Practice Tracks in Sections in GT5 thread of apples being orange rewindists

[vaioleto]

Call GT5 a sim, they argue its not, call GT5 a game and it can be as unrealistic as you want. They are right in their own mind, we must stop trying to convince them.

I'm just trying to get them to stop arguing about it in this thread... so help me... annoying people are annoying.

To summarize my view:
1. Rewind/sector practice can be a useful tool to help people (including myself) learn how to drive better.
2. While BOTH are unrealistic, NEITHER are unsimlike.
3. Sector practice is in most respects a subset of rewind. Almost anything that you can do with sector practice you can do with rewind.

Sector practicing is what they actually do in real life and rewind isn't. We're talking about a game that wants to be realistic.

1. You would not be allowed, GT is not a sim according to you.
2. Time is not at 1X speed, GT is not a sim according to you.
3. Rewind is not overly tedious, and neither you nor I can say it does not fit or does fit within GT, that is opinion.
4. It would be for your copy, as you can't redo a race in 5 seconds, so you think GT is not a sim.

These are all creative liberties that PD can take within the confines of realism. Reversing time itself isn't, breaks the illusion.

Because GT is not 100% realistic in some aspects, thus it can be completely unrealistic in other aspects as well. Cool fallacy bro.

Yes practice sessions would ALSO save time in some cases. Rewind would save time in some cases.

Even comparatively, rewind saves time over practice sessions as you don't have to exit a race and go into an entirely different section of the game to use it, and you don't have to set up a start and end point. With rewind, at any time you just go ahead and do it and you are ready to go. Custom practice section any track you want at any time straight from career or hot lap mode.

The whole point of practice sections is to better utilize time on longer tracks.

Seems silly that PD would go so far to implement full damage to further advance their goal of ultimate realism and then add a feature that rewinds time, when there is another alternative that does it much more realistically.

 

[Bogie 19th]

License tests are a really good way to familiarize yourself with a corner or a section. A practice mode would be like a license test, but for every corner/section in the game.

It would be cool if you could choose one section in a track to practice, and it restarts as you get to the end of the section, so you keep doing it till you perfect it. For those that play an instrument, this is very similar. If you're having trouble with one section of a piano piece, you just play that section by itself over and over again until you can get it up to the same tempo as the rest of the piece. So... what do you think?

I agree, that would be pretty tight. I would like to see some areas where you can keep doing that over and over, and get some AI on the track and learn some drafting techniques for specific areas of the ribbon as well.

 

[Zathra5_]

Sector practicing is what they actually do in real life and rewind isn't. We're talking about a game that wants to be realistic.

So they do a sector then are teleported back to the beginning of the sector? I didn't know that was possible. Thanks.

 

[Bogie 19th]

So they do a sector then are teleported back to the beginning of the sector? I didn't know that was possible. Thanks.

I actually pack up my game consoles and TV and drive them down to my local track and set it up on the start/finish line before I play. It's nice having my track gear on during the winter too. It's flippin cold out there.

 

[vaioleto]

So they do a sector then are teleported back to the beginning of the sector? I didn't know that was possible. Thanks.

Restart = you driving back to the start of the section. It's not teleporting. Your sarcasm needs work.

 

[Zathra5_]

Restart = you driving back to the start of the section. It's not teleporting. Your sarcasm needs work.

Well then rewind can be viewed as just going forward in time until you are in the same spot as you were on the last lap.

 

[vaioleto]

Well then rewind can be viewed as just going forward in time until you are in the same spot as you were on the last lap.

Rewind: reversing the direction of a roll of recording tape or various kinds of film.

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/rewind/en-en/

 

[Zathra5_]

So we call it fastforward instead of rewind, then you'd be happy?

 

[vaioleto]

So we call it fastforward instead of rewind, then you'd be happy?

So you admit that rewinding is unrealistic and are trying to justify how rewind can be seen as somewhat realistic.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Restart and rewind are unrealistic.

 

[Zathra5_]

So you admit that rewinding is unrealistic and are trying to justify how rewind can be seen as somewhat realistic.

If you read my post you will see that I said both are unrealistic which they are. I find your attempt to make sector practicing sound realistic amusing. At the heart of it they are both teleporting from one position to another position which just happened to occur in the past. For either you can say that they are actually happening in the future. It is really a nonconsequential argument since neither makes the game any less of a sim.

 

[vaioleto]

If you read my post you will see that I said both are unrealistic which they are. I find your attempt to make sector practicing sound realistic amusing. At the heart of it they are both teleporting from one position to another position which just happened to occur in the past. For either you can say that they are actually happening in the future. It is really a nonconsequential argument since neither makes the game any less of a sim.

Restart taking care of you driving back to the start of the section is a lot more realistic than going backwards through time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmaGgf6Atzo

 

[Zathra5_]

Restart taking care of you driving back to the start of the section is a lot more realistic than going backwards through time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmaGgf6Atzo

Like I said, you can imagine rewind is actually going forward in time. Still doesn't change the fact the neither is realistic.

 

[vaioleto]

Like I said, you can imagine rewind is actually going forward in time. Still doesn't change the fact the neither is realistic.

One is believable without the need to imagine anything.

edit: \/ annnd... on the ignore list you go.

 

[Zathra5_]

teleporting is believable?

 

[Devedander]

I have actually used the piano example before with rewind.

Look at it like this, which is better - You are practicing a piece, you get to a spot with trouble do you:

A: Put away your piece, get out your training book, find a passage that's as close as possible to the passage you were having trouble with, practice that, get a feel for it, then put that away, go back to the piece you were playing, and try to apply what you have learned.

B: Get to the difficult spot, just go back to exactly where the difficulty starts or any note anywhere you feel apprpriate, practice EXACTLY the part you are having the problem with until you get it right, move on.

Rewind vs practice section.

As for reaslistic, come on, it's GAME. It may say simulator, but it's a game, and the REAL simulators actually usually do have rewind abiltiy in them so that kind of all goes out the window no matter how you look at it.

