Practice Tracks in Sections in GT5 thread of apples being orange rewindists

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First off, why is a casual even buying something called a driving simulator? He needs to be playing mario Kart.

A lot of GT players are casual. I'm one of them.

Unless you mean noob racers try to play mario cart tactics on GT?
 
sumbrownkid
A lot of GT players are casual. I'm one of them.

Unless you mean noob racers try to play mario cart tactics on GT?

Why do you buy GT?
 
Cause I love cars.

Yeah that's why I suspect most casuals buy GT. I can see your stance.

However, hopefully most casuals who do buy GT because of the cars or graphics undertsand that because it is a simulator, it has a very steep learning curve. This learning curve is best overcome by many hours of practice, and not many hours of rewinding.

Rewinding, in my opinion, cheats the casual out of a real experience. There is so much more enjoyment in accomplishing something the right, pure way. If a casual rewinds his way through a race he's only cheated himself.
 
^You are on the money about the steep learning curve.

When I popped in GT1 when I was 7 (holy crap that's 13 years ago) at the time, I became infuriated at the thought of doing icense tests to proceed. My reasoning was tests should be regulated to school. And school was evil. Anyway, I came to appreciate the steep learning curve that helped this casual gamer/racer. That's why Forza disappointed me in this aspect.

Come to think of it, the steep learning curve concept of GT helped me understand Chemistry and Physics in high school as deep learning curves.

Wow video games can help you in the real-world.
 
Gran Turismo is not consumer led. Kaz and his design team will decide whether or not to include this feature. Nothing we say will influence him, unless we are unanimously in favour of it. Damage was wanted by practically the entire GT community, but rewind is disliked by well over half, so i can bet odds on it will not be included in the game.

I am a casual gamer and i hate the idea of rewind. The idea that casual gamers would require rewind confuses me. In the past on GT games, i havn't bothered practicing a circuit, i just get a car and race. If my car is too slow i upgrade so i can blitz my cmpetition with little to no skill. The product of that is i do actually have a bit of skill now. I don't think rewind would have helped me along the way, i think it would have slowed the process, or made me bored a lot quicker.

Although in GT5P i feel i want to get a better experience, so i moved to pro physics, manual gears and eventually i will get a wheel. If i had rewind, i would just rewind when i go wrong. Because you can achieve perfection with a controller, consistency is the main problem.

Anyway back on topic, i think the practice sections would be useful, but i like practicing full circuits also. If i was having a problem with a particular section (Maybe section 2 of Suzuka for example) i could have a go at it without doing the first few corners which take around 20-30 seconds.
 
GT is probably the most casual friendly racing simulators, it forces you to take lessons on how to drive before you jump in and crash all over the place and get angry. I didn't find the learning curve that steep. Before GT, braking into a corner was incomprehensible.

Practicing in sections would be a feature more for the hardcore players who need to get one section up to par with the rest so that section doesn't disturb the rhythm.

Rewind allows you to fix your mistake before you're done making it, it takes away consequences and the need to learn. When racing you have to think not just about the corner ahead, but the subsequent 2-5 corners as well. Rewind treats racing as a corner to corner affair, but Practicing in sections is more realistic. On top of that, I can't see how a casual who rewinds through a race would find any fun in it.

Btw, GT3 kind of helped me pass my license test in real life, since that was when I started driving, and wasn't very comfortable behind the wheel. My friend gave me GT3 as a present since EVERYONE were playing it back then (2003?)and I played it on my brother's PS2. I felt much more comfortable in a car after that, strangely.
 
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GT consistently sells millions of copies, more than most other games. Do you really think the casual gamer makes up a minority of that number? Does the hardcore ever account of a mojority? (hint, by definnition it does not).

The logic that the casual should look elsewhere is flawed and I garauntee you not an argument Sony or PD will put much weight behind considering casual gamers money is just as green as yours or mine.

As for rewind cheating someone ot of the experience:

First off, if someone wants to cheat themselves out of it, how does that effect you or me? Game Genie allowed thousands (millions?) to cheat themselves out of tons of games, did that damage your or my enjoyment at all of those same games?

