Polyphony Digital's General Shift in Philosophy -Hardcore fans UNITE.

[SleazyBig slim]

After much consideration, it seems to me that PD have undergone a general shift in attitude towards their games since GT4.

Preamble: I love Gran Turismo. I've been a fan since the first GT came out, and EVERY GT since then has been the sole reason of me buying a PS3.

I used to respect PD because no other developer out there had the attention to detail they did, and while others were always just trying to make a buck off of an over-hyped product, PD always kept it real, and just released great racing sims.

Now, it's safe to say that PD have shifted their focus to marketing hype, generating rumors, and generally just exploiting their hard-core fan base.

Examples:

Remember how long it took you to finish (100%) GT4? Remember how you had to grind MINIMALLY compared to GT5? Remember the diversity and number of events? I worked HARD finishing GT4, and it was VERY satisfying.

With GT5, it's different:

Instead of making the career mode complex, evolving, challenging, and diverse. (Like GT4 for example), they made it relatively simple, repetitive, easier, and grind-happy. (I'M PRACTICALLY DONE WITH GT5... if you factor out my grinding, I would've been done a while ago).

Still not convinced that PD is short-changing it's fans???

A perfect piece of evidence is in one of the MAJOR parts of update 1.05: you can now RESTART a race RIGHT AFTER you've just finished it!!!! WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT THAT?!!?!? I JUST FINISHED THIS RACE!!!!!!!!!

What's worse is that people are applauding this..... as if it's an improvement to the game.

If you care about the future of the GT series, and call yourself a true hardcore GT fan, you will use this thread to remind PD of how great they were, and how they should go back to that philosophy if they hope to hold on to this AMAZING fan base that is the GTPLANET community!

So, let's have it. Hard-core fans, list your nostalgia on how the previous GT games where better than GT5.......... More comprehensive, less insulting to gamers, and just generally.... finished games. My hope is that you'll help me divert the attention of PD to this. WE HAVE A SAY HERE. If we just sit back and take it, GT6 will only be worse.

Let's hear it.

-A hardcore GT fan since 1997.

So basicly you're mad because PD listened to its fans and made the game more enjoyable for them. You don't HAVE to restart a race or do anything else from the new update for that matter. You can still PLAY GT HOW YOU WANT. Go **** yourself dude, good ridence you wont be missed.

 

[Devedander]

Yup. I see your point. Restart is certainly useful for licenses and restarting if you don't get 1st place, etc.... what I have a problem with is people applauding it for it's 'grinding facilitation'. I just don't see why grinding should be an accepted part of the game. Imho, it shouldn't. Thanks for the contribution, 'dander, always a pleasure chatting.

Ah yes, the old rationlization to make a mistake into a good choice... I see what you are getting at and I agree... while it's better than nothing to have the restart, by far better is to not have so much grinding (and also have a restart why not).

 

[nicraM]

So basicly you're mad because PD listened to its fans and made the game more enjoyable for them. You don't HAVE to restart a race or do anything else from the new update for that matter. You can still PLAY GT HOW YOU WANT. Go **** yourself dude, good ridence you wont be missed.

Well put!

 

[YassirNosir]

If you don't like the game, don't play it. It really is that simple. Don't come here complaining because the games doesn't have what you want.

Go play Modern Warfare 2 or something.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

If you don't like the game, don't play it. It really is that simple. Don't come here complaining because the games doesn't have what you want.

Go play Modern Warfare 2 or something.

I don't like the game?

You really don't understand the post.

Modern Warfare? What is that? I only play GT. I bought the consoles (PS, PS2, and PS3) because of GT. That is mentioned in the original post.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

So basicly you're mad because PD listened to its fans and made the game more enjoyable for them. You don't HAVE to restart a race or do anything else from the new update for that matter. You can still PLAY GT HOW YOU WANT. Go **** yourself dude, good ridence you wont be missed.

It's spelled 'riddance'.

Thanks for your contribution. I feel enlightened by your insight.

 

[Amused2Death66]

Oh man - I've been pulled to bits in the "update" thread for my dissatisfaction with the update and how people are taking nuggets thinking they are diamonds.

