect perhaps?
 
Why are you still clinging to GT5 arguments, when they don't apply to GT6?
You mean like the part where I said "a figurative (option) where the "Don't like don't drive" rebuttal actually applies" as a direct nod to GT6's structure?


Or are you just focusing entirely on the fact that I mentioned the GT5 scenario (which could very well reoccur, since we are talking about a hypothetical game structure for a game that hasn't even been announced yet) so you don't have to actually acknowledge that "If one group wants Standards removed, and the other group doesn't want Standards removed, siding with the second group pleases both parties" isn't actually a logical statement by itself despite how "basic" you claimed it to be immediately before saying it?
 
You mean like the part where I said "a figurative (option) where the "Don't like don't drive" rebuttal actually applies" as a direct nod to GT6's structure?

Or are you just focusing entirely on the fact that I mentioned the GT5 scenario (which could very well reoccur, since we are talking about a hypothetical game structure for a game that hasn't even been announced yet) so you don't have to actually acknowledge that "If one group wants Standards removed, and the other group doesn't want Standards removed, siding with the second group pleases both parties" isn't actually a logical statement by itself despite how "basic" you claimed it to be immediately before saying it?

It seems a basic concept that not removing standard content would cater to more people. It's not like premium content is being removed to allow for it. And the 'you don't have to use standard cars' argument is valid to many users, regardless of whether you suggest it is or isn't. It's not valid for you, perhaps, but you have not been voted a representative of any group, to my knowledge.
 
I have mixed feelings about standard models.

On one hand I want them gone because they decrease the quality of the game, they make the game look ugly as a whole.
But on other hand, there are some great standard cars that I would miss if they were gone.

PD had a wrong approach with GT6 and stanards, in my opinion, they should have not included all of them in game, but include the ones that are up to semi-premium status, and with that go working on the ones that aren't to throw them in game in a future update. Yes it would be a hard work, but would assure we'd be getting new content monthly.

Anyway what I think of this is that they should be at least updated to semi-premium, now is too late to remove them from the game, but is not too late to update the models.
 
Make two versions of GT7. One version has 500 premiums. Other version has 500 premiums + 500 standards.

Everyone wins. Why anyone would opt for the version with fewer cars is beyond me, but to each his own.
 
It seems a basic concept that not removing standard content would cater to more people.
So now you're saying "More people want Standards to stay and Less people want Standards removed, so leaving Standards will please more people." That is a basic concept, and is quite logically consistent if you assume the two starting arguments are true. The problem is that is also a different logical construct from the thing you brought up to point out how another member doesn't understand logical arguments. Which, again, was that two groups with directly opposing ideals would both be pleased by submitting to the whims of one of the groups; because it theoretically might not effect one of the groups either way.



Really, it's almost as if you dropped the "it's basic logic" bomb into the conversation to sound clever rather than actually understanding what you were saying when broken down logically. But you certainly wouldn't do that, right?


And the 'you don't have to use standard cars' argument is valid to many users, regardless of whether you suggest it is or isn't.
It's not a suggestion, though the attempt to paint something so blatant as GT5 requiring you to buy Standard cars to progress through the GT Life mode (to the extent that one of the post-release features sought to correct a design flaw with the UCD system that was introduced by the need to use Standard cars) as being a subjective viewpoint to further chase down a point that I already responded to rather than acknowledge the rebuttal given (all to defend an argument which is almost always used to try to squash dissent rather than actually say anything) is noted.


It's not valid for you, perhaps, but you have not been voted a representative of any group, to my knowledge.
Actually, it's funny you brought this up in a discussion about logic, since there's a very objective way to determine if "you don't have to use standard cars if you don't want to" is a valid argument:
Do you have to use the Standard cars to complete the game? Yes/No.




In GT5, you did, since there were a good number of events that required a Standard car to advance past to unlock the next one (due to GT5's "unique" progression system making any other option later in the game largely nonviable). And PD even acknowledged that it was necessary, since the OCD very quickly became a way to always have access at least one of the Standard cars (the Formula Gran Turismo, but usually a truck as well) required to progress through the game, compared to the sporadic appearance before that stopped players dead in their tracks as they tried to power-cycle the UCD.

Now I suppose you could argue that you didn't need to play the game as PD intended and you could still technically progress through the game (for example, if I started a new game and immediately hacked it I would bypass all of the "Standard car silliness" immediately), but by very nature of the things required to do so (forgoing the early event structure to instead grind races before it would usually be necessary to get around the early Standard-only races, or simply not playing GT Life at all and instead just playing through Seasonals and online, or just spending all of your time in Arcade mode) makes that argument a tad intellectually dishonest.
 
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Really, it's almost as if you dropped the "it's basic logic" bomb into the conversation to sound clever rather than actually understanding what you were saying when broken down logically. But you certainly wouldn't do that, right?
.

Actually it was directed towards that badger guy after he claimed he had his head screwed on properly, after which he admitted to trolling.
 
So here's a question. The thread is about why people who want to keep the standards want them, correct? So why are people who don't want them talking about why the don't want them?
 
So here's a question. The thread is about why people who want to keep the standards want them, correct? So why are people who don't want them talking about why the don't want them?

Correct.

Consistency - they fill every other thread with complaints, so figure why should this one be any different.
 
I want standards to be upgraded. Until then, I will take them as they appear versus not having them at all. The end.
 
Just leave the standard cars in the dealership. The end.
 
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