Project CARS 3 Developer Blog Explains New Tire Physics, Confirms Pit Stops Are History

[MroczMR]

And to be fair looking at the popularity of Forza and GT that might be a more appreciated way.

That's funny because both of this games do features Pit Stops... Pcars 3 is now on GRID level with features.

 

[MagpieRacer]

That's funny because both of this games do features Pit Stops... Pcars 3 is now on GRID level with features.

Barely. Actually in 50 hours of GT Sport I don't recall doing a pitstop. And I mean in Forza are there pitstops in the endurance races? Wasn't there like 4 of those races? And they'll have onky been put in to appease a certain crowd.

I also find it hilarious that people go, ugh its like Grid now. Insinuating that Grid is a terrible game and the benchmark for badness.

 

[egl92]

Come on guys chill out. In my car I have all season tires, so nothing wrong with magic tires and the decision to cut pitstops.
Refuel, damage, endurance racing? What's that?

Please SMS, you have the work done from PC2, give us the option to choose if we want pitstops or not.
At least a simple pitstops like Forza has, if you want to simplify things for more casual players.

 

[Ak1504]

I'm afraid you're right and most people just want to jump in a car and race with it for 15 maybe 20 minutes.

When i joined iRacing the shortest races were 30 or 45min if i remember right... Now you can do 10,12 and 15min races all day... And servers are packed...

 

[Samus]

Haven't read all the messages but for those asking about damage, look to the GRID games of late. They have damage as an option but no pits.

You get damage, you either race on or restart the race. Bet that'll be the case here.

Still think when CM bought them they asked how far along the game was, SMS said a year or two left and CM said no, cut some things and get it out in 2020.

 

[MroczMR]

Barely. Actually in 50 hours of GT Sport I don't recall doing a pitstop. And I mean in Forza are there pitstops in the endurance races? Wasn't there like 4 of those races? And they'll have onky been put in to appease a certain crowd.

I also find it hilarious that people go, ugh its like Grid now. Insinuating that Grid is a terrible game and the benchmark for badness.

In GT Sport there are endurance races with pit stops. Also if you made custom race it can have pitstops.

Forza i don't care to be honest. But it have that option.

GRID isn't bad game. I have it, played it but it is rather simple title very shallow. I doubt everybody wanted PCARS 3 to be like that.

 

[snc]

Barely. Actually in 50 hours of GT Sport I don't recall doing a pitstop.

lol, every week you have 3 races and one of them has tire wear and fuel consumption, also all fia races has tire wear and fuel consumption

 

[MagpieRacer]

Still think when CM bought them they asked how far along the game was, SMS said a year or two left and CM said no, cut some things and get it out in 2020.

Highly unlikely.

 

[T0MMY3688]

Tbh i think the people that are interested in long races are a minority...

I think more players just don't have the time to do it as well, as much as I enjoy long races in pCARS 1 and 2 (when it worked) but I think I only did 10 long race so far.

That's funny because both of this games do features Pit Stops... Pcars 3 is now on GRID level with features.

If you go by older Grid Autosport, it has tyre wear for their endurance mode as well. Which is one of things that pCARS 3 got rid of it as well.

Still think when CM bought them they asked how far along the game was, SMS said a year or two left and CM said no, cut some things and get it out in 2020.

I don't think CM has much control in this, CM name wasn't even show as the publisher in most places. I guess it might be pCARS 2 didn't sell as well as they hope and they decided that making the game appeal to the more casual crowd will bring in more players and sales. They also hired a bunch of Evolution staff when CM fired them for Onrush failure to help out in pCARS 3.

 

[tunaphis]

As a older player ( I play video games, I'm not a sim racer ) who likes hot lapping,The pits offered a small respite from the concentration needed,Blinking of eye's,cigarette etc. while still staying in the game mentally.

 

[MagpieRacer]

As a older player ( I play video games, I'm not a sim racer ) who likes hot lapping,The pits offered a small respite from the concentration needed,Blinking of eye's,cigarette etc. while still staying in the game mentally.

Pause button?

