proper setup for Spoon Civic Type R..,

Discussion in 'GT4 Tuning' started by =drifting24/7=, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    Quicker reaction results in more understeer and seemingly less responsive handling, the car nearly always feels best when using the weakest diff settings possible before you start hurting the car's nature (does that make sense, I don't even know) I agree with the toe, I should have used it in my original tune.
    As for the Lupo, I kinda hate that car, would the Golf V GTI be similarly good to learn on?
     
  2. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    The 'initial' on the diff controls the amount of preload put on it under both acceleration and deceleration. Higher number there means it takes more torque due to wheel speed difference needs to get the diff to let the axles rotate at differing speeds.

    Accel and decel simply affect the willingness of the diff to allow axle speed differences under either accel or decel, whereas the initial affects it at all times.

    I find myself using very low diff settings on almost all cars; the front diff on an AWD being the most likely to differ from that. (AWDs like to light the inside front up more than FWDs, it seems)

    Maybe I'll give this car a go as well to see what I come up with.
     
  3. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    so what you are saying is, being too lightweight is a disadvantage??

    yes, the Spoon Civic does have an abnormally large amount of wheelspin.., but that sucks, i want mine to go faster.., :(

    actually, i did not say anything about S3's being included in the original request, i just said that i wanted its handling to improve.., in fact, i use R3 on front, and R5 on rear.., :D

    BTW, i am going to use this car on Citta 'di Aria, not GVS.., so, good luck to me..,:)
     
  4. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    have fun. ( which you will :lol: )
     
  5. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    Wait, using R5s out back is just going to create UNDERSTEER...
     
  6. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    with more weight maybe.. oh well, he'll notice soon..
     
  7. eg6_dude

    eg6_dude

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    R5s will give you a fair amount of understeer. Plus anytime time you use R5s on a car the suspension is hard to tune and car overall is hard to tune and get a good feel for. If you tire stagger I would reccomend using R3s in the front and R2s in the rear. :tup:

    Peace,
    EG6_DUDE
     
  8. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    I learnt a bit about FF tuning from tuning a VW Golf V GTI, which turned out great without use of downforce (which is good for FFs with me). Should I get back on the Spoon? Leo seemingly has it covered.
     
  9. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    I had built one... And this car seemingly wants a different approach to tuning it than usual FWDs.
     
  10. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    How so? And where's your avatar, or is my computer going dodgy...........
     
  11. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    feel free to do tuning on this car. the more options he get, likelyhood of finding a setup that suits him grows.
     
  12. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    Avy's been gone for a few days.

    The car seems to be a little backwards in that I'm actually running SOFTER rear spring rates than front... Same for the stabilizers. And that seems to get the schnoze to grab better.

    Oh, and I shifted some weight off the nose too. Might try the opposite.
     
  13. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    man, i am such a NOOB when it comes to tuning cars:dunce::indiff:..,


    i have softer suspension settings UP FRONT of the Spoon Civic.., man, i do suck at tuning..,


    BTW, here is my comment about the Spoon Civic and Leonidae's setup:

    i run the Civic with Leonidae's setup yesterday, but i had no time to get online, so i will post today.., the car is really hard to drive without TCS.., i kept saying "this car can't possibly live without TCS on..," its wheels keep on spinning, even in gear 3.., mind you guys, if you know how to tame this car, consider yourself a master of GT4, whether you may be a tuner or driver.., this car is for EXPERTS..,
     
  14. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    well, my car had stock power so the wheelspin wasn't too bad. I might tinker more with it in the future.. but yeah, this car is for pro's, just like it's driven by a pro in certain cult anime..:idea:
     
  15. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    drifting24/7: Actually, running a softer nose is normal... That's why I called this car backwards. So it's not that you're horrid at tuning, it's just inexperience.
     
  16. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    RJ's right, in an FF car running stiffer springs at the rear and softer at the front is normal, (learnt that from tuning the Golf and common sense of the knowledge of weight distribution). It could be in this car that because of the light-weightedness (it must have a light engine) when you use a stiffer rear most of what weight it has is placed on the rear tyres WHEN TURNING and the front loses too much grip to turn properly. Normally an FF understeers also because of the weight of the engine and diff being up front and nothing is out back, (as well as the fact that weight transfers backwards under accleration and the tyres up front lose grip). But the engine is so light in this car that it doesn't have much weight there in the first place and using a stiffer rear suspension puts more weight on the rear tyres when cornering (normally you need this to balance an FF car's weight and help it turn) and results in a lack of grip for the front tyres. So in conclusion the combination of accelerating through a corner and more weight transfer onto the rear tyes and stiffer rear springs also resulting in more weight on the rear tyres means that the car has little weight left to get the front tyres to grip with. Normally in an FF car this is not a problem as there is a lot of weight up front when cornering and using the stiffer rear springs removes some of that creating better balance and therfore better handling.