OP - You have encapsulated the truth perfectly. I can only feel that those who are worshipping GT5 in some strange godlike manner simply have no idea about the scope and depth of the previous games.

They get 5 new races (wow I mean just wow) and think its the second coming.

This game could have been epic but its just empty and devoid of everything that made GT so great.

I salute your honesty and understanding.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

Ah yes, the old rationlization to make a mistake into a good choice... I see what you are getting at and I agree... while it's better than nothing to have the restart, by far better is to not have so much grinding (and also have a restart why not).

Thanks 'Dander.

By the way, good choice on the signature..... never has it been more apt than in this thread.

 

[Tweetman_277]

This has happened before!!! With the jump from PS1 to PS2 we got a huge improvement to graphics, a huge diversity of events and a slightly more sensibly lengthy career, BUT we got 450 cars LESS!!! This time weve gone fro 2-3 and been given More cars, but less events... There is a sort of poetic symmetry in this fact... GT6 will more likely get it right. The events will [hopefully] be GT4 massive and we'll [again, hopefully] get more cars... I can only have confidence that it'll be good if it appears before PS4.

 

[Amused2Death66]

GT5 is trying to focus towards online play. This is about the 5th thread I've repeated this but ONLINE IS THE FUTURE.

Look at other examples.
Mario Cart is STILL original priced. How old is it and it's still popular enough to command top dollar? Why? Because of ONLINE play.

COD has very, very small offline gameplay. You don't prestige up unless you go online.

Red Dead Redemption. Very cool offline BUT you "legend" up online and get gold guns/special mounts online.

GT6 won't be any better for offline play. If anything it will be smaller. Those days are gone.

This is just utter drivel and you shoot yourself in the foot by quoting the above games. Read Dead/COD have hugely superior online functionality than GT5. If the excuse is that it is now an online game then the online should have been made much much better. COD games have 1000x better online and they are knocked out in a 2 year period.

 

[Troux]

GT5 is as much Sony's game as it is Kaz's. That's why there was so much delay to make it 1080p (although I think it should have been from the start), that's why it was pushed for the holiday season (it's a console mover, clearly), and that's why we'll eventually be charged for DLC.

We simply don't know how many of these design choices were PD's and how much were Sony's. Maybe Sony asked for a game that was going to be a bit more enjoyable for the less hardcore. A game that didn't require a car enthusiast/tuner/racer to go further with (adjusting top speed instead of gear ratios, the option to choose easy or realistic wet conditions, skid recovery, etc.).

Either way, there are some basic menu changes that have needed a change for a while. I am SOOOOO glad I don't automatically start watching a replay after I finish my race as the old games did. The restart after a race is a no brainer that should have been there. It's really salt on the wound when I get Shanghai'd out of a first place win on the last corner, or the last straight, then it ends up costing me an extra 5 minutes of loading screens. As has been mentioned, we need confirmation before restarting a race in the middle, and another easy annoyance to fix is when you pause and go to the options menu, you can't go back to the pause screen, you go right back to the race. May seem small, but it's just evidence that this game didn't see much trial before hitting the shelves.

I'm on the list of disappointed long-time GT fans, but I think you're picking the wrong bones here.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

GT5 is as much Sony's game as it is Kaz's. That's why there was so much delay to make it 1080p (although I think it should have been from the start), that's why it was pushed for the holiday season (it's a console mover, clearly), and that's why we'll eventually be charged for DLC.

We simply don't know how many of these design choices were PD's and how much were Sony's. Maybe Sony asked for a game that was going to be a bit more enjoyable for the less hardcore. A game that didn't require a car enthusiast/tuner/racer to go further with (adjusting top speed instead of gear ratios, the option to choose easy or realistic wet conditions, skid recovery, etc.).

Either way, there are some basic menu changes that have needed a change for a while. I am SOOOOO glad I don't automatically start watching a replay after I finish my race as the old games did. The restart after a race is a no brainer that should have been there. It's really salt on the wound when I get Shanghai'd out of a first place win on the last corner, or the last straight, then it ends up costing me an extra 5 minutes of loading screens. As has been mentioned, we need confirmation before restarting a race in the middle, and another easy annoyance to fix is when you pause and go to the options menu, you can't go back to the pause screen, you go right back to the race. May seem small, but it's just evidence that this game didn't see much trial before hitting the shelves.

