So what's new Physics wise?

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I find the wheel you have has a big influence on wether you can save the car or even drift. My DFGT feels so slow. When I watch G25/G27 users they can spin the wheel around much faster

Unless your able to reduce the number of degrees, DFP and Fanatec users get this.
 
Aye - my G25 sadly died within hours of being hooked up to the PS3 :(. I am using a very worn old DFP and it has a pronounced 'dead spot' in the centre of the range, which means that I have to be very careful how much lock I put on into fast corners :lol:.
 
What I want to know is whether buying a Thrustmaster 500; the 'new' supported wheel (as G25/27 apparently have only 👎 minimum support?) will result in a different experience when it comes to GT5 physics?

Kaz?
 
Playing GT5 back to back with iRacing - to test the squash ball under the brake pedal mod (which works rather well!) - GT5's force feedback and physics is not a miles apart from iRacing at all. GT5 even has all the bumps and chatter like iRacing, depending on the car off course. Some tracks and cars have it more so then others, stiffer suspensions will feel it more.

Both games feel quite similar
 
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Yesterday I was playing around with some cars, and I noticed that low speed tire physics probably need some serious improvement. It's currently impossible to start a car slowly without making the tires slip a bit. This is so noticeable that it's possible to hear a slipping sound. Also, on slopes, the car always drifts (in varying amounts) a bit to the lower side of the road when starting, no matter how slowly. It's as if tires weren't grippy enough at very low speeds.

Has anybody else tried this?
This is probably one of the reasons why rolling over is so difficult even with tall cars.
When the car travels completely sideways, vehicle speed in the game is zero.
It looks like tire grip is proportional to game vehicle speed in some way.
 
Yesterday I was playing around with some cars, and I noticed that low speed tire physics probably need some serious improvement. It's currently impossible to start a car slowly without making the tires slip a bit. This is so noticeable that it's possible to hear a slipping sound. Also, on slopes, the car always drifts (in varying amounts) a bit to the lower side of the road when starting, no matter how slowly. It's as if tires weren't grippy enough at very low speeds.

Has anybody else tried this?
This is probably one of the reasons why rolling over is so difficult even with tall cars.
When the car travels completely sideways, vehicle speed in the game is zero.
It looks like tire grip is proportional to game vehicle speed in some way.

That is a problem of many racing games. But you are right, I noticed it, too.

No GT5 hasn't got the perfect driving model. You only need to manoeuvre at low-speeds to see the car drift sideways across the track. (BTW. Very low speed handling is actually a very good indication of how realistic the physics will be in a game.)

I think, it´s just half the truth. When you play the game, in how many situations it is important to drive at 20mph or less?
My assessment is, that developers do not implement the full working physics at very low speed on purpose. Just because the experience becomes important at much higher speeds and maybe they save ressources or whatever to get it fully working later. But just my opinion, maybe not the truth.
 
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Only once so far have I had the opinion that the physics of a car bordered "unrealistic", that being the oscillating snap hook tendencies of the Lambo in the Tuscana special race.
If I'm understanding you right, you're talking about a car's tendency to "swing" like a pendulum, centered on its direction of travel? I noticed this too. I guess GT4 was too understeery to display the effect, but Tourist Trophy actually did the same thing (a lot), for example if you slipped one of your wheels into the grass. It was quite laughable for a bike game.

All cars tend to want to point in the direction they're moving (which is why you want to stay on the throttle and minimize steering input when correcting oversteer in a FWD or AWD), but the way GT5 approaches it feels so artificial and "forced." Like a computer algorithm "dictating" which way the car should point based on arbitrary variables, rather than the end product of a weighted object suspended in a persistent physical environment by four rubber contact points.

I also noticed that not only is lift-off oversteer almost completely missing (making it difficult to alleviate mid-corner understeer), RWD cars also seem to "freeze" mid-corner if you go in sideways and then lift the throttle; no matter how much momentum you throw into it, and even without countersteer, the car will just seize up and eventually spin back forward, like the "oscillating" you mentioned. This is actually useful as a recovery trick in races -- many times in the AMG School events on the 'Ring, I regained control from severe, grass-caused slides simply by letting go of the throttle and steering. Wheeee, automatic recovery! :dopey: Useful, but unrealistic. All of the assists were off.