 

[vaioleto]

I have actually used the piano example before with rewind.

Look at it like this, which is better - You are practicing a piece, you get to a spot with trouble do you:

A: Put away your piece, get out your training book, find a passage that's as close as possible to the passage you were having trouble with, practice that, get a feel for it, then put that away, go back to the piece you were playing, and try to apply what you have learned.

B: Get to the difficult spot, figure exactly where the difficulty occurs, just go back to the begining of the difficult part, practice EXACTLY the part you are having the problem with until you get it right, move on.

Rewind vs practice section.

As for reaslistic, come on, it's GAME. It may say simulator, but it's a game, and the REAL simulators actually usually do have rewind abiltiy in them so that kind of all goes out the window.

The difficulty you have in taking a corner are generally because you didn't set it up correctly. If your fingering is incorrect in the part before the part where you're having trouble with, you'll still have trouble. Both PD and the fans wants them to stick to the moniker of the real driving simulator as closely as possible without being overly tedious about it.

 

[Devedander]

The difficulty you have in taking a corner are generally because you didn't set it up correctly. If your fingering is incorrect in the part before the part where you're having trouble with, you'll still have trouble. Both PD and the fans wants them to stick to the moniker of the real driving simulator as closely as possible without being overly tedious about it.

So you are totally changing the point here after I just used your own analogy to show where rewind is better than practice.

But even so, you are saying generally this and generally that which may be true in your case, but it doesn't necessarily cary over to the general public. I know for a fact the problem I see most with my friends who aren't too good are that they enter turns too fast. And I would even bet that learning correct braking timing is the most common cause of poor drivers in GT as they come from arcady games where braking IN the corner is perfectly fine vs before the corner.

I detailed this before with how it woudl let you try different speeds entering under the same conditions and let you try multiple braking markers easily in a real racing environment. It wuold even let you try long stretches (any length you want) dynamically, no setting anything up, no finding a preset that's as close as it can be.

And as such rewind lets you try a corner again and again until you have it down, whatever it is you try differently, you can just keep trying it until you find out what works.

Even better is what if you are trying to overtake a certain car in a certain condition on a certain track? This is not something you can setup in a practice mode by the nature of how dynamic racing is. So if it's passing one car on a hairpin in New York or getting through a wad of cars on the corkscrew at LS... anything can be practiced as soon as you figure out that you want to practice it.

What PD wants is beyond what I can know, but I can't really accept that you can just speak for all of GTs fans like that.

People need to stop thinking about how THEY would use rewind or how it would work for YOU as you are probably skilled enough rewind offers no real learning tools for you, but think about it from a lesser skilled users point of view and how it could help THEM.

 

[vaioleto]

So you are totally changing the point here after I just used your own analogy to show where rewind is better than practice.

But even so, you are saying generally this and generally that which may be true in your case, but it doesn't necessarily cary over to the general public. I know for a fact the problem I see most with my friends who aren't too good are that they enter turns too fast. And I would even bet that learning correct braking timing is the most common cause of poor drivers in GT as they come from arcady games where braking IN the corner is perfectly fine vs before the corner.

And as such rewind lets you try a corner again and again until you have it down, whatever it is you try differently, you can just keep trying it until you find out what works.

What PD wants is beyond what I can know, but I can't really accept that you can just speak for all of GTs fans like that.

People need to stop thinking about how THEY would use rewind or how it would work for YOU as you are probably skilled enough rewind offers no real learning tools for you, but think about it from a lesser skilled users point of view and how it could help THEM.

License tests have been teaching people how to take corners and overtake in all kinds of conditions since forever. My analogy refers to how both racing and piano playing has a rhythm and just learning a single pitch won't do you any good, everything will still sound disjointed.

 

[Devedander]

License tests have been teaching people how to take corners and overtake in all kinds of conditions since forever. My analogy refers to how both racing and piano playing has a rhythm and just learning a single pitch won't do you any good, everything will still sound disjointed.

And I agree with your fundamental statement about rythm, however I don't think you see how rewind is even better at your fundamental statement than practice sectiosn is.

1: License tests, these are a god learning tool and if you work well with that kind of structured learning, these will be great for you. But they aren't the best for everyone, some people learn better by just doing rather than being taught (some people do well in school and classes, and some people suck at classes but learn how to rebuild an entire engine in a summer in their garage by just trying).

License tests teach you buy giving you canned examples of certain events, this is great but there are infinite things that can effect you during a real race and license tests cannot cover all those things. This is like booksmarts versus real experience smarts.

I am not saying take out license test but I am saying that rewind offers a different approach to learning that license tests don't.

2: Rythm is indeed part of it but that's exactly why rewind is better than sections.

With section you either have to build every possible combination of sections as presets (becuase if you only have one curve at a time you are doing exactly what you say is bad), or you have to choose them off an overhead map or something and build your own sections. Again we run into the accuracy of how close you can build your own section and the fact that it won't mimic the conditions you were in when you had the problem unelss you want to painstakingly setup where your car is positioned, entry speed, opponent cars, damage level, etc.

This is all ignoring you have to leave the race environment that you were just in, leave the corner you just had the problem with while it's all fresh in your mind and go into another section to find or make what you want to practice.

With rewind you can choose any section of any track including back to back turns (remember rewind is not limited to just the one turn) and you can practice it from exactly the frame you choose in a real race condition, the exact condition you are having problems with easily and without even having to leave the race.

Rythm is not something that rewind DOESN'T let you practice, so the rythm argument is out and in fact works against section practice.

 

[vaioleto]

And I agree with your fundamental statement, however I don't think you see how rewind is even better at your fundamental statement than practice sectiosn is.

1: License tests, these are a god learning tool and if you work well with that kind of structured learning, these will be great for you. But they aren't the best for everyone, some people learn better by just doing rather than being taught (some people do well in school and classes, and some people suck at classes but learn how to rebuild an entire engine in a summer in their garage by just trying).