Secondly have you considered that those who will be using rewind will likely be the ones who otherwise would give up on GT all together due to frustation? So essentially how does one cheat themselves out of an exerience they weren't going to have in the first place?

Again all the "against" arguments so far have been either an elitest point of view (MY game is so awesome those pions don't desserve in if they can't be as good as my and struggle as hard as I did" or based on flawed or half assumptions (ie rewind will only be abused ad infinitum and won't be a learning tool).

People seem way too overconcerned with pinning their beliefs and feelings about GT on the rest of the world. Here's something to think about:

Maybe other gamers don't need you protection... maybe they can decide for themselve if something ruins the game or if they prefer it that way. Maybe their skill set and enjoyment isn't taken the same way yours is...

I don't care that my great grandfather had to walk uphill 4 miles in the snow to school both ways every day always and that's what made him a man... I will go ahead and choose not to and you know what? I am just fine with it.

So why does the way we all ground our way through previous GTs mean anything about how others in the future should have ther experiences controlled?

Again, if it doens't effect you, and you have an easy option to ignore/not use it, what exactly legitimate reason could you have to want it out?

Becuase "it's cheating"? OK let's say it is... so what then? If I play basketball and count baskets I didn't make as points, but I can only do that by myself and not when playing with others how does that hurt you? What if I play golf and write down the wrong score every hole? If I am just playing by myself it makes no difference.

Cheating is only a valid argument if in some way someone can cheat YOU. Otherwise "cheating" is nothing more than playing by whatever rules make YOU happy.

Even if every person who in't good at GT only used rewind to blast through career mode, how exactly would that effect you? It wouldn't.

Does hitting a baseball off a T have the same satisfaction as hitting a 100mph fastball from a majorleague pitcher? No. But the two aren't mutually exclusive and one can be the foundation for the other. Just like rewind.

Rewind allows you to fix your mistake before you're done making it, it takes away consequences and the need to learn. When racing you have to think not just about the corner ahead, but the subsequent 2-5 corners as well. Rewind treats racing as a corner to corner affair, but Practicing in sections is more realistic. On top of that, I can't see how a casual who rewinds through a race would find any fun in it.

Rewind can be used for multiple corners end to end... if you have some esses you can practice them all or any given part as you see fit. If a player is interested in learning, rewind can accomodate any section of track, if they aren't interested in learning, they weren't going to go learning another way (as if someone who isn't going to bother learning via an easy to access rewind button will somehow be intersted and studius enough to go into a full on practice mode? ).

I can't see how people can any fun in hitting a baseball off a T but little kids have a ball doing it all the time. Just because people at your and my level don't enjoy it doesn't mean someone else won't.

It's like take back a move in chess. Good chess players probably scoff at it, but I am not good at chess, and if it wasn't for undo on my compute chess game, I wouldn't bother playing. Knowing I can take back a move if I screw up lets me relax while I play and I have definitely gotten better over time even with take back a move at my finger tips. In the beginning I took back any move that lost me a piece, that got mundane fast so I started using take back a move less and less. Finally I got good enough that I could put up a good fight. As it is sometimes I can win a game without taking back any moves, and sometimes I still take back a move or two when things get bad and learn from those mistakes. I don't have to play a whole game to see the value of a move, and yes chess is a game of fluidity where a string of move is more important than a single move.
 
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People seem way too overconcerned with pinning their beliefs and feelings about GT on the rest of the world
yes, you do seem very invested in this, that just clogging up your own rewind thread wasn't enough, you have to come in to evangelize it here as well.

You still haven't given me a reason why rewind > sections. Racing is about hitting a rhythm and going through a series of corners, not hitting rewind as you're about to hit the grass and doing over.

Let me make it simple for you:

Rewind = unrealistic, requires extra resources to make, tacky, unnecessary, arcady. + Bonus: NO ONE WANTS IT.
Practicing in sections = Realistic, requires much less extra resources, subtle, useful, not arcady. + Bonus: IT'S NOT CHEATING.
 