Futhermore, countersteer seems to be a "magical safety net" to catch just about anything. Without the handbrake, it's almost impossible to spin from rotating too quickly into a corner, though the game will gladly spin you the other way if you hang on to countersteer for too long.

This game could be more tailored to wheel players, most of them seem to like the physics.
For once, I believe this is true. I've never accepted the argument that a wheel is "necessary" to enjoy a sim (partly from my experiences with Live for Speed on a gamepad), but in GT5 I noticed the steering is just too sluggish on a DS3/Sixaxis for high-risk oversteer maneuvers. The in-game driver can't react fast enough, which leads to some unnecessary snap-overcorrection. In GT4 the hypersensitive snap-overcorrection was a fault even with the wheel (I tried it), but this time I have to admit it feels more like a controller issue.

This car pushed so bad at even that low cornering speed you had to turn it into the corner while breaking to get back on the throttle. I don't know about that one.
This relates to one question I have -- if GT5 is such a great sim, why is it faster to use the handbrake in pretty much every car to get the nose to tuck in?

I golded many of the license tests and events simply from using taps of the handbrake to get the car to rotate into the corner (in the manner I would otherwise expect it to turn). It reminded me of playing the new NFS:Hot Pursuit, and is hardly the mark of a true sim.

Yesterday I was playing around with some cars, and I noticed that low speed tire physics probably need some serious improvement. It's currently impossible to start a car slowly without making the tires slip a bit. This is so noticeable that it's possible to hear a slipping sound. Also, on slopes, the car always drifts (in varying amounts) a bit to the lower side of the road when starting, no matter how slowly. It's as if tires weren't grippy enough at very low speeds.
I noticed this while playing with handbrake skids. The results looked like hovercraft maneuvers, the car slipping and rotating around at impossibly slow speeds (with absolutely no "snap" to it or wobble of the suspension). Overall, the lack of "bite" in the tire model meant I got very little feedback from the wheels in my experience with the game.

--------------------------------------------------------

I had to return my rental copy tonight, but my impression after five days is that GT5 is by far the most realistic (and fun) Gran Turismo they've made yet...but has still has a way to go. The one thing it's got on its competitors is minute details (eg. fuel weight, tire wear/temp, engine/chassis wear), which hardly require a proper physics engine to be included. :indiff:
 
Are you people judging the physics with a control pad???

Because if you are, then your not getting the full picture....
There are definitely aids helping you with a control pad, even with all the usual aids turned off!
Firstly there is the speed sensitive steering lock limits. If GT5 didn't have this, it would like the Time Trial, twitchy. Then input smoothing obviously.
With a pad, you can also hold greater slip angles, it's like the game automaticly dials in the exact amount of countersteer for pad uses if you just shove it full left/right, since the steering lock limits are controlled by the game.
Drifting with a pad in GT5 is too damn easy!!!

Change to a steering wheel and all the gloves come off!
And turn ABS off, there is definitely some active stability help when ABS is on.
Once you turn it off, and set the proper brake bias, you'll notice the rear end of the car moving around alot more, even if you don't lock the brakes - greater weight transfer effects. Trail braking into corners will cause the car slide around
 
I'm using a wheel.
By the way, now that I think about it, the faulty low speed tire dynamics are most probably the reason why many cars with skinny tires are unable to climb steep hills. It mostly happen not because of lack of power, but lack of traction!
 
Firstly there is the speed sensitive steering lock limits. If GT5 didn't have this, it would like the Time Trial, twitchy. Then input smoothing obviously.
Those lock limits (ubiquitous in console racing games, and not an obstacle to good physics) don't preclude understeer, and don't affect overall grip availability. The input smoothing doesn't even seem to affect the animation of the front wheels (which, based on replays, seem to twitch back and forth with every flick the joystick), which leads me to wonder how the game calculates the physics of steering in the first place!

With a pad, you can also hold greater slip angles, it's like the game automaticly dials in the exact amount of countersteer for pad uses if you just shove it full left/right, since the steering lock limits are controlled by the game.
Drifting with a pad in GT5 is too damn easy!!!
So I noticed. I don't buy that you can hold "greater" slip angles, because that would require the physics to actually change based on the controller you use (not only unlikely, but counterproductive to Kazunori's insistence that the clutch + H-shifter be gimped to level the playing field with controller users), but it certainly makes things dead simple -- aside from overcorrection.

