Sexual Harassment

A straight male might undress and stand in front of a mirror examining his johnson but if he's asked to do it for a totally unnecessary scene that appears to be included only for the gratification of other people in the room then many might say that's wrong. The feeling amongst some was that the Hayek scene was included for gratification, not as a narrative contribution.



I think the point is that this was her first big feature and, like we're hearing from many in a similar position, saying no was presented as a career-killing option.



It's a hugely subjective question and there'll likely never be a definitive answer. You know it when you see it... but so does everybody, and not everybody agrees that they've seen it :)
The purpose of making commercially released movies is to make money. A nude Selma Hayek sells tickets. There's no such thing as gratuitous in that context.
 
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Another Matt Lauer "affair". 17 years ago Lauer start blatantly flirting with another staffer. She agrees to meet him for lunch but says now that it was for career advice because she was leaving the network for another position. He flirts with her at lunch, again mercilessly, they go back to the office and have consensual relations (her own admission) in a dressing room. Here's the rub. She now says she's a victim even though the relationship was consensual, because of the power dynamic. She was leaving and therefore good prey.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/wom...h-lauer-i-hope-you-wont-drag-me-to-personnel/
 
My cousin Karl says that an insidious cultural meme is displacing biology from driving culture, if I recall his words correctly. I'm still trying to grok what he's saying. Meanwhile, here's something apposite from The Federalist.


The #MeToo Movement Is Destroying Trust Between Men And Women
Like a disease, distrust is infecting our most foundational relationship as a people, the building block of a free, civil society—the relationship between men and women.


http://thefederalist.com/2017/12/13/metoo-movement-destroying-trust-men-women/
The breakdown of trust between the sexes is the tragic legacy of the modern feminist movement, but it has taken on a new fervor with the #MeToo campaign and the growing accusation that masculinity is vile, toxic, and inherently predatorial. Fear of men is legitimized, as accusation is treated as fact. Men are seen as “the enemy,” an embodied deviance that must be remolded into the image of a woman. Their sexuality is assumed to be naturally brutal, a threat to be controlled and reduced for the individual man to be considered “safe.”

While women’s willingness to hold men accountable for criminal sexual behavior is to be applauded, the scorched-earth approach we are seeing today is destructive because it undermines trust. When anything from a naive touch during a photo shoot to an innocent attempt at a kiss is compared to rape and sexual abuse, we are not healing society but infecting relationships with the poison of distrust.

Whether it’s in the workplace, church, or home, the interaction between a man and a woman is unique and primary to all other relationships. When a breakdown of trust happens there, when fear of the other sex becomes generalized, society simply can’t thrive.
 
Ok, this one seems interesting: http://people.com/movies/harvey-weinstein-salma-hayek-statement/

Can pressuring a female star to do a revealing sex scene in a movie constitute sexual harassment? That's a toughie. It's relevant to the product and to sales of the product. And yet... there is an element of "you're a woman, so I can pressure you to do this and get away with it" to it.

Are the scenes in b-movies where now-famous actresses remove their clothes... once... to make it big... and then never again, visual records of women succumbing to sexual harassment?

I'd argue no, that it's not sexual harassment because it's relevant to the product being sold. But I'm more than willing to admit that this is easily distasteful. This is the problem with Hollywood though, and part of the reason that sexual harassment has been harbored there. It's such a grey area. When are you making fine cinema and when are you making a porn movie? There's a straight spectrum from Barney to Debbie Does Dallas with no clear-cut breaks in between except where they have been arbitrarily (badly) placed by the MPAA.

That seems like something that would be in the contract for the film. If you're doing a sex scene, you should be at the very least attempting to get paid extra for it and so it should be specified.

If it's not specified, then either it's time for renegotiations or you walk. If a director or story writer or whoever wants nudity or sex scenes in their film that's totally acceptable, and as an actor or actress you're well within your rights to choose to take part or not. I'm not sure pressure even comes into it, if one can't turn down a job offer cleanly (especially an actress like Salma Hayek who had already established her career at that point) then you need to get an agent that can do it for you.

Honestly, people are going to have a vision of what actors or actresses they want in their films and so they're going to be aggressive about trying to pursue the right people. But I think at some point an actor or actress needs to be able to stand up for themselves. Bullying someone into a one off sexual situation I can buy, but you can't bully someone into spending months of their lives making a movie that they're not comfortable with.