    Just my 2 cents, and I hope I'm right otherwise someone will have to correct me. I may have repeated myself a couple of times to get a point across, sorry about that. It makes sense to me, does everyone else understand it?

    Here, I got an idea, I'll try and show what I mean through use of number diagrams just like in Greyout's guide to weight transfer. I will show the difference between 2 theoretical FF cars weighing 1000kg, one is the Spoon Civic and one is a normal stereotypical FF. The diagrams show the amount of weight on each tyre and are not exact accurate readings, but give the idea I'm trying to put across. The front tyres are the numbers up top of each diagram, and left tyres are on the left and right tyres on the right.

    Spoon Civic
    Stereotypical FF​

    Weight on tyres when car is sitting still
    300 / 300
    350 / 350​
    200 / 200
    150 / 150​

    Note that the Spoon's engine places less weight on the front as it is lighter

    Weight on tyres when accelerating
    150 / 150
    200 / 200​
    350 / 350
    300 / 300​

    See this explains why the Spoon also get more wheelspin, less weight there when accelerating. Both cars shifted 300kg backwards.

    Now assuming we have stiffer rear springs
    Weight on tyres when turning right
    150 / 300
    200 / 350​
    200 / 350
    150 / 300​

    See how when turning with stiffer rear springs the Spoon has less weight on the front wheels than the conventional FF, therefore the normal FF has actually got more grip and weight on the front tyres than the back meaning less wheelspin while turning than the Spoon. The reason the sterotypical FF has less weight on the rear is because of the heavier engine still. Obviously when cornering you aren't full bore accelerating, but you are a little. And the balance is good for the stereotypical FF here, and the Spoon for that matter but the balance is better for the normall FF.

    Now let's go stiffer front springs at the front
    200 / 350
    250 / 400​
    150 / 300
    100 / 250​

    See now the Spoon has more weight on the front and gets less wheelspin while having a better balance and therefore more neutral handling than the sterotypical FF. The sterotypical FF will have way more traction than the Spoon in corners but the balance is way off and will have so much weight at the front it will understeer. Mind you at no point is either perfect- they're still FF! And also having stiffer front springs will still hurt straight line acceleration traction but in corners it will be better for the balance and traction so that's why this car is better with stiffer front springs So there you go =drifting24/7= Your stiffer rear springs had good basis in theory and will still work in a straight line (or a normal FF) as it will limit lift off the front tyres in a straight line but this car is unique and stiffer rears will not help handling here.
     
  17. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    I'd recommend playing with ride height like I did. with stock ride height the car was too low, which made it too stabile. Raisnign both ends, especially the rear end, helped nicely.
     
  18. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    Doesn't someone want to comment about my explaination of why stiffer springs at the front seemed to be working better? I put a lot of work into that.

    Edit: OK =drifting24/7= I am pretty sure that I have the perfect setup to suit your touge needs now, perhaps even the perfect setup full stop. OK maybe not perfect but damned close, (the setup makes mathematical sense and feels great) it's got all the parts except rigidity increase and it runs NA stage 2. It starts redlining just under 230km/hr so the top speed is in the exact region you wished for and running racing medium tyres wheelspin is barely an issue either. Of course if you don't care about what tyres you use you could even put on racing qualifying and forget about wheelspin altogether. But before I post it I have one remaining question, it can be made better. I made it without a wing, it can get a wing and I can put on downforce which will really complete the package, but as it's your car I'll let you decide. Do you want a rear wing for better handling?

    PS- at the moment without a wing and using Racing medium tyres I've run a best time of 2'00.8xx at Grand Valley Speedway.
     
  19. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    Wimp. :p

    S3s here, near-stock power. Wheelspin strangely lacking in third.
     
  20. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    The owner right at the beginning requested R3/best tyres, and that means the capability of more power, and he wants it as fast as possible so he might want a wing. Barely any second gear wheelspin here at all.
     