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If I was forced to choose, it would be practicing sections >>> rewind, hands down.
 
yes, you do seem very invested in this, that just clogging up your own rewind thread wasn't enough, you have to come in to evangelize it here as well.

You still haven't given me a reason why rewind > sections. Racing is about hitting a rhythm and going through a series of corners, not hitting rewind as you're about to hit the grass and doing over.

Let me make it simple for you:

Rewind = unrealistic, requires extra resources to make, tacky, unnecessary, arcady. + Bonus: NO ONE WANTS IT.
Practicing in sections = Realistic, requires much less extra resources, subtle, useful, not arcady. + Bonus: IT'S NOT CHEATING.
Practicing in sections = realistic eh? Rubbish. In real life, would you practice a section and then have your car magically appear right where it started, ready to practice that bit again? No.

Performing lap after lap to perfect the track is realistic, everything else is unrealistic and cheating to some degree.
 
As shown in that online list from 07 with Kaz, PD could include an online/offline track day feature so people can learn about the tracks together at different skill levels, gain new driving skills & abilities of the cars you are driving.More true to life to include that, than trying to learn everything & gaining skills in time trial, in arcade mode or GT mode races.
 
Let me make it simple for you:

Rewind = unrealistic, requires extra resources to make, tacky, unnecessary, arcady. + Bonus: NO ONE WANTS IT.
Practicing in sections = Realistic, requires much less extra resources, subtle, useful, not arcady. + Bonus: IT'S NOT CHEATING.

I don't get how you are so vehemently against rewind while advocating something that is a subset of rewind. In your proposal each time you get to the end of a section you "rewind" back to the beginning of the section. How is that realistic? Its not. In real life you have to go all the way around the track and try it again. Rewind is the same thing except more flexible. You can choose the exact sections of the track that you want to practice. You are not limited to pre-defined sections. It is not limiting to rewinding just when you go off the track. You could for instance be practicing whole laps and decide that you want to concentrate on one section. Instead of exiting the mode and starting up the practice section mode and picking the closest section that you want to practice, you can immediately rewind and practice the exact section that you want to as many times as you want to. When you are done you can go back to doing full laps to see if your practice made any difference to your lap times.

Again, what you are proposing is a subset of rewind and that is why rewind is coming up in your thread. In fact this very idea was proposed in the rewind thread and there was some good discussion about it. It has advantages and disadvantages but it is not any more realistic.

EDIT: With respect to cheating: If a professional race car team were to incorporate either rewind or practicing sections into their simulators (ignoring whether they actually do or would even want to), would they be accused of cheating? Of course not. It is an absurd argument.
 
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I think people are overestimating the effect of practicing a small section of a track again and again. From my experience, it is just as if not more important to get the feel of the track as a whole. Sure, you need to learn which corner's next and it also helps, if you know how to drive them best, but you need to develop a rhythm and this isolated training doesn't help you a lot with that. For me, that's just monotonous and possibly will make me hate a particular corner. :sly:

In this isolated set-up, where you start at a certain speed before a corner, for some reason I also am more prone to error than during a normal lap. I made this experience that when I pause a racing game and then continue, even if it is only a short interruption, I make a lot of mistakes right after, although I went, say, 20 laps without an error before. I think that's bascially, because you lose that rhythm. (And you might also forget in what state your car was - tyres, etc....sometimes those tiny things make the deciding difference that make you lose the car in the corner. If not, you're driving too slow - hehe.)

Anyway, for tracks that are totally new to me, it takes about 10-20 laps to reach good lap times, although that heavily depends on the track's length. I would also advise to start with relatively slow cars and gradually get into quicker cars. It helps a lot, if you still have time for orientation between corners on your first laps and don't have to continuously fight the car. That's the best approach for me at least.
 
yes, you do seem very invested in this, that just clogging up your own rewind thread wasn't enough, you have to come in to evangelize it here as well.

You still haven't given me a reason why rewind > sections. Racing is about hitting a rhythm and going through a series of corners, not hitting rewind as you're about to hit the grass and doing over.