I am not saying take out license test but I am saying that rewind offers a different approach to learning that license tests don't.

2: Rythm is indeed part of it but that's exactly why rewind is better than sections.

With section you either have to build every possible combination of sections as presets (becuase if you only have one curve at a time you are doing exactly what you say is bad), or you have to choose them off an overhead map or something and build your own sections. Again we run into the accuracy of how close you can build your own section and the fact that it won't mimic the conditions you were in when you had the problem unelss you want to painstakingly setup where your car is positioned, entry speed, opponent cars, damage level, etc.

This is all ignoring you have to leave the race environment that you were just in, leave the corner you just had the problem with while it's all fresh in your mind and go into another section to find or make what you want to practice.

With rewind you can choose any section of any track including back to back turns (remember rewind is not limited to just the one turn) and you can practice it from exactly the frame you choose in a real race condition, the exact condition you are having problems with easily and without even having to leave the race.

Rythm is not something that rewind DOESN'T let you practice, so the rythm argument is out and in fact works against section practice.

All this can be solved by practicing a track thoroughly before your rush in to race on a track you barely know. The reason why grid and Forza has rewind is not because you can use it to practice, but because you can dick around and still come out in first place.

 

[Bogie 19th]

But because you can dick around and still come out in first place.

Just wow.

 

[Devedander]

All this can be solved by practicing a track thoroughly before your rush in to race on a track you barely know. The reason why grid and Forza has rewind is not because you can use it to practice, but because you can dick around and still come out in first place.

And full circle... yes you can just use what's already there to learn, but that doesn't mean people do, that doesn't mean people want to and that doesn't mean people won't appreciate having yet another tool to use to help them.

You keep moving the target, every time you get yoru argument picke apart, you choose something else and they are getting weaker and weaker.

And as for Forza and Grid only having it so you can "dick around"... that might be your opinion but there is no way you can state that as fact. So again, you are now at such a weak status in arguments you are making up stuff for an opinion and trying to use that as an argument.

It's getting pretty pathetic here vaioleto... might want to just quit now...

 

[vaioleto]

And full circle... yes you can just use what's already there to learn, but that doesn't mean people do, that doesn't mean people want to and that doesn't mean people won't appreciate having yet another tool to use to help them.

You keep moving the target, every time you get yoru argument picke apart, you choose something else and they are getting weaker and weaker.

And as for Forza and Grid only having it so you can "dick around"... that might be your opinion but there is no way you can state that as fact. So again, you are now at such a weak status in arguments you are making up stuff for an opinion and trying to use that as an argument.

It's getting pretty pathetic here vaioleto... might want to just quit now...

So I take it that you have nothing left to say? Good, now we can get back to talking about the thread topic. 👍

 

[evilfoxhound]

 

[Devedander]

So I take it that you have nothing left to say? Good, now we can get back to talking about the thread topic. 👍

If you mean nothing I haven't already said that invalidates what you keep saying regardless of it being incorrect? Sure we can go with that.

 

[vaioleto]

If you mean nothing I haven't already said that invalidates what you keep saying regardless of it being incorrect? Sure we can go with that.

Sure, if believing that helps you sleep at night.

So awesome.

 

[Earth]

Not obvious enough I guess as tha'ts not what I was doing. I was pointing out that defending GTs status as a "simulator" as a reason to leave something out is flawed as it's already pretty far from a simulator.

Theres no such thing as a perfect simulator. Even the most die hard sims, whether it be car racing or airplane flying have very unrealistic sides to them.

As I have said many times, a baseball T won't make you a major league ball player, but it can very much be the first step.

And a baseball T is almost useless in training someone how to hit a moving ball thrown by a pitcher in real time. Its just like rewind. Sure, if they make a mistake trying to pass a car they can rewind and do it right, but thats only one of millions of possible mistakes. The best way to learn how to hit a ball is to start taking real pitches. The best way to learn how to not make a mistake in a driving simulator is to practice practice practice, learn the limits of your car and your own driving, because your going to make alot and I mean alot of different individual mistakes and the best way to fix these is not to rewind but to learn how to avoid them all together.

I don't know why you keep trying to prove that rewind won't be the make or break difference to being a great driver when I never said it would.

And if rewind is not serious about helping to make a great driver why include it in Gran Turismo?

Unless I missesd something about rewind, it doesn't instantly correct their mistakes for them.

It gives people the ability to instantly learn from their mistakes, while it's still fresh in their mind... see my previous analogy of math questions, trying again immediately vs trying again tomorrow.

The question people who make mistakes should be asking themselves is why did I make the mistake in the first place?

If they ran into a car going into a corner they may just say "I braked too late." and then they rewind, and brake earlier.

Was braking too late the only mistake? Thats what rewind teaches them. The truth is he most likely was also over aggressive. He was probably careless too by getting into the corner so deep, risking contact and damage. But rewind teaches him that he just braked too late. Now that he can instantly rewind and just brake a little earlier he does not learn patience nor is he punished. He faces no consequences.

Well if I can restart a race, it's just a game, and it doesn't matter to anyone but me what I do, why wouldn't I be wreckless if I want to? It's not like without rewind people aren't already wreckless a lot.

Alot of people were wreckless in previous Gran Turismos because of no damage. Adding damage, in the long run, will make better drivers. Rewind, in the long run, does not make a better driver.

And I don't agree it will just make people wreckless (I know for a fact I never got wreckless in GRID even though I had rewind). People who want to be wreckless may use rewind to get more enjoyment out of their being wreckless but those who want to learn will use it as a learning tool.

As a learning tool its about as helpful as training wheels. Lets get past the kiddie stage and get into big boy racing. No baby-sitting here. The master thinks differently then Dan Greenawalt. Greenawalt designs his games so that people who have no real interest in learning how to drive the cars properly can still find some enjoyment in Forza.

The master is different. He wants people to learn about cars and how to drive them correctly. His views do not reflect your own.