  21. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    increasing the power also increases the wheelspin, so i can see why you did not put any engine upgrades, just the exhaust.., hmm, a certain cult anime, huh?? wonder what that is.., :idea: :lol:

    that is because i don't know how to tune a car and get the feeling for it.., i just know how to drive and bear with it..,


    i get what you mean.., i see now that the Spoon Civic is a unique car, it is very different from other FFs..,

    sorry if i just posted today, i didn't have time yesterday.., school activities and other things..,

    no wing please, i like to keep it that way.., uhm,. could you please do a test run on Citta 'di Aria, and not GVS?? i like you to fully experience what the Spoon Civic is like without TCS. after that, tell me about your experience, comment about it here.., thanks.., :D

    well, i'm very sorry, but i am not as good a driver as you are.. i know that there are a lot, and i mean a LOT, other players out there who's way more better than me..,
     
  22. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    OK, I think this will be the setup to work even at a tight track, but I will drive it there anyway and remove the wing. It only took 2sec off the GVS lap time anyway and is really good without it still. Once I drive it at Cita 'di Aria and approve of it shall I post the settings here?
     
  23. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    sure, why not?? are you planning to post it somewhere else??
     
  24. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    No, and I think you will like this tune. The only reason I'm doing this is to help you out, if you don't need this car anymore (which would be fine) then I won't bother posting at all.
     
  25. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    please do post it.., thank you very much.., :D
     
  26. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    Spoon Civic Type R (EK)
    (276hp) (200Nm)

    Parts to Buy:

    RC Exhaust
    RC Brakes
    Brake Balance Controller
    NA Tuning Stage 2
    Port Polish Heads
    Engine Balancing
    FC Gearbox
    Triple Clutch
    RC Flywheel
    FC LSD
    FC Suspension
    Racing Medium Tyres (or better if that is your wish)
    Do not buy rigidity increase
    Oil Change

    Settings:

    Brake Balance: 4/3

    Suspension:
    Spring Rates: 14.0/13.5
    Ride Height: 80/100
    Damper (Bound): 3/3
    Damper (Rebound): 7/7
    Camber: 3.0/1.8
    Toe: 0/-3
    Stabiliser: 4/5

    Gear Ratios: OK now pay attention here, I had to do alot to the gears to get 'em good enough and wide enough. First set to default settings, then do the transmission trick- max out the final drive to 5.500, then set autoset to 25, then set autoset back to 1. (That's the transmission trick remember) Then set final drive to 4.000. After that you set each individual gear to the following:
    1st: 3.899
    2nd: 2.882
    3rd: 2.293
    4th: 1.911
    5th: 1.622
    6th: 1.407

    And to recap your autoset should be 1 and your final drive 4.000. These gear settings make 1st and second extremely wide while keeping them all close together and in the exact range for top end you requested. I believe it starts redlining in 6th at 227km/hr.

    LSD:
    Initial: 20
    Acceleration: 50
    Deceleration: 5

    For me all driving aids were turned off. If you feel you need them that's up to you, but I highly recommend you turn them off too.

    Description: OK, this is the touge machine you always wanted. I drove it at Cita 'di Aria and it felt great still. A little bit of wheelspin in second so use just a fraction under full throttle but still very little wheelspin at all. At full throttle it can understeer a little but at 3/4 throttle it handles superbly always. If you can use the magnificent brakes to get the car halfway around a tight corner and then you can acclerate out. Going through the twistie downhill section of 'di Aria I actually got oversteer and can be spun if pushed past its limits over low speed bumps. I think you will enjoy this car, at Citi di Aria using the exact settings above I was getting mid-high 1'30 lap times. All that's left now is for you to experience it first hand.
     
  27. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    N4HS is the one I called a wimp. R3s. Hah.

    If I used them... Well, I'd have a hella good car.

    You want S3s or R2s, d24/7?
     
  28. nd 4 holden spd

    nd 4 holden spd (Banned)

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    See this RJ? He wanted race tyres from the very beginning so that's the type of tune I made. If I was using sports tyres my car, like Leo's, would use far less horespower. It's all about what the owner requests, not about what you want. That's customer service.
     
  29. Rotary Junkie

    Rotary Junkie Premium

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    Fine. I'll do two tunes if the S tire tune doesn't work well with R tires.
     
  30. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    i might not have the time to test this thing tonight, maybe tomorrow.., but thanks a lot anyway..,

    1:30 ?? you serious?? i couldn't get anywhere near 1:35 .., i even had TCS set to 2.., man, i need a lot of practice..,

    hmm, i can't remember requesting R3 tires.., but once i checked the old posts, yeah, i did.., :D :lol: i tend to forget some things quickly, sorry for that..,

    again, thanks for the setup.., :)