I don't think CM has much control in this, CM name wasn't even show as the publisher in most places. I guess it might be pCARS 2 didn't sell as well as they hope and they decided that making the game appeal to the more casual crowd will bring in more players and sales. They also hired a bunch of Evolution staff when CM fired them for Onrush failure to help out in pCARS 3.

People are struggling to understand this aspect. Its been gone over so many times in terns of how long pC3 has been in development for and how unlikely it is that Codemasters have had any influence over it whatsoever. Its falling on deaf ears because people are desperate to find just cause for this game not being exactly how THEY wanted it to be.

 

[tunaphis]

while still staying in the game mentally.

 

[Samus]

Highly unlikely.

When I joined as a backer for pCARS 1 back in the day I'd have said it was highly unlikely future games would have no pit stops and magic tyres, but here we are.

People are struggling to understand this aspect. Its been gone over so many times in terns of how long pC3 has been in development for and how unlikely it is that Codemasters have had any influence over it whatsoever. Its falling on deaf ears because people are desperate to find just cause for this game not being exactly how THEY wanted it to be.

It's not about what we want it to be, it's about what SMS always said this game, and then series, was all about. Even if they decide to ease back some of the more hardcore aspects to appeal to casual fans, why remove something so fundamental to the original goal of the game entirely?

What has caused this monumental shift? (Pun intended)

 

[T0MMY3688]

New twitter post from Nathan Bell:

Pit stops is removed very early on in development, pitchforks pointing at Codemasters should now be aim back to Slightly Mad Studios.

 

[Morbid65]

I wanted to give your post a good read but got here and stopped. Absolute *******s.

BTCC, which you tried to use as an example FOR pitstops. Is the best example of a rscing series where no pitstops is perfect. VERY rarely is a pitstop made, and very rarely does it alter an outcome. Formula E, no pitstops, exciting racing, LMP1, pitstops, slightly dull. How many F1 races have been ruined because of tyre strategy robbing us of a good race?

There's 2 sides to every argument and 2 sides to everyone's desires. To say people who feel pitstops can ruin a good race, dont watch or care about its is just plain ignorant. To then compare that kind of racing to GTA5 is absolutely laughable.

BTCC wasn't being used an example of racing with pitstops, it was being used as an example of racing where tire slick/rain tire selection can (and often does) make for exciting racing. Look at the Round 1 weekend last year for an example. Also, BTCC is a prime example of tire compound (hard/soft) creating more interesting racing through wear. I guess I could have been more specific, but I don't feel it was terribly hard to figure out what was meant, so I didn't see the need to type out "pit stops and/or tire wear and/or tire compounds" yet again since I had already mentioned them multiple times before that point.

Formula E being exciting racing is up for debate (and they are looking at re-introducing pitstops anyway), and yes LMP1 has been somewhat dull in the last handful of years, but that's sticking just to whether or not they have pitstops, not the wear/fuel burn/compound selection changes associated with them. F1 races have largely sucked for years now, and you could just as easily ask how many dull races actually showed some promise for something happening late in the race because of a risky tire strategy call made at the mid point. The number between the two is likely pretty similar.

In general, some forms of racing, some types of cars, some racing formats, and some game modes benefit from the strategy, and some don't necessarily. The problem with how that relates to PC3 is that we don't have the option to decide that for ourselves anymore.

It's amusing his comment actually. Because he says he doesn't know why people can't see in the grey. Then fails to see the grey throughout the remainder of his post, seemingly attacking anyone who feels the racing would be fine without pitstops and saying we should play GTA5 if we want that kind of racing.

Hilarious.

... And you are also failing to see the grey by jumping to defend the lack of them by "attacking" series that have them and getting defensive over comments not even directed at you, while you miss the point of the whole thing by continuing to harp on the pit stops themselves.

I wasn't meaning to attack anyone who feels the racing can be fine without them, the GTA jab was directed at people who would selfishly see the complete removal of those elements as a positive move. Even if they don't personally care much for pit stops and all that for their own experience, racing enthusiasts would know they can be a critical part of many forms of racing, and understand why it would be a dealbreaker for some, instead of making "hAhA sTuPiD sIm ElItIsTs" style comments. I'll give you that I could have worded it more clearly.