I'm on the list of disappointed long-time GT fans, but I think you're picking the wrong bones here.

Quite possible. I've thought of the Sony-PD exchanges..... If that's the case, then if I were PD I'd try to hold my ground a bit more.

You make a good point.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

Oh man - I've been pulled to bits in the "update" thread for my dissatisfaction with the update and how people are taking nuggets thinking they are diamonds.

OP - You have encapsulated the truth perfectly. I can only feel that those who are worshipping GT5 in some strange godlike manner simply have no idea about the scope and depth of the previous games.

This game could have been epic but its just empty and devoid of everything that made GT so great.

I salute your honesty and understanding.

Thanks. I've been ripped to shreds here too... Sometimes constructively, other times, not so much.

Whether you wanna say it's nuggets seen as diamonds, or a saltine cracker when you're starving..... I think that Eddie Murphy sums it up nicely here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0x_dFMnZVI

Cheers 'Amused.

 

[SleazyBig slim]

Oh man - I've been pulled to bits in the "update" thread for my dissatisfaction with the update and how people are taking nuggets thinking they are diamonds.

OP - You have encapsulated the truth perfectly. I can only feel that those who are worshipping GT5 in some strange godlike manner simply have no idea about the scope and depth of the previous games.

They get 5 new races (wow I mean just wow) and think its the second coming.

This game could have been epic but its just empty and devoid of everything that made GT so great.

I salute your honesty and understanding.

Those 5 new races will get updated and changed to different events every few weeks, so GT5 will have more diversity and content then any games in the series prior. Whats the problem? GT5 will actually give you a reason to use most of your cars when its all said and done. These updates will continue for years to come, at least until GT6. There is no reason to complain really. You can now grind with your friends online and level up and get credit and xp, if that's not variety I don't know what is? Its not going to get boring this way. And there's much more to come. They haven't even added the online matchmaking yet, witch when they do will truly set this game apart. And you best believe those matchmaking races (basically A-Spec online) will get updated often as well.

 

[Amused2Death66]

Those 5 new races will get updated and changed to different events every few weeks, so GT5 will have more diversity and content then any games in the series prior. Whats the problem? GT5 will actually give you a reason to use most of your cars when its all said and done. These updates will continue for years to come, at least until GT6. There is no reason to complain really. You can now grind with your friends online and level up and get credit and xp, if that's not variety I don't know what is? Its not going to get boring this way. And there's much more to come. They haven't even added the online matchmaking yet, witch when they do will truly set this game apart. And you best believe those matchmaking races (basically A-Spec online) will get updated often as well.

At an optimistic update of 5 races per fortnight it would take many years to have anywhere near the number of GT4 events, with no option to re-race should I so wish. That is a step back not forward.

 

[NeuroFiZT]

Those 5 new races will get updated and changed to different events every few weeks, so GT5 will have more diversity and content then any games in the series prior. Whats the problem? GT5 will actually give you a reason to use most of your cars when its all said and done. These updates will continue for years to come, at least until GT6. There is no reason to complain really. You can now grind with your friends online and level up and get credit and xp, if that's not variety I don't know what is? Its not going to get boring this way. And there's much more to come. They haven't even added the online matchmaking yet, witch when they do will truly set this game apart. And you best believe those matchmaking races (basically A-Spec online) will get updated often as well.

Let's hope you're right. All you said would be great.

If they half-a$$ed the development of the game BEFORE release (for 5 years I might add... and didn't test it, it appears), then what makes me think they'll put development effort in now?

I think PD should pay us for being beta-testers.... because that's what's happening here. Instead... they're even talking about CHARGING us for content they're including based on our feedback?

Seriously though.... to me, it doesn't seem like they had people testing the game and providing feedback. That's happening now. This is GT5beta.

 

[craigm26]

Of course COD has better matchmaking.... Fewer technical details in a shooting online game than what GT5 would have. I thought GT5 prologue was worthless in the online.

