Very obvious what you are doing here.
You want to start your rebuttal off by criticizing the simulation quality of Gran Turismo. You state your opinion that Gran Turismo is "somewhat of a simulator" as fact to try and drop the franchise down to the levels of Grid, DiRT, and Forza.
Not obvious enough I guess as tha'ts not what I was doing. I was pointing out that defending GTs status as a "simulator" as a reason to leave something out is flawed as it's already pretty far from a simulator.
As you put it so many times, rewind is like training wheels. In the end, how much will driving a bike with training wheels help you learn how to do the real thing properly?
As I have said many times, a baseball T won't make you a major league ball player, but it can very much be the first step.
I don't know why you keep trying to prove that rewind won't be the make or break difference to being a great driver when I never said it would.
Learning from your mistakes is part of life. Giving a new driver the ability to instantly correct mistakes does not teach them good driving habits for the long run.
Unless I missesd something about rewind, it doesn't instantly correct their mistakes for them.
It gives people the ability to instantly learn from their mistakes, while it's still fresh in their mind... see my previous analogy of math questions, trying again immediately vs trying again tomorrow.
If a driver has the ability to instantly rewind any mistake he makes will he be more cautious the next time he comes up on a similiar situation?
Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing is for sure, in the back of his mind he knows he has rewind to back him up so he can be wreckless if he wishes.
Well if I can restart a race, it's just a game, and it doesn't matter to anyone but me what I do, why wouldn't I be wreckless if I want to? It's not like without rewind people aren't already wreckless a lot.
And I don't agree it will just make people wreckless (I know for a fact I never got wreckless in GRID even though I had rewind). People who want to be wreckless may use rewind to get more enjoyment out of their being wreckless but those who want to learn will use it as a learning tool.
The important part of your comment is "if he wishes". If someone wants to be wreckless, they will be, if that's the kind of gamer you are, then that's how you are. As I said before, having rewind doens't make you do anything, being the kind of person to do it makes you do it.
The result?
Drivers became wreckless. They kept trying stupid moves that they would never normally try if they knew their cars could get damage.
GT has not had damage since GT 2. There are plenty of people who take their driving seriously all the same and try with every ounce of their ability to race clean even without damage.
All your story proves is that in some circumstance somethings happen. It doens't mean it always will and it isn't even really analogus to a learning too.
Some of my friends restart if they mess up anything on the first lap, maybe even the first two laps. Restart lets them do that. I think it's ridiculous to do that but whatever. The point being, just becuase you can use something to an extreme doesn't mean everyone will.
The same will happen with rewind. No consequences does not encourage better driving.
There are still consequences, in fact I think rewind is a consequence in and of itself. Once the excitement and eye candy factor wears off, rewind is just as annoying as restarting a race. The consequence of making mistakes is that you still don't finish the race until you have improved enough to not make that mistake.
A common trend I see is that an argument against rewind keeps infering that somehow rewind magically makes mistakes a thing of the pasts... rewind lets you go back and try again, but you have to try, and if you don't try and don't get better, rewind or not, you will never get through that corner.
So unless someone just likes rewinding and crashing the same situation over and over, then by default rewind will help them get better, because getting better is the only way to move on, even with rewind.
This is not the right thing to say to casuals or new drivers. It's not the proper way to help them get into sim racing.
That may be how you feel, that may be what works for you and how you would do it if you were, say, someones teacher. But that's just an opinion. For some people, rewind will not be the best tool, but for some it may well be.
The master will never approve of a feature that tells casuals they need to never learn how to race properly if they don't want to.
The master? Really? There is some God complex going on here
But anyhow, we already have lower difficulty levels and standard physics... GTPSP (made by PD and KY and is a GT game) caters very much to those of lower skill and does not in any way force them to drive better.
And again, it doesn't tell people that, it tells you that maybe, it tells some people that maybe, but you just need to stop assuming that the message you read into it, or the worst case scenario is something you can assume across the board as a rule. It's just not.
And I best you missed my post where I taught my brother, who doesnt race PERIOD the Monza track in GTR2 in a little over an hour using the sector trainer.
And I bet you missed the post where my friend struggled with two corners in GRID for over half an hour, then nailed them both using rewind to help practice in a few minutes.