The important part of your comment is "if he wishes". If someone wants to be wreckless, they will be, if that's the kind of gamer you are, then that's how you are. As I said before, having rewind doens't make you do anything, being the kind of person to do it makes you do it.

Again, the master wants people to learn how to driver properly. There is no room in Gran Turismo for a casual gimmicky feature like rewind. That is his choice and the majority of Gran Turismo fans, who think in line with the master agree.

GT has not had damage since GT 2. There are plenty of people who take their driving seriously all the same and try with every ounce of their ability to race clean even without damage.

Thats true. The master wants EVERYONE to take their driving serious all the time. He wants EVERYONE to learn how to race properly. Rewind is saying you don't have to. Again, the master and the majority of Gran Turismo fans think just like the master.

All your story proves is that in some circumstance somethings happen. It doens't mean it always will and it isn't even really analogus to a learning too.

It shows human nature. They kept screwing around causing large crashes and caution flags because they knew they wouldn't tear up any cars. Alot of people, if they know they can get away with it, will do alot of things.

Some of my friends restart if they mess up anything on the first lap, maybe even the first two laps. Restart lets them do that. I think it's ridiculous to do that but whatever. The point being, just becuase you can use something to an extreme doesn't mean everyone will.

Gran Turismo championship races do not have restarts. Obviously the master thinks you should pay and learn from your mistakes. If the master does not allow you to restart in championship races, would something like rewind, which lets you rewind any mistake you have fall in line with his thinking? No. It doesnt fall in line with the thinking of the majority of GT fans as well as shown by the polls.

There are still consequences, in fact I think rewind is a consequence in and of itself. Once the excitement and eye candy factor wears off, rewind is just as annoying as restarting a race. The consequence of making mistakes is that you still don't finish the race until you have improved enough to not make that mistake.

Which is why rewind is useless. It's like training wheels. After a few days the rider will realize how useless they are in learning how to ride a bike and they will ditch the wheels. Same thing will happen with rewind, so why include a useless feature that the majority do not want?

A common trend I see is that an argument against rewind keeps infering that somehow rewind magically makes mistakes a thing of the pasts... rewind lets you go back and try again, but you have to try, and if you don't try and don't get better, rewind or not, you will never get through that corner.

It doesn't stop mistakes, no. That's the problem. Practicing and learning the hardway is a better way to learn how to not make the mistake in the first place, not rewind. To someone very near sighted rewind may sound like a great feature. But to those who see it for what it truly is and it's long term effects do not like it.

So unless someone just likes rewinding and crashing the same situation over and over, then by default rewind will help them get better, because getting better is the only way to move on, even with rewind.

The master and me are worried about the long term welfare of new drivers. Rewind does little for the long term, may induce bad driving habits, and does not teach discipline so therefore is not needed

That may be how you feel, that may be what works for you and how you would do it if you were, say, someones teacher. But that's just an opinion. For some people, rewind will not be the best tool, but for some it may well be.

Look at this man. Do you think he thinks rewind is a good tool for Gran Turismo?

The master? Really? There is some God complex going on here

I've noticed alot of your posts have anti-God and anti-bible context in them. Yes, we do live in a secular society and you can get away with that, but lets leave the cheapshots out of this.

But anyhow, we already have lower difficulty levels and standard physics... GTPSP (made by PD and KY and is a GT game) caters very much to those of lower skill and does not in any way force them to drive better.

Standard physics is a compromise, and a big enough of a compromise. It makes it easier to drive but is in no way comparable to rewind.

Rewind = Training wheels on a bicycle.

Standard physics = wider tires on a bicycle

And again, it doesn't tell people that, it tells you that maybe, it tells some people that maybe, but you just need to stop assuming that the message you read into it, or the worst case scenario is something you can assume across the board as a rule. It's just not.

Didn't you earlier say rewind says its OK if they want to screw around, it's their $60?

Its a simulation. It's not OK to screw around.

And I bet you missed the post where my friend struggled with two corners in GRID for over half an hour, then nailed them both using rewind to help practice in a few minutes.

Thus the name of this thread

"Practice Sectors"

I am not saying there aren't people who cand and do learn without rewind, I am just saying there are some who will.

Some people need training wheels to get over their fear of falling off a bike, some people just get on and go. Some people need the support to make it less daunting to start, some people scoff at it and prefer to do it the hard way. Neither is something you can just say applies to people across the board.

Learning how to ride a bike without training wheels may be the hard way but its the right way and will help you learn faster and better then rewind or training wheels ever will.

I know people who hopped on a bike, never fell off, and were doing jumps in under half an hour. I know people who tried with training wheels for weeks or months and are still shaky riders today. The fact that one type exists does not preclude the other.

Then looks like they don't have the natural talent. Should there be different rules in football for those who are too slow, or who cant catch, or cant throw? Maybe give them 6 downs instead of 4, or say you only need 5 yards for a first down instead of 10? Rules are the same for everyone. If you can't keep up then its not the right thing for you. You being someone who probably believes in "survival of the fittest" I find it odd that you care so much about the 'weak' and lesser of us.

The irony is that in most simulators that really are to teach people things (flight training sims, naval boat sims, polic training sims) they DO have rewind for exactly the reason that it does help teach people.

I dont think they have rewind, but rather "sector trainers", or in the case of my time spent with Flight Simulator '98, 2002, and 2004 you get to have missions, or in GT's case "license tests", that start you on approach to an airport and you get to keep trying until you get it right. There is no rewind to back up 10 or 15 seconds before landing. You mess up you restart 5 miles out from the airport or in a holding pattern around the airport.

What is with this master thing?

And what is with people who assume:

A: they know what KY thinks and how he works inside

B: that KY is incapable of changing?

GT has continually added things to help lower skille drivers along. As I pointed out before, why should we not offer all the tools we can so we reach out to the widest audience? The marketing aspect is obvious and it every person who does get better from using rewind is one less person being totally crappy ruining online races for the rest of us.

We know how he thinks because we can see his inner workings through his child, Gran Turismo.

If you have seen and played Gran Turismo, you have seen the master.