I think the point is that this was her first big feature and, like we're hearing from many in a similar position, saying no was presented as a career-killing option.

Iffy. She was already pretty successful beforehand. Saying no might have shut her out of Hollywood, but she wasn't going to be starving under a bridge. If someone asks you to do something shady or uncomfortable, I think that's the point that you start asking yourself how far do you go for your career.
 
- I generally don't care unless a kid was involved, if kid involved auto life in prison or death penalty. Adults are responsible for their own actions or lack there off, like NOT going to the freaking police. Why not come out earlier, police laws etcetera. I distrust the reasoning or validity.

- Too much seems like crying wolf, i'd bet more often than not they willingly did things I have no sympathy for them.

- I always thought of hollywood is full of pedos sex freaks sluts and psychopaths types at the top. I don't find all this at all surprising.


Would care more if actual Charges are made in court and police arrest the people vics give depositions and statements whatever.

To accuse, lacks facts lacks proof.
 
If someone asks you to do something shady or uncomfortable, I think that's the point that you start asking yourself how far do you go for your career.
Really easy to say for someone else, long after the fact, but put yourself in that position as a young actress. Is it really so hard to see being pressured by someone like that, with all that's come out (you're not blessed with this hindsight, but it should inform this scenario) about him? It's unlikely you're as confident then as you are now, decades later, regardless how "established" you are.
 
Really easy to say for someone else, long after the fact, but put yourself in that position as a young actress. Is it really so hard to see being pressured by someone like that, with all that's come out (you're not blessed with this hindsight, but it should inform this scenario) about him? It's unlikely you're as confident then as you are now, decades later, regardless how "established" you are.
It's a side argument, but holding someone's career hostage in exchange for sex would also be a crime in and of itself, extortion in fact. I believe I read something about California making extorting for sex an specific offense under California law recently.
 
- I generally don't care unless a kid was involved, if kid involved auto life in prison or death penalty. Adults are responsible for their own actions or lack there off, like NOT going to the freaking police. Why not come out earlier, police laws etcetera. I distrust the reasoning or validity.

- Too much seems like crying wolf, i'd bet more often than not they willingly did things I have no sympathy for them.

- I always thought of hollywood is full of pedos sex freaks sluts and psychopaths types at the top. I don't find all this at all surprising.


Would care more if actual Charges are made in court and police arrest the people vics give depositions and statements whatever.

To accuse, lacks facts lacks proof.
Terry Crews has a timely tweet about that:
LAPD task force detectives let me know these people [i.e. sexual predators in Hollywood] don’t play fair. There are a lot of secrets to protect, and they will do anything to keep them.

These predators have ample means to retaliate against any of their victims who feel like speaking out.
 
Really easy to say for someone else, long after the fact, but put yourself in that position as a young actress. Is it really so hard to see being pressured by someone like that, with all that's come out (you're not blessed with this hindsight, but it should inform this scenario) about him? It's unlikely you're as confident then as you are now, decades later, regardless how "established" you are.

Depends on the situation. Like I said, as a young actress in a hotel room with a movie mogul I could totally see being pressured.

But when you're talking about a scene in a movie, with negotiations and the ability to go away and talk with your friends and agent and others, I think it's different. Perhaps some people would still feel pressured in that situation, but I feel like if you don't have the ability to say no there then you would probably find it hard to turn down a chicken sandwich.

The main difference is that it's not necessarily all on Ms. Hayek to make the call. She can get advice. She can have a negotiator work for her (she was successful enough that I'd be shocked if she didn't have representation at that point). She can talk to other actresses about their thoughts on it. Any number of totally sensible and reasonable things, instead of "this makes me super uncomfortable but I guess that's just the way it is".

I get that it's hard when you're talking to someone who is offering you a job and so is nominally at least in a position of power, but ultimately you're totally able to walk away. A job negotiation is NOT a one way street. If you don't want to walk, then it's at least in your interest to inform yourself and make a little effort to balance the situation instead of simply bending over.

It's a side argument, but holding someone's career hostage in exchange for sex would also be a crime in and of itself, extortion in fact. I believe I read something about California making extorting for sex an specific offense under California law recently.