But why can't I send a car into a spin from throwing it too hard and giving it too much rotational inertia to catch? Even full-lock countersteer can't save everything, and full-lock means the controller shouldn't matter.

And turn ABS off, there is definitely some active stability help when ABS is on.
Once you turn it off, and set the proper brake bias, you'll notice the rear end of the car moving around alot more, even if you don't lock the brakes - greater weight transfer effects. Trail braking into corners will cause the car slide around
It took some modifications (no suspension adjustment needed), but I got most of the weight transfer effects I was looking for under braking, including the tail-out trail braking you mention. Yet lift-off oversteer was still broken.
 
Yesterday I was playing around with some cars, and I noticed that low speed tire physics probably need some serious improvement. It's currently impossible to start a car slowly without making the tires slip a bit. This is so noticeable that it's possible to hear a slipping sound. Also, on slopes, the car always drifts (in varying amounts) a bit to the lower side of the road when starting, no matter how slowly. It's as if tires weren't grippy enough at very low speeds.

Has anybody else tried this?
This is probably one of the reasons why rolling over is so difficult even with tall cars.
When the car travels completely sideways, vehicle speed in the game is zero.
It looks like tire grip is proportional to game vehicle speed in some way.

I have no problems launching my RUF BTR from a dead stop slowly with no tyre slip. I can post a video

But why can't I send a car into a spin from throwing it too hard and giving it too much rotational inertia to catch? Even full-lock countersteer can't save everything, and full-lock means the controller shouldn't matter.
Well with my Mclaren F1 I'm trying to be really smooth, and yet the thing will go into a spin or out of control really easily on Hard sports tyres, using a DFGT, if I so much as twitch the wheel a bit to quickly :)

GT5 on the pad is night and day different compared to on a wheel.
 
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I have no problems launching my RUF BTR from a dead stop slowly with no tyre slip. I can post a video
If you use the roof cam with a car with a quiet exhaust it will be clear that at low speed, tire grip seems to be not enough, as the usual but light tire skidding sound will be able to be heard.

If you choose Special Stage Route 5 you will begin close to the long, slightly banked corner leading to the main straight. You will be able to quickly test there both that and the "skidding/lateral drifting" occurring when starting from a dead stop on a slope very slowly.
 
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I find the physics to be greatly improved, but I'm using a pad now and i had the g25 on prologue. In prologue i never really bothered with drifting, because it was not realistic enough to waste my time on, especially drifting out of corners, the car actually feels like it has a lsd now! The only faults I would think are worth mentioning so far are the lack of lift off oversteer and the usual GT series low speed grip. Maybe these things are less obvious with a wheel and a clutch, but i'll have to wait until i have room for it to find out.
 
If you use the roof cam with a car with a quiet exhaust it will be clear that at low speed, tire grip seems to be not enough, as the usual but light tire skidding sound will be able to be heard.

If you choose Special Stage Route 5 you will begin close to the long, slightly banked the corner leading to the main straight. You will be able to quickly test there both that and the "skidding/lateral drifting" occurring when starting from a dead stop on a slope very slowly.

I tried a stock Eunos Roadster on that slope and tried to keep a very slow steady pace under 5kph, and there is some weird behaviour, like your doing a slow burnout or something. At least that's what it sounds like :)
 
If you use the roof cam with a car with a quiet exhaust it will be clear that at low speed, tire grip seems to be not enough, as the usual but light tire skidding sound will be able to be heard.

If you choose Special Stage Route 5 you will begin close to the long, slightly banked corner leading to the main straight. You will be able to quickly test there both that and the "skidding/lateral drifting" occurring when starting from a dead stop on a slope very slowly.

I had a car move sideways across the track while stationary, waiting at the start of a rally:crazy:
 
If you switch to the chase camera, you will also see visually that the car behaves weirdly.
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I feel it's all "connected".

Strange low speed tire physics, extremely difficult rollovers, handbrake dynamics, little to no grip on steep slopes with skinny tires/old underpowered cars. It's probably all related to the low speed tire model. It looks as if grip has been intentionally limited when the relative speed between the road and rotating tires approaches zero, and this causes some "glitches" that most people wouldn't notice in most situations.

It would have been interesting to check if that E3 demo where the old Fiat 500 easily rolled over had the same low speed tire behavior.
 