There is the audience who loves Burnout and doesnt care crap about driving properly or anything like that.

Should GT try and reach out to them? Some people are just hopeless. You think the master should add whacked out features to try and appeal to every single person. Most, including the master will disagree.

I didn't say PD should put in rewind just for these, I just said rewind has a potential benefit for lower skilled as well as higher skilled players.

And these are not one in a million... I have experienced all those examples personally many times, and as is expected with such things, it seems they always happen at the most inopportune (read: Frustrating) times. I would have loved a rewind button when those things happened to me.

I haven't experienced them any time, and I'm sure others haven't as well.

First off I never said it was industry changing or revolutionizing (it seems to make arguments against rewind you have to keep making exagerations and setting up straw men just so you can knock them down) anything, I just said it was a nother tool that has positive potential. In fact I specifically said it would NOT be a magic fix all make anybody great tool.

I think we've proven rewind is about as beneficial as auto brake. It's a tool, or assist, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it becomes more harmful then helpful.

And maybe they will have it, who knows... like I said, the real pro simulators (the teaching/training ones) often do have some kind of rewind so maybe who knows.

Are you confusing a sector or situation trainer with rewind as it is in Forza 3?

Since so much of your arguments show you do not comprehend what I have said or just didn't see my posts I will break it down here simply:

Rewind can be a learning tool with positive potential.

So can auto brake. Only problem is the potential is usually very small or there are better ways to help drivers.

Learning by trial and error is a very legitimate way to learn.

I agree. However if your merely slapped on the hand for every error will you really learn? Will you really be sure not to do that next time?

Scientific studies have shown that if you apply what you learn soon after you learn it, you learn faster (this is generally applied to the school environment but the point is the same) rewind lets you concentrate on your weak areas by isolating them and focusing until you have conqured that specific issue.

My question to you. Do you think rewind will help someone learn a track better then a sector trainer like the one in GTR2? I'm talking about proper racing line, braking points, everything.

Reasons why drivers make mistakes:

- Driver is not familiar with a course
- Driver is not familiar with overtaking opportunities on a scourse
- Driver is not familiar with the limits of his car
- Driver does not display discipline and knowingly over drives car or tries a risky move

How do you try and fix these mistakes? Practice.

You say fix them by rewinding. The problem is there are millions and millions of situations that may present themselves and rewinding them all will simply not fix the problem. A new driver will eventually stop using rewind because he will find out that he keeps making mistakes because he simply does not know why he makes them

In short, there are too many ways a driver can make a mistake and too many variables in order for rewind to be effective.

How others use rewind cannot hurt you becuase rewind would be limited to single player only.

Those who don't want rewind are more concerned about the advancement of other drivers then those who want rewind.

Rewind does not magically fix all your problems and let you win races without getting better, that's what Bspec does, rewind just lets you conveniently choose the areas you focus on practicing but you still have to get better to get around the corner in the end.
Rewind is like being able to focus on a specific math problem to practice over and over instead of having to practice an entire chapter or book of problems before you can come back and practice the one that is giving your problems again.

A sector trainer is more precise, less tacky, and more user friendly then rewind.

Rewind as a learning tool has it's limites and probably won't be taking anyone up to the highest ranks of skill.
People will choose how to use rewind based on their own personlities and desires. Again how they choose won't in any way effect you.
If you want to keep GT as some sort of elitest, only for the best society type thing, that's fine for you to want, but it's not a logical argument for a flaw in rewind as a learning tool

Not elitest. A realist who understands that not everything is for everyone and far sighted enough to know rewind is a dead end.

Remember, there are some two types of people out there, those who want to do better and those who don't. Those who don't want to do better probably won't be helped by rewind, but they weren't going to get better anyway because they don't want it.

Should the master have to cater to those who do not want to do better? It's his choice and I believe he won't. The majority of GTPlanet users agree that there is no need to cater to these people as well. The polls have spoken.

Basically those who aren't going to use a easy to access, integrated rewind to help learn weren't going to be going into license mode or any other mode to learn, that's why that line of logic is flawed. They weren't not learning because of rewind, they are not learning because they aren't motivated to get better.

They have to do the licenses. It's the only way to progress in Gran Turismo. Can't run in the more advanced races using faster better cars if you dont have your A license. If they're not motivated to get better then I suggest they go get a gameshark and get 10,000,000,000 credits and unlock the licenses and cars. Don't ask for the sim to have a baby-sit feature like rewind.

It's like giving out free tools to high school flunkouts. Those who want to improve will use them to learn how to build stuff where not having those tools might have been the difference between being too difficult to get a start.

More like giving out a fisher price tool set to flunkies and telling them to build a house with no directions. That's what rewind does to and tells newcomers.

Those who aren't motivated to improve won't use the tools to learn anything, but they sure weren't going to be learning via the harder and less accessible methods either... to argue that sector traininer or license tests are what people should be using would be like saying those flunkouts shouldn't be given toolbelts, they shold have to go earn some text books and go to scheduled schools and classes. Let's face it, if you aren't motivated enough to get some free tools and hammer some stuff together, you aren't motivated enough to go to school to learn it the slow tedious way.

First off, why are flunkouts even showing up for a carpentry class? If they're not serious then they're hopeless, no reason to try and help them. They should go by a gameshark, or in the real world go pay some real carpenters to do whatever business they need done. They need not waste the instructor, or in GT's case the master's time.

Not a solution if people want to drive without the line. You talk about getting all rewind dependent and using to be lazy then suggest the line, which could be just as addicting and as "lazy" for completing the game.

The point remains, there already is a fix for those who don't know when to brake.

No, Sector trainer would not be better. Sector trainer with rewind is the best option, pretty much infinite control over your training session. Even more precise, even less cumbersome, and gives you all the feedback and times you'd get without rewind alone.

I've had first hand experience with a sector trainer myself, I can't see why rewind would help considering GTR2 broke the track up into sectors usually no longer then 20 seconds.