I am not saying there aren't people who cand and do learn without rewind, I am just saying there are some who will.
Some people need training wheels to get over their fear of falling off a bike, some people just get on and go. Some people need the support to make it less daunting to start, some people scoff at it and prefer to do it the hard way. Neither is something you can just say applies to people across the board.
I know people who hopped on a bike, never fell off, and were doing jumps in under half an hour. I know people who tried with training wheels for weeks or months and are still shaky riders today. The fact that one type exists does not preclude the other.
Rewind does not belong in a simulator that is honestly trying to teach everyone how to race cars.
The irony is that in most simulators that really are to teach people things (flight training sims, naval boat sims, polic training sims) they DO have rewind for exactly the reason that it does help teach people.
Does the master sound like that type of person?
What is with this master thing?
And what is with people who assume:
A: they know what KY thinks and how he works inside
B: that KY is incapable of changing?
GT has continually added things to help lower skille drivers along. As I pointed out before, why should we not offer all the tools we can so we reach out to the widest audience? The marketing aspect is obvious and it every person who does get better from using rewind is one less person being totally crappy ruining online races for the rest of us.
Pretty weak sauce right there. PD should waste time modeling a feature that will help incidents that are one in a million?
I didn't say PD should put in rewind just for these, I just said rewind has a potential benefit for lower skilled as well as higher skilled players.
And these are not one in a million... I have experienced all those examples personally many times, and as is expected with such things, it seems they always happen at the most inopportune (read: Frustrating) times. I would have loved a rewind button when those things happened to me.
If rewind is such an industry changing, revolutionizing feature then I'm sure the next rFactor or GTR will have it. Right?
First off I never said it was industry changing or revolutionizing (it seems to make arguments against rewind you have to keep making exagerations and setting up straw men just so you can knock them down) anything, I just said it was a nother tool that has positive potential. In fact I specifically said it would NOT be a magic fix all make anybody great tool.
And maybe they will have it, who knows... like I said, the real pro simulators (the teaching/training ones) often do have some kind of rewind so maybe who knows.
Since so much of your arguments show you do not comprehend what I have said or just didn't see my posts I will break it down here simply:
Rewind can be a learning tool with positive potential.
Learning by trial and error is a very legitimate way to learn.
Scientific studies have shown that if you apply what you learn soon after you learn it, you learn faster (this is generally applied to the school environment but the point is the same) rewind lets you concentrate on your weak areas by isolating them and focusing until you have conqured that specific issue.
How others use rewind cannot hurt you becuase rewind would be limited to single player only.
Rewind does not magically fix all your problems and let you win races without getting better, that's what Bspec does, rewind just lets you conveniently choose the areas you focus on practicing but you still have to get better to get around the corner in the end.
Rewind is like being able to focus on a specific math problem to practice over and over instead of having to practice an entire chapter or book of problems before you can come back and practice the one that is giving your problems again.
Rewind as a learning tool has it's limites and probably won't be taking anyone up to the highest ranks of skill.
People will choose how to use rewind based on their own personlities and desires. Again how they choose won't in any way effect you.
If you want to keep GT as some sort of elitest, only for the best society type thing, that's fine for you to want, but it's not a logical argument for a flaw in rewind as a learning tool
Remember, there are some two types of people out there, those who want to do better and those who don't. Those who don't want to do better probably won't be helped by rewind, but they weren't going to get better anyway because they don't want it.
Basically those who aren't going to use a easy to access, integrated rewind to help learn weren't going to be going into license mode or any other mode to learn, that's why that line of logic is flawed. They weren't not learning because of rewind, they are not learning because they aren't motivated to get better.
It's like giving out free tools to high school flunkouts. Those who want to improve will use them to learn how to build stuff where not having those tools might have been the difference between being too difficult to get a start. Those who aren't motivated to improve won't use the tools to learn anything, but they sure weren't going to be learning via the harder and less accessible methods either... to argue that sector traininer or license tests are what people should be using would be like saying those flunkouts shouldn't be given toolbelts, they shold have to go earn some text books and go to scheduled schools and classes. Let's face it, if you aren't motivated enough to get some free tools and hammer some stuff together, you aren't motivated enough to go to school to learn it the slow tedious way.
