Should PD Just Scrap the Penalty System Altogether?

[FloridaFanGT]

They've had almost 3 years to develop a good penalty system. PD gets no pass from me. They need to make a version of iRacing's penalty system, because it's consistent. Also, it's beyond time to turn on heavy damage in the online modes. There needs to be a deterrent for bad driving.

 

[05XR8]

They've had almost 3 years to develop a good penalty system. PD gets no pass from me. They need to make a version of iRacing's penalty system, because it's consistent. Also, it's beyond time to turn on heavy damage in the online modes. There needs to be a deterrent for bad driving.

Another thing about the bad driving and heavy damage. Who is most likely to quit the game first, a dirty driver that punts a clean player while both have heavy damage or the clean player who receives the heavy damage?

Whoever quits, doesn't their ranking lower quicker, than say a player that finishes last?

 

[sevetyone]

I'm still fairly new to online racing , and don't really know about past penalty systems but at the moment I'm avoiding all daily races , they are just unfair to anyone who is just trying to drive cleanly.
Hopefully as posted here and elsewhere it will get fixed then we can get better cleaner and more enjoyable racing.
I don't even mind finishing in last place if it's clean , and not to loose too many DR points to drivers pushing people off track.

 

[OxMontalvo]

Bad idea. Only two months ago, when there was no bumping penalty system in place, people started to bump preemptively. Basicly, because they saw everyone else buy toiletpaper, eh, bump their way trough the field, they started to bump their way trough the field. People just wipe you out in the very first until the very last corner, just because they can.

 

[barak181]

I don't think the game is capable of correctly assigning fault for an incident, it’s been well over 2 years now and it’s still handing out pens to the wrong cars. Makes me think it’s not possible to get it right at this point.

I think they should hire @Voodoovaj to write a penalty system.

 

[breeminator]

I voted no, because we're already seeing what happens with the current system where you can dive down the inside without fear of a penalty. Everyone is diving down the inside and not caring if they ram the car they're passing. Turning the system off wouldn't stop this, because there's already no penalty for doing it.

I'd rather have a game mode that doesn't require a penalty system, like ghost racing or a time trial mode like I suggested here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/poll-a-time-trial-version-of-fia-races.392610/
but it seems only 3 other people would enjoy being able to race without being rammed.

 

[Cherryturbo]

We are all aware of both Driver Ranking (DR) and Sportsmanship Ranking (SR). It is my belief that the publishing of these rankings, primarily DR, seems to motivate people to try to climb the ziggurat as a way of demonstrating their dominance over fellow competitors. In real world racing, to my knowledge, no such ranking system exists. Yes their are different classes but to drive in them requires tests of competence either on a one-off basis or periodically. The only rankings in evidence are tables of results or points gained within championships.


It is this player categorisation that encourages people to improve their standing. As we are playing a game, history shows that gamers will use every tool available to increase their standing if the game software allows it. If we think we are inhabiting a world full of “gentleman drivers” as opposed to “cutthroat gamers” then current evidence appears to confirm that we are sadly mistaken. The forums are full of proof that this behaviour also encourages usually fair minded people to become righteous vigilantes under the excuse of “they had it coming”. Do we really think that hardcore gamers will become instantly reformed?

I am not saying that rankings should be removed. What I am suggesting is that they be calculated by the publishers solely to provide equitable matching for online races. These “numbers” should not be made public and that includes API interrogation software. Yes, people will still try to win but only to celebrate that in itself rather than an increase in a fictitious ranking.

However, this will only work if there are both an equitable matching process and a robust penalty system that discourages poor on track behaviour. If such a penalty system exists then surely it would be in place by now? I am sure that PD/Sony would have implemented such a system if the server side software allowed it. It clearly doesn’t so we will always have some form of compromise system. Perhaps the developers/publishers could seek player input to any such system? Both now and in the future.