Rewind and get very specific experience with a certain situation that can be repeated many times over much faster than a license test.

Actually, its not specific. There are thousands if not millions of ways to crash on your own or into another car. Rewinding one crash and you'll end up just crashing slightly differently the next time.

The key is to teach yourself discipline and to practice the course and understand the limits of your car and those around you whether they be AI or real people.

This is already semi-contradictory since you promoted the racing line. Rewind won't babysit you anyway, it just teaches you how to drive.

I'm simply saying a racing line is a far better solution then rewind. A racing line says "this is where you need to brake or accelerate". Rewind says "do what you want"

Says who.

Says the sim racing industry which hasn't had any new revolutionizing assists come along that I know of.

Rewind is learning, the above makes no sense.

It's about as much learning as driving a bike with training wheels is learning how to ride.

Rewind doesn't say that all.

In the long run it does.

 

[Dravonic]

Just wow.

You know it's true when the game has auto-brake.

On a more mature note, Greenawalt has said over and over again that he want's to make a game that a 6 year-old and a hardcore sim fan can enjoy. A hardcore sim fan can use rewind as a learning tool but he's past the training wheels long ago. We all know rewind is there because of the 6 year-olds.

 

[Devedander]

Theres no such thing as a perfect simulator. Even the most die hard sims, whether it be car racing or airplane flying have very unrealistic sides to them.

I didn't say perfect simulator, in fact I alluded to existing simulators.

And a baseball T is almost useless in training someone how to hit a moving ball thrown by a pitcher in real time. Its just like rewind. Sure, if they make a mistake trying to pass a car they can rewind and do it right, but thats only one of millions of possible mistakes. The best way to learn how to hit a ball is to start taking real pitches. The best way to learn how to not make a mistake in a driving simulator is to practice practice practice, learn the limits of your car and your own driving, because your going to make alot and I mean alot of different individual mistakes and the best way to fix these is not to rewind but to learn how to avoid them all together.

If baseball Ts are useless, then why are they so ubiquitously used? And I beg to differ that they don't help, they help with the first step which is contacting a stationary target, when you are confident with that you apply that skill to a moving target.

And if rewind is not serious about helping to make a great driver why include it in Gran Turismo?

Because the process is a multipart one, every part can be imporatnt and rewind addresses one of those parts. Learning to spell doesn't make you a nvelist, but it's sure an important step.

The question people who make mistakes should be asking themselves is why did I make the mistake in the first place?

Was braking too late the only mistake? Thats what rewind teaches them. The truth is he most likely was also over aggressive. He was probably careless too by getting into the corner so deep, risking contact and damage. But rewind teaches him that he just braked too late. Now that he can instantly rewind and just brake a little earlier he does not learn patience nor is he punished. He faces no consequences.

The example of using rewind was simplified because it woudl be pages to type up every possible thing you could think of to try differently. All the things you say can be contributing factors, and trial and error will teach you how to avoid these errors, rewind just is the most efficient way to focus your trial on your trouble areas.

Alot of people were wreckless in previous Gran Turismos because of no damage. Adding damage, in the long run, will make better drivers. Rewind, in the long run, does not make a better driver.

Those are assumptions. There are some people who will not improve becuase of damage (they will either turn it off, or just bash into stuff or give up from frustration). People who took it seriously were driving clean without damage before also.

And you are right that rewind does not make a better driver. Just like a calculator does not make a smarter math student and having open practice at the track does not make better drivers.

But having it will allow those who are interested in using it to improve, especially those who the existing set of tools didn't work well for or left gaps for. No one is saying rewind WILL make a person better, we are saying it has the potential to be a postitive learning tool and that it has uses in GT that aren't already covered.

It's funny in the damage thread a lot of people said they didn't want damage because they never crash anyway, apparently not having damage made them perfect drivers

As a learning tool its about as helpful as training wheels. Lets get past the kiddie stage and get into big boy racing. No baby-sitting here.

That's your opinion, and it may well be KYs and PD's too, but taht's an opinion about a certain cirumcstance, it says nothign about the logical arguments about why rewind has positive potential.

The master thinks differently then Dan Greenawalt. Greenawalt designs his games so that people who have no real interest in learning how to drive the cars properly can still find some enjoyment in Forza.

Well I would say how GTPSP is designed shows that KY has at least some inerest in making a game more user friendly. And again, what you say is assumption, not fact.

The master is different. He wants people to learn about cars and how to drive them correctly. His views do not reflect your own.

I don't know how you can know his views and ironically I want peopel to learn how to drive correctly, that's why I think having all the tools available is best. It's you who does not want to bother with the kiddie stages and baby sitting, despite the fact that those stages are a very legitimate part of the learning process.

Again, the master wants people to learn how to driver properly. There is no room in Gran Turismo for a casual gimmicky feature like rewind. That is his choice and the majority of Gran Turismo fans, who think in line with the master agree.

Terms like gimicky are just opinion and mean nothing other than to express how you feel about it personally. And again, you speak as if you are psychic and inside KY's head.

Thats true. The master wants EVERYONE to take their driving serious all the time. He wants EVERYONE to learn how to race properly. Rewind is saying you don't have to. Again, the master and the majority of Gran Turismo fans think just like the master.

I have explained how rewind does not say that and at best it says that to you and it's an assumption that it says that to others.

The master thing is getting a bit creepy and if you by GT fans you mean here at GTP, then yes, but if you mean anyone who likes or might like GT in the whole world, I don't think you can speak to that. Remember casuals far outnumber hardcore.

It shows human nature. They kept screwing around causing large crashes and caution flags because they knew they wouldn't tear up any cars. Alot of people, if they know they can get away with it, will do alot of things.

Sure, some or even a lot will. And in the short term especially. But that says nothing about the long term. Despite not having damage in GT, we have developed racers who are very careful about racing clean all the same.

It doesnt fall in line with the thinking of the majority of GT fans as well as shown by the polls.

Again, the polls show what GTP thinks, we are the minority when it comes to overall GT players. Again, hardcore is by definition outnumbered by the casual.