Regardless of whether you are for, against, or indifferent about pit stops and the associated stuff, completely removing them from the game is a negative thing as it robs people of choice. The grey here is seeing that completely removing critical circuit racing elements from a circuit racing game rightfully hurts the enjoyment that a significant portion of the racing community can get from the game.

The black and white around the grey is "pit stops are dumb, take them out and anyone who isn't happy is a sim elitist whiner" or "this game is now casual trash because it's sim-cade and not an ACC competitor." I'm not sure how my stance of wanting a sim-cade game that offers depth but being disappointed that the option for a significant amount of that depth has been completely removed isn't relatively "grey."

I felt the PCARS wordplay stuff was obviously joking though, but I suppose reading through some of this stuff that may not be clear.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

As a older player ( I play video games, I'm not a sim racer ) who likes hot lapping,The pits offered a small respite from the concentration needed,Blinking of eye's,cigarette etc. while still staying in the game mentally.

I like hot lapping.

Practice is where i spend over 90% of my time in pcars 2 just hot lapping my favorite car and sometimes others.

 

[Sikumatchbox]

Pitstops are one of the fun aspects in racing games. The pitlane adds an extra to a race. You want to do it as quick as possible, but you only take the pit-entrance and exit only a very few times. That's makes it exiting. Take for example the pit-entrance at Bathurst with the horrible left-right-left corners. It gives an extra challenge.

(edit: typo)

 

[MagpieRacer]

BTCC wasn't being used an example of racing with pitstops, it was being used as an example of racing where tire slick/rain tire selection can (and often does) make for exciting racing. Look at the Round 1 weekend last year for an example. Also, BTCC is a prime example of tire compound (hard/soft) creating more interesting racing through wear. I guess I could have been more specific, but I don't feel it was terribly hard to figure out what was meant, so I didn't see the need to type out "pit stops and/or tire wear and/or tire compounds" yet again since I had already mentioned them multiple times before that point.

Formula E being exciting racing is up for debate (and they are looking at re-introducing pitstops anyway), and yes LMP1 has been somewhat dull in the last handful of years, but that's sticking just to whether or not they have pitstops, not the wear/fuel burn/compound selection changes associated with them. F1 races have largely sucked for years now, and you could just as easily ask how many dull races actually showed some promise for something happening late in the race because of a risky tire strategy call made at the mid point. The number between the two is likely pretty similar.

In general, some forms of racing, some types of cars, some racing formats, and some game modes benefit from the strategy, and some don't necessarily. The problem with how that relates to PC3 is that we don't have the option to decide that for ourselves anymore.



... And you are also failing to see the grey by jumping to defend the lack of them by "attacking" series that have them and getting defensive over comments not even directed at you, while you miss the point of the whole thing by continuing to harp on the pit stops themselves.

I wasn't meaning to attack anyone who feels the racing can be fine without them, the GTA jab was directed at people who would selfishly see the complete removal of those elements as a positive move. Even if they don't personally care much for pit stops and all that for their own experience, racing enthusiasts would know they can be a critical part of many forms of racing, and understand why it would be a dealbreaker for some, instead of making "hAhA sTuPiD sIm ElItIsTs" style comments. I'll give you that I could have worded it more clearly.

Regardless of whether you are for, against, or indifferent about pit stops and the associated stuff, completely removing them from the game is a negative thing as it robs people of choice. The grey here is seeing that completely removing critical circuit racing elements from a circuit racing game rightfully hurts the enjoyment that a significant portion of the racing community can get from the game.

The black and white around the grey is "pit stops are dumb, take them out and anyone who isn't happy is a sim elitist whiner" or "this game is now casual trash because it's sim-cade and not an ACC competitor." I'm not sure how my stance of wanting a sim-cade game that offers depth but being disappointed that the option for a significant amount of that depth has been completely removed isn't "grey."

I felt the PCARS wordplay stuff was obviously joking though, but I suppose reading through some of this stuff that may not be clear.