I agree GT5 is surprising short on depth but I seriously believe that PD tried to do a lot on a crap development system. I'm glad we cleared the definition on grinding and honestly didn't do much of it until last night. And I'm like 60% done with the game. GT4 was this long slog of a march towards 100%. Which, I think was better but given some the design choices here and there, GT5 might turn out better than we expected?

 

[Amused2Death66]

Of course COD has better matchmaking.... Fewer technical details in a shooting online game than what GT5 would have. I thought GT5 prologue was worthless in the online.

I agree GT5 is surprising short on depth but I seriously believe that PD tried to do a lot on a crap development system. I'm glad we cleared the definition on grinding and honestly didn't do much of it until last night. And I'm like 60% done with the game. GT4 was this long slog of a march towards 100%. Which, I think was better but given some the design choices here and there, GT5 might turn out better than we expected?

I can't see how there are fewer technical details in COD. I would have thought with all the challenges etc and huge maps with 18 people on it would have been harder, but I'm not a programmer so wouldn't really know.

However Forza is in the same ballpark and has a far superior online system from the day of release.

 

[SleazyBig slim]

At an optimistic update of 5 races per fortnight it would take many years to have anywhere near the number of GT4 events, with no option to re-race should I so wish. That is a step back not forward.

Um did you read the part I posted about matchmaking? That's basically what they gave us for online mode in GT5 Prologue. That alone is going to add a lot of new events and best of all they will continue to update them and change them as well. So what you wont be able to go re race the old events once they change them, but this is whats going to keep you coming back to GT5. Genius strategy really.

 

[Amused2Death66]

Um did you read the part I posted about matchmaking? That's basically what they gave us for online mode in GT5 Prologue. That alone is going to add a lot of new events and best of all they will continue to update them and change them as well. So what you wont be able to go re race the old events once they change them, but this is whats going to keep you coming back to GT5. Genius strategy really.

IF they finally get around to a proper matchmaking system with a host of events like GT prologue then this will indeed improve the online system, but it really should have been there for release - not months down the road.

 

[SleazyBig slim]

Let's hope you're right. All you said would be great.

If they half-a$$ed the development of the game BEFORE release (for 5 years I might add... and didn't test it, it appears), then what makes me think they'll put development effort in now?

I think PD should pay us for being beta-testers.... because that's what's happening here. Instead... they're even talking about CHARGING us for content they're including based on our feedback?

Seriously though.... to me, it doesn't seem like they had people testing the game and providing feedback. That's happening now. This is GT5beta.

Perhaps if they had testers from the western world things would be different? They are a Japanese company so that's pretty much never going to happen.

 

[craigm26]

I haven't played forza and I hear development on xbox is much easier.

Yeah, I can see why people are disappointed (Valid reasons in this thread; I am in ways but wanted to try to defend it). Given my background and knowledge, I'll let the disappointments slide on PD and blame mostly Sony for the hardware.

 

[Smoothherb]

To the OP. You are absolutely right but:
1. GT4 = career GT5 = online
You are done with gt5? Yea, because you are a hardcore-fan that runs through gt live in 14 days (it was meant to take a little bit longer I think) But the main focus is not longer in career its in online now and we will see many things we didn´t until now.
2. GT5 is not finished yet.
I don´t know why but we will see step by step more events on and offline, so you don´t have to grind and can reach level 50 or 100% without grinding.
I find I strange that PD goes this way because it must have been be ready from start. They just throw things at us some time later.


So I am confident that GT5 will give me good times and that for a long Time.

 

[ken2903]

I agree with the OP 100%

Well said

 

[ken2903]

Perhaps if they had testers from the western world things would be different? They are a Japanese company so that's pretty much never going to happen.

That is an awesome idea.

 

[rexc]

I think that GT5 will be seen as a transition game within the Gran Turismo series

If you read a bit about what Kaz has been doing, there have been quite a few changes in his life since GT4. Most noteably his sucess and wealth now allow him to indulge his passion for cars in a way that must have seemed unimaginable when the series first started out.

I believe this is resulting in a fundamental shift in his views about what a motor car is and how he wants to reflect this in his art (game), moving from a very japanese view (Nissan Skyline anyone ?) to a far deeper and more nuanced appreciation of the automobile on all levels as a result of his exposure to rare and iconic cars at the likes of the Pebble Beach events, to actually racing the Nurburgring in real life. I also believe this shift in his mindset is not yet complete.