Let me make it simple for you:

Rewind = unrealistic, requires extra resources to make, tacky, unnecessary, arcady. + Bonus: NO ONE WANTS IT.
Practicing in sections = Realistic, requires much less extra resources, subtle, useful, not arcady. + Bonus: IT'S NOT CHEATING.

Why rewind is better:

You can do it without having to go into a special mode to do it. Casual gamers dont' tend to like to go into a proactice only mode.

You can do it more granularly than practice mode: Replay lets you pick the exact spot to start your section, not just by a line on a map, litterally the exact from your car is where you want to start.

Replay gives you infinite training options. Are you going to build every turn into practice, then build every pair of turns, then every set of 3 turns etc etc? No... Rewind lets you choose to practice ANY section no matter how long or how short that section is.

Replay lets you practice under real racing circumstances becuase... you are in a real race when you invoke it. Practice mode puts you in static positions or at best lets you place your car, speed and opponents, however even then there is no way to know that those represent a real racing situation and to do that would be REALLY tedious.

The only benefit practice has over replays:

Timer let's you time certain sections. This is a plus if you are good enough you are worried about shaving hundreths off a curve. But by then you really are probably good enough to just be hot lapping to check times.

You can't "Cheat" with practice. And if the fact that other people, in the comfort of their own homes, and in no way effecting your game play are doing something differently than you see fit... well I have bad news for ya... far worse/grosser/annoying things are happenign every day in millions of houses the world over :D

BTW rewind takes extra resources? The code to handle everythign that happens is already there from replay mode anyway, it just needs to be coded to be accesible from live races. Practice mode doesn't take resourse? Um... it's a whole new mode... it's like another license test... if either take resources, it's practice mode.

Tacky and arcady? Well those are about as subjective as it gets. I could just as easily say that it's eye candy and exciting where you say tacky and arcady.

Unecessary vs necessary? Depends who you are and what your skill set is and what you consider necessary. Are license tests necessary? Are cars I don't like necessary?

As brought up above, practice mode essentially "rewinds" you to the start of th section every time you finsih. Is it just the eye candy part of rewind you are against?

Again we see it, no logical arguments against, but plenty of emotionally based attacks... very well then.
 
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Yes definitely, when I was learning Nurburgring for GT4 mission 34 I had to go round sooo many times, towards the end it was basically trying out the final corner to be learnt but having to wait 7 minuets between each attempt! On the other hand I did get the 4h enduro done so it wasn't a complete waist of time.
 
Yes definitely, when I was learning Nurburgring for GT4 mission 34 I had to go round sooo many times, towards the end it was basically trying out the final corner to be learnt but having to wait 7 minuets between each attempt! On the other hand I did get the 4h enduro done so it wasn't a complete waist of time.

But now you know the whole track better because you had to run it so many times I bet, and I also bet that the last corner "flows" better for you now then it would if you just kept rewinding and redoing that one corner, rythem man, rythem.
 
But now you know the whole track better because you had to run it so many times I bet, and I also bet that the last corner "flows" better for you now then it would if you just kept rewinding and redoing that one corner, rythem man, rythem.

Well if he had had rewind, he coudl have probably figured out the last corner pretty quickly, then spent some time doing the whole loop and gotten the whole thing pretty much down pat in much less time. It's not a choice of one or the other, it's a matter of use the right tool at the appropriate time for your skill level.

No one is saying use rewind exclusively and instead of practicing the whole thing as a learning tool, but rather use rewind until you are good enough that practicing the entire thing is fun and not frustrating anymore.
 
Agreed. Point taken, I guess he could learn rythem later.
 
GT consistently sells millions of copies, more than most other games. Do you really think the casual gamer makes up a minority of that number? Does the hardcore ever account of a mojority? (hint, by definnition it does not).

The logic that the casual should look elsewhere is flawed and I garauntee you not an argument Sony or PD will put much weight behind considering casual gamers money is just as green as yours or mine.

As for rewind cheating someone ot of the experience:

First off, if someone wants to cheat themselves out of it, how does that effect you or me? Game Genie allowed thousands (millions?) to cheat themselves out of tons of games, did that damage your or my enjoyment at all of those same games?