I'm not attacking series that have them at all. But you can't just look at 1 side of the argument. 'Sim elitists' which isn't a term I used in either posts, do exist, and bring on the criticism themselves by attacking anyone who disagrees or is open to having a more fun game, even while retaining some of the most important aspects of a driving game. And yet as soon as a sim fan sees a point they don't agree with they attack that person for ruining sim racing gsmes, i get jumped on for being overly critical. I'm not trying to force people to see the light and agree with the decision. But everyone's attacking them while failing to recognise anything good, nevermind the fact that this game may sell to a much wider audience who may not have bothered before, which will in turn beef up the coffers and in turn keep giving us great games.

It IS possible to have a realistic driving game thats fun and accessible for a wider audience. Some compromises have to be made on the way. If those compronises aren't made up for in other areas then questions will get raised. If the decision was made early on then theres clearly a distinct ideology that have of where this game is going and what they wanted it to be.

 

[fernandito]

@_NathanBell: I didn't know ditching pit stops and many other simulation_key racing features means innovation.

 

[Samus]

New twitter post from Nathan Bell:

Pit stops is removed very early on in development, pitchforks pointing at Codemasters should now be aim back to Slightly Mad Studios.

I mean, they're just words. Not saying I have any evidence that it was CM doing, but that's not proof it wasn't either.

He's also trying to frame removing key features of racing as "innovation", so....

 

[greenlightning]

How will dynamic rain work then. Lets say I have a 10 lap race and on lap three heavy rain starts, how would I change from full slicks to rain tyres? Not a good move imo.

I would suspect that changing tires mid race is not an option. Then to that effect weather changes during the race might not be an option.

 

[Samus]

I would suspect that changing tires mid race is not an option. Then to that effect weather changes during the race might not be an option.

They've already said what happens, magic tyres that change to wets on their own.

 

[Bloodytears]

Found it hard to explain to positive viewers, what has been missed by them, as if they missed it already while it existed.

Personally, liked last NFS, and it was really about driving and mindless tuning. This fun experience, no doubt, but lasted for may be a little longer after main campaign. Yes I can drive fast and close there, and "tracks", but there is no progression in those races. When all sim factors kicks in game, every race is unique, you have so many possible twists, which make so greater tension, as you always trying to hold everything together, including your opponents.

Not gonna say I will not buy it, because at least new NFS is far away, and not satisfied with ACC. Just I believe all fun will be 30 hours long, then some tedious grind for something that you would think will vary dull experience onmon short racing, but will not.

To be honest, very few of those "casual" drivers can really stand side by side racing, like the same 2 percent, others just cut you off on turns or simply ram out.

 

[fernandito]

They've already said what happens, magic tyres that change to wets on their own.

Which is indeed laughable.

They should have gone with the Revolution name instead of pc3, so the heated debate would not exist at all, which at the same time makes me think they kept the name pc3 on purpose so the debate flooded every forum for the better or the worse of everyone's opinion, so the game gets known by many more folks, specially by those that stayed away from pc1 and 2 for being sims.

 

[T0MMY3688]

I mean, they're just words. Not saying I have any evidence that it was CM doing, but that's not proof it wasn't either.

He's also trying to frame removing key features of racing as "innovation", so....

Codemasters is not going come out and admits it even if they did it but SMS own marketing director claimed it is their decision early in development. It is as close to "evidence" that CM has nothing to do with this and SMS is willing to take the blame on the decision instead of keeping their mouth shut and let us wonder without an answer.

 

[greenlightning]

Holy crap so if you do a race with slicks, and it starts raining at any point you can't change to wets?

And what about damage? The website says you can do 24 hour races, so if something goes wrong you're SOL?

Exactly, their sure will not be a lot motivation to race much more then say 1 hour at a time.
Many a real world race are won or loss based on tire management, fuel strategy, keeping damage to a minimum etc.

I will go out on a limb and spectulate that the classic lemans cars or even formula cars are axed because they deem the general gamer to find them to hard to drive. Along with deeming that the general gamer will not want and or enjoy putting in the required time to master such iconic beast as they believe they will not find this fun.

 

[Samus]

Which is indeed laughable.