And I think this is where it largely comes down to the shadiness of how the sexual activities are approached. If a porn producer asks an actress to do a demo scene before signing her onto a part, that's straight up asking to see a demonstration of ability before hiring. If a movie producer wants a sex scene and asks to see an actress naked before hiring, I don't see a problem with that either. As long as it's all out in the open and agreed to, as far as I'm concerned a producer can make it a condition of hiring that an actress also has sex with him. And I would hope that anyone that was uncomfortable with that would tell him to sod off.

The problem comes with people like Weinstein trying to slip stuff under the table, as it were. Stuff that wasn't openly agreed to, and stuff where actresses (or actors) are placed into compromising situations where they have to make immediate decisions without the opportunity for consideration or discussion with their peers. But I feel like Salma Hayek making a movie with nudity is not exactly "under the table". The entire cast and crew can see it happening, but unless Ms. Hayek says something everyone will assume that it was consensual.

It feels awfully like the domestic violence victims who shelter and defend their abusers. Yeah, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be in that situation, but nobody can help if you don't let them know that there's something wrong.
 
We got another one, I swear these old people are some pervs...

The owner of the NFL Carolina Panthers will sell the team at the end of the year after allegations including asking women to "wiggle" in front of him or shave their legs.

Has asking become sexual harassment? Seems like you can't even talk to a woman nowadays...

Link when I get home.
 
This one is going to be interesting: http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/17/l...ual-assault-against-woman-who-worked-for-her/
The inspiration behind the Women’s March on DC, Linda Sarsour, has been accused of enabling the alleged sexual assault and harassment of a woman who worked for the feminist activist, according to the victim and two sources directly familiar with the matter. Allegations of groping and unwanted touching were allegedly brought to Sarsour during her time as executive director of the Arab American Association. In response, Sarsour, a self-proclaimed champion of women, attacked the woman bringing the allegations, often threatening and body-shaming her, these sources alleged. The most serious allegations were dismissed, Asmi Fathelbab, the alleged victim told The Daily Caller, because the accused was a “good Muslim” who was “always at the Mosque.”
 

If the allegations are true then they would amount to a campaign of slander and harassment going back over ten years. They would also involve the other senior figures named in the Daily Caller report. The only problem right now is that every story covering these claims is sourced from that one daily caller report and there doesn't seem to be a primary source.

I agree it could be interesting - so far allegations of sexual 'corruption' or facilitation have mostly centred around male-led organisations, if truth is found in these new claims then it will illustrate that it can happen anywhere.
 
So far it's a single source apparently and if it remains a single source, how seriously will it be taken? If it's actually more pervasive in that organization, what effect will the religious angle have on the willingness of people to come forward and on the outcome? It's also seems to be as much about a charge of creating an environment that supported harassment vs. the harassment itself. There are several twists that make it more complicated but at the same time open up a broader discussion about the harassment issue.
 
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After a 12 year legal battle... pretty sad in my mind!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...pology-liane-tessier-discrimination-1.4453428

And for those wondering why I posted this here... if you can't have sexual equality in the workplace first, you won't be able to target or combat sexual harassment either.

Cheers

This put me in mind of a TV drama I watched earlier, it was from the 90s and two police officers (female) were attending a call in realistic of-the-time uniforms... cravats, skirts and regulation handbags. It makes one realise how recently a sense of equality has come to some institutions.
 
Stephen Henderson of the Detroit Free Press was fired a couple of days ago. Based on what I've read so far (this is a local story to me, I've listened to Mr. Henderson occasionally on the local NPR affiliate for many years), to me the consequences are way, way, way out of proportion to the level of "harassment" involved. I put harassment in quotes on purpose because, IMO, the allegations involved do not constitute harassment and have cost a respected, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist his job and likely his career should the allegations and his termination stick. I'll put a link to the story below and in it is the full response of Mr. Henderson to the allegations and his subsequent firing. Ostensibly he was fired for asking a woman on a date twice, a woman who worked in a different department to Mr. Henderson, because being asked out on a date made her "uncomfortable". The other allegation is that he had a sexually themed conversation with another employee, outside of work, in a social situation. Both allegations happened many years ago. Neither employee made any complaint or came forward until unsubstantiated allegations were made by a local minister, and neither woman wants to take any action. Mr Henderson encouraged both women, with whom he has maintained good working relationships, to come forward. As far as I can tell he never exposed himself, never touched anyone, never tried to extort anyone and never pursued anyone.
Source

After hearing about Mr. Henderson's firing, the local minister had this to say:
In a phone call following word of Henderson's firing, Rideout said he wanted to see Henderson removed from all of his roles.