Secondly have you considered that those who will be using rewind will likely be the ones who otherwise would give up on GT all together due to frustation? So essentially how does one cheat themselves out of an exerience they weren't going to have in the first place?

Again all the "against" arguments so far have been either an elitest point of view (MY game is so awesome those pions don't desserve in if they can't be as good as my and struggle as hard as I did" or based on flawed or half assumptions (ie rewind will only be abused ad infinitum and won't be a learning tool).

People seem way too overconcerned with pinning their beliefs and feelings about GT on the rest of the world. Here's something to think about:

Maybe other gamers don't need you protection... maybe they can decide for themselve if something ruins the game or if they prefer it that way. Maybe their skill set and enjoyment isn't taken the same way yours is...

I don't care that my great grandfather had to walk uphill 4 miles in the snow to school both ways every day always and that's what made him a man... I will go ahead and choose not to and you know what? I am just fine with it.

So why does the way we all ground our way through previous GTs mean anything about how others in the future should have ther experiences controlled?

Again, if it doens't effect you, and you have an easy option to ignore/not use it, what exactly legitimate reason could you have to want it out?

Becuase "it's cheating"? OK let's say it is... so what then? If I play basketball and count baskets I didn't make as points, but I can only do that by myself and not when playing with others how does that hurt you? What if I play golf and write down the wrong score every hole? If I am just playing by myself it makes no difference.

Cheating is only a valid argument if in some way someone can cheat YOU. Otherwise "cheating" is nothing more than playing by whatever rules make YOU happy.

Even if every person who in't good at GT only used rewind to blast through career mode, how exactly would that effect you? It wouldn't.

Does hitting a baseball off a T have the same satisfaction as hitting a 100mph fastball from a majorleague pitcher? No. But the two aren't mutually exclusive and one can be the foundation for the other. Just like rewind.



Rewind can be used for multiple corners end to end... if you have some esses you can practice them all or any given part as you see fit. If a player is interested in learning, rewind can accomodate any section of track, if they aren't interested in learning, they weren't going to go learning another way (as if someone who isn't going to bother learning via an easy to access rewind button will somehow be intersted and studius enough to go into a full on practice mode? ).

I can't see how people can any fun in hitting a baseball off a T but little kids have a ball doing it all the time. Just because people at your and my level don't enjoy it doesn't mean someone else won't.

It's like take back a move in chess. Good chess players probably scoff at it, but I am not good at chess, and if it wasn't for undo on my compute chess game, I wouldn't bother playing. Knowing I can take back a move if I screw up lets me relax while I play and I have definitely gotten better over time even with take back a move at my finger tips. In the beginning I took back any move that lost me a piece, that got mundane fast so I started using take back a move less and less. Finally I got good enough that I could put up a good fight. As it is sometimes I can win a game without taking back any moves, and sometimes I still take back a move or two when things get bad and learn from those mistakes. I don't have to play a whole game to see the value of a move, and yes chess is a game of fluidity where a string of move is more important than a single move.

So just accept what i've been saying all along and make it an arcade mode only feature :rolleyes:

Then the casual racers can have fun and practice using rewind, against other racers.
 
This learning curve is best overcome by many hours of practice, and not many hours of rewinding.

Rewinding, in my opinion, cheats the casual out of a real experience. There is so much more enjoyment in accomplishing something the right, pure way. If a casual rewinds his way through a race he's only cheated himself.

Says who? You can't say, you can't speak for everyone. Rewinding can be as good as better than the old fashioned way. It's more flexible, and has advantages like consistency and greater repetition.

And again, the experience is best only when a game is played your way I see, even if someone else is different, which people tend to be. I assume I cheated myself out of an experience when I used gameshark to start Ace Combat 4 with every jet, even though I enjoyed it more than all the following AC games that I did the more boring "correct" way.

But what's stopping me from saying you're doing it the wrong way anyway? In fact, I will. You're cheating yourself because you're wasting your time crawling through GT with no money instead of starting off with F1 cars and doing whatever. We've both just put out conflicting statements, who is right?