Just my 1d.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

No penalty system did work better in the higher lobbies. Not so sure if it did any good at lower ranks, or if it was simply that people were still getting used to the lack of penalties. The penalties are now mostly wrong, but even more often don't trigger and retaliation strikes happen all the time. So although I voted yes, I fear that there's no going back to that week of awesome racing right after the penalties turned off.

Perhaps split the server again. Less lag means less incidents. The problem then was that there were not enough people in SR.S to get decent matchmaking. That's not a problem anymore with the lack of penalties and SR Downs.

Or go back to SR Down for contact, doesn't matter with what. Touch something, SR Down, cars, walls, sand, grass, pit entry/exit line, and see where SR takes us.

 

[die996]

Should you stop breathing altogether? If you think we don't need the penalty system, you might have to stop wasting clean air

 

[Stencedaddy]

Should you stop breathing altogether? If you think we don't need the penalty system, you might have to stop wasting clean air

k.

 

[NosOsH]

I think they should hire @Voodoovaj to write a penalty system.

Agreed, that dude has seen some races...
Him and SvennoJ
Probably the most experienced players on this shiznat

 

[Tea_Leaves]

Voted no because I think there needs to be a consequence for dirty behavior and driving. Why have stewards at World Tours or in real racing? Same kind of thing although it's an AI replacement.

People will otherwise not learn how to race clean and be unable to differentiate between what's right or wrong. It can also spawn the mindset of "punting is okay, I'm not punished for it" and gradually turn into a contamination for the rest of the community to follow. Nobody is expecting perfection (human stewards can be wrong too) but with a system running to an acceptable standard in assigning correct penalties, I believe that's a way forward.

While 1.52 had glaring issues, it was nowhere near bad as today's where it's barge to pass and give the outside driver a penalty. The volume of complaints and posts was also a lot less than recent iterations. Shared fault/1.13 was on the harsher end of the spectrum but it made me a much cleaner driver by improving my awareness and taught me that contact is bad and to respect other drivers. It would had been fine if toned down a little.

Sadly, I think it's unlikely PD will rollback the system to an earlier revision as a matter of "pride" and to show they wasn't wrong in their decision to release the current mess.

 

[rono_thomas]

Does anybody remember quick race in GT6 - if you don’t, it’s understandable why you would contemplate turning the pen system off. Even a broken penalty system has it’s benefits.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Does anybody remember quick race in GT6 - if you don’t, it’s understandable why you would contemplate turning the pen system off. Even a broken penalty system has it’s benefits.

I do, I remember. Must have been 1,000 races or so. Not once I felt pissed off like I did in Sport Mode !

 

[George Jakob]

that only works when the drivers you race with are clean to start off with.

And that is GT Sport's biggest flaw in my opinion. PD created a noble concect but they made the very naive mistake assuming people would race within the rules PD should be blamed 100% however at the end of the day its an algorithm if someone wants to punt you they will no matter what.

Kinda amazes me how more people prefer penalties over heavy damage.
You would think people might prefer a more realistic approach in sim racing to real racing.

I can think two ressons of why they don't .
1. Most GT players are casuals and 2. Without damage i may be punted in the next world but i will be able to continue whille with heavy damage on is instant game over in most cases for all involved but thats just my opinion.

 

[Timlour]

I can think two ressons of why they don't .
1. Most GT players are casuals and 2. Without damage i may be punted in the next world but i will be able to continue whille with heavy damage on is instant game over in most cases for all involved but thats just my opinion.

I think the main reason people are calling for heavy damage is that they prefer no drivers benefitting from a wreck over the aggressor benefitting.

Regarding damage, I'd suggest keeping it on Light, but making the damage model as sensitive as Heavy - drivers would get damaged more easily but the damage would recover just the same. That's just a suggestion though, not sure if it would actually work in practice.