Which is why rewind is useless. It's like training wheels. After a few days the rider will realize how useless they are in learning how to ride a bike and they will ditch the wheels. Same thing will happen with rewind, so why include a useless feature that the majority do not want?

Actually you just made my point for me... just like training wheel after using them for a while they will ditch them and move on. Exactly what I have always said and contrary to the popular negative argument.

And training wheels are not useless BTW in learning to ride a bike. They let you focus in more comfort and with less frustration.

It doesn't stop mistakes, no. That's the problem. Practicing and learning the hardway is a better way to learn how to not make the mistake in the first place, not rewind. To someone very near sighted rewind may sound like a great feature. But to those who see it for what it truly is and it's long term effects do not like it.

Practicing and learning are how to stop making mistakes. The hard way is not always the best way. That's where the term work harder not smarter comes from. Rewind is the smarter way to practice by focusing on the trouble areas only.

I would actually say to someone very near sighted rewind would seem like a bad feature, but whe you look past the obvious initial fears of how it might be abused and examine the overall learning process, you see in the big picture it's a valuable tool for one step of the learning process.

The master and me are worried about the long term welfare of new drivers. Rewind does little for the long term, may induce bad driving habits, and does not teach discipline so therefore is not needed

Really you are getting creepy here...

BTW it's "The master and I".

Look at this man. Do you think he thinks rewind is a good tool for Gran Turismo?

I honestly have no way to make such a judgement based on a picture... you are really starting to come across as slightly unbalanced here.

I've noticed alot of your posts have anti-God and anti-bible context in them. Yes, we do live in a secular society and you can get away with that, but lets leave the cheapshots out of this.

Where I have said Anti God and Anti Bible? I said God complex, that's not anti God.

Standard physics is a compromise, and a big enough of a compromise. It makes it easier to drive but is in no way comparable to rewind.

Big enough is subjective, you cannot state that unequivacably and it is not a fact. How one effects the game is apples to oranges compared to the other.

Rewind = Training wheels on a bicycle.

Standard physics = wider tires on a bicycle

I think they are both training wheels on a bicycle as I look at them both as a handicap to take the frustration out, let you learn the basics and then graduate out of.

Didn't you earlier say rewind says its OK if they want to screw around, it's their $60?

Yes I did. And I didn't say anything to the contrary there, I just said it doesn't tell them to do it. You can simultaneously say it's fine if you want to while not encouraging it.

I might give someone a birthday present and if they want to tear it to pieces, it's theirs, they are welcome to. But I am not telling them to do it.

Its a simulation. It's not OK to screw around.

It's a game, it's a purchase and who are you to say what's ok and not? This is another issue... why do people think they have any right to tell others how to use what they own?

Thus the name of this thread

"Practice Sectors"

I brought that up as the point it made carries over to the conversation at hand regardless of the thread title.

Learning how to ride a bike without training wheels may be the hard way but its the right way and will help you learn faster and better then rewind or training wheels ever will.

It's the right way? How did you get to be the one who decides what the right way is?

At best this is your opinion, not a fact. And I would say evidence is that training wheels are quite a good way to learn to ride a bike.

Then looks like they don't have the natural talent. Should there be different rules in football for those who are too slow, or who cant catch, or cant throw? Maybe give them 6 downs instead of 4, or say you only need 5 yards for a first down instead of 10? Rules are the same for everyone. If you can't keep up then its not the right thing for you. You being someone who probably believes in "survival of the fittest" I find it odd that you care so much about the 'weak' and lesser of us.

During the learning process absolutely, this is why football is broken down into age groups with numerous changes to rules and play made to accomodate the players abilities and help them learn by taking away the frustration of things that are beyond their skill level.

I absoultely agree that if a game does not offer an enjoyable experience it is not the place for you. But where we differe is I realize that making a game accomdate a wider audience isn't a bad thing as long as it doesn't damage anyone in the process.

This is even more so from a marketing standpoint (and again I point to GTPSP to show PD is aware of that as they have acted on it already).

I dont think they have rewind, but rather "sector trainers", or in the case of my time spent with Flight Simulator '98, 2002, and 2004 you get to have missions, or in GT's case "license tests", that start you on approach to an airport and you get to keep trying until you get it right. There is no rewind to back up 10 or 15 seconds before landing. You mess up you restart 5 miles out from the airport or in a holding pattern around the airport.

Actually we have had people here who actually train on commercial simulators state that they have exactly that. You can go back to a point in time to practice from there. They probably don't have a cool looking flashy rewind sequence and eye candy, but the feature to go back to a specific time midway through whatever you were doing is indeed there and is indeed a learnign tool.

We know how he thinks because we can see his inner workings through his child, Gran Turismo.

If you have seen and played Gran Turismo, you have seen the master.

Dude, super creepy. And remember, what he has done in the past does not garauntee anything about the future.

There is the audience who loves Burnout and doesnt care crap about driving properly or anything like that.

Should GT try and reach out to them? Some people are just hopeless. You think the master should add whacked out features to try and appeal to every single person. Most, including the master will disagree.

Reach out to them? I don't know, but accomodate those who would like to change over? Why not?

I don't know how you can speak for most, or who this is most of and I don't know how you can speak for Kaz.

I haven't experienced them any time, and I'm sure others haven't as well.

And I have, and I am sure others have as well... what's your point? Not everyone is the same you know?

I think we've proven rewind is about as beneficial as auto brake. It's a tool, or assist, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it becomes more harmful then helpful.

There has been no such proof, in fact it's proven (and we can actually prove this as it's in action) that it doesn't do anything for you (you still have to do it yourself unlike things like bspec) and that it isn't more harmful than helpful as it certainly hasn't ruined any of the games it's already in. It's funny the one thing there is actual evidence of becuase it is already out there being used is the thing you choose to discredit while simultaneously trying to use all your assumptions as fact.

Are you confusing a sector or situation trainer with rewind as it is in Forza 3?

No.