"What he’s done over there he’ll do it anywhere," Rideout says. "If you're a predator in one place you'll be a predator somewhere else.

"If you’re a predator at the news you'll be a predator at the McDonalds," he contines. "If I was a baby rapist I don’t care about where I rape babies, I just go around raping babies."
Source

Something is definitely amiss with this story.
 
It'll be interesting to see whether WDET find nothing wrong with Henderson's conduct as seems likely from the article above. Also the result of any legal action he should take against DFP and/or Rideout. To me "baby rapist" sounds like extremely prejudicial language to use when discussing someone who asked a grown woman out on a date and flirted with another, inappropriately or otherwise.
 
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To me "baby rapist" sounds like extremely prejudicial language to use when discussing someone who asked a grown woman out on a date and flirting with another, inappropriately or otherwise.

Unreal. Asking someone on a date is equivalent to raping babies. I never knew. On the other hand, if no one ever goes on dates there will be no babies at all. What a dilemma.

Me rather thinks that the "Free Press" has their heads too far up their own backsides to be able to apply even a modicum of rational thought. Rational people do not fire others for what is at best a minor indiscretion. A mild talking to, or perhaps a warning if the victim really feels shook up about it. Termination? Wtf? Am I even on the same planet as these people or am I picking up broadcasts from Vega Minor again?
 
It'll be interesting to see whether WDET find nothing wrong with Henderson's conduct as seems likely from the article above. Also the result of any legal action he should take against DFP and/or Rideout. To me "baby rapist" sounds like extremely prejudicial language to use when discussing someone who asked a grown woman out on a date and flirted with another, inappropriately or otherwise.
WDET has kept him on but opened a full investigation.

Unreal. Asking someone on a date is equivalent to raping babies. I never knew. On the other hand, if no one ever goes on dates there will be no babies at all. What a dilemma.

Me rather thinks that the "Free Press" has their heads too far up their own backsides to be able to apply even a modicum of rational thought. Rational people do not fire others for what is at best a minor indiscretion. A mild talking to, or perhaps a warning if the victim really feels shook up about it. Termination? Wtf? Am I even on the same planet as these people or am I picking up broadcasts from Vega Minor again?
Either there is much more to this story than revealed so far or the Free Press is dramatically over reacting. It's hard to see it any other way.
 
WDET has kept him on but opened a full investigation.
I know, that's why I'm waiting for the result of the investigation to see whether they find nothing wrong with his conduct. It sounds like it'd be a big surprise were this to be the case given what we know so far. If so it sounds like he has firm grounds for the legal action he said he's considering in the article.
 
Either there is much more to this story than revealed so far or the Free Press is dramatically over reacting. It's hard to see it any other way.

I've seen companies use similar things to get rid of employees that are either overpaid or just plain not liked by management before. Which I think is kind of horse bollocks, but it could well be something like what's happening here.
 
I've seen companies use similar things to get rid of employees that are either overpaid or just plain not liked by management before. Which I think is kind of horse bollocks, but it could well be something like what's happening here.
Whereabouts does the crazy preacher come into it?
 
Whereabouts does the crazy preacher come into it?

He's part of the Illuminati conspiracy to undermine and discredit all those who have seen the truth. He was born John Thomas Edgeways Jr., and after being bombarded with chemtrails as a child he became their willing pawn. However, little do they know that he's actually an alien-human hybrid plant, who the aliens intend to use in their campaign to win the next US Presidency, riding the wave of insane protectivism that seems to be riding the coattails of some long awaited actual consequences for sexual offenders. His candidacy will falter when it comes to light that he's actually been raping human children and turning them into omelettes, but ultimately the American voters will decide that his wild promises made with no real backing are too engaging to overlook just because he slipped little Willy the willy.

The crazy thing is that you're the only one that can read this. All the other users just see another random Imari post about how the preacher was likely just a religious zealot who felt like he had a shot at taking someone down. But I knew you would understand the truth. I can't take risks with the others, but you I can trust. Do with this information what you will.
 
Not sure, much of what's been subsequently disclosed doesn't seem to have come from the preacher. I'm wondering if he has some other axe to grind with this reporter?
It certainly sounds like he's going to extremes to discredit this guy for some reason. Not sure whether that makes me a conspiracist or not.
 