They should have gone with the Revolution name instead of pc3, so the heated debate would not exist at all, which at the same time makes me think they kept the name pc3 on purpose so the debate flooded every forum for the better or the worse of everyone's opinion, so the game gets known by many more folks, specially by those that stayed away from pc1 and 2 for being sims.

Indeed. Let's not forget what CARS stands for. You can't call something a Racing Simulation whilst not simulating key parts of racing. Even if you let them off with the pits, because a lot of racing series don't use pit stops, all racing series that have ever existed in history have used tyre wear and fuel usage. You know, because it's a little bit impossible not to. Taking that away is worse than no pit stops.

 

[greenlightning]

They've already said what happens, magic tyres that change to wets on their own.

Okay that's freaking stupid and in no way simulates real races.

Apparently they just want to focus on average GT or Forza player that wants just a handful of laps for fun.

Oh well at least their is AM2.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Okay that's freaking stupid and in no way simulates real races.

Apparently they just want to focus on average GT or Forza player that wants just a handful of laps for fun.

Oh well at least their is AM2.

Heh, yeah, imagine that, a group of players who want to play games for fun. Who'd have thought it.

 

[Morbid65]

I'm not attacking series that have them at all. But you can't just look at 1 side of the argument. 'Sim elitists' which isn't a term I used in either posts, do exist, and bring on the criticism themselves by attacking anyone who disagrees or is open to having a more fun game, even while retaining some of the most important aspects of a driving game. And yet as soon as a sim fan sees a point they don't agree with they attack that person for ruining sim racing gsmes, i get jumped on for being overly critical. I'm not trying to force people to see the light and agree with the decision. But everyone's attacking them while failing to recognise anything good, nevermind the fact that this game may sell to a much wider audience who may not have bothered before, which will in turn beef up the coffers and in turn keep giving us great games.

It IS possible to have a realistic driving game thats fun and accessible for a wider audience. Some compromises have to be made on the way. If those compronises aren't made up for in other areas then questions will get raised. If the decision was made early on then theres clearly a distinct ideology that have of where this game is going and what they wanted it to be.

Of course sim elitists exist and post some hostile stuff, but the groups on the opposite end that fire back in a hostile way are just on the other side of things... Not specifically this thread or this forum, but just in general in the racing community I see plenty that go both ways, and as sim-cade titles look to bridge the gap between the two, both sides start to mingle it can certainly cause a divide on subjects like this. It has been in Forza for years now.

I also don't think that "fun" can be tied to one side of the spectrum as it's subjective, and that's one thing the more casual side always attack the sim guys with, implying they don't know how to have fun or are against fun or whatever. In this particular case with the pitstops, some will find the strategy fun and some will find it tedious... which is why I don't see how taking it away from one "side" of the playerbase is a good move for a game meant to broadly appeal to both groups.

The wider audience part is certainly true, and as I hinted at in my original novel/post, a part of the game I was actually looking forward to as it could be a nice place to build up a community of more laid-back racers for events, much like Forza is/was... But I don't necessarily think that the pit stops and their associated elements will have much to do with appealing to a wider audience. If PC3 is being marketed as a sim-cade circuit racing title with upgrades for street cars as well as race cars and all that, then I think a lot of interested people who aren't on forums like this that cover all this stuff would go into it expecting something similar to Forza or GT, and both of those have had pitstops and tire wear and such for years. Both of those also have options to turn all that stuff off. I can't say I've ever heard of anyone not buying a GT or Forza game because it has an option to have pit stops.

While Forza and GT are both plugging along, Forza has grown stale and GT alienated a lot of players with their online-focus. I don't have PS/GT so I don't know about that community as much, but within the Forza community a lot of people want an alternative. Not even having an option for pit stops pushes the game further towards the arcade end of the racing game spectrum, so it's not surprising that players that were getting excited for a new sim-cade title are worried it may lean too far towards the arcade side.

On some level these subjects are inherently selfish as we all have to decide whether we will enjoy the game enough to spend our own hard earned money on them, but I just can't see removing something that is almost considered a standard feature of circuit racing games, and was pretty much completely optional on top of that, from the game as a positive move... even if it isn't the end of the world.