So can auto brake. Only problem is the potential is usually very small or there are better ways to help drivers.

Well auto brake actually does part of the job for you, rewind just lets you keep trying until you become good enough to do it yourself.

I agree. However if your merely slapped on the hand for every error will you really learn? Will you really be sure not to do that next time?

How did people learn before? By trial and error... isn't going off the corner, slamming into a wall or generally loosing exactly what motivated you to get better? Rewind doesn't change any of that, it just lets you focus on improving the areas that are in need of it so you can stop havig those problems.

My question to you. Do you think rewind will help someone learn a track better then a sector trainer like the one in GTR2? I'm talking about proper racing line, braking points, everything.

Some people yes, some people no. It depends on the person, how they think, what works for them and what doesn't. Learning is not a one size fits all tool, different people respond to different things.

Reasons why drivers make mistakes:

- Driver is not familiar with a course
- Driver is not familiar with overtaking opportunities on a scourse
- Driver is not familiar with the limits of his car
- Driver does not display discipline and knowingly over drives car or tries a risky move

How do you try and fix these mistakes? Practice.

Exactly, and rewind lets you practice the parts that you have difficulty with. Why is this point so hard to get across?

You say fix them by rewinding. The problem is there are millions and millions of situations that may present themselves and rewinding them all will simply not fix the problem. A new driver will eventually stop using rewind because he will find out that he keeps making mistakes because he simply does not know why he makes them

I never said fix them by rewinding... I think you have such a preset idea that you can't see what I am really saying...

Scaff said it very clearly in the othe thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3599200#post3599200

Its' the same learning by reptition that exists without rewind. When you don't use rewind, you have a bad corner, you come around the next lap, do you just do the same thing again forever and never learn? No, you try something new and you keep trying new things until you figure out what works.

I think you guys must have a missimpression of how rewind works or something... do you think you make a mitake, rewind and then you are suddenly magically past the trouble spot? You do realize you have to keep trying the corner until you do it right don't you? You know... learn to do it right?

In short, there are too many ways a driver can make a mistake and too many variables in order for rewind to be effective.

Actually that is exactly why rewind is effective, you can apply it in EVERY situation you get into. Sector practice is canned scenarios, at best you can set them up a bit.

It's really ironic that the arguments against rewind you keep using turn out to be exactly why rewind is better.

Those who don't want rewind are more concerned about the advancement of other drivers then those who want rewind.

From your post it sounds like you are more concerned with keeping bad drivers out of the game than helping them get better. You keep saying things like if they aren't good enough GT is not where they should be.

A sector trainer is more precise, less tacky, and more user friendly then rewind.

Here we go with tacky again... that's completely opinion and what does that have to do with anything? I think a purple and black Skyline ACR is tacky... that has nothing to do with how it performs. And I say again, no it's not more user friendly... rewind you literally have at the tip of your figners whenever you want and just get where you want to be, how is something you have to leave your race to go into and then setup or at choose a similar practice section to where you are having problems. It's like saying that exiting the race and going into the tuning sectino is more user friendly that simply pausing and accessing tuning directly from the menu is more user friendly... makes no sense.

Not elitest. A realist who understands that not everything is for everyone and far sighted enough to know rewind is a dead end.

No, an elitest who says that those who arne't good enough dont' belong and someone who relies on assumption and faulty logic to project a failure in the face of evidence that such a function will not fail (remember, rewind is already in use in games and doesn't ruin them).

Should the master have to cater to those who do not want to do better? It's his choice and I believe he won't. The majority of GTPlanet users agree that there is no need to cater to these people as well. The polls have spoken.

I don't know what he shoudl or shouldn't have to do, or what he will or won't do. I am not even saying what he should or shouldn't do. I am merely saying that arguments against rewind so far have been flawed.

And saying the majority of GTP users have spoke is like saying the majority of competitors at a BMX competition have spoken, that hardly respresents the whole bike riding world.

They have to do the licenses. It's the only way to progress in Gran Turismo. Can't run in the more advanced races using faster better cars if you dont have your A license. If they're not motivated to get better then I suggest they go get a gameshark and get 10,000,000,000 credits and unlock the licenses and cars. Don't ask for the sim to have a baby-sit feature like rewind.

Yes you do have to do licenses, and the proof that liceneses are not the end all to learning tools is that we still have bad drivers in GT even after completing the licenses. Even more so, we have licenses that frustrate some users into just quitting. Rewind might be the stepping stone these users need to get good enough to work their way up through the licenses.

And why do you suggest a game shark which totally does nothing to help someone learn instead of rewind which at least as the potential to help people learn?

More like giving out a fisher price tool set to flunkies and telling them to build a house with no directions. That's what rewind does to and tells newcomers.

Again, your assumptions about how rewind works is flawed. I suggest you see Scaffs post I linked to above for clarification.

First off, why are flunkouts even showing up for a carpentry class? If they're not serious then they're hopeless, no reason to try and help them. They should go by a gameshark, or in the real world go pay some real carpenters to do whatever business they need done. They need not waste the instructor, or in GT's case the master's time.

You are taking the analogy a bit far, but in this case, just because you don't do well in structured learning environment doesn't mean you can't do well with other learning envirnments like hands on training.

I know plenty of people who flunked out of high school or college but can rebuild an engine in their sleep or put a brand new roof on a house.

See this perfectly illustrates the problem with your short sightedness... you make a judgement, then build up evidence for it, rathe than look at the big picture and then openmindedly draw a conclusion.

You assume a flunkout can't do well, when in fact real world evidence says plenty can and many times it's eaxctly becuase the learning tools that would have worked for them were not available to them.

Sorry earth, you are completely off, just like all the vehimently anti rewind people before you... the irony is the correct statement here would be "hello... earth to... earth... anybody home?"

So far all I have seen from the anti rewind crowd is stating how they feel as fact and stating the fears that make them feel that way as more fact when in reality, it's all opinon and pretty flawed reasoning at that.

I think I just set a record for longest WOT!