 

[Redneckchef]

I have to say that I voted no on the issue, but that is based on my lobbies when it was pretty much turned off. Down in my mid level lobbies, DR mid B at SR 99 there was within a few days a drastic change in style. There was no consideration of space, and it became a tactic for many people to pass with an attitude of 'if I make contact it is going to count.' End result of this was that fairly quickly people were driving super defensively into turns, nearly brake-checking everyone in preparation for contact and any attempt at a pass that looked like there was a better than 50pct chance at contact ended in a punt. You know, just so they don't get a chance to retaliate.

Drivers I used to have good races with and who we were all quite respectable and honorable with all of a sudden spent every race in vengeance mode. More than a few times I got blasted off track when I made a mistake that ended up with contact and I tried to pull over to let the person back by. I can understand the goal of those who have the ability to police the lobbies, but I just didnt have the skill or killer instinct for it.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Scrapping the penalty system entirely will ensure anarchy in every race. Yes, it can be frustrating when you get an unfair penalty, but there have been occasions where the penalties do go to the right driver. When the collision penalties were removed, everything went to poo. People hellbent on causing trouble were rewarded for their bullying, and clean drivers paid the price. Keep the penalties.

 

[splitwindow]

The current system needs to be scrapped asap, but it's a no from me to having nothing at all.
A couple of months back was a "relatively" workable system when compared to a lot of the other junk we've had.
While it's already been mentioned, I think it's a hand in hand thing that needs to coexist with a better sorted SR system as well.
People shouldn't be able to game their way straight to SR99 with one or two trail the field race C's, and those who consistently race clean shouldn't find themselves back in rank A because they get caught up in just one game of pin ball at BMB for instance.

 

[Jagman XK8]

My view is there must be a penalty system to deter the dirty dive-bombers and side swipers.

However, the current system is broken to the extent that clean drivers are being penalised excessively at the hands of these nutters, who are allowed to gain higher positions unscathed. Those who try and play the game fairly are losing DR and SR points and it's very demoralising to be demoted back to the lower ranks and struggle to progress upwards.

So, my vote is YES until the system has the ability to punish the hitter. As I said on the other thread about this, in the real world on our roads the car which crashes into the back of another is invariably at fault and it must be possible for PD to develop a system based on this.

 

[pantherjag]

I voted no as they have had penalty systems in the past that in my opinion were functional.

- Revert back to penalty system before update 1.53. It wasnt perfect but caught the blatant stuff like rear end punts and pushes of the track.

- revert back to SR "scoring system" before update 1.53 where maintaining a SR in the 90's actually took some consideration. If you cant prevent dive bombers then at least this system ment they were destined to be mired in low SR lobbies with each other rather than courteous drivers.

- Change slipstream to be effective only from under 1 second or reduce strength by 50% if keeping at 1.5.

The above changes which could be introduced almost instantly would in my opinion eliminate a lot of the issues.

 

[Jagman XK8]

I've given some further thought to this and hope my comments below will be considered 'on topic' and hopefully they will be read by the game developers.

My daughter bought me GT Sport for Xmas 2018 and I spent the following 6-9 months progressing through the driving school, challenges and track challenges. I was reluctant to go online and end up being totally embarrassed until I'd achieved Gold standard in all the above. I was bought a trial 1 month subscription for online last Xmas and was pleasantly surprised that I could compete favourably with others and that I managed to actually win a race within the first couple of days.

The point I'm making is that once you've done all the stuff above and won on all the tracks in arcade mode to professional standard, online racing against real people is the only way to go in order to maintain interest, but that element must be fit for purpose and enjoyable. This thread and the other stating that the penalty system is a pile of **** clearly demonstrates that it's far from right and that dedicated racers are voting with their feet.

It will be interesting to see what the next iteration of the game will look like, but my opinion is that there is little point in giving the user all the elaborate fancy graphics in the world, if the online element is fundamentally rubbish. I have a 4K PS4 / TV and the existing game looks pretty impressive as it stands, so surely we must be starting to enter the realms of diminishing returns, where there is minimal additional bang for the buck. Personally, I would not consider buying a PS5, or the next generation of this game until the obvious flaws are rectified.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

If Polyphony suddenly decided to get rid of penalties altogether, what boundaries would be there to stop unsportsmanlike conduct? I'm not just talking about contact - track limits, corner cutting, jump starts, etc. would end up going unchecked, and I feel that GT Sport handles those latter infringements fairly well for the most part.