Is there a possibility they will improve physics through patches like for the Prologue? Don't get me wrong, i think they are great, in perfect conditions (good combination of car/track, abs off) it feels really good, not worse not better then what i'm used to from LFS..
 
Is there a possibility they will improve physics through patches like for the Prologue? Don't get me wrong, i think they are great, in perfect conditions (good combination of car/track, abs off) it feels really good, not worse not better then what i'm used to from LFS..
I sent a message regarding exactly that to Yamauchi via Twitter a few hours ago. I wonder if he will answer. Maybe chances will rise if more people ask him the same thing, even something in basic english, like "Will driving physics be improved in future updates?".
 
If you switch to the chase camera, you will also see visually that the car behaves weirdly.
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I feel it's all "connected".

Strange low speed tire physics, extremely difficult rollovers, handbrake dynamics, little to no grip on steep slopes with skinny tires/old underpowered cars. It's probably all related to the low speed tire model. It looks as if grip has been intentionally limited when the relative speed between the road and rotating tires approaches zero, and this causes some "glitches" that most people wouldn't notice in most situations.

It would have been interesting to check if that E3 demo where the old Fiat 500 easily rolled over had the same low speed tire behavior.

Playing the older demo of GT5 felt even more slick than it does now. I remeber just reversing and trying to get a Nascar going forward again took ages in the CES demo builds. And grass was extremely slippery on Nurbrurgring, felt like wet grass

If anything GT5 feels much more connected to the road than the Time Trial and the older demos.
 
I sent a message regarding exactly that to Yamauchi via Twitter a few hours ago. I wonder if he will answer. Maybe chances will rise if more people ask him the same thing, even something in basic english, like "Will driving physics be improved in future updates?".

Sent him that just now :) I'm starting to think this Twitter thing isn't working for me, still haven't recieved any 'retweets' :( :D
 
Playing the older demo of GT5 felt even more slick than it does now. I remeber just reversing and trying to get a Nascar going forward again took ages in the CES demo builds. And grass was extremely slippery on Nurbrurgring, felt like wet grass

If anything GT5 feels much more connected to the road than the Time Trial and the older demos.

I've tested this again a bit in GT5 and I found out that the strange things happen only at indicated speeds below 5 Km/h. Once the car speed reaches 5 Km/h, the behavior instantaneously disappears. You can even see (with the chase cam) the transition between the "low-speed physics" and the "normal physics".

There's something wrong and it looks it's there for a specific reason.
Interesting and disappointing at the same time...

Again, this is quite visible in the banked corner before the main straight in SSR5.
 
For once, I believe this is true. I've never accepted the argument that a wheel is "necessary" to enjoy a sim (partly from my experiences with Live for Speed on a gamepad), but in GT5 I noticed the steering is just too sluggish on a DS3/Sixaxis for high-risk oversteer maneuvers. The in-game driver can't react fast enough, which leads to some unnecessary snap-overcorrection. In GT4 the hypersensitive snap-overcorrection was a fault even with the wheel (I tried it), but this time I have to admit it feels more like a controller issue.

no problems with a proper wheel G25 or higher (not sure which ones from Fanatec) but i do remember getting GT5p and sitting down with my wheel a that time .....DFP....and wondering why i couldnt control drifts like the youtube videos at the time. Went and got G25 and all was fixed, turns out the DFP's FF or self centering was way too slow (letting go of wheel to catch big slides did nothing) and also had tendancy to load up way too much just of centre !?

G25 s better pedals + H-pattern + proper race seat was just pure sim heaven, my cuz's G27 is even better! Raced LFS religiously for around 14 months..........which brings me to your quote enjoying LFS with controller????seriously???? True physics of a car game can only be enjoyed with a proper wheel setup....fullstop!

Re AMG school physics experiance, I too had the pleasure of arriving way too fast at the right hander before you accelerate up to the Karrasell, and throwing the 300 sl (no ABS all aids off) into a slide which at that speed should have sent me into the armco backwards at 100 kph....but as you described (all controls off) the car caught itself and carried on as if i had just fluked the biggest save of the year! 👎

P.s wasnt the 300 sl supposed to be a bit more difficult to drive (in real life reports) ???? swing axle rear end ????
 
As far as lift off oversteer goes, it's definitely in the game, but more obvious in some cars.