I got the reply notification and glanced at the reply itself, quickly determining the entire post wasn't worth reading as it was just more of the same "I just don't see it" sentiment. Moments ago, however, in scrolling past I caught a glimpse of the bit at the end:

It feels awfully like the domestic violence victims who shelter and defend their abusers. Yeah, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be in that situation, but nobody can help if you don't let them know that there's something wrong.

You get that abusers don't play fair, right? I've never seen a case of physical abuse that wasn't accompanied by fistfuls of verbal abuse wherein the abuser puts blame on their victim. They beat that blame into them. Not only that, but you're unlikely to encounter a situation where the abuser doesn't threaten further harm should the recipient of their abuse seek help, and those recipients have reason to take these threats seriously as the majority of abuse victims to die at the hands of their abuse do so while in some stage of escape. Abusers are also known to separate their victims from friends and any other support network--an area where I've worked--which already isn't nearly as accessible as it needs to be.

So why do victims defend their abusers? Their lives depend on it.
 
I got the reply notification and glanced at the reply itself, quickly determining the entire post wasn't worth reading as it was just more of the same "I just don't see it" sentiment. Moments ago, however, in scrolling past I caught a glimpse of the bit at the end:



You get that abusers don't play fair, right? I've never seen a case of physical abuse that wasn't accompanied by fistfuls of verbal abuse wherein the abuser puts blame on their victim. They beat that blame into them. Not only that, but you're unlikely to encounter a situation where the abuser doesn't threaten further harm should the recipient of their abuse seek help, and those recipients have reason to take these threats seriously as the majority of abuse victims to die at the hands of their abuse do so while in some stage of escape. Abusers are also known to separate their victims from friends and any other support network--an area where I've worked--which already isn't nearly as accessible as it needs to be.

So why do victims defend their abusers? Their lives depend on it.

No they don't. Not unless they've literally been held prisoner.

The whole thing is an illusion, and it's the illusion that's the problem. The illusion that their lives depend on it. The illusion that they're worthless, that the perpetrator is all-powerful, that they're ultimately to blame for all of it. Some of them may be under the illusion that they are hostages, and until they risk everything (in their minds), they'll stay that way. but @Imari is right that there is literally nothing anyone can do if they won't accuse the people who have committed crimes against them. The injured party is the one who has to at least claim that they did not consent.
 
The whole thing is an illusion, and it's the illusion that's the problem. The illusion that their lives depend on it.
There's no smoke, there are no mirrors. There's internal bleeding, there are broken bones. The problem is the harmful and downright stupid assumption that it's all in the victims' heads, that it's just a simple matter of coming forward, of saying something. Society fails victims. I've seen individuals in the best position to help victims fail them instead because of the assumption that if they were truly in a dangerous relationship, they'd just leave it. "Oh, you just want attention." "You depend on them? Get a job. Stop being lazy." "You must have done something to deserve it." The abusers aren't the only ones feeding the victims' belief that they're to blame.
 
There's no smoke, there are no mirrors. There's internal bleeding, there are broken bones.


I don't know what this is trying to accomplish. Do you think I'm not aware that people get beaten by their spouses?

The problem is the harmful and downright stupid assumption that it's all in the victims' heads, that it's just a simple matter of coming forward, of saying something. Society fails victims. I've seen individuals in the best position to help victims fail them instead because of the assumption that if they were truly in a dangerous relationship, they'd just leave it. "Oh, you just want attention." "You depend on them? Get a job. Stop being lazy." "You must have done something to deserve it." The abusers aren't the only ones feeding the victims' belief that they're to blame.

Are you talking about the police? Because... that's what I'm talking about. Internal bleeding/broken bones = 911, police, incarceration, restraining orders. Is it possible for someone to be victimized without receiving justice? Absolutely. Does it happen often enough that they should think twice about going to the cops? Absolutely not. You make it sound as though it's the safe thing to do for these people to not seek help.

It's an illusion. The control you're talking about (other than actual physical imprisonment) in our society is an illusion. You cannot falsely imprison someone in the united states, it is a crime, it will land you in jail. You cannot beat someone (innocent) in the united states, it is a crime, it will land you in jail. The only way this control works is if the people it is being inflicted on believe otherwise.
 
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