Red Bull RB10 launch
- Thread starter Roo
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- GTP_ZippyCat
No we don't, the German word works very well indeed.
But I'd take moderate issue with its application here, as it's bound up in the concept of luck. I don't think luck's involved. Renault was always the most likely of the three incumbent engine makers to produce a bum unit. The aero-centric 2009-13 ruleset allowed its customers to cover for the fact Renault's engines had major power and reliability deficits.
Renault's trouble stems from being a second-line manufacturer. Its top engineers no doubt are excellent, but you have to wonder about the depth of the lineup. When you look at the whole company, its strengths historically have been hot hatches that aren't quite as good as the competition's.
Merc by contrast is a world leader in powertrain and electronics. The new rules play to its core strength.
Once upon a time people were thinking Ferrari would be where the Renault teams are now. Clearly it hasn't played out that way and I suppose an indicator of why that's so would lie in the reliability of Ferrari's engines in the 2009-13 era. I'm having trouble thinking of any time Massa or Alonso had to retire over an engine fault.
And yet of all the manufacturers its Renault that's said to have pushed most strongly for the rules change. No, the word we're looking for isn't schadenfreude. It's hubris.
- 20,685
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I'd go with Ross Brawn's definition; luck is preparation awaiting opportunity... Renault haven't found the optimum power/weight build for the power unit, mainly because they haven't actually got it fully working or so it seems.
Some translations define "fortune" rather than "luck", they're not quite the same. All pedantry, obviously
On topic... I just read that Red Bull have managed just 176 laps over 9 days of testing. Williams ran 2/3 of that distance today alone.
Some translations define "fortune" rather than "luck", they're not quite the same. All pedantry, obviously
On topic... I just read that Red Bull have managed just 176 laps over 9 days of testing. Williams ran 2/3 of that distance today alone.
- 20,685
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
The only thing that can help Red Bull now is if some magical engine homologation extension happens.
"Renault has issued a statement regarding the request for an extension of the engine homologation deadline that is being discussed at the F1 strategy group this morning. It says: 'Renault is providing the reference Power Unit and appropriate supplementary material to the FIA, as per today's homologation deadline.
"There is a background request from some teams for alternative proposals (as will be discussed by the strategy group today) that regard some parts and components. However, the basic requirements of the homologation deadline will be delivered today as mandated by the FIA.' Renault declined to provide details of the proposals, or which parts they applied to."
If that happens then it is genuinely unfair, Renault are not a small private outfit struggling to match the big boys, they are a huge multinational builder of cars that you can keep chickens in.
@prisonermonkeys , apart from spraying cornflakes all over your laptop...what's your take on this? The non-Renault teams will only go for this if there's an advantage to them, but would they think that they'd rather make hay while the Renault's underperforming?
"Renault has issued a statement regarding the request for an extension of the engine homologation deadline that is being discussed at the F1 strategy group this morning. It says: 'Renault is providing the reference Power Unit and appropriate supplementary material to the FIA, as per today's homologation deadline.
"There is a background request from some teams for alternative proposals (as will be discussed by the strategy group today) that regard some parts and components. However, the basic requirements of the homologation deadline will be delivered today as mandated by the FIA.' Renault declined to provide details of the proposals, or which parts they applied to."
If that happens then it is genuinely unfair, Renault are not a small private outfit struggling to match the big boys, they are a huge multinational builder of cars that you can keep chickens in.
@prisonermonkeys , apart from spraying cornflakes all over your laptop...what's your take on this? The non-Renault teams will only go for this if there's an advantage to them, but would they think that they'd rather make hay while the Renault's underperforming?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
It is probably better for Formula 1 if they are open to giving Renault some leeway. A lot has been made of the new engine regulations, and for Renault to have completely screwed things up the way they have is a bit of a disaster because it means that over a third of the grid is under-powered and uncompetitive.
The worst-case scenario suggests that Renault will not be able to fully resolve their issues for twenty weeks, or until the British Grand Prix. That might be exaggerated, but it's clear that the problems will be fixed later, rather than sooner. Such concessions would allow Renault to fix the problem faster, but the Mercedes and Ferrari teams will still carry a massive advantage into the opening races of the season.