Add to that the technology of the PS3, Blueray, Online and he now has a far broader medium than ever before to try and express a vision that is still in transition.

All of this I think has combined to give us GT5 as we see it. A game that is both amazing, and frustrating, incredibly detailed, and woefully incomplete. For all its brillance, the one thing that strikes me about GT5 is it just doesn't have the feeling of a coherent whole. Yes we now do damage, well kind of, sometimes. Yes we now do weather, on this track, but not that one. The same with day / night transitions. Amazing car models, along side some that clearly predate even GT4.

This lack of coherency I believe directly reflects the current lack of a coherent view in Kaz's mind of what he wants his game to be, and what he wants it to reflect, outside of course the general goal to be 'the ultimate driving simulator'

I have no doubt that these things will resolve themselves, as they tend to do with time, and that a coherent view will emerge. I have no idea how that view will express itself in GT6, but I for one am greatly enjoying the transition. Because out there on the Nurburgring, in a great car on realistic tyres, all is forgiven, and you know you are in the in the presence of brillance.👍

 

[dothackRAVE]

Guys, grinding is a part of racing. It's about doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over (add one "over" for every lap you make. 24 Hours of Le Mans will need you to do the same thing for about 450+ times, about 160 times per driver).

That's what racers call consistency.

Seriously, if you hate the grind that much, you've bought the wrong game. This game simulates driving and racing. Racing IS grinding.

You know what I do to make it fun? I just go get my 1st place as soon as possible and then after that it's all about shaving seconds off my lap time.

Also..., I'm kinda curious... What exactly do you guys consider "incomplete". I haven't noticed anything missing from the game itself since I bought it. Been doing races online and offline nearly non-stop. Maybe GT4 was so long ago that I didn't even care. The only thing I've noticed is the 200 premium cars and 800+ standard cars. I have no complaints there really. I just buy almost exclusively premium cars and then drive em. 200+ cars is a **** ton. I take about a week to fully enjoy each car and such... So this game may last me 200 weeks, or just less than 4 years.

2. GT5 is not finished yet.
I don´t know why but we will see step by step more events on and offline, so you don´t have to grind and can reach level 50 or 100% without grinding.
I find I strange that PD goes this way because it must have been be ready from start. They just throw things at us some time later.

Maybe it's to prevent people from finishing the game too fast? I can totally see why, since there's online now. If they just open up the taps everyone would have Redbull X1s by now. Have you played Forza 3 online? Everyone and their mom drives a LMP race car. Makes online boring as ****. No one wants to race Yaris ****boxes.

And they just upped the rewards for their A-spec and B-spec races. Eases the pain quite a bit!

 

[SleazyBig slim]

IF they finally get around to a proper matchmaking system with a host of events like GT prologue then this will indeed improve the online system, but it really should have been there for release - not months down the road.

Matchmaking is in the manual so you best believe its coming. Sony got tired of waiting and needed a big game for the holidays so they forced PD to hurry up with GT5. Should be obvious with the botched release. Wouldn't you rather play it now and have them release updates, then get it a year down the road with more content, but of course they would still have to release updates, no?

 

[YoanP]

👍👍 That's it!!

Gotta disagree with the hating on the restart option... the legitimate reason to want to restart is noteably in license tests. If you finish the test you will have to load several screens to get another try. This means in all the license tests I have done the hundreds of times I come up a fraction of a second short I have to reload multiple screens to try again when my goal is simply to try again and again as fast as I can so I can get the gold.

If I screw up bad, I will just ram a wall and force a restart easily, but when you are close to gold you have to ride it through and see if you win... I am glad those forced reloads are gone now.

Also during normal races, if I don't get first, I will probably want to try again right after. I can always restart the race instead of finishing but then I miss a lot of XP and Cr (which I have done many times because I didn't want to wait for the course to reload).

 

[MeechShrykull]

1. Prize exclusive cars.
2. Rewinnable prize cars.
3. MOAR EVENTS PLZ.
4. NO MOAR BSPEC PLZ.
'nuff said.