With a wheel, I tried a RUF BTR, stock on medium sports tyres on a custom track.
Constant throttle on a sweeper, let go of throttle aburptly, car goes into a spin...
Being an RR you sorta expect that :)

Turn and brake hard and it also spins, more so with ABS off

I'll post some vids later
 
G25 s better pedals + H-pattern + proper race seat was just pure sim heaven, my cuz's G27 is even better! Raced LFS religiously for around 14 months..........which brings me to your quote enjoying LFS with controller????seriously???? True physics of a car game can only be enjoyed with a proper wheel setup....fullstop!
Believe me, I've had a gaming wheel of some type or another since my parents bought me my first (a Thrustmaster with hand pedals, no floor unit) around 1997 or so. It was awesome for The Need for Speed and Interstate 76. :dopey: After that broke, I had one of those awkward InterAct things with the plastic "wings" you were supposed to stick under your legs. Its low price was about its only good feature.

For years I had a trusty Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro Digital 2 (never played a NASCAR game with it :lol: ). No FFB, but LFS was first released during that time and I learned how to become quite proficient with it. Best non-FFB wheel I ever used. A friend of mine sold me his DFP after he got bored with GT4, and after that broke I upgraded to my current G25.

I don't use my desktop all that much anymore, so I leave the G25 hooked up and mounted to the desk. I do use it for LFS (and nothing else, really -- no console game is worth the trouble). The point I was making is that even LFS doesn't really "need" a wheel.

Re AMG school physics experiance, I too had the pleasure of arriving way too fast at the right hander before you accelerate up to the Karrasell, and throwing the 300 sl (no ABS all aids off) into a slide which at that speed should have sent me into the armco backwards at 100 kph....but as you described (all controls off) the car caught itself and carried on as if i had just fluked the biggest save of the year! 👎

P.s wasnt the 300 sl supposed to be a bit more difficult to drive (in real life reports) ???? swing axle rear end ????
So I'm not the only one! It felt positively superheroic when I did it the first time, but not at all believable. Not that hard to recreate, either. I ran into it at the left-hand kink following the uphill coming out of Fuchsröhre, before Adenauer-Forst.

I wondered about the 300SL's suspension too. I guess I decided geometry-based suspension modelling (like LFS) was too much to expect from a console sim, much less one with "1000" cars, but you'd think they would have at least cranked up the "oversteer" a couple notches on that car.
 
As far as lift off oversteer goes, it's definitely in the game, but more obvious in some cars.

With a wheel, I tried a RUF BTR, stock on medium sports tyres on a custom track.
Constant throttle on a sweeper, let go of throttle aburptly, car goes into a spin...
Being an RR you sorta expect that :)

Turn and brake hard and it also spins, more so with ABS off

I'll post some vids later


Could you also do this test/video?

- Select a RWD car with a relatively tall 1st gear
- Start on Special Stage Route 5
- Select the chase camera
- Stop in the middle of the last corner of SSR5
- Turn the wheel to one side and start very slowly. The car should oddly drift sideways a bit.

Do you notice that the strange "low speed drift" immediately stops at 5 Km/h? This is also reflected in the wheel force feedback.
 
From my point of view, I like more the Physics of Gran Turismo 4 than the latest Granturismo installment and im not saying this because Gran Turismo 4 have better physics than Gran Turismo 5, but it seems very unstable specially on long right hander in monza you can really notice it, even with the most sophisticated car like f1 or x1, things like that you move left and right it goes very unstable which isn't supposed to happen. unless their is a car infront of you
 
I wondered about the 300SL's suspension too. I guess I decided geometry-based suspension modelling (like LFS) was too much to expect from a console sim, much less one with "1000" cars, but you'd think they would have at least cranked up the "oversteer" a couple notches on that car.
sorry if i sound like a fanboy....but LFS got the physics near perfect:tup: Is it so hard to get geometry based suspension modelling implemented on a console ? Even a generic multilink rear with a Mcpherson strut front for eg (just input know manufacture settings/details) can be made to feel right and behave a certain way......love the way you can get a FR car to roll into its outside rear tire and drive it fast with a hint of 4 wheel drift in LFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW the 300sl needs a bit more slide for sure and what is it with the funny muscle car oversteer......seems like they have an open diff or something (didnt they come with posi traks and detroit lockers and stuff?)

Enough ranting from me .....i should just drive GT5 again as I havent touched it in over 2 weeks (stupid life got in the way:crazy:)
 

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