If they do not allow the scope for further development, they could also raise the ire of certain teams, namely Red Bull (and Toro Rosso, who will do whatever Red Bull do). Remember Mercedes' double-DRS? Christian Horner fought very hard to try and get the FIA to ban it, or force Mercedes to give up the system's secrets. The last thing Mercedes and Ferrari need is for Horner to try and hamstring them while they are still figuring everything out. There are still questions about Ferrari's turbo shield, and McLaren's rear suspension is highly interpretative of the rules. Horner could - and let's be honest, will - make a fuss over it to try and disrupt those teams. He would do it even if Renault's engine was the best on the grid, and he would pretend it was in the interests of the sport.
The worst-case scenario suggests that Renault will not be able to fully resolve their issues for twenty weeks, or until the British Grand Prix. That might be exaggerated, but it's clear that the problems will be fixed later, rather than sooner. Such concessions would allow Renault to fix the problem faster, but the Mercedes and Ferrari teams will still carry a massive advantage into the opening races of the season.
If they do not allow the scope for further development, they could also raise the ire of certain teams, namely Red Bull (and Toro Rosso, who will do whatever Red Bull do). Remember Mercedes' double-DRS? Christian Horner fought very hard to try and get the FIA to ban it, or force Mercedes to give up the system's secrets. The last thing Mercedes and Ferrari need is for Horner to try and hamstring them while they are still figuring everything out. There are still questions about Ferrari's turbo shield, and McLaren's rear suspension is highly interpretative of the rules. Horner could - and let's be honest, will - make a fuss over it to try and disrupt those teams. He would do it even if Renault's engine was the best on the grid, and he would pretend it was in the interests of the sport.
Dotini
(Banned)
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- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
(In testing at Bahrain,) Red Bull's inclusion in the top three that was of most interest, after Daniel Ricciardo was let loose on his final afternoon in the car and set a 1:35.743, 0.173s off Perez.
Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/147173.html#M3elIZ7xuPLeLLUV.99
Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/147173.html#M3elIZ7xuPLeLLUV.99
- 804
- GTP_ZippyCat
But Merc is in good shape, and I imagine their response will be to say, let Horner be Horner and we'll see you at the tribunal. Sometimes there's no point to trying to avoid a fight. This might be one of those times.
Edit: Today's running suggests the Red Bull might be podium-competitive. If the engine holds up. Which is the bigger question.
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- Hammerhead Garage
He doesn't need to get all of them. Just a few of them. If he protested against Ferrari's engines, that would hurt Ferrari and Sauber (and Marussia, but they're behind Red Bull). And if he protests McLaren, that's another two cars he can hurt. So he could cause problems for as many as six points-scoring cars. That would make life for Red Bull considerably easier, giving them the chance at vital points until Renault can fix the problem, thereby making their title bid stronger.
It's a bit like McLaren protesting against Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg at the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix. All three were found to have fuel that was too cool - but so did Nakajima, but the team never protested against him because he finished behind Hamilton whereas the other three finished in front of him.
I wouldn't get too carried away - they're still weeks behind everyone else. Most of the other teams have moved on from one-lap pace.
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- GTP_ZippyCat
I'm not. But until the checkered falls in Oz, no one really knows anything.
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I know this: Ricciardo's fastest time yesterday was two seconds off the fastest times set by Nico Rosberg. Almost everyone else has moved on from one-lap pace as the focus of their programme.
What I don't know is whether Ricciardo was lapping in the 1:35 bracket consistently, or if it was a one-off thing.
What I don't know is whether Ricciardo was lapping in the 1:35 bracket consistently, or if it was a one-off thing.
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- GTP_ZippyCat
Massa atop the timesheets today with a low 1:33. Now wouldn't that be a heckuva story if preseason form held?
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- Hammerhead Garage
That made my day.
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- Murica
- BasedAckbar
It seems the Renault engines are very reliable when they are turned off.