For that reason, plus the fact that it is still possible to enjoy clean, close racing without being messed up by penalties (as my screenshot below proves), I'm voting 'No'. Despite the imperfections and regular changes being applied to the penalty system, I have enjoyed plenty of exciting and fair races in GT Sport, and still consider it to be one of my favourite games for online multiplayer. The last thing I want is for Sport Mode to irreversibly devolve into a Wreckfest-style free-for-all, and if Polyphony can revert the system to a pre-1.53 state, that would be grand for all of us.

 

[super_gt]

Another thing about the bad driving and heavy damage. Who is most likely to quit the game first, a dirty driver that punts a clean player while both have heavy damage or the clean player who receives the heavy damage?

From my experience in GT5/6 racing online in rooms with heavy damage the dirty driver will leave first. They usually enter, trying one or at most two races, crash at the beginning or middle of the race, and leave the room immediately. The clean player will lose one race but after that there will be many clean and fun races. If PD introduce heavy damage, the beginning will be pretty rough, but after a few months people will get used to that change and they will start having fun.

 

[breeminator]

in the real world on our roads the car which crashes into the back of another is invariably at fault and it must be possible for PD to develop a system based on this.

This is a common misconception. It's only in the absence of evidence that a car that hits the rear of another car is usually deemed most at fault. If there is evidence of what happened, e.g. a video recording, then the car in front can be found to be 100% at fault, depending on what exactly they did.

 

[im_not_batman]

Voted No. While the penalty system is totally borked right now, I've a bit of a problem of having self regulated races. I've had a few decent races ruined where I've been punted off in retaliation for perceived dirty driving (I'm far from a Dirty Driver).

One instance springs to mind at Monza where I had to avoid a slow car, I didn't quite see the guy on my rear left and unintentional swiped him. He didn't spin out or go off, but still felt the need to punt me twice (once was fair enough)and squeeze me off another time.

With a working penalty system I'd take my time punishment for the mistake, offer a handshake afterwards and move on. But of course that's contingent on working system...

 

[SYZUKI]

Simple question, Would you rather the Penalty System be just flat out be removed from the game at this point? PD can’t seem to get it right, so why bother even having it at all. The best racing we had was when it was turned off completely a few months back. Supposedly PD reads these forums, so if we can get enough votes, maybe they will actually make a change.

This is not a thread for complaining about the PS, we already have a thread for that. So let’s try to stay on topic here. Don’t forget to vote.

This has been a terrible update. How can I get a seven second penalty when off the gas and then smashed from behind?
Please fix so it is fair or remove it. It’s spoiling the game!!

 

[Aiado]

Or they could do like the non-contact races in GTA and make other cars ghost-like so collisions can't happen.

 

[Jagman XK8]

This is a common misconception. It's only in the absence of evidence that a car that hits the rear of another car is usually deemed most at fault. If there is evidence of what happened, e.g. a video recording, then the car in front can be found to be 100% at fault, depending on what exactly they did.

Yes, there will be instances where the driver in front has braked irrationally and caused a collision, but the onus does lie on the car behind to leave a safe distance between the two. With GTS, there will be no witnesses, so assumptions will have to be made and given the ramming / punting which happens, I'm merely suggesting that the car behind is deemed at fault. At the moment it's the other way round and the good guys are being penalised.

 

[breeminator]

With GTS, there will be no witnesses, so assumptions will have to be made and given the ramming / punting which happens, I'm merely suggesting that the car behind is deemed at fault.

The game has perfect knowledge of what happened, so it's analogous to the scenario in real life where there were witnesses / video evidence.