So just accept what i've been saying all along and make it an arcade mode only feature :rolleyes:

Then the casual racers can have fun and practice using rewind, against other racers.

Well quite honestly, there's no reason to keep it out of career mode as it could represent your race team's high tech sim. It's just like having a dyno in the game.

But to satisfy all the hardcore "playing in a way that I don't is cheating" people rewind could be disabled for career mode races, but usable in certain practice sessions.


As for Practice sections, go ahead and add it. It would be a great tool and work well with rewind.
 
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Well quite honestly, there's no reason to keep it out of career mode as it could represent your race team's high tech sim. It's just like having a dyno in the game.

But to satisfy all the hardcore "playing in a way that I don't is cheating" people rewind could be disabled for career mode races, but usable in certain practice sessions.


As for Practice sessions, go a head and it. It would be a great tool and work well with rewind.

In any race event with a monetary prize (or a car), rewind should be disabled. Arcade mode, practices, test runs (but not online ranked time trials) are all fine with rewind.

Basically anything that contributes to game completion, should not have rewind.
 
In any race event with a monetary prize (or a car), rewind should be disabled. Arcade mode, practices, test runs (but not online ranked time trials) are all fine with rewind.

Basically anything that contributes to game completion, should not have rewind.

I cannot believe how badly I butchered my last sentence in my last post.

Anyway, that's fine. If rewind is added, all it needs to do to have a point is the availability to be used for practice. But I'm curious as to why game completion matters so much when it is an individual accomplishment. It could lead to an interesting psychological thread.
 
I cannot believe how badly I butchered my last sentence in my last post.

Anyway, that's fine. If rewind is added, all it needs to do to have a point is the availability to be used for practice. But I'm curious as to why game completion matters so much when it is an individual accomplishment. It could lead to an interesting psychological thread.

Its supposed to be a challenge to complete a game. I've made mistakes playing games in the past causing me to redo the entire game to reach 100% completion. In this game you only have to re-do the race if you go wrong, its not too much to ask, rewind should not be used as a tool to make things easier. It should be used for practicing.

This thread isn't about rewind though. I think either option is good for practicing, as long as it is just that, for practice, not for winning races.
 
So just accept what i've been saying all along and make it an arcade mode only feature :rolleyes:

Then the casual racers can have fun and practice using rewind, against other racers.

How would you use it against other racers? Rewind is pretty much a single player only thing just based on the nature of how it works...

As for arcade mode only, sure you could, but as far as making it more approachable and more accessible as an educational tool it's better to streamline it into the career system. As I said before, casual gamers don't tend to want to go into a practice mode (ie most casual gamers probably don't want to go into license mode if they don't have to), putting rewind only in arcade basically makes arcade the practice mode, you must choose between career and practice. Why not leave practicing as a streamline part of the main game?

I mean if it's in arcade, it's in the game, so we already get past the part where putting it in at all is blasphemous and you still have the option of doing career without rewind (hopefully again, there is some kind of marker if you use rewind) so nothing is lost.

Its supposed to be a challenge to complete a game. I've made mistakes playing games in the past causing me to redo the entire game to reach 100% completion. In this game you only have to re-do the race if you go wrong, its not too much to ask, rewind should not be used as a tool to make things easier. It should be used for practicing.

This thread isn't about rewind though. I think either option is good for practicing, as long as it is just that, for practice, not for winning races.

There is still a challenge to beating the game, one challenge is to beat the game using rewind, and another is to beat the game not using rewind. It wouldn't hurt to have a marker for if you did it without using rewind, but really what does it matter?

The person who will get the satisfaction out of beating the game can choose what level of challenge, and thus satisfaction they want.

Think about games with multiple difficulty levels, does the fact that their is an easy level take away your satisfaction from beating it on hard? Does someone else beating it on easy make you feel less accomplished beating it on hard?

No right?

So why does it make any difference to you if someone else beats the game with a handicap turned on?

That's what I don't get, so many people are getting riled up over what it will take away from the game... well it doesn't take anything away from you, the challenge of beating it without rewind is still there for you, and how does anyone elses expereince effect you?

People are treating this as some kind of merit badge or medal of honor... what does how someone else play the game effect you?

I mean if it was like a college degree or something where your salary depends on it, and suddenly people can get the same degree by mail order and thus you can't justify your pay scale anymore with it, ok I get it, that effects you.

This is a game, a game in which you don't get anything but personal satisfaction from beating it, you can't loose anything if someone else has an easier time, so why does it matter?

Are you going to get a pay raise because you say you beat GT but suddenly no more because your boss willl say "well you might have used rewind"? Are girls who were going to go out with you because you beat GT suddenly going to say "whatever, how do I know you didn't use rewind"? What exactly is going to happen to you negatively if someone else can use rewind in their own home alone? Of what value exactly was beating GT without rewind that will no longer exist if rewind comes into play? The only thing I ever got out of beating a game was the self satisfaction of doing it, and that is still entirely available to me.
 
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How would you use it against other racers? Rewind is pretty much a single player only thing just based on the nature of how it works...

As for arcade mode only, sure you could, but as far as making it more approachable and more accessible as an educational tool it's better to streamline it into the career system. As I said before, casual gamers don't tend to want to go into a practice mode (ie most casual gamers probably don't want to go into license mode if they don't have to), putting rewind only in arcade basically makes arcade the practice mode, you must choose between career and practice. Why not leave practicing as a streamline part of the main game?

I mean if it's in arcade, it's in the game, so we already get past the part where putting it in at all is blasphemous and you still have the option of doing career without rewind (hopefully again, there is some kind of marker if you use rewind) so nothing is lost.



There is still a challenge to beating the game, one challenge is to beat the game using rewind, and another is to beat the game not using rewind. It wouldn't hurt to have a marker for if you did it without using rewind, but really what does it matter?

The person who will get the satisfaction out of beating the game can choose what level of challenge, and thus satisfaction they want.

Think about games with multiple difficulty levels, does the fact that their is an easy level take away your satisfaction from beating it on hard? Does someone else beating it on easy make you feel less accomplished beating it on hard?

No right?

So why does it make any difference to you if someone else beats the game with a handicap turned on?

That's what I don't get, so many people are getting riled up over what it will take away from the game... well it doesn't take anything away from you, the challenge of beating it without rewind is still there for you, and how does anyone elses expereince effect you?

People are treating this as some kind of merit badge or medal of honor... what does how someone else play the game effect you?

I mean if it was like a college degree or something where your salary depends on it, and suddenly people can get the same degree by mail order and thus you can't justify your pay scale anymore with it, ok I get it, that effects you.

This is a game, a game in which you don't get anything but personal satisfaction from beating it, you can't loose anything if someone else has an easier time, so why does it matter?

Are you going to get a pay raise because you say you beat GT but suddenly no more because your boss willl say "well you might have used rewind"? Are girls who were going to go out with you because you beat GT suddenly going to say "whatever, how do I know you didn't use rewind"? What exactly is going to happen to you negatively if someone else can use rewind in their own home alone? Of what value exactly was beating GT without rewind that will no longer exist if rewind comes into play? The only thing I ever got out of beating a game was the self satisfaction of doing it, and that is still entirely available to me.
Rewind is unrealistic.

No one wants to hear more on it, stop trolling.
 
Rewind is unrealistic.

No one wants to hear more on it, stop trolling.

Congratulations on running out of points to try and pretend are logical and rational.

I didn't say rewind was realistic, I said it had positive potential and the fear based assumptions and generalizations are flawed.

I don't doubt no one wants to hear more about it, I already laid it out to about it's finest level of detail already for you.
 
Lets look at possible uses of rewind

- Someone brakes too late in a corner, misses it. They rewind
- Solution already in GT: colored racing line that tells you when to brake

- Someone wants to practice a turn or section of the track without running the entire track so they use rewind
- Solution already in GT: None. But a sector trainer as seen in GTR2 would be a better solution here as it is more precise and less cumbersome then rewind and gives you better feedback, including your time through a sector.

- Someone trys to pass an AI car and crashes so they rewind
- Solution already in GT: Many license tests and challenges that ask you to pass cars cleanly

THE POINT

Gran Turismo is a simulator

If your not willing to learn how to race properly and you want rewind to baby-sit you through the experience then Gran Turismo is not for you.

Gran Turismo already has MORE THEN ENOUGH assists to help you get better at car racing. A gimmicky feature like rewind is not needed.

Rewind is really saying "screw trying to learn how to do it right, with rewind there is no need to practice or try to hone your skills, you can jump in and go racing without having to worry about the consequences."

Is that what Gran Turismo should be saying to casuals and first time racers?
 
Lets look at possible uses of rewind

- Someone brakes too late in a corner, misses it. They rewind
- Solution already in GT: colored racing line that tells you when to brake

So since the invention of the racing line no one has had problems with cornering anymore?

- Someone wants to practice a turn or section of the track without running the entire track so they use rewind
- Solution already in GT: None. But a sector trainer as seen in GTR2 would be a better solution here as it is more precise and less cumbersome then rewind and gives you better feedback, including your time through a sector.

It's more precise to pick from an overhead map that coudl only have a resolution of tens of feet (I mean one pixel on the ring has got to be yards) and then either getting a preset starting location and speed that MIGHT be indicative of a real racing situation than it is to rewind down to the frame you want to start from and KNOW it's a real racing situation you are practicing?

- Someone trys to pass an AI car and crashes so they rewind
- Solution already in GT: Many license tests and challenges that ask you to pass cars cleanly

Yes and in those canned instances you can improve... but there are infinite instances in real races and you can't simulate them all... but with rewind you can practice any one you come up against.

THE POINT

Gran Turismo is a simulator

If your not willing to learn how to race properly and you want rewind to baby-sit you through the experience then Gran Turismo is not for you.

Gran Turismo already has MORE THEN ENOUGH assists to help you get better at car racing. A gimmicky feature like rewind is not needed.

Rewind is really saying "screw trying to learn how to do it right, with rewind there is no need to practice or try to hone your skills, you can jump in and go racing without having to worry about the consequences."

Is that what Gran Turismo should be saying to casuals and first time racers?

Point:

Grand Tourismo is somewhat a simulator and is no where near the cream of the crop regardless of what is put on the lable.

Rewind is a tool that can aid in learning, that is unless you don't believe that trial and error and repeating an problem area is a legitimate way to learn.

If GT really did have more than enough assists, no one would be a bad racer anymore. Quite clearly that is not the case.

Maybe that's what rewind is saying to YOU (and I have brought up the freudian aspects of this before) but that's not necessarily what it says to everyone.

It's been detailed many times over how rewind can be a useful and legitimate tool, whether people choose to use it or abuse it is beyond predicting, but the only thing you can be reasonably certain of is that not everyone will be in the abuse group. And those that do abuse it, how exactly does that effect you again?

I already covered basically your whole post in the other thread, noteably here (including what rewind says to casuals) :

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3597634&postcount=1226

Maybe it's saying that to YOU, and maybe some others will take it like that. But what it's saying to ME is "hey casual driver who hates GT because it's so frustratingly hard, we hear ya and we have put something in so you can enjoy this great game as much as the other guys. Now you have some recourse for your mistakes, use it how you like. If you think its fun to rewind like crap and do crazy things just to rewind out of them, have a ball, it's your $60! But if you want to get better but just couldn't get over the hump before, here's a great way for you to work at it, use this tool to get your feet on the ground and then when you feel comfortable, take the training wheels off and see where you can go from there!"

And yet AGAIN, rewind is not the ONLY tool and if it overlaps with where other learnings already cover, great! More ways to learn something means it's more likely that any particular person will find a tool that works best for them.

BTW here are a few uses for rewind that are outside the learning realm even:

Someone walks in front of the TV during a tricky turn.

Your batteries die during a turn.

Your cat steps on the remote and your TV switches inputs.

These are all things that are detrimental to the sim and thus having a tool to undo them solves a problem even for skilled players.
 
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