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- Hammerhead Garage
I know it's horrible to say this, but it harkens back to what I was saying earlier. Red Bull might deny any wrongdoing, but when people are celebrating their failures and feeling disappointed by their achievements (instead of the other way around), then something is very wrong.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Only if they survive the first five minutes after being turned off... they don't always
Red Bull are ahead of the game in some respects, yesterday's session showed that even if they can't complete laps they've had more practice than any other team at starting them.
If there are a large number of stoppages at Melbourne they could be in with a chance.
As @prisonermonkeys says, there's a reason why people are enjoying IBR's misfortunes more than you might think is sporting... and it's how fan-bases in sport work. IBR have been dominant but not-so-people-friendly. I personally think Vettel is astonishingly talented on his day and that IBR have done a great job in being as dominant as they have.
I haven't enjoyed it very much though
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- bramturismo
Like how Williams were dominating pre-season testing in 2009 and ultimately turned out to be yet another dissappointment?
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- GTP_SEMS
Roll on the first race, simply can not wait.
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- GOTMAXPOWER
Red Bull's annual animation, this one's good:
- 9,059
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
It didn't show the part where the engine fails.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
That's going to take another video entirely and double the size, so they can explain the various failures
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- GOTMAXPOWER
Look at 3:10
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
And when you play it with THE WIZARD OF OZ, you van hear Mark Webber laughing all the way to Porsche.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Pardon the double-post, but I just saw an interview with Vettel on the evening news - he was being interviewed while signing autographs, and his demeanour made Räikkönen look upbeat. He openly admitted he doesn't like the rules, and there was a very pregnant pause before he said "no". Maybe he was just irritated at being asked the same questions, or by being interviewed while signing autographs, but everyone else was fine with it (except Horner, who was a little evasive), and I would expect someone who has been in the sport for six years to be used to it.
His body language spoke volumes: he's not looking forward to this weekend. I have never seen him like that before - he looked rattled, like he wasn't in control.
His body language spoke volumes: he's not looking forward to this weekend. I have never seen him like that before - he looked rattled, like he wasn't in control.
- 20,685
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Hehehehehe.
I mean, gosh, that's awful.
This season could be the making of Vettel, I used to dislike Alonso intensely for the same reasons that I find Vettel difficult to like. Then, imo, Alonso "grew up" over the course of about 30 races. People started using the word "wily" instead of "feisty".
I think Vettel may do the same. Or he'll continue to seem like an obnoxious teen for the whole of his (no doubt very successful after 2014) career.
I mean, gosh, that's awful.
This season could be the making of Vettel, I used to dislike Alonso intensely for the same reasons that I find Vettel difficult to like. Then, imo, Alonso "grew up" over the course of about 30 races. People started using the word "wily" instead of "feisty".
I think Vettel may do the same. Or he'll continue to seem like an obnoxious teen for the whole of his (no doubt very successful after 2014) career.
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- Hammerhead Garage
According to Autosport, Vettel is looking back to Alonso's 2012 campaign for inspiration in bouncing back.
The problem is that Alonso has the ability to wring extra speed out of the car; he can adapt his style to get the most out of it. Vettel doesn't have that ability.
The problem is that Alonso has the ability to wring extra speed out of the car; he can adapt his style to get the most out of it. Vettel doesn't have that ability.
- 20,685
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
I agree, Vettel gets the car to a good place and controls the race. He doesn't seem to control the variables so well Alonso races a car out of a bad place until it has too few wheels to continue.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Yeah, one of the biggest criticisms levelled at him is his underwhelming ability to overtake. And with that comes untested mid-pack racing skills. Even when he took Webber by surprise in Malaysia, it took him half a lap to pull it off. Given the circumstances, you would expect him to get by at the first turn.
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- GTP_Anghammarad
Even though I'm no fan of Vettel I honestly hope that he will grow to become a more complete package this year. The driver who can race his way to the podium rather than just win from the front. Otherwise he will, a bit unjustly, always be remembered as the luckiest guy in motorsport for being in exactly the right